Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Fudgie]

I do find it upsetting that many gender roles still stand for men while ones for women are tossed away. We get freedom and men don't. It's really unfair.

 

I don't really believe that in the US, there's such thing as male privilege, not anymore.

 

The problem is that you/men can't really follow suit in escaping gender roles because the vast majority of women still subscribe to them in the sense that they want their men to fit a lot of them. How can you be expected to overthrow gender roles when the only way you'll get real female companionship and such is if you follow them?

 

I don't envy you guys.

[Blue Spiral]

Unfortunately, too many women want to have it both ways, alternating between modern and traditional. They complain about antiquated gender notions at work...and then let their boyfriend pay for dinner. They want a modern, sensitive guy...but if he shows weakness, they're turned off.

[Batya33]

I do find it upsetting that many gender roles still stand for men while ones for women are tossed away. We get freedom and men don't. It's really unfair.

 

I don't really believe that in the US, there's such thing as male privilege, not anymore.

 

The problem is that you/men can't really follow suit in escaping gender roles because the vast majority of women still subscribe to them in the sense that they want their men to fit a lot of them. How can you be expected to overthrow gender roles when the only way you'll get real female companionship and such is if you follow them?

 

I don't envy you guys.

 

I think it depends on the individual dynamic and I think that romantic relationships are inherently different from professional relationships - including in how finances are handled. Of course I'm going to "let" someone pay for dinner if he/she insists and if I'm otherwise comfortable with the context (i.e. not because of an improper quid pro quo). My husband still holds doors for me and did the same for my mother when we visited her this past week and I hold just as many heavy packages as him with the difference that he, as a thoughtful person, will not let me carry the same as he does because he is bigger/stronger. That is true of many men/women (not all but many). So, sometimes it is practical and sometimes "chivalry" or tradition or a mix of both.

 

I think it also depends on why the man is "pursuing" the woman -if for casual sex, that has a different dynamic than for dating, a potential relationship, casual dating,etc. No one size fits all.

 

I chose to exit the work force for some years once I had a child because even part time in my career would have been too many hours/too unpredictable plus I did not want ANY special privileges at work just because I was a mother -that would have made me uncomfortable. I did ask for certain privileges when I was pregnant for medical reasons, just like any person with a temporary disability would have done. They were given to me easily and without resentment - the opposite (i.e. sometimes working from home, taking time off for extra medical appointments, etc.). That is a gender role and I think it's perfectly fair.

[JamesT2]

Hitting on a lot could be considered 'trying too hard'

Playing distant and busy: 'not interested'.

 

I also believe it's hard to be a man in the 21st century. America or not. Except for some more ehh traditional and conservative societies, but those are, on the other side of the coin terrible for women.

 

Hard to fit in. As BS said, we're all individuals.

[Fudgie]

Pretty much, Batya. Being a woman is way better than a woman. We get a lot of concessions. People usually treat us better. This is why I laugh when I've talked to a couple of my friends (female) who swear up and down that they are oppressed as white American women, LOL, I'm sorry, it's just ridiculous.

 

I don't have any advice really, just sympathy. I wish things were different, I really do.

 

Even it meant potential shift for me, and not in my favor. I would be okay with that if it meant true equality, just like I'd be okay paying more in taxes if I knew it wouldn't get p___sed down the toilet.

[IAmFCA]

Having spent 30 years in a male-dominated environment in several respects, and choosing to focus on gender as an area of personal interest for longer than that, I offer the following observations:

- white, male privilege still exists, I have seen it on multiple occasions. class and race have impact as well as gender.

- women are occupying an ever-increasing number of leadership roles, visibly. "social" corporate events still are male dominated when mixed gender participants. This is changing. women only events are rare and offer a fascinating compare/contrast.

- men are absolutely ready to advocate for an expanded role, socially. To step up and take responsibility for administrative management, home management, child care, social calendar management. Women earned corporate opportunities by proving our value and staying after it even when it was uncomfortable; men are slowly doing the same. change will come if men want these roles available to them and expected of them as a potential life choice.

- in dating, i find every range of behavior. to focus on who pays feels petty to me; the bigger dynamic is the same as it is in the corporate world. If you have asked for my time, then make it worth my while. Host me, entertain me, educate me. If I have asked for your time, I will do the same. If you insist on paying either way, I am honored and complimented that you want me to feel cared for and that you are using paying the check as a way to do that.

