Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Batya33]

It's not a need or of course professionals would recommend it for teenagers, etc- instead, teenagers are advised to wait, to be selective, to abstain unless the partner is safe, etc. Certainly it should be part of a healthy, adult, romantic relationship and certainly physical affection, whether romantic or otherwise is a need (especially for babies and young children but not only) but, no I don't agree that intercourse is a need. In fact, many gay people would disagree -there are other ways to feel sexually fulfilled either on one's own or with a partner without intercourse. I do think sexual fulfillment of some kind is far closer to a need.

 

So, nope, not lessening the importance of sexual intercourse- just disagree that it is a need. Just as you would disagree that close personal friendships are a need (to me they are - but I don't believe obectively, generally they are).

 

If you lacked access to any form of sexual fulfillment -whether on your own or with another person certainly it would be important to address that in some way.

[Fudgie]

If you ever want evidence that sexual intimacy (inculding intercourse AND other acts, like masturbation) is a need (obviously not the #1 need, but it's an important need), you you can look at a variety of forums: depression forums, weight loss forums, ED forums, etc. and see the conditions that people have that stop them from being intimate, either it's a prohibitive body structure, or SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, or just erection/ejaculation dysfunction...it's devastating. This really ruins relationships and makes people feel like crap. Men feel inadequate and women feel like their partners aren't attracted to them. People end up getting divorced over this.

 

I think many people can satisfy the need with porn/masturbation as needed, but it's not as good as the real thing. But it still satisfies something. For me, since I was a teenager, I've masturbated quite a bit, once a week at my lowest point going to everyday for a while. Why did I do that? I feel an urge. I don't know how else to describe it. Finishing is like a release of tension. When I was a teenager and started to go to sleep-away camp, I used to get really antsy because I was not able to it when I went away for swaths of time. I have no doubt that this is what fueled my first bisexual experiences while at an all-female camp. We were at camp for well over a month, and we were horny, stuff happens. It's the same reason why the 2 male counsellors that were there, both old and ugly as sin, had girls trying to crawl all over them 2 weeks in. Good thing they didn't act on it.

 

Look at what happens in prisons. You have so many straight men who go into prison and then do homosexual acts. No, it's not that they were gay or bi on the outside. It's because human sexuality has some fluidity and the need to be intimate is strong enough that in the absence of women and porn, they will act out their needs with each other.

 

The need to be intimate/sexual is very strong.

[Batya33]

Yes I totally agree. I do not agree that people need sexual intercourse but agree that it is important in a heterosexual adult romantic relationship. In my first ever engagement we were going to wait till marriage - it was not a need but it was a desire and we chose to prioritize our values at the time over that desire. Sex had nothing to do with why we broke up before the wedding.

[Fudgie]

I think people need sexual intimacy/activity to some degree, whether that includes heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, scissoring, making out, foreplay, or just plain old masturbation/porn/erotica. It's all under the same umbrella. People need some of that in their life. Take it all away plus their ability to stimulate and pleasure themselves, and you get what you see in jail.

[Batya33]

I think people need sexual intimacy/activity to some degree, whether that includes heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, scissoring, making out, foreplay, or just plain old masturbation/porn/erotica. It's all under the same umbrella. People need some of that in their life. Take it all away plus their ability to stimulate and pleasure themselves, and you get what you see in jail.

 

Yes, I agree.

[Batya33]

I will add that if the OP thinks sex is a "need" then he should be willing to resolve his issues with having a romantic relationship -the whole package I mean - so that he can vastly increase his chances of getting his sexual needs fulfilled. It doesn't add up for a person to claim to need whatever it is so badly and then not be willing to put 110% effort into making changes that would increase the chances of getting that need fulfilled (and, I suspect, finding out in the process that getting sexual needs fulfilled in the context of a romantic, loving relationship are often far superior to the casual sex variety and also far less risky as far as STDs and unwanted pregnancies -but that is just my personal bias).

[Blue Spiral]

I will add that if the OP thinks sex is a "need" then he should be willing to resolve his issues with having a romantic relationship

 

And how would I do that, exactly? Even if I'm actually capable of monogamy (I don't think I am, personally), I don't enjoy it or want it, and I certainly wouldn't be much of a partner for anyone.

 

-the whole package I mean - so that he can vastly increase his chances of getting his sexual needs fulfilled.

 

Even if we accept that monogamy improves a person's sex life--and I don't--I can't see that sort of thing working. "Hey, I don't really care about you at all, but they said the best way to get laid on the regular is to be in a relationship. You're okay with me saying just a few words a day, right?"

