Blue Spiral Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Over in the (latest) Dougie thread, someone said: "I think it's just really difficult for some men to take responsibility for their lives." Just speaking for myself...it's not that it's really difficult (though, economically, compared to the past, it's certainly harder), it's that there's no real incentive for us to do so. Men can be mostly irresponsible and still get plenty of sex and sustain ourselves economically. That's all most of us really care about, IMHO. I know a lot of older guys that worked hard for a long time, got married, and now have nothing to show for either. Outside of my dad, whenever a man over fifty has given me advice, it's been to stay unmarried (divorce or general misery) and work less (you'll get used up and thrown away by your employer). And even if they aren't explicitly telling you that, you can look at their lives and see them as warnings of things to avoid. When I look at my uncles, my grandfathers, the older men I know through work...yeah, I don't want to go through what they're going through. Whenever I read threads like Dougie's, I see women telling men that they just need to focus on self-improvement, whether financial or emotional...and then I see most of the women I know happily banging guys that are very, um, un-improved. Oh, they may be tall, or they may have been born into money, but other than that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dias Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 What bothers me generally is that women exhort men to ameliorate themselves in every aspect (financially etc) in order to find girls ...in other words "get better to serve me better" . I laugh when i hear some women complaining about their boyfriends not being ambitious enough while themselves work at low paid jobs . The thing is (usually) that if a guy really achieves to improve himself like getting a well paid job, getting ripped etc he is not going to settle for one woman or for an average looking woman . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 "And even if they aren't explicitly telling you that, you can look at their lives and see them as warnings of things to avoid." Yes, from your biased perspective. Most of the men I know in their 40s/50s (mostly late 40s) either like/love being married and having a family or want to be. There are 3 men in their 50s (1 divorced, two never married, no children) who regularly ask me to set them up with women who want to get married. That's typical of the men I know. We have two male friends who are single/mid-late 40s/no children and they are happy being single and in the 15-20 years I've known them have never talked about any negative impressions of being married/having a family -it simply hasn't happened for them yet and it's not a focus of theirs. I don't think a man has to be negatively biased towards marriage to choose to be single. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsallgrand Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I don't know why it's so satisfying exactly to obsess basically on a certain group of women. Yes, there are users and hos. We all know this. And there are women who aren't. But not once have I heard about a woman like that here on this thread. It does frustrate me, especially since it's so ironic, you want the hos. lol. Well if that's what you want, of course it's a self sustaining cycle. Of thought and action. It's like listening to my boss b/ch about his wife buying things with his money. Well, you chose a woman who sold herself for a wedding ring. I don't want to hear it - it's equally gross on both ends from my perspective. I hate prostitution in all its forms, and that's basically what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 "And even if they aren't explicitly telling you that, you can look at their lives and see them as warnings of things to avoid." Yes, from your biased perspective. Good lord, am I not even allowed to have opinions? Look, if I told you the life stories of my grandfathers, uncles, and my dad, I think most people would agree with me...though you'd no doubt insist that there's all sorts of great stuff that I'm not seeing. My aunt's affair strengthened my uncle's marriage! My late grandfather loved having to take in my cousin's kids, even though he didn't want to and my grandmother made him! I don't know why it's so satisfying exactly to obsess basically on a certain group of women. Yes, there are users and hos. We all know this. And there are women who aren't. But not once have I heard about a woman like that here on this thread. It does frustrate me, especially since it's so ironic, you want the hos. lol. Well if that's what you want, of course it's a self sustaining cycle. Of thought and action. I am slightly baffled by this. I was after casual sex, yes, so does that mean that I wanted "hos"? I didn't think that was the case. Truth be told, I tend to go for the timid, clean-cut types, because I'm that way myself. (Spoiler alert: those types are usually much freakier than the trying-too-hard-to-be-sexy types.) Also, what sort of women am I supposed to be talking about? I thought I already talked about the monogamy-obsessed breeder types, which, I assume, would qualify as "non-hos". I feel like you and I are reading two different threads. For the record, I'm not talking about this