- in marriage or similar, how one dates is an inaccurate indicator of how one attaches for the long haul. what does this mean: the man who pays for me all the time is making his intentions clear. I am honored by that. the man i choose may communicate through other means, and if he does, paying for me isn't necessary. I am not for sale, therefore, who I pick for me isn't based on his ability to pay. It is an irrelevant trait except for the meaning placed on it by the people involved. For example: If you pay and then are unhappy about having paid, I will dump you for being passive aggressive. If you pay and want something from me, I will dump you for treating me like something you buy in a store. If you make reservations at a 4-star restaurant and don't pay I will dump you for being rude. If you say, "how about we split, I will get the tickets and you pick up dinner?" I am fine with that and appreciate your clarity. If you then kiss me and tell me you'd like to see me again, your intentions are clear and the fact that we went 50/50 is irrelevant.

- other gender roles such as doors chairs etc. This is manners. The over-arching rule about manners is that they are habits learned to protect us when our instincts are unclear. The over-arching principle is grace: to always help our company feel comfortable. Whoever opens the door is simply being kind, and kindness is always right. My date will open the door for me because he is kind, and because he wants me to feel that he is looking out for my welfare. I will show him I look out for him in other ways, but sometimes will open the door for him as well. When dating, I enjoy the old school training because it enhances the difference between us.I want a man, I want to experience him as Other. I want him doing things for me that I do not do for him. It reminds me that we are enjoying our other-ness. In a work setting, we open doors for each other, whatever is easiest, because we are a team looking out for one another.

 

So, in sum:

- Yes, all individuals "should" be afforded the freedom to pursue whatever interests they choose and earn, at home and at work. People get overwhelmed and sort people based on their expectations, so it is up to each individual to withstand others' inaccurate expectations. Each of us makes the world better when we live our choices publicly as a reminder to others of the variety in each of us and among us. Live loud and proud (even if quietly and gently so). Share your story. Be the example.

- Who pays only matters if we treat ourselves as objects. Pay when you want. Don't pay, otherwise. Easy.

[IAmFCA]

Pretty much, Batya. Being a woman is way better than a woman. We get a lot of concessions. People usually treat us better. This is why I laugh when I've talked to a couple of my friends (female) who swear up and down that they are oppressed as white American women, LOL, I'm sorry, it's just ridiculous.

 

I don't have any advice really, just sympathy. I wish things were different, I really do.

 

Even it meant potential shift for me, and not in my favor. I would be okay with that if it meant true equality, just like I'd be okay paying more in taxes if I knew it wouldn't get p___sed down the toilet.

 

Sorry, no. Men and women both are held to standards that limit the people who differ from the statistical norm. Socially and professionally. Anyone who strays from the main path will have some explaining to do in order to help others understand. Speaking only of white Americans, for the moment: The laws have always enabled men to choose whatever path they please. Women have not had flexibility in the legal system. Laws are more equitable now, in many instances, and both genders are favored or disadvantaged, in different situations.

 

Example: A CEO who is among my favorite people on the planet recently gave an employee a raise after another colleague advocated on her behalf. He had refused to raise her salary previously. Once her husband died, he increased her pay because, as he said, now she needed to support herself. He didn't even realize it was discriminatory thinking; he just wanted to help, once he perceived a need.

[Fudgie]

I don't know, my experience has been in both my schooling, career, and social life that I'm far less limited than males my age. I am never judged for partaking in masculine OR feminine activites, both are acceptable for women. Not so for men. I don't feel the legal system is skewed towards women. If you look at custody issues, it's usually the woman who gets primary custody and the man gets visitation: this is default. If he wants joint, he has to go to court and fight for it, even if he was always a good dad.

 

I understand that other peoples' experience may be different but that is mine and I just won't have people tell me that I am oppressed when I am not.

 

As for the boss story, my boss does the same thing. I have coworkers who are my age and younger who have children. It is known that I do not have children and I am unmarried as well. I usually work more holidays because (and I quote): "You don't have kids but so-and-so does so, you know..."

 

My boss is female.

[Batya33]

"they are habits learned to protect us when our instincts are unclear"

 

I really don't mean to hijack or divert -but this is one of the best, if not the best definitions I've ever seen for manners. It's interesting you write "protect" because I'm not sure all manners protect us -some do, and some exist simply to make others feel comfortable. Certainly "protect" as in, in frustrating situations it's a reminder to stay polite.

 

Fudgie -ITIC and I are from the same generation so maybe we've just had different experiences. I too worked in a male-dominated field. I did not feel oppressed. I did experience some gender-based discrimination. I never felt privileged based on gender, ever.

