Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Blue Spiral]

I don't think that's typical of most woman, but I applaud you for being that courageous.

 

Thank you, I was just about to point that out.

[Batya33]

That's really weird to me. I wouldn't think I'd have any problem at all with a girl making the first move. It'd be a damn sight better than trying to read the more subtle signs that are supposed to let you know it's okay to express interest.

 

I'm sure I've maybe just picked some of the wrong ones, but my experience has been that if the woman you approach thinks you're beneath her from a quick physical assessment, then she won't just politely refuse, but she'll make a big stink. I call it "creep shaming" and definitely increases approach anxiety.

 

I am not talking about making the first move -I am talking about a woman who asks out a man for a first date and especially if she asks him out for most of the first few dates. I haven't dated in 10 years but from what I've heard it hasn't changed much as far as men being flattered by being asked out but not choosing those women for long term potential. I can't swear to that though.

 

No experience with creep shaming -I think that has more to do with the specific individual behaving in a rude way than anything to do with dating.

 

I don't believe in subtle signs either. I think women should show interest directly. All else equal it often works better if the man asks the woman for the first date (unless they're just looking for a casual fling). I did ask many men to meet me through dating sites. Then I let them ask me for the first date after meeting. I would have found dating easier if men reacted more comfortably to a woman doing the asking out.

[TMifune]

Can you improve yourself at all?

 

Lose weight, gain muscle, maybe a little extra muscle, clothes, a haircut that goes with your face, maybe some facial hair?

 

Oh and you know all this talk about confidence? You need to walk around with your head up, shoulders back and a little arrogance wouldn't kill you.

 

I was doing a martial art that focus on posture and alignment, there's no problem there. My posture is good, my head's almost always up and I'm one of the few people at work that doesn't seem to avoid eye contact like you can catch the HIV through it.

 

Arrogance? That's part of the problem. I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not to get attention and I definitely don't want to prey on women who mistake arrogance for confidence.....eventually they'll take my humility as weakness and leave me anyway.

[jesus83]

I was doing a martial art that focus on posture and alignment, there's no problem there. My posture is good, my head's almost always up and I'm one of the few people at work that doesn't seem to avoid eye contact like you can catch the HIV through it.

 

Arrogance? That's part of the problem. I don't want to pretend to be something I'm not to get attention and I definitely don't want to prey on women who mistake arrogance for confidence.....eventually they'll take my humility as weakness and leave me anyway.

 

Do you have low self-esteem?

 

Confident and agorgant are a slippery slope.

[TMifune]

What do you mean by first move? Because I kinda meant the initial approach in real life, or the initial contact maybe in ILD. Just something that really let's me know I'm not gonna have to deal with her acting like she thinks I'm a date rapist for asking her to coffee. something that says "I'm receptive to spending some time with you"

[TMifune]

Do you have low self-esteem?

 

Confident and agorgant are a slippery slope.

 

I have a catalog of evidence that my advances are unwanted. Is that the same as low self-esteem?

 

I'm just saying I haven't noticed any indications of interest since the ex, and for a long time before her.

[Batya33]

What do you mean by first move? Because I kinda meant the initial approach in real life, or the initial contact maybe in ILD. Just something that really let's me know I'm not gonna have to deal with her acting like she thinks I'm a date rapist for asking her to coffee. something that says "I'm receptive to spending some time with you"

 

Honestly if that is your assumption/attitude that's going to come through loud and clear- turn-off.

 

First move - approaching a person and starting a conversation, asking a man to dance or to participate in whatever activity is going on. I don't consider writing to men on a dating site a "move" because the man is a complete stranger and sending a message/email is simply inquiring as to whether there is potential to meet in person in real life. Before you meet in person it's not dating or much to do with dating.

[TMifune]

Honestly if that is your assumption/attitude that's going to come through loud and clear- turn-off.

 

First move - approaching a person and starting a conversation, asking a man to dance or to participate in whatever activity is going on. I don't consider writing to men on a dating site a "move" because the man is a complete stranger and sending a message/email is simply inquiring as to whether there is potential to meet in person in real life. Before you meet in person it's not dating or much to do with dating.