 

It doesn't add up for a person to claim to need whatever it is so badly and then not be willing to put 110% effort into making changes that would increase the chances of getting that need fulfilled

 

I view sex as being a major need. And yet...I am not going to sacrifice my dignity to get it (i.e., dating), nor am I going to spend an excessive amount of effort. Other people just aren't worth it. Not all of us are ambitious go-getters: I'm a passive, laid-back person, and I like it that way. Sex is not my main priority. It's my main priority where people are concerned, yes, but it isn't my main priority in life.

 

(and, I suspect, finding out in the process that getting sexual needs fulfilled in the context of a romantic, loving relationship are often far superior to the casual sex variety and also far less risky as far as STDs and unwanted pregnancies -but that is just my personal bias).

 

If you added up the time I spent in my experiments with monogamy, I imagine you'd have a year, year and a half at the most. I felt like I was drowning the whole time. I want to have sex with every attractive woman I see, and this "loving" crap did nothing to change that. The fact that you have to be around people when you aren't having sex with them...my god. It's bad enough I have to deal with it out in the world, but in those days, I had to deal with it at home, too.

 

Also: whether I was in a relationship or not, I'd still have to worry about STDs and unwanted pregnancies. This way, the financial worries are less of a factor.

[Batya33]

"Also: whether I was in a relationship or not, I'd still have to worry about STDs and unwanted pregnancies. This way, the financial worries are less of a factor."

 

it's clear that if you're in a monogamous relationship STDS and unwanted pregnancies are far less of a worry than in casual sex and financially -you can do a prenup and of course a casual sex partner can take you to court for child support etc. For example, my doctors only recommended regular STD testing when I was single if I was sexually active. They would recommend it now only if I suspected an extramarital affair.

 

I think it's fine if you think you're not capable of monogamy -but then stating that you lack access to sex, a need of yours, should be coupled with (pun intended) "of course I could have more access to sex if I got to the bottom of why I don't want a monogamous, loving relationship and tried to resolve that". Of course you might end up in the same spot but then you would know that you put in your best effort -with a professional you respected -to figure it out. Or simply accept that you are getting in your own way of what you define as "no access to sex" when a woman declines to have casual sex with you.

 

I wouldn't experiment with monogamy at all. I would find a way with a professional (or meditation or whatever is suggested) to work on yourself and get to the bottom of it or realize that it's not the women who decline to have casual sex with you that are affecting your access to a sex life - you are, in large part.

[Blue Spiral]

it's clear that if you're in a monogamous relationship STDS and unwanted pregnancies are far less of a worry than in casual sex

 

As you mention, a partner can cheat and give you an STD. Accidental (and "accidental") pregnancies can happen whether you're in a relationship or not.

 

and financially -you can do a prenup and of course a casual sex partner can take you to court for child support etc.

 

I've heard too many horror stories about family court judges overturning prenups.

 

I think it's fine if you think you're not capable of monogamy -but then stating that you lack access to sex, a need of yours, should be coupled with (pun intended) "of course I could have more access to sex if I got to the bottom of why I don't want a monogamous, loving relationship and tried to resolve that". Of course you might end up in the same spot but then you would know that you put in your best effort -with a professional you respected -to figure it out. Or simply accept that you are getting in your own way of what you define as "no access to sex" when a woman declines to have casual sex with you.

 

I wouldn't experiment with monogamy at all. I would find a way with a professional (or meditation or whatever is suggested) to work on yourself and get to the bottom of it or realize that it's not the women who decline to have casual sex with you that are affecting your access to a sex life - you are, in large part.

 

You're always going to think this is my fault, so there's not much point in debating it that aspect of it.

 

But...if someone doesn't want monogamy, they need counseling? Wow.

[Fudgie]

Blue Spiral,

 

You are not a monogamy sort of guy, and that's okay. You've tried it, it's not for you. I think if you were coming at it from a place of hate or trauma, then counselling could help but you've tried monogamy and you felt suffocated and restricted, so what's the point in therapy? I just don't believe it's for everyone and I wish everyone could as honest with themselves as you are.

 

Unfortunately, when it comes to strictly casual stuff, it's really slim pickings unless you're Mr. Money Bags and/or you have the body of Adonis. That's sort of the name of the game. It's unfair and it sucks. I actually think there would be fewer guys pretending to like monogamy when they really don't like it if they had other options.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever mentioned this but I think you could find many more options if you looked outside of your locale or if you moved. It sounds like you're in a heavy military-based area and that's probably not a good place for you to find people who are looking for the same thing. Have you considered going to a city?

