Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Fudgie]

Tyrion is a great character. I love that he's very complex. Overall, he's a good guy, deep down, from a moral aspect. What I find interesting is that he's seen as lowly, drunken, and less worthy in the eyes of others but, IMO, he's a far better person than the lot of them. He didn't do anything to Sansa when he married her. And he's blamed for killing (someone, I won't say) because he is an easy scapegoat. I feel bad for his character because I think he gets a lot of s__t projected on him by the other characters.

[Blue Spiral]

I feel bad for his character because I think he gets a lot of s__t projected on him by the other characters.

 

Just like me, Fudgie. Just like me.

[Fudgie]

Just like me, Fudgie. Just like me.

 

I know Blue, that's why I said that.

 

The problems of the world don't stem from people like you who don't hurt others and just don't fit the mold, or "script" if you want to call it that.

[Blue Spiral]

I know Blue, that's why I said that.

 

The problems of the world don't stem from people like you who don't hurt others and just don't fit the mold, or "script" if you want to call it that.

 

Thank you, I greatly appreciate that. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, most of the women on ENA seem to think that I'm some sort of villain.

 

You're probably the only woman (and very likely the only person) I'll talk to today. So, uh...hi. OK, that's enough social interaction for one day...

[Fudgie]

hi....haha

I definitely don't think you're a villain. Villains are those who manipulate people to do something that is not in their best interests, to benefit the villain. You don't strike me as that.

 

I hope you have a great Saturday and that it's really enjoyable for you!

[Jean-Luc]

The woman that I talk with at the coffee shop is trying to "help" me. Since I've been single and not looking for the last ten years (the first time I told her that, her eyes got really wide), she's decided that I need advice, and this advice primarily consists of my apparent need to "improve" in various areas. (Sound familiar, male ENA posters?) I appreciate the sentiment, of course, but it's starting to get annoying. On the other hand, it's extremely interesting, as well.

 

She has a theory that, in order to get women, men need to be at least two of the following three things: tough, ambitious/successful, and emotionally available. Since I'm not tough (which she diplomatically phrased as "Well, you've never been in the military, and, y'know, you haven't had any ranch jobs or anything, so..."), I apparently need to focus on the other two qualities. I said something along the lines of, "What if I'm basically happy with the way I am now, and don't want to change?" She had trouble wrapping her mind around this, to say the least. Many (most?) women seem to be shocked at the idea that heterosexual men can do things for reasons that have nothing to do with women.

 

She continued to insist that I should be more emotionally available for what basically amounts to general health reasons. "If you could just, like, be more obvious about what you're feeling, maybe women would get you more." She asked me what I was feeling at that exact moment...and I have to admit, I messed with her a little. I thought about it for about five or ten seconds and finally said, completely deadpan, "I feel...hungry." In all seriousness, I don't know: sometimes I feel like I'm far more emotional than most men, and sometimes I feel pretty dead inside. I honestly can't tell if I'm an emotional wreck or just sort of numbly chugging along.

 

When exactly has opening up to what you're feeling ever worked out for men? Very rarely.

 

In this modern age it seems its all about what women want, not the men.

[Blue Spiral]

hi....haha

I definitely don't think you're a villain. Villains are those who manipulate people to do something that is not in their best interests, to benefit the villain. You don't strike me as that.

 

I'm not evil...I'm just drawn that way.

 

I hope you have a great Saturday and that it's really enjoyable for you!

 

Thank you! I've had a very enjoyable weekend.

 

When exactly has opening up to what you're feeling ever worked out for men? Very rarely.

 

Yeah, that's one of the real gender paradoxes. They want you to open up...and when you do, you seem weak, and they aren't as attracted to you. Using words, Deedee told me that she wanted a more emotionally-open guy, but, using actions, she left me for a guy that was the exact opposite. I've seen that same pattern play out countless times.

 

In this modern age it seems its all about what women want, not the men.

 

Indeed:

 

Dating--women get attention and ego-boosting and free meals upfront; men may or may not get sex.