[Blue Spiral]

- white, male privilege still exists,

 

Could you please send some of it my way? I definitely appreciate not being shot by cops for Standing/Driving While White, but, beyond that, I don't think it's ever helped me.

 

I took one of my nieces to the park, last year...and you would not believe the suspicious looks I got from the various moms there. There are a growing number of spaces in society where men are simply not welcome.

 

- Who pays only matters if we treat ourselves as objects. Pay when you want. Don't pay, otherwise. Easy.

 

It's "easy" for men if they're happy being involuntarily celibate, yeah. Otherwise, most of them are stuck paying. (Not me, though, because I go to the mat on this particular issue.)

 

I just got back from the store. I saw so many attractive women there...and knew that I had no chance with them. I feel very depressed right now. I'm reasonably happy with my FWBs, but I'll never get the sort of women that taller, better-paid, social-skills-having guys will get.

[annie24]

I took one of my nieces to the park, last year...and you would not believe the suspicious looks I got from the various moms there. There are a growing number of spaces in society where men are simply not welcome.

 

It sounds like some kind of awful gender biases these. They're thinking maybe you're a predator or something, which is awful and shameful when it's a good thing that a family member is watching his relative for the day. On the other hand, my friend says that when her husband takes their daughter grocery shopping, women come up to him to tell him what a good father he is. (But do they come up to my friend and tell her what a good mother she is when grocery shopping with her kid? no.)

[JamesT2]

Seems like we triggered a broader discussion as to whether men or women have more privilege.

 

It sounds like some kind of awful gender biases these. They're thinking maybe you're a predator or something, which is awful and shameful when it's a good thing that a family member is watching his relative for the day. On the other hand, my friend says that when her husband takes their daughter grocery shopping, women come up to him to tell him what a good father he is. (But do they come up to my friend and tell her what a good mother she is when grocery shopping with her kid? no.)

 

Ah. Was it in this thread or did I dream it? But I was thinking about how you get eyed and smiled at when you're a man walking a children with his mother (so dating say mother or being sort of a friend). My relative has a ten year old boy and women often compliment the boy. My goof of a relative never understood that when a woman compliment the child, she's actually complimenting his father. Men are this bad at women psychology until a woman explain it to them.

[Batya33]

The playgrounds I go to - moms and dads, male and female caregivers - been to playgrounds in 3 cities at least all over the country. The only issue is if there is a man who doesn't seem to be with a child -for 2 reasons -most of the playgrounds we go to are specifically for children accompanied by an adult (usually signs to that effect) and there is a gender bias - a woman can walk into a fenced in playground and not get looks but if an unaccompanied man does that, different story. So if my husband plans to meet up with us at a playground he calls me before walking in if he doesn't see exactly where our son is playing or where I am.

[IAmFCA]

Could you please send some of it my way? I definitely appreciate not being shot by cops for Standing/Driving While White, but, beyond that, I don't think it's ever helped me.

 

I took one of my nieces to the park, last year...and you would not believe the suspicious looks I got from the various moms there. There are a growing number of spaces in society where men are simply not welcome.

 

 

 

It's "easy" for men if they're happy being involuntarily celibate, yeah. Otherwise, most of them are stuck paying. (Not me, though, because I go to the mat on this particular issue.)

 

I just got back from the store. I saw so many attractive women there...and knew that I had no chance with them. I feel very depressed right now. I'm reasonably happy with my FWBs, but I'll never get the sort of women that taller, better-paid, social-skills-having guys will get.

 

And with good reason.

 

Social skills and kindness go a looonnnggg way. If you make paying an issue, I am so over you. Life is too damn big to worry about 50 bucks or less. Now,if you make it a guideline, like I'll get this one, you get the next, I am cool with you. To think guys get worthy gals because they paid the tab is just... wrong. Guys and gals both compete. Whatever strengths we use to compete results in us attracting someone who values those strengths. If you want someone who values you for your money, then pay, always and often. If, like you, you want her to value you for other things then pay sometimes, and choose regular activities, not luxury ones. Be graceful about it so that money isn't ever front and center, that's all. I applaud you for not paying all the time. It's authentic to you and unnecessary.

[IAmFCA]

I don't know, my experience has been in both my schooling, career, and social life that I'm far less limited than males my age. I am never judged for partaking in masculine OR feminine activites, both are acceptable for women. Not so for men. I don't feel the legal system is skewed towards women. If you look at custody issues, it's usually the woman who gets primary custody and the man gets visitation: this is default. If he wants joint, he has to go to court and fight for it, even if he was always a good dad.

