Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Blue Spiral]

I'm not sure it's ever really a good idea to withhold affection be it sexual or otherwise in order to get something from someone, especially someone you claim to love.

 

I fully agree, obviously. But it usually works. I think that men are starting to wise up, though.

 

In the words of Billy Mays: "There's got to be a better way!"

 

I can't believe the universe took him before it took the ShamWow guy.

[annie24]

I've never asked a woman to do any of that stuff for me. You may recall that I'm against gender roles--I happily do my own cooking and cleaning. (And it may not shock you to learn that I don't attend any "important events", or any events at all, for that matter.)

 

Thank god for feminism--it's given women less to hold over the heads of cads like me!

 

i know - I wasn't referring to you, but rather other people in relationships. As you only have FWB, they don't have any other leverage on you. In a live-in relationship, I'd disagree with your guy friends and say that their girlfriends have other options besides withholding sex (but maybe that's the only thing your guy friends care about).

[annie24]

I'm not sure it's ever really a good idea to withhold affection be it sexual or otherwise in order to get something from someone, especially someone you claim to love.

 

In the words of Billy Mays: "There's got to be a better way!"

 

no, not a good idea.

[itsallgrand]

I think once people are working their leverage (or what they think they have as leverage), they have already lost whatever it was they were hoping to have as far as 'relationship' goes. Whether it's one of love, or casual sex, once the two people are pulling the old leverage crap, it does become a cheap pseudo version of an actual mutual exchange/relationship.

And on a personal level, I find withholding affection and sex, or attention to a person, to get what one wants, to be repugnant. And I have a verrry low tolerance for it.

 

And people who end up playing that game with another, and whining about it, are responsible for their own situation. You don't like it? You leave and find someone else then. Either tolerate crap behavior, or don't. Not my problem, and does not say anything about how many women withhold sex. Just tells me how many men you know who are attracted to women who would do that.

 

I think it's convienent for you, Blue, to think all women treat sexuality in the way you describe, because it brings it back to women basically acting like prostitutes again. Justifies how you already look at women. It's circular. "well, they act like hoes, gonna treat em like they deserve" kind of thinking. And since you specifically only seek out women who would tolerate the behavior you exhibit, circular again. Your experiences reconfirm for you that women, are indeed, all prostitutes at aheart.

[Blue Spiral]

i know - I wasn't referring to you, but rather other people in relationships. As you only have FWB, they don't have any other leverage on you. In a live-in relationship, I'd disagree with your guy friends and say that their girlfriends have other options besides withholding sex (but maybe that's the only thing your guy friends care about).

 

Neither of my girlfriends ever had leverage over me, except for two areas: withholding sex and leaving. (I should've mentioned leaving sooner; my bad.)

 

I think once people are working their leverage (or what they think they have as leverage), they have already lost whatever it was they were hoping to have as far as 'relationship' goes. Whether it's one of love, or casual sex, once the two people are pulling the old leverage crap, it does become a cheap pseudo version of an actual mutual exchange/relationship.

 

If you really feel that way, no doubt you'll be fine with the idea of doing away with divorce laws and child support laws. We have to get rid of that awful leverage, after all.

 

And on a personal level, I find withholding affection and sex, or attention to a person, to get what one wants, to be repugnant. And I have a verrry low tolerance for it.

 

I'm glad to hear it.

 

I think it's convienent for you, Blue, to think all women treat sexuality in the way you describe, because it brings it back to women basically acting like prostitutes again. Justifies how you already look at women. It's circular. "well, they act like hoes, gonna treat em like they deserve" kind of thinking. And since you specifically only seek out women who would tolerate the behavior you exhibit, circular again. Your experiences reconfirm for you that women, are indeed, all prostitutes at aheart.

 

Women are full-fledged people, as far as I'm concerned...but sex is the only use I have for them (or for human beings in general). If I were to go to a buffet restaurant and only eat dessert, it doesn't mean that I think it's a dessert-only restaurant...that's just the only part I'm interested in.

[Blue Spiral]

I'm continuing to hook up with both DAISY and FIONA...though I'm still not getting to see FIONA as much as I'd like to. Granted, DAISY is fairly in-demand, as well. With all the competition, I'm having to initiate/pursue more than I'd like to, and I'm getting kind of tired of it. I may just stop trying and go back to being celibate. My interest-level in other people fluctuates wildly, so there's no telling what I'll do.

 

Football season is back! Thank god.