 

But again, that means there are millions of slightly less assertive really "good" guys out there who just flat out aren't dateable because the think the defines dateable is his ability to not only make the first move, but not give off any single hint that he might be nervous making the first move. I mean God, try telling someone that they're giving a speech in front of 30,000 people and then tell them "this is a rough crowed and they'll turn on you if they sense the slightest bit of nervousness". I mean that's 100% guaranteed to make just about anyone more nervous, right?

 

Wait, so basically wanting someone to be receptive to you communicating with them is a turn off? If you have to truly not care if they want to talk to you, why do you even want to talk to them?

[TMifune]

Thank you, I was just about to point that out.

 

I'm kinda co-opting your thread, let me know if it bothers you and you want me to stop ;-)

[Batya33]

But again, that means there are millions of slightly less assertive really "good" guys out there who just flat out aren't dateable because the think the defines dateable is his ability to not only make the first move, but not give off any single hint that he might be nervous making the first move. I mean God, try telling someone that they're giving a speech in front of 30,000 people and then tell them "this is a rough crowed and they'll turn on you if they sense the slightest bit of nervousness". I mean that's 100% guaranteed to make just about anyone more nervous, right?

 

Wait, so basically wanting someone to be receptive to you communicating with them is a turn off? If you have to truly not care if they want to talk to you, why do you even want to talk to them?

 

I don't think you understand my point so I'll try to clarify but just once more since it really is kind of of topic. Of course making the first move is nerve-wracking. My husband was very shy the first time around we dated and I know he was nervous to ask me to have lunch with him. I think there are many people who are shy/not assertive and, time and again, when it comes to men, even a really shy man will, if he is interested in going on a date with a woman, find a way to ask her out on a date- -whether it's more of a group outing, or an official date. It might take him a bit longer, etc but it will happen if he is into going on that date. I dated many shy men. I was very good at drawing them out.

 

My point about the turn-off in your last post is that if you're going to assume that a woman you approach is in turn going to assume you're a date rapist until proven otherwise, that assumption will come through loud and clear -in a negative way -when you interact with her.

 

My best advice is meeting people in a setting where you're engaged in a common activity or interest, not at a loud, crowded bar, where conversation happens naturally. That way no one is really approaching or feeling like they have to make a "first move". For example, last year I volunteered twice at a pledge drive for a local radio station. Often we were on the phone of course but we also broke for lunch and had down time. During the down time, people chatted in a very relaxed, natural way. There were of course easy ice breakers because we're all fans of the radio station and it's interesting to hear what drew the person to be involved in the pledge drive. As a result of the drive I was given free tickets to a show where I again met fellow volunteers. It can be that simple, and natural IMO.

[happy_snapper]

The thing is that my experience is the complete opposite. Every girl I made the first move with, things lasted a couple of dates at most. The girl who approached me first... still together 7 and a half months later.

Most people you ask out aren't going to be right. I can't see how it would make any difference being a woman. What you describe is exactly how it is for men. Just because the woman makes the move, doesn't have any bearing on how those two people go together.

To me your experience just sounds like a woman getting a taste of how the world of dating is for a man.

[TMifune]

My point about the turn-off in your last post is that if you're going to assume that a woman you approach is in turn going to assume you're a date rapist until proven otherwise, that assumption will come through loud and clear -in a negative way -when you interact with her.

 

I don't think they're going to assume I'm a date rapist. What I'm saying is that I have had women react with widening eyes, a shocked absolutely panicked expression, they look visibly repulsed and somewhat afraid. See that a few times and anyone's confidence would plummet, I'm certain.

[Blue Spiral]

I'm kinda co-opting your thread, let me know if it bothers you and you want me to stop ;-)

 

It doesn't bother me at all; I think it's extremely on-topic, given the issues I've been discussing.