 

I understand that other peoples' experience may be different but that is mine and I just won't have people tell me that I am oppressed when I am not.

 

As for the boss story, my boss does the same thing. I have coworkers who are my age and younger who have children. It is known that I do not have children and I am unmarried as well. I usually work more holidays because (and I quote): "You don't have kids but so-and-so does so, you know..."

 

My boss is female.

 

Scheduling is different than salary, I mean, yes, what you describe isn't fair but you could address it. I have to offer, almost forcefully, to travel for my company because they try to leave me at home with my kids. Their assumption about what works best for me. On custody, many men here have 5050 joint, and are active in their children's lives. Mine fought for more and I didn't give it to him, because he had never once had a schedule that accommodated the kids, so I knew I would end up with them anyway. I was basically screwed in court but I don't much care. In any event, I didn't say the law was skewed one way or the other, rather that now, both parties are out of balance at different points. The MWFN story of being accused of abuse - I now know more than 5 men who have had to deal with this. The law clearly favors women for sexist reasons both documented and undocumented. On the other hand, men have a harder time getting baby sitting jobs, which can be a lucrative way to find housing and income when starting out - this is social but also legal, and it relates again to what's needed to charge abuse.

 

Law goes both ways. Social limits remain, but they are toothless for men: walk against convention and eventually, for the next guy,convention will change.

[Blue Spiral]

And with good reason.

 

...wow. That was vicious. But, in my experience, that's how women tend to treat downscale men.

 

Social skills and kindness go a looonnnggg way.

 

I have the latter; I'm incapable of the former.

 

If you make paying an issue, I am so over you.

 

When it's on the other gender to pursue, yeah, you can afford to say that. If I said that to a woman, they'd laugh in my face and my cell phone would gather dust while I waited for prospects to call.

 

Life is too damn big to worry about 50 bucks or less.

 

Please tell your fellow women that, so they'll pay for my meals.

 

To think guys get worthy gals because they paid the tab is just... wrong.

 

...and yet accurate, though it isn't the whole story. Take a look on ENA and see how women talk about "cheap" guys.

 

I applaud you for not paying all the time. It's authentic to you and unnecessary.

 

I've never paid for a date, period, and never will. Just wanted to be clear.

[IAmFCA]

My daughters are being raised by a career oriented self sufficient (and wildly flawed) single mom. They go to one of the best schools in the region plus some, and it is a single gender school. In their world it is expected that girls can be smart athletic ambitious and pretty. In this privileged environment, they have experienced directly or by witness gender disparity, sexual abuse, male privilege in terms of sexual power, rules enforcement, and peer accountability. The brother school gets more donations, year after year, from families who have children in each. I know a mom whose daughter is not there, but her son is, because her husband wouldn't pay for a private education for their daughter because "she's just going to be home anyway, it's a waste of money."

 

Not everyone. Not isolated. More than one example of everything. It's appalling.

[Fudgie]

My parents have equal careers, equal degrees, and both make the same amount of money. My mother was making quite a bit more than my dad for most of my childhood though, just was her position, although they worked the same crazy hours.

 

I definitely have withstood some gender discrimination but overall, I feel have overcome it. I got some of it in my major at college but by the time we all graduated, I earned their respect and no one gave me any issues. I have been physically, verbally, and even sexually bothered (if you count groping, breast grabbing, hands in my crotch, etc) at my job but that's just because I come into contact with bad people. I've never felt oppressed because of my gender.

 

I really do enjoy being in a position where I can do what I want and if I do feminine things, that's "Hey, cool, she knows how to cook/sew/etc" and if I do masculine things, it's "Hey cool! A girl who likes to game/hunt/watch gore films, etc". I am not shamed for liking what I like.

 

What bothers me about gender stereotypes is that I think, as a whole, men are still taught to suppress their emotions and not be that caring, to expect the wife/girlfriend to do most of the childrearing. It's true - it's not 50/50, women get stuck with the brunt of it. I think there's a balance somewhere and lots of men could benefit from learning how to care for someone else (doesn't have to be kids) and to have a little empathy, just like how I think women should be taught at a young age how to regulate their emotions and that they are not allowed to use menstruation/pregnancy/mood swings as an excuse to treat others poorly.

 

I just dislike how it's so polarized.

[IAmFCA]

...wow. That was vicious. But, in my experience, that's how women tend to treat downscale men.