 

Marriage--women get an entire day of attention and celebration, and they also gain the ability to legally/financially nuke a man's life; men get absolutely nothing.

 

I sometimes joke with women about flipping the script. "Well, how about this: we have sex, and then I see if I want to take you out to dinner?" They don't like it when the tables are turned, for some reason...

[annie24]

I totally disagree with that - I don't think it's easier being a woman at all, many examples of what that is. There is not even an Equal rights amendment that guarantees women equal rights as men in the US!! It's 2016!!!

 

 

 

And look on the front page of ENA today - a woman on tinder is offering a man sex and he is wondering what is wrong with her. Because society is so conditioned that if there is a woman who says she wants sex, that there must be something wrong with her or she's a scammer or she's damaged goods.

[annie24]

PS - Try to also remember that men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. We're taking a risk by dating men, spending time alone with men, getting in a car with men, etc... I think Louis CK does a bit on this. I've been sexually assaulted, most women have either been sexually assaulted or raped, or know someone who has, it's unfortunately quite a common thing. To go have sex with a man before we've even had dinner with him (or spent 2 hours in public speaking with him) doesn't sound like the smartest thing. To have sex with him or even spend time alone with him in private before we have gotten to know him better is risky and honestly scary.

[Blue Spiral]

I totally disagree with that - I don't think it's easier being a woman at all, many examples of what that is.

 

I'm strictly speaking in terms of sex/relationship stuff, not overall social dynamics.

 

We're taking a risk by dating men, spending time alone with men, getting in a car with men, etc...

 

If we're so horrible, then avoid us. A small-but-growing number of men are avoiding women (or avoiding having relationships with them) out of concern for their financial safety, so I don't see any reason why you can't do the same thing for physical safety. Win-win!

 

I'm more sympathetic than most men would be to the physical danger aspect--as a socially-awkward person, I have to be extremely careful in social situations, because misunderstandings can get me in trouble--but, with all due respect, our entire society is built around the wants and needs of women.

[maker]

Annie, thank you for reminding all of us men that it is the current year. And many examples, which have somehow shrunk to two non-examples. It is debatable if you even need something as an ERA, considering that women are equal under the law, except for the parts where they have advantages. To provide some food for thought:

- more lenient sentences for crimes

- almost guaranteed custody of children in case of a divorce

- abuse of the "battered wife" concept (for example people v. Yaklich)

- immunity from conscription

- men being by default arrested in cases of domestic violence, regardless of who is bein attacked

- vastly better support system for abused women

 

If you feel threatened and at risk while being around men solely because of not having the same upper body strength, by all means, avoid them. How have 'most' women been sexually assaulted or raped is beyond me, unless we somehow redefine the word most.

 

In short, it is easy to defend a clearly biased viewpoint through the use of nebulous terms and by appealing to emotions instead of presenting evidence.

 

BS, it's time for the other villain to join in.

[Blue Spiral]

Very good points, maker. We can't let ourselves get upset by it, though. I try to enjoy my life regardless of what women do or don't do.

 

It's been said that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Thankfully, bicycles don't need fish, either.

 

Also, re: villains, we can be the Legion of Doom! I'm trying to decide if I want to be the Heath Ledger version of the Joker or Watchmen's Ozymandias...

[Fudgie]

As a white, American woman who is not dirt poor, I think I have it pretty damn good. I don't envy men. Did women always have it good? Absolutely not. We used to be considered property, we didn't have control over our reproductive systems, etc. I don't want to go back to that, no way! But right now is a difficult time to be a man, I think. Lots of casual sex and both sexes want it but still, ALL of the reliable birth control methods (I am not counting condoms because those things break/slip) are not able to be controlled by the man at all.

I'm looking forward to the "financial abortion" system that they are reportedly getting set up in Sweden. I think that will make it more fair for men.

I also can't wait for reversible vasectomies.

 

But anyway...