[Batya33]

"As you mention, a partner can cheat and give you an STD. Accidental (and "accidental") pregnancies can happen whether you're in a relationship or not."

 

I am talking about risk factors. Having multiple sex partners/casual sex increases the risk of STDS and unwanted pregnancies - if you are in a monogamous healthy relationship then presumably you have healthy communication about STD risk and pregnancy. That is much harder to control with random sex partners. It's proven that increasing the number of sex partners increases the risk of STDs -every medical form I fill out asks how many partners I have had/have to ascertain my risk level for STDs and certain cancers.

 

You once again twisted my words. I think it's fine if you just want sex partners. Monogamy is not for everyone of course! But if you're not willing to have the option of monogamy in your life then I don't think you have much cause to complain about reduced access to sex. The more options you are open to to have a fulfilling sex life (or the more you are willing to work to increase your options) then the more chance you will have it. That is all I wrote- little to do with what you wrote.

[Blue Spiral]

Unfortunately, when it comes to strictly casual stuff, it's really slim pickings unless you're Mr. Money Bags and/or you have the body of Adonis. That's sort of the name of the game. It's unfair and it sucks. I actually think there would be fewer guys pretending to like monogamy when they really don't like it if they had other options.

 

Ehh, it could be worse. We (thankfully) live in a sex-soaked age, and when I actually care enough to try, I find it surprisingly easy to get FWBs. Unfortunately (for me, anyway), we also live in an age in which women are hugely in-demand, and a female 6 will have a number of male 8s chasing her. The social atmosphere is great for casual sex, but women have more sexual options than ever, so it sort of balances itself out.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever mentioned this but I think you could find many more options if you looked outside of your locale or if you moved. It sounds like you're in a heavy military-based area and that's probably not a good place for you to find people who are looking for the same thing. Have you considered going to a city?

 

Unfortunately, I doubt I could afford to move to a big city.

 

Monogamy is not for everyone of course! But if you're not willing to have the option of monogamy in your life then I don't think you have much cause to complain about reduced access to sex. The more options you are open to to have a fulfilling sex life (or the more you are willing to work to increase your options) then the more chance you will have it.

 

Now, that's interesting. Monogamy, as we all know, is one of the big traditions in humanity's civilization-era mating history. (Though we've also had polygamy.) I'm sort of wondering, though...does this "If you choose to go against tradition, your options will be limited, so you can't complain" argument also apply to other things? Should a high-earning woman not complain if she struggles to find a man that makes as much as her? After all, if she wanted to make it easier to find a husband, she shouldn't have taken a job that potential mates would struggle to compete with. What about a woman that refuses to accept old-timey patriarchal authority? Like me, they're rejecting traditional norms in favor of something else.

 

Monogamy, patriarchy, gender roles...I think those things are ridiculous and harmful. But if I'm making it hard on myself by forsaking a tradition, the same applies to women, right? I look forward to you applying that standard accross the board.

 

That is all I wrote- little to do with what you wrote.

 

"I learned it from you, Batya! I learned it from you."

 

Spiral quietly accepts his Oscar

[Batya33]

"If you choose to go against tradition, your options will be limited, so you can't complain" argument also apply to other things?

 

 

Nope, don't think so and did not mean it that way. Just strictly talking in logical terms about the results of limiting options. I had limited access to sex because I would only have sex within a serious monogamous relationship with strong potential for marriage. Since I knew I was ruling out casual sex or the option of having sex in a dating relationship but not until we'd been dating a number of months, I knew I couldn't complain about my choice to limit my access to regular sex.

 

I did not care if I married a man who made as much or more than I did -I chose a high-earning job for many years so obviously a man I might meet could make far less than me and likely not more- but absolutely, a woman in my position of course can't complain if the man she marries makes far less than she does. Totally agree.

 

Nothing to do with going against tradition. Actually the analogy I had in mind when I wrote that was how I limit my options as a non-driver in my new-ish city and yes have felt like complaining about the poor public transportation system here -unfair for those with a fear of driving like me. But I know I can't and so what I am deciding to do is get over my fear and do my best to get my license, hopefully by the time I'm 50 (i.e. next year).

[Blue Spiral]

I'm never very interested in other people...but my interest-level is starting to seriously wane. I'm getting bored/frustrated by FWBs again. I just get tired of dealing with it. And, yeah, Batya isn't helping.

 

I've been slowly withdrawing from social interaction for the last decade and a half or so...I'm seriously considering going all the way. Or as much as I can, anyway. What am I really getting out of any of this? Except for the sex, I don't enjoy any of it; it just feels like work.