 

Also in the "thank god" category: my work-related nightmare may finally be over, and it may have turned out much better than I'd hoped. I say "may" because I'm not 100% sure, but it's looking extremely good.

 

I'm usually an extremely cautious person...but I let myself be impulsive, the other day. I actually flirted with a woman in public. I knew that nothing would come of it--she was extremely out of my league--but I think it went pretty well nonetheless.

 

I may be in the best shape of my adult life. And though I've always been extremely skinny, I may actually be a bit too underweight...I'd better have some cookies to compensate.

[Patrick974]

 

I'm usually an extremely cautious person...but I let myself be impulsive, the other day. I actually flirted with a woman in public. I knew that nothing would come of it--she was extremely out of my league--but I think it went pretty well nonetheless.

 

Technically, no one is out of your league. Ive seen too many gorgeous women and handsome men with people supposedly out of their league as you put it to count. And actually finding a woman offline has something more satisfying for me... I mean, no pic of me. No nickname. Just me and a woman who likes me for who I am offline. It doesnt happen often but it remains my best memories.

[Blue Spiral]

Technically, no one is out of your league. Ive seen too many gorgeous women and handsome men with people supposedly out of their league as you put it to count.

 

I'll respectfully disagree. I think that there are exceptions, and flukes, but I'm a big believer in the "league" concept. I've just seen too much evidence of it.

 

Granted, I'm speaking in regards to men. For women, the league issue is much different. I routinely see average/above-average guys with women that, at least physically, are far, far inferior to them. I almost never see the reverse. Generalization time: men usually have to settle for less, while women can let men compete over them and choose from the best. There are so many desperate-for-sex men out there that many women end up with an inflated sense of self-worth. "Wow, look at all these guys that want to get with me! I must be hot!" They're not, but the guys are desperate, so...

 

And actually finding a woman offline has something more satisfying for me... I mean, no pic of me. No nickname. Just me and a woman who likes me for who I am offline. It doesnt happen often but it remains my best memories.

 

I am not built for finding women offline. Of course, I don't find anything "satisfying" about the chase, even though men are supposed to love it. When it comes to finding women, I care more about the ends than the means. Online, offline...if I were good at both, I'd do whichever was easiest. I don't think it'd make any difference, at least for me.

[Batya33]

I don't think anyone likes chasing anyone else. I think men who want a long term relationship often enjoy asking a woman out and making a fun plan to do something together and get to know each other. And it feels good when she says yes. Common sense.

[Patrick974]

I am not built for finding women offline. Of course, I don't find anything "satisfying" about the chase, even though men are supposed to love it. When it comes to finding women, I care more about the ends than the means. Online, offline...if I were good at both, I'd do whichever was easiest. I don't think it'd make any difference, at least for me.

 

Ive never chased women offline either. I should have phrased this better. Im talking about random encounters... Like the one you mention and the flirting thing. If we are talking about pubs its a different thing. Im an introvert and just cant 'chase' women in the street even on a good day. Sometimes when there is chemistry with a woman in a situation, Ill do my best. But thats not chasing.

[Fudgie]

I'm like you, BS. I prefer meeting people online vs offline. Of course, I like to meet up in person and such but meeting online is way better, IMO, because you get to screen people out early and not waste time. Traditional "offline" means that things are more drawn out. I'd rather look at a profile and spend 5 seconds figuring out that they aren't right for me, rather than 1-3 dates later. That's just a waste of time.

[Blue Spiral]

I don't think anyone likes chasing anyone else. I think men who want a long term relationship often enjoy asking a woman out and making a fun plan to do something together and get to know each other. And it feels good when she says yes. Common sense.

 

Huh. In Miss Marple's thread, you said:

 

I knew very few women who had healthy long term relationships when they did most of the asking out or even half of the asking out in the beginning. I knew many women who had flings, casual sex and got jaded/cynical by behaving exactly as they would in their careers. Many of those women lied to themselves about wanting an "equal" relationship where they would ask out the guy as much as they were asked out -usually that revelation came when they did not get a call for another date or after they decided to have sex early on when that behavior was not being themselves but was an attempt to get the guy to be interested (I think casual sex is fine just not when one person is dishonest with themselves or the other person).

 

So it sounds like you believe in gender roles, on some level--that men are more satisfied if we're the ones that pursue. Elsewhere in that thread, some stated that men view women as prizes to be won/earned, with the implication being that it's normal/natural. Look, I'm an extremely sexual guy, and I'm so blinded by the physical that I tend to ignore the rest. But I try not to view women as some sort of "achievement", i.e. something that's tied into the male-oriented idea of success in life. I'd be thrilled if a woman showed any degree of interest in me, whether it was minor or over-the-top.