 

BS, I said "and with good reason" for a reason. Social skills and taking a stand on money are two traits that signal others to stay away. Why would these women, whom you imagine to be higher quality than your usuals,why would they invest in someone who is focused on limiting his investment in them? Paying attention to how we treat others, to the best of our ability which is different for each of us, is one of the ways we signal to others that we value them. You choose not to offer that signal. Treating others as an act of kindness is a similar signal, but you are so worried of being taken advantage of that you won't offer to pay beyond 50/50, since you "go to the mat" on this issue.

 

I prefer to spend my time with friends - dating or friends of any kind - who trust me enough to offer me their generosity of spirit and wallet. It's how my friends and I invest in each other.

 

So, no. If you choose to protect yourself from the judgmentAL and greedy nature you assume are within us, then we would do well to avoid you. It isn't bitterness, why would I invest all that emotion? I would just pick someone who seems more friendly.

 

And this has nothing to do with downscale. It just doesn't. Last week I took a man out for a 200 dollar meal. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. We aren't dating. Never will be. Never going to fling. But he is a good guy, and I wanted to have dinner with him. So I did. I paid because I wanted his company and I knew where he wanted to eat and that is what it cost.

 

My women friends are also happy to pay. Why shouldn't we be? We work for a living too. However, if you are COUNTING who has paid and keeping a tally, I will not pay. Because someone who tallies values money in a way that is different than how I do. I value the spirit of taking care of each other, and that is why sometimes I pay.

 

There will always be men and women who hook up with wealthy lovers because they value the wealth. These are not quality; these are folks who have sold themselves.

 

You will find what you expect to see in others. If I told all my women friends not to worry about the next 50 bucks, they might all agree. And then they would meet you, and discover that you are worried about the next 50 bucks. They likely would adjust their spirit to match yours, and buy themselves a coffee and then wait for you to buy yours, and then call it a day.

[IAmFCA]

I agree with your post, Fudgie. I have encountered it, and overcome it. Its residue is everywhere. Also, I agree about women and child rearing. I have a number of male friends who are amazing fathers, every day, day in, day out. It sometimes is annoying for them; people don't expect them to be so involved. They are overcoming as well.

[IAmFCA]

I want to add a few years ago I had absolutely no disposable income. I couldn't afford anything. I would not have bought an indulgent dinner for any man because I didn't have the money. So I used to (and will again) to bake for a date. I brought cookies to a first meet dinner date, I brought pie to my bfs house often. Baking is much less expensive, and invests something of myself in the other person. I baked cookies for one of my best gal pals. I couldn't afford to buy her a gift s her other friends did, but I did surprise her with something that showed I care. Money isn't everything.

[Blue Spiral]

Social skills and taking a stand on money are two traits that signal others to stay away.

 

Well, I don't have much in the way of either social skills or money, so I guess I'd better stick with cam models.

 

I find it awfully convenient that you view spending as an indicator of a person's kindness/morality. It's a built-in excuse to gravitate toward certain types of men. In fact, it's even as clever as the classic "ambition" codeword. "No, I don't care about money, I care about kindness/ambition! The money part is just a coincidence!"

 

you won't offer to pay beyond 50/50, since you "go to the mat" on this issue.

 

In the interests of clarity, I've never even done that. I know I'm repeating myself, but, I don't date, and will never date.

 

I prefer to spend my time with friends - dating or friends of any kind - who trust me enough to offer me their generosity of spirit and wallet. It's how my friends and I invest in each other.

 

I don't have friends--and don't want any.

 

This is getting sort of tiresome. I have enough negative crap to deal with in my life...ENA used to be a good outlet for me (my only one, really), but I'm starting to have my doubts, now.

[Mr_LFA]

 

This is getting sort of tiresome. I have enough negative crap to deal with in my life...ENA used to be a good outlet for me (my only one, really), but I'm starting to have my doubts, now.

I don't blame you, considering the trite that has been posted in this journal, in the past 24 hours.

 

Don't go away - I'm still listening Blue!

[itsallgrand]

I don't see what is wrong with women rejecting men who aren't going to be a contribution to their lives.

You've stated you want nothing but sex from women, so the hulling is good, imo

[Silverbirch]

Patriarchy hasn't just been about oppressing women. One iof the worst aspects to he is what has happened to many boy children and boys at or around puberty - their socialisation, especially in boarding schools and as day students in many of the traditional private schools. A lit more of it is becoming public knowledge, but basically, it's been about bastardising bits so that they can grow up to "succeed" and be able to make cold, hard decisions without attaching emotion to situations. There are probably some improvements. I'm glad I was aware of all if that when I was bringing up a boy. It helped me be a better mother and person.