[Batya33]

Sex buddies do sound as if they would be boring just by the description, after awhile. Sorry my input did not help - you do have access to sex and companionship if you want it. You are saying you're not sure the former is worth going after anymore given the work you need to put in (because you don't want much or any of the latter, or a relationship so as others wrote that shrinks the pool of available women). Certainly don't socialize if it feels like work and you don't see value in pursuing counseling as to why it is so hard for you. Totally your choice.

[Blue Spiral]

The FWB dynamic/process isn't boring in and of itself--and I actually love repetition, as long as I'm doing something that I enjoy. I've played Super Mario 3 at least a hundred times, and I'm happily playing it again now. No, I'm bored by the actual women. As bad as this is going to sound...I hate that I have to listen to them (or anyone) at all. Whenever someone talks to me, my first thought is "Oh god, please stop talking to me and go away."

 

Now, the hotter the woman, the easier it is for me to put up with. DAISY and GRETCHEN are both very hot...for their age. But then I see the women that other guys my age are with, and I know that I'm missing out.

 

So, between that issue and the fact that, even in FWBs, you have to do a little chasing and expend a little effort...ugh.

[Batya33]

I understand the part you don't like. If you really want the sex part then consider doing some work to get to the root of why interacting is so abhorrent to you and whether there are ways to make changes so that it is more enjoyable for you. Also of course fine if you choose not to -depends on how important it is to get the part you do want.

 

Just because you see men with women who look hot does not mean you are missing out on anything -you have no idea what goes on -or does not go on -behind closed doors.

[annie24]

 

 

hey, I found a photo of you in the news!

[Blue Spiral]

Heh! That sounds like...dating, which I have thankfully managed to avoid.

 

Speaking of avoidance: I got tired of dealing with women, again, so I've dropped my FWBs, and I plan on magically switching my sex drive off for a few years. I'll probably take a break from ENA, too, because I'm sick of talking/thinking about this stuff.

[Blue Spiral]

I am back again. Ugh.

 

Celibacy 3.0 is going reasonably well. (Celibacy 1.0 would be my teenage years, when I was involuntarily celibate; Celibacy 2.0 was at the start of this thread.) Celibacy 3.0 may last for a few years.

 

It occurs to me that I only seek out social contact when I'm either horny or angry. When I'm horny, I find FWBs; when I'm angry, I post on ENA. Other than that, I avoid people altogether, and am much happier for it. So, the less you hear from me, the better I'm doing...

[Fudgie]

I tend to use some online resources as "angry outlet", sometimes ENA as well. I am just a very opinionated individual and outside of my family/SO, I don't get to express myself and my ideas that often. I bottle a lot up so I can remain professional and deal with people. So trust me, I get it. I am actually really easy going and pretty chill IRL. Glad to hear you're doing well.

[Blue Spiral]

Thanks, Fudgie. I'm the same way--on ENA, I'm angry, but offline, I'm chill, because I don't have to think about all this stuff. And I usually don't waste my time with it. But, my god.

 

In positive news: I finally got Netflix! I am frankly enjoying Netflix much more than my now-discarded latter-day FWBs. (I'm saying that in relation to my history; they weren't Mormons. That I know of, anyway...)

[Fudgie]

You just got Netflix?? Omg, you've been missing out. What have you been watching?

 

I also have Slingbox. That's a device I have in my apartment that allows me to "mirror" my DVR to my iPad or smartphone so I can watch live cable TV or recorded stuff over Wi-Fi or 3G. T-Mobile just announced a new thing called "Binge On" that allows people with certain data plans to stream video for free. I already can tell that I am going to abuse the crap out of it.

[Blue Spiral]

You just got Netflix?? Omg, you've been missing out. What have you been watching?

 

Just Daredevil, so far.

 

I'm really behind the times when it comes to material things. I don't even have a smartphone yet. I didn't get a cell phone until, like, 2008 or so.

 

I also have Slingbox. That's a device I have in my apartment that allows me to "mirror" my DVR to my iPad or smartphone so I can watch live cable TV or recorded stuff over Wi-Fi or 3G. T-Mobile just announced a new thing called "Binge On" that allows people with certain data plans to stream video for free. I already can tell that I am going to abuse the crap out of it.

 

That's a little too advanced for me...

[Fudgie]

I haven't seen that but I've heard good things. I've seen a lot of shows over the years on Netflix: Prison Break, Nip/Tuck, just to name a couple. Also, there are tons of good documentaries on there too. Always something to watch.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit of a techie. I would love to get a PS4 finally, maybe someday soonish, we'll see.