 

I've gotten in some arguments with a couple of my female friends. They think that they are victims of a system rigged against them. I don't get that mindset. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship - what does that say about men? NOTHING. It means that I was with an emotionally abusive man. That's it. Not everyone is that way. There are a___holes of every sex out there. Everytime ANYONE dates, they are putting themselves in danger, physically and emotionally. You could get assaulted. You could get your feelings hurt. You could get mugged. When you open up yourself intimately to another person, that's a risk you must assume and that goes for both sexes.

 

I don't think the victim mindset helps anyone. I refuse to let someone tell me that I am oppressed. I am not. Women have the upper hand right now. I may be able to wear a dress but I've always worn the pants. We have the most choice when it comes to clothes, careers, and lifestyles. If I want to be a career women, I can. If I want to be a stay-at-home wife, I can. Who has pressured me the most to consider children? Female friends and female family friends. Who has pressured me to put on make-up? Women (my female boss told me I should on Friday, and even told me what color - I've never worn make-up!).

 

It's high f__ing time that women stop trying to tear each other down and stop relishing the victim role. It is not empowering. It is not good.

 

sorry for rant.

 

Also, Ozymandias in Watchmen is not a villain! He is a utilitarian hero. He killed millions to save billions.

[maker]

Blue, we can pick a fitting name for our group later but I definitely want to be the evil scientist. Kinda meshes with what I do, plus I've always wanted to be this quirky guy in a stained lab coat, ordering henchmen around.

 

Now for a slightly more serious bit.

 

Fudgie, if this venue would allow it, I'd applaud your post. All joking aside, that victim mindset is the real issue. Some of the downright made up "problems" and "hardships" only make it worse. We've created a world where it is cool to gather oppression points and climb the pyramid of woes in order to be patted on the back as the most oppressed living soul. World, where people advocate for some form of thought police or just nice, comfortable echo chambers where no discourse is allowed.

Women have opportunities, men have opportunities. BOTH women and men get sexually assaulted and raped.

[Blue Spiral]

As simplistic as it sounds, I personally think that we should help everyone. I don't care about the gender or race or religion--if there's unfairness, deal with it, and let the chips fall where they may. If men are getting screwed in divorces, deal with it. If women are being harassed by idiots, deal with it. There are absolutely situations where people are victims, but the modern "____ is a victim all the time" viewpoint is as inaccurate and generalizing as the old (and stupid) "_____ is superior all the time" one. The "men are always better" crap of the '50s is as ridiculous as the "women are always powerless" crap we're getting now. Let's treat people as individuals, please, and not as groups. That's where you get into the ugly racism/tribalism stuff.

 

p.s.: Ozymandias may have been right, but I'd struggle to describe him as a hero, due to the whole mass-murder thing. Also, I think that heroes should be competent, and the ending seems to hint that his solution may be short-lived.

[annie24]

Mine is not a victim mentality but just pointing out that women don't have it easier. I think you're totally not looking at both sides of the story when you said this:

Dating--women get attention and ego-boosting and free meals upfront; men may or may not get sex.

 

Marriage--women get an entire day of attention and celebration, and they also gain the ability to legally/financially nuke a man's life; men get absolutely nothing.

 

I sometimes joke with women about flipping the script. "Well, how about this: we have sex, and then I see if I want to take you out to dinner?" They don't like it when the tables are turned, for some reason...

 

Married men are also paid higher than their single male counter parts. Men get many social benefits from marriage. Married men live longer than their single counterparts. Many men do desire children and a family. It's not all about nuking a man's life by getting married to him. I think that's the narrow view point here.

 

As for the sexual assault/rape statistics - depending on the survey, you will see that 1/4 to 1/6 of women have been raped - therefore, it's either you, or you know someone who has. That isn't to say I don't like men or don't trust men, just saying you have to be careful and having sex with someone before you get to know them in public (male or female) is a risky adventure.