for "satisfaction" reasons. I'm venting, yeah, but it's just to keep myself sane. I can't keep all of this bottled up. I've had my-own-level women denying me sex for twenty years, for reasons that are usually completely arbitrary, and, despite what some people think, sex really is a fundamental need. Sure, I can go without it, and I expect I'll have to from here on out, but the lack of it starts to eat at you. I have tried to quit ENA many times, but the rage and resentment keep me coming back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 "Good lord, am I not even allowed to have opinions? Look, if I told you the life stories of my grandfathers, uncles, and my dad, I think most people would agree with me...though you'd no doubt insist that there's all sorts of great stuff that I'm not seeing. My aunt's affair strengthened my uncle's marriage! My late grandfather loved having to take in my cousin's kids, even though he didn't want to and my grandmother made him!" Of course you're allowed to -and encourage to- have opinions. My opinion on that particular opinion was that it was based on your biased perspective, a perspective you've described multiple times. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have an opinion - or that I shouldn't have an opinion on your generalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 The issue with Dougie's thread is that he's in a rough place. He's established that he wants a relationship. However, he lacks life experience, which may not be a problem if he were younger but he's in his 30s. He seemingly lacks a more universally appealing sense of humor. He also lacks money, a "good" job, a nice car, conventional good looks, etc. He also doesn't strike me as someone who is looking for marriage/kids immediately, because then he could appeal to some misguided, desperate women out there who are so intent on following that path, they don't screen much. Even if Dougie branched out to date younger, they probably wouldn't go for it because of the look aspect. So what's he to do? Stay the way he is and lower his standards to Mariana trench level...or he can try to improve himself. If he's unwilling to change his standards or unwilling to possibly wait a very long time for that elusive match, then change is the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 Another option is that he remains like he is now. I hate to try to mind-read another person, but, he must be satisfied on some level, because a genuinely-unsatisfied person would have taken major steps long ago. Then again, maybe I'm just projecting, because I was that way. I kept wondering why I couldn't make a relationship work...and then I realized that I didn't actually care that much about a relationship, which is why I never tried very hard to get one. Does my current giving-up-on-FWBs apathy mean that I no longer care about sex, either? I guess time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Maybe he does want to remain the same (and I think you're right on that, btw) but remaining the same and finding someone who meet his current standards may be almost mutually exclusive. He makes a lot of threads complaining about not finding a woman to be with so he doesn't have the apathy towards relationships that you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 On the one hand, he hasn't had any relationships/FWBs to be apathetic about, while I've been dealing with this crap for sixteen years. God, I can remember being young and thinking, "Once I get a girlfriend, all of my problems will be over!" Well, I got one, and...! On the other, I'm also an expert on endlessly complaining while not changing anything, so I shouldn't be criticizing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Girlfriends never solve your problems, they just make you feel better for the time being and your wallet gets a lot thinner. Any underlying problems will still be there regardless if you have a girlfriend, or lose weight, or get some more money, etc. There's kind of a sucky truth in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 Yeah, "self" is the main issue that needs to be dealt with. Everything else is window dressing. Having said that, you're wrong about one thing--my wallet never got much thinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I don't know how you did it, my wallet was always a little thinner when I boyfriend'd versus no boyfriend, you know, increased outings and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 I prefer staying in, basically. My two primary reasons: 1. I don't see the point in being around people that I'm not sleeping with. 2. You can't have sex in public, so why would you want to be out in public?? On a completely unrelated note: as time has gone by, I've identified most of the issues that have caused me problems with women. Some of them are because of choices I've made (and stand by), and some are completely out of my control. I recently identified another such issue...namely, the fact that I'm just not good at (or interested in) in making myself look good. I don't spend much time around other men, so I'm always surprised when I hear some guy bragging about his job, his car, something he's good at, etc. I just don't talk about myself that way, and I keep forgetting that other men do. (When it comes to things that I don't care about, my memory is absolutely horrible, btw. I