 

Ive never chased women offline either. I should have phrased this better. Im talking about random encounters... Like the one you mention and the flirting thing. If we are talking about pubs its a different thing. Im an introvert and just cant 'chase' women in the street even on a good day. Sometimes when there is chemistry with a woman in a situation, Ill do my best. But thats not chasing.

 

I see what you're talking about. I've done that...maybe twice in my life, with the second time being just the other day. (I'm an introvert as well, btw.)

 

I'm like you, BS. I prefer meeting people online vs offline. Of course, I like to meet up in person and such but meeting online is way better, IMO, because you get to screen people out early and not waste time. Traditional "offline" means that things are more drawn out. I'd rather look at a profile and spend 5 seconds figuring out that they aren't right for me, rather than 1-3 dates later. That's just a waste of time.

 

I hereby welcome to you to Team Internet! We can sit around in an antiquated chat room and make vague Oregon Trail references...

 

Seriously, whenever people complain about online dating and the like, I remember how doomed I was before I got online. If not for the 'net...god, I don't even want to imagine. When I see people making the claim that the 'net has "stunted" social skills, and that people would have to learn them if they had to be out in reality, I remember how that never happened for me. My social skills were never there to begin with, and I was drowning until I got online.

[Fudgie]

I love the Internet and I truly don't know what I'd do without it. Nah, I'm not a social media addict or anything like that but most of my relationships originated on the net, I've made friends with the net, I used the internet to research, to learn, to explore, to read about new ideas, etc.

 

I can't stand people who are like "Oh, the Internet is terrible"....if you are under 80 and think that, go live under a rock, seriously. People like that drive me nuts. They probably opposed vaccines, sliced bread, and cars too.

 

The Internet is like a giant collective consciousness. It's fascinating.

 

Yes, I understand that as a female, I have it inherently easier when it comes to OLD but I consider it to be a good thing, not a bad thing. It's great! How would I have met people otherwise? Go to parties? Ha!

 

Internet is AMAZING for people who are lacking in social skills. I can be pretty awkward. It's been very helpful for me.

[Patrick974]

Its about balancing your life. I like Internet too. Wouldnt be here otherwise... And likewise Blue Im cyclical with OLD. I open up and close accounts every other months when I get tired of it.

[Fudgie]

I don't envy you or BS, Patrick. It's hard being a man in this dating world, especially with OLD.

 

I met the guy I'm seeing now (K) on OKC and it startled me how different our experiences were.

I was on OKC for very little time and had over 100 likes.

He was on OKC for a total of 6 years (couple years worth of breaks in there) and he had...20 likes.

 

And no, I'm not "hot" looking or anything. It's just a sausage market on dating sites. Usually quite easy for women (especially if they are younger, I imagine it's harder for an older lady), and it's way harder for men.

 

Man, it's hard.

[Patrick974]

Fudgie. Thats correct but we were born men. If Im a 7.5/8 on a good day I still dont get as much attention as a woman equally rated. Im not that bad with OLD though. Some (many?) guys my age have never even dated or hooked up. Im far from this.

[Fudgie]

Yeah I rate lower and for the brief time I did OLD, it was so crazy how much attention I got. I truly don't believe I deserve that attention as I'm not appealing to most men in person. I can see why some take it to be ego-inflating. If I go out to a bar, I will get 1, maybe 2, guys hitting on me if I go alone or if I go with a SO and he walks away for a bit. But if it were the OLD-equivalent of attention, I'd be getting swarmed by 5 men/min. It's just not realistic and it's weird.

[Batya33]

"So it sounds like you believe in gender roles, on some level--that men are more satisfied if we're the ones that pursue. Elsewhere in that thread, some stated that men view women as prizes to be won/earned, with the implication being that it's normal/natural. Look, I'm an extremely sexual guy, and I'm so blinded by the physical that I tend to ignore the rest. But I try not to view women as some sort of "achievement", i.e. something that's tied into the male-oriented idea of success in life. I'd be thrilled if a woman showed any degree of interest in me, whether it was minor or over-the-top."