 

Fudgie - while I appreciate that you are happy with your situation, please remember that these are very recent turns of events, historically. It wasn't until the 1970s that women were allowed to have credit cards without their husbands' permission, not until the 1990s that women could not be fired for getting pregnant. And it wasn't until just a few years ago that it was made into law that women couldn't be charged more for health insurance than men. And obviously, less than 100 years ago, women couldn't vote. I think things have gotten WAAAAY better since my mom was my age and light years ahead of when my grandma was my age. There has been a lot of progress, but we're still not there yet.

[Blue Spiral]

Mine is not a victim mentality but just pointing out that women don't have it easier.

 

And I think that women do have it easier. I'm not saying you have it easier in every area, but you have it easier in a lot of areas, IMHO more than men. Particularly in the one area that I really care about--getting sex and sex-related customs.

 

Married men are also paid higher than their single male counter parts. Men get many social benefits from marriage. Married men live longer than their single counterparts. Many men do desire children and a family. It's not all about nuking a man's life by getting married to him. I think that's the narrow view point here.

 

It may not be all about nuking a man's life, but that's certainly an option that you'd like to keep in your back pocket, no? Or are you an advocate for more male-friendly divorce/child-support laws?

 

I don't think that most men care about "social benefits". I personally don't see any tangible benefits, outside of things that shouldn't be happening in the first place (single men being discriminated against in the workplace) and claims found in hotly-debated studies. We often hear that "married men are happier", but the real message is "men whose marriages are still together are happier". Married men who got divorced aren't included in those sorts of surveys. I'd love to see a pollster ask "Do you regret your decision to get married?" to both married men and divorced men; I think that the answers would be fascinating.

 

Look, I'm an equalist (though I've had a lot of men outright call me a feminist, if you can believe it). I'm glad that women are finally being treated as equals, and I do agree that there are some legal areas where progress still needs to be made. But in other legal areas, and certain cultural ones, I personally think that the pendulum has swung too far.

[Fudgie]

annie,

 

Unless both maternity and paternity leave are offered, I can't get behind equal pay for women and men. Vast majority of women have children and I don't think it's fair to demand that they get the same pay when most of women are going to spend a significant time (paid) out of the workforce and men don't get that opportunity at all because of their sex. Can't have it both ways!. I believe that there should be maternity and paternity leave but unfortunately, there is not and I don't hear too many people advocating for it either. I am currently undecided on the healthcare bit, as I support a public option, so I don't really like the idea of health insurance in the first place.

 

Like BS, I do believe in equality but my issue with modern feminism is that it's not about equality. It's about perks and "breaks" for women, treating them like an oppressed class, and I do not agree with this. I think women should be held to the same standards. Currently, they are not.

 

If we expand the definition of "sexual assault" to men who have been sperm-jacked (that is, told by the woman to trust her, that she was on birth control, and then she intentionally got pregnant), and we had a way to reliably poll people on this, then I think you will find very, very high, startling rates of sexual assault among men. Unfortunately, most people who do this would never admit to it but we all know it happens. I can think of 3 specific cases in my life, personally, where I've known the couple and I'm fairly certain the man was sperm-jacked. All women claimed they were on birth control, were in a relationship, and asked the man not to use condoms because "don't worry, there won't be an accident, if there is, we can abort/adopt out/etc." and then within a short amount of time, baby appeared. The women are ecstatic, the guy is not.

 

But my greater point is, I think right now as a woman, right now, as a white woman in America, I definitely have it good and I wouldn't want to be a man these days. I don't see how they have it better, right now, I just don't. In the past? Yes. Right now? No.

[itsallgrand]

In what respects exactly is it easier for women?

 

There are some good points made. But if we are talking about equality, it should include the role that objectifying women has in all this. And women aren't sinless in that either. We still do have women who use sex and sexuality as a currency. And we have men who are willing to buy that.

 

Until that is addressed, as a society, I don't think we will see true equality any time soon.