[Batya33]

The thing is that my experience is the complete opposite. Every girl I made the first move with, things lasted a couple of dates at most. The girl who approached me first... still together 7 and a half months later.

Most people you ask out aren't going to be right. I can't see how it would make any difference being a woman. What you describe is exactly how it is for men. Just because the woman makes the move, doesn't have any bearing on how those two people go together.

To me your experience just sounds like a woman getting a taste of how the world of dating is for a man.

 

Interesting! In my direct and indirect experience - on all sides of the issue -the general consensus was that even if a man is potentially interested in a woman if she asks him out -especially more than once (meaning for most of the first few dates -not more than once as in "persistent") - it makes him question his initial interest. Not a good thing for those all important first dates/first impressions.

 

Obviously if the two are long time friends before or have dated in the past then maybe that wouldn't be the case but since first impressions, initial interest can be so fragile and changeable on both sides the consensus when I was dating was that the man needs to pursue more in that one area -asking out the woman (i.e. she can of course "approach" him first, flirt like crazy, invite him to group outings, etc) or he might be uncomfortable about the dating situation. I don't mean to say that men are like robots or programmed I am just describing what the consensus was when I last dated (and as I wrote I have less experience now but basically hear the same kind of thing many times over - just not as involved in that scene anymore!).

 

Certainly not saying every time but since I wanted a long term relationship leading to marriage I wasn't going to risk turning the guy off by asking him out first. I wasn't scared to in the least -I'm an extrovert, had to make the first, second and third moves in many areas of my life) I did end up doing that a few times very obviously and I remember, for example, my good guy friend telling me on his end that it was really cool/flattering to be asked out but that it also made him uncomfortable, less motivated to get to know the woman.

 

I hope things have changed -as I wrote -i would have asked out many more men had I thought it was an effective way to find something long term. It was fine to do that if you just wanted a summer romance fling or similar.

[Batya33]

I don't think they're going to assume I'm a date rapist. What I'm saying is that I have had women react with widening eyes, a shocked absolutely panicked expression, they look visibly repulsed and somewhat afraid. See that a few times and anyone's confidence would plummet, I'm certain.

Then I would evaluate your approach -are you standing too close - staring at them or making inappropriate eye contact? Where do you approach and what do you say?

Many things in my life shook me up. Depends on how badly you want your goal and then, as I tell my young son, you get up, brush yourself off and try those elusive monkey bars again. Not much different, believe me.

[Fudgie]

Maybe it's an age thing. My grandmother's and mother's generation (as evidenced by what they told me) was always "Wait for the man to show interest in you, don't show interest until he does" and there was a general expectation that the man had to be the pursuer.

 

I am not so sure it's the case with younger generations, particularly with OLD. Lines are often blurred now. So I'm thinking many men from a more recent time feel different about the women showing interest first.

 

TMIfune, Where are you meeting these women? Barring a man coming up to me and getting my in my face or being really gropey, I couldn't imagine acting that way toward him even if inside I wasn't interested in the least. It's called having a little decorum and not being rude. They sound pretty young, IMO.

[Batya33]

Maybe it's an age thing. My grandmother's and mother's generation (as evidenced by what they told me) was always "Wait for the man to show interest in you, don't show interest until he does" and there was a general expectation that the man had to be the pursuer.

 

I am not so sure it's the case with younger generations, particularly with OLD. Lines are often blurred now. So I'm thinking many men from a more recent time feel different about the women showing interest first.

 

TMIfune, Where are you meeting these women? Barring a man coming up to me and getting my in my face or being really gropey, I couldn't imagine acting that way toward him even if inside I wasn't interested in the least. It's called having a little decorum and not being rude. They sound pretty young, IMO.

 

 

My point was narrower. I think women should show interest and including back then. I was simply talking about showing interest by asking the man out on a date. Other kinds of interest I think are important especially with shy guys (although my very shy husband finally asked me out, he said, because I touched his arm lightly and for a second, during a conversation we were having at a work event -I didn't remember doing that).