couldn't tell you which hand a wedding ring is supposed to be on, even if you put a gun to my head.) I just...I don't know. As pretentious as it sounds, I think the whole thing is kind of gauche. Now, granted, I don't have much to brag about, because I've never been a very ambitious or materialistic person. But I've accomplished some things, and there are some things I'm very good at...but I never talk about them. I think it comes off as being fake and showy (when anyone does it). I don't know, it just rubs me the wrong way. I'm the exact opposite of most guys: I never talk about myself, but I endlessly (and truthfully) flatter women. Is it a competition thing, or an ego thing? I've never been competitive, and I don't have much of an ego. At any rate, I've noticed that not "hyping" yourself turns women off, generally speaking. Even the more mature/intellectual ones seem to expect guys to try to impress them. It's just another reason that I'm not cut out for all this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annie24 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Is it a competition thing, or an ego thing? I've never been competitive, and I don't have much of an ego. At any rate, I've noticed that not "hyping" yourself turns women off, generally speaking. Even the more mature/intellectual ones seem to expect guys to try to impress them. It's just another reason that I'm not cut out for all this... It's a fine line, right? No one wants to go on a date and hear their date talk on and on and on about themselves. That's a turnoff to me. It's nice to highlight accomplishments but yeah, endless bragging is not cool. Maybe it works for some guys, but I'm guessing those are not the women you'd want to attract (the ones that the endless bragging works on?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 It's a fine line, right? No one wants to go on a date and hear their date talk on and on and on about themselves. That's a turnoff to me. It's nice to highlight accomplishments but yeah, endless bragging is not cool. Maybe it works for some guys, but I'm guessing those are not the women you'd want to attract (the ones that the endless bragging works on?) Literally every man I know acts like this, including men that are married, men that should be too old to play those sorts of games, etc. My dad has been this way for as long as I can remember (and he doesn't need to be--he's a hard worker, he could let it speak for itself). It isn't just bragging, though, it's also a sort of judgmental behavior where the person keeps going on about how they're morally better than some other person. Now, maybe I'm just hypersensitive to it and notice "minor" chest-thumping more than most people. Strangely, the majority of women that I've been with have told me that I need to more "confident" and "vocal" about my accomplishments. It's one of those things where some women say they hate it, and yet, when you look at the guys they end up with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I DO see men act like this; it strikes me as an intuitive skill to enhance supremacy over other men (real, imagined, present or not) I generally end up with men who do NOT act like this. In fact, since 2010, I dated only one man like this. Dated any number of stoic, quiet, humble and/or private men who simply didn't talk about themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I DO see men act like this; it strikes me as an intuitive skill to enhance supremacy over other men (real, imagined, present or not) I generally end up with men who do NOT act like this. In fact, since 2010, I dated only one man like this. Dated any number of stoic, quiet, humble and/or private men who simply didn't talk about themselves. My husband is like this. He grew in confidence over the years but thankfully didn't change how he interacts with people. I think it's far more charming and engaging than too much self-promotion. Luckily he can do that when needed (i.e. job-related). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 There you go, Blue Spiral. Lots of support, if the peacocking isn't your thing. You do need to have a few funny stories about yourself, but the full route of displaying your aptitude is but one example of genuinely masculine behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 It's just hard for me to imagine, because I've never seen a man avoid that sort of masculine crap, nor have I ever seen a woman who wasn't attracted to it. (As I said, I've known a few who said they didn't like it, and yet they ended up with chest-thumping neanderthals.) I can't do it at all--job-related or not--and don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikeWater Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I don't know, man. I think you need to open your eyes. I've seen and known plenty of women who would roll their eyes in disgust at obnoxious bragging. In fact, I'd argue that more people in general would find that type of behavior annoying than would find it attractive. Like, it's actually bizarre for me to see you say that you've never seen a woman that wasn't attracted to such a thing. Of course, it depends on looks as well. If the guy is super good looking then for a lot of ladies, it's not gonna matter what bile spills out of his mouth. It works exactly the same the other way around too; if a lady is beyond sexy then she