[Fudgie]

Women and men are objectified all the time by scumbags. Women are judged only according to their looks/age/attractiveness/etc. If they fall out of favor in this regard, sometimes they are chucked. Men are judged only by their wallets and ability to provide. If they don't "stack up" and follow a masculine gender role, sometimes they are chucked. I don't think that is a matter of equality, just that there are ass__les out there.

[itsallgrand]

It's a lot more than a few a holes out there. There are laws which treat men and women differently based on their sex. Laws that support man as wallet, women as sexual vessel. It permeates society.

 

I do think it is relevant to equality regarding gender.

[Fudgie]

I think the laws should be changed where applicable, yes. But people objectifying one another on an individual basis, lots of people are as__les. I don't really let it bother me anymore because I know there's nothing I can do about it anyway. All I can do is only associate socially with people who aren't that way. And there are a lot of them out there, but you have to sift through a lot of muck.

[Jean-Luc]

Women and men are objectified all the time by scumbags. Women are judged only according to their looks/age/attractiveness/etc. If they fall out of favor in this regard, sometimes they are chucked. Men are judged only by their wallets and ability to provide. If they don't "stack up" and follow a masculine gender role, sometimes they are chucked. I don't think that is a matter of equality, just that there are ass__les out there.

 

I keep hearing all the time over the past few years that there are less and less men willing to approach women. Misunderstandings and miscommunication are at the heart of this. Any little slight towards a lot of women and they put you into the category of creep, stalker, pathetic, scumbag, loser, unmanly etc. I myself have never been able to approach women and for some reason have been sometimes labeled either beta male, homosexual, or not manly. Not being able to approach people doesn't really equate to being unmanly or not being a man or mature adult in my book, but a lot of women, and people in general for that matter, tend to think like this. If you can't go up and speak to a complete stranger who you don't know what kind of person they may be, especially in this day in age, somehow that's the only thing that matters about you and you're not worth their time. This I think is one of the main reasons why modern dating and relationships are what they are......screwed up for a good majority of people. If you don't adhere to societal expectations for being a man, well then you deserve to be alone apparently because you're just not good enough. Never mind the hundred other qualities you could have as a person. Understanding, hardworking, empathetic, supportive, intelligent, caring, giving, motivated, etc. All qualities of a potentially great partner and great provider for children if that's the route you want to take.

 

I often find people employ what is called system 1 thinking in psychology, and especially characteristics and biases of it such as WYSIATI(what you see is all there is). This is what makes first impressions matter so much and also why people often go based on their perceived truths rather than what is actually objectively true. Making assumptions about a person's entire character based on shallow things and assumptions doesn't do anybody any favors.

[Fudgie]

Agree, shyguy. Although overall, admittedly, I like OLD. It allows you weed out a lot of people who you're not compatible with. If you have a lot of deal-breakers, then it's easier to filter people out based on those than IRL. Then again, I'm an oddity, because I find the vast majority of people to be average-looking (myself included) so I've not declined people based on that (Im really not picky in that regard), but I'll not talk to them for other reasons that people may find petty but to me, they signal an incompatibility.

 

Overall, I've seen a number of my female friends pass up on guys for (what I felt to be) superficial reasons and these guys seemed pretty compatible but I don't know, I don't get it. I'm not focused on looks and I don't want kids so maybe they are zoning in on something that I'm not.

[Blue Spiral]

When I was younger, I didn't approach women because I was terrified of them and extremely shy.

 

In later years, I didn't approach them because I don't think that the whole thing is worth the effort.

 

Now, I don't approach them for the reason that Shyguy mentioned: I'm afraid that some easily-triggered woman will freak the **** out and accuse me of being a stalker or something. I'm socially awkward even in normal circumstances, and talking to some stranger in public...yeah, that could be a disaster.

 

I think it's great that women have broken out of their old gender roles, and I look forward to men being able to do the same. Now, when we do this, it's going to make some women uncomfortable, and it'll mean that they have to put in more effort--which is the same thing that we had to do when the shoe was on the other foot. But I'm sure they'll be more than happy to accommodate us...!