 

What I wrote was far narrower and more specific -when I dated -from 1980-2005 - men were more comfortable doing more of the asking out in the beginning. if they wanted a long term relationship. That is all. I think women should show interest, flirt, show enthusiasm and appreciation, start conversations with men they find interesting and/or attractive, etc. In your case since you are not looking for an LTR I think a woman who is also looking for something casual should ask men out, be as up front as possible about what she is looking for (meaning you don't have to be crass with a complete stranger but there are ways of making clear you're not looking for something serious).

 

When I wanted a fling on a summer vacation, I went over to a guy I thought was cute, I used the oldest line in the book -a variation of "you look familiar!" struck up a conversation then invited him for a walk on the beach. We kissed (he initiated the kiss, I set the stage however) and it was very sweet/romantic.

 

Then I "confessed" the line I used and he thought it was funny. The next day he started pursuing my roommate who was fairly distant to/indifferent to him. I didn't feel rejected -maybe the slightest twinge - and I wasn't the least bit surprised he was more interested in her -he was a fairly traditional guy, and sure he probably found her more attractive (really not sure, objectively, who was more attractive) and I am sure he found it more interesting/intriguing that she was not as forward as me. Only one example of many. Of course I didn't "ask him out" but really there wasn't an opportunity at a beach resort -on a practical level.

 

I don't think anyone should chase. And I think both men and women should be viewed as special -as a prize even- if what you're looking for is long term. Not in a game playing way, in a putting yourself out there/giving way. Maybe prize has the wrong connotation -but certainly special.

[Blue Spiral]

I met the guy I'm seeing now (K) on OKC and it startled me how different our experiences were.

I was on OKC for very little time and had over 100 likes.

He was on OKC for a total of 6 years (couple years worth of breaks in there) and he had...20 likes.

 

That sounds about right, sadly.

 

There are times when I want to just give up on the whole thing and go back to chatting with cam models. I actually like talking with them...

[Batya33]

I received and sent many emails on OLD sites (back then I think there were "winks" or adding someone to a favorites list -I mostly ignored those but if I felt like emailing anyway it didn't hurt that he winked). I didn't pay attention to the volume of emails because so many of them were irrelevant or silly. I went on line at least once a day when I was active, looked within my search parameters and contacted anyone I found interesting. I responded to all normal emails even if it was a thanks but no thanks. I met over 100 men in person through on line dating sites and also did personal ads way back when. Several of my friends met their spouses/partners that way. I knew very few people who went on those sites looking for casual dates or sex partners.

 

I have a friend who is looking for friendship/casual dating on OLD sites right now -she is in her mid-50s, just ended an LTR, is divorced and has no interest in remarrying or living with someone again. So far she's met one man in person within the last month or so and is in touch with a few more. She is very pretty but in a natural way -very fit, no real makeup, looks young, is honest about her age.

 

I don't think OLD sites are worth the effort and aggravation for other than long term relationships.

[Fudgie]

I just love how you can just put a lot of info in a profile and screen people out quickly. It just saves a lot of time.

[Blue Spiral]

I just love how you can just put a lot of info in a profile and screen people out quickly. It just saves a lot of time.

 

My profile is practically empty. Granted, I don't read women's profiles, either...I always go right to the pictures.

[Fudgie]

My profile is practically empty. Granted, I don't read women's profiles, either...I always go right to the pictures.

 

That's just another way to screen, and isn't it great? If you see a woman and think "yuck" you don't have to message or meet her. If you didn't have the internet, you'd be stuck with paper personal ads without pictures.

 

Of course, granted, that's assuming that everyone is accurate with their pictures. And we know that's not always true.

[Blue Spiral]

That's just another way to screen, and isn't it great? If you see a woman and think "yuck" you don't have to message or meet her. If you didn't have the internet, you'd be stuck with paper personal ads without pictures.

 

Of course, granted, that's assuming that everyone is accurate with their pictures. And we know that's not always true.

 

Don't get me started. That's part of why I don't bother putting a picture up--Skyping is a lot more honest. (Nine times out of ten, my Skyping results in a response of "Wow, you're really cute/hot, why don't you have a picture up??")

 

Of course, the downside of not reading profiles is that you sometimes accidentally hit on women in relationships...and the upside of that is that, when those relationships end, some of them get back in contact with you...

[Batya33]

I met several men whose photos were inaccurate, once in a scary way (half his face was deeply scarred and paralyzed, and that half was concealed in the photo), but mostly it was a photo that was taken before the person put on a great deal of weight. I didn't mind seeing that the man was now bald/balding but wondered about why the decision to mislead. I could screen out based on a photo but did not try to gague attraction that way -I needed to meet the person to know if there was a spark/attraction.