could be the dumbest, most boring person in the world and 9/10 dudes would still want to hook up with her. But even then, looks and all, there would definitely be some people that would be completely turned off by it. I think it was already said, but there's such a huge difference between confidence and an egomaniac, ya know? It's just been my experience that when all someone wants to do is talk about themselves, male or female, it tends to eventually drive people away. I have a hard time believing that it's been completely different for yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I don't know, man. I think you need to open your eyes. I've seen and known plenty of women who would roll their eyes in disgust at obnoxious bragging. In fact, I'd argue that more people in general would find that type of behavior annoying than would find it attractive. Like, it's actually bizarre for me to see you say that you've never seen a woman that wasn't attracted to such a thing. Of course, it depends on looks as well. If the guy is super good looking then for a lot of ladies, it's not gonna matter what bile spills out of his mouth. It works exactly the same the other way around too; if a lady is beyond sexy then she could be the dumbest, most boring person in the world and 9/10 dudes would still want to hook up with her. But even then, looks and all, there would definitely be some people that would be completely turned off by it. I think it was already said, but there's such a huge difference between confidence and an egomaniac, ya know? It's just been my experience that when all someone wants to do is talk about themselves, male or female, it tends to eventually drive people away. I have a hard time believing that it's been completely different for yours. I concur with this 100%., The most powerful people I have met tend to brag very little. If telling a story for entertainment, we may learn a bit about their prowess at something, but that's never the central point. With power comes responsibility to withhold that power so the lesser ones can shine. When I see a man use his grace to let someone else shine, that's when I know I see power and it is attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I don't know, man. I think you need to open your eyes. I've seen and known plenty of women who would roll their eyes in disgust at obnoxious bragging. In fact, I'd argue that more people in general would find that type of behavior annoying than would find it attractive. Like, it's actually bizarre for me to see you say that you've never seen a woman that wasn't attracted to such a thing. I'm not necessarily talking about the obnoxious type of bragging. It's just that...every man I've ever been around tells stories where they're the competent one at work, they're the responsible one that dealt with some family problem, etc. Older men sit around and talk about how responsible they are compared to younger men; hard-working men sit around and talk about how harder-working they are compared to less ambitious men, and so on. It seems like everything that comes out of most men's mouths is intended to impress women or generally increase their social status, and I suspect that most of it is strictly subconscious, rather than purposeful obnoxious crap. There's nothing wrong with it (assuming it's the truth), I think I'm just allergic to it or something. And, just in case anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, let me reiterate: I am the only man I personally know that doesn't do this, and I've never seen a woman respond to it in a negative way. I've been around truly inept, nothing-to-be-proud-of guys, and they sit next to their gf/wife or buddies and crow about how so-and-so isn't as good as them in some area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I'm not necessarily talking about the obnoxious type of bragging. It's just that...every man I've ever been around tells stories where they're the competent one at work, they're the responsible one that dealt with some family problem, etc. Older men sit around and talk about how responsible they are compared to younger men; hard-working men sit around and talk about how harder-working they are compared to less ambitious men, and so on. It seems like everything that comes out of most men's mouths is intended to impress women or generally increase their social status, and I suspect that most of it is strictly subconscious, rather than purposeful obnoxious crap. There's nothing wrong with it (assuming it's the truth), I think I'm just allergic to it or something. And, just in case anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, let me reiterate: I am the only man I personally know that doesn't do this, and I've never seen a woman respond to it in a negative way. I've been around truly inept, nothing-to-be-proud-of guys, and they sit next to their gf/wife or buddies and crow about how so-and-so isn't as good as them in some area. I am related to someone who does this. I find it tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Spiral Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I'm sexually attracted to women...but I don't really like women. I can't stand being around my own gender. I hope that aliens arrive soon, because I need a third option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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