 

I think men have almost always loved being asked out. That was never the issue. Interestingly, even since I was dating 10 years ago I haven't heard of any huge changes in the asking out arena (as far as whether it's advisable in the beginning) but I might be more out of the loop now!

[Fudgie]

Ah yeah. Yes, I suppose there is a difference in showing interest and then asking men out initially. I've shown interest in the past but I normally don't ask out first. I don't really have a reason for this other than I don't like to (Who wants to be rejected? Not me) and I normally don't have to.

 

I think I talked about it in my journal but I had a bit of a mental epiphany a few days ago and went on OKC to find a dating partner, nothing serious, just wanted to have fun. I found a very nice local guy in 1-2 hours. I showed some interest but he definitely asked me out first and he has initiated the future plans and suggested concrete dates.

 

Why do you think asking guys out initially turns them off? Just curious. I mean, you're not the first person to say that at all so I think it's a real idea I'm just wondering where it comes from.

[Batya33]

So, what I understand and have experienced is that the man then questions why the woman felt the need to do the asking (I don't think asking for a first meet is asking out -that is a stranger who you want to meet to see if there should be a first date in the future) - he doesn't know her well so it makes him wonder if she might be a bit desperate or looking for Mr. Right on Paper, etc. I am somewhat speculating. I know my guy friend expressed it in this way and I've heard that a lot.

 

Also the guy might think it's totally cool how "courageous" it is for a woman to ask him out and might be impressed but in reality, he wants to feel like the man in that particular way. He doesn't want to be "impressed" in that way with his long term partner but he might like to be friends with that woman or date her casually because she's really "courageous" (I don't find it particularly courageous to ask a person out - I did it because he had not yet asked me and I liked him, simply put).

It also could be because the men I dated and met were in general more traditional than otherwise - but I had friends from all walks of life. I remember meeting a really cool guy when we were in our early 20s - he'd been a heavy partier in college, heavy into music, the music scene and when he met me he asked me to basically show him the ropes of traditional dating. Kind of kicked in for him that now that he was done with college those college hook ups were more in the past and he wanted to properly date. We dated for 3 years,

[Fudgie]

I guess that makes sense, worrying if a woman is desperate or not. I haven't really thought about it that way.

 

It kind of sucks that it falls a lot to the guys to make the first move towards a date. I'm pretty glad I'm a lady.

[annie24]

I guess that makes sense, worrying if a woman is desperate or not. I haven't really thought about it that way.

 

It kind of sucks that it falls a lot to the guys to make the first move towards a date. I'm pretty glad I'm a lady.

 

 

The flip side is that women have to work twice as hard in their professional careers to be taken seriously and treated with respect. We see this all the time: a man does something and he's called "leadership material." A woman acts the same way, and she's called "bossy." Studies have proved it: identical resumes, but just changing the name from "Jennifer" to "Jonathan." Jonathan scores higher for competence, knowledge, and gets a higher starting salary.

[Fudgie]

The flip side is that women have to work twice as hard in their professional careers to be taken seriously and treated with respect. We see this all the time: a man does something and he's called "leadership material." A woman acts the same way, and she's called "bossy." Studies have proved it: identical resumes, but just changing the name from "Jennifer" to "Jonathan." Jonathan scores higher for competence, knowledge, and gets a higher starting salary.

 

I don't know if I feel that way given what I've seen, working in healthcare. Many people in administration here, including women, were the "bossy" sorts but they had great results so they rose to leadership positions. My boss is like that. Perhaps I will feel different in several years but that's not my experience has been.

[annie24]

I don't know if I feel that way given what I've seen, working in healthcare. Many people in administration here, including women, were the "bossy" sorts but they had great results so they rose to leadership positions. My boss is like that. Perhaps I will feel different in several years but that's not my experience has been.

 

I think you may see more women in leadership some parts of the healthcare field (especially nursing which has always been female-dominated), but if we look at jobs overall and many different fields, it's still just men men men. Now, things are changing and that is great, but sexism is still alive and well.

[Fudgie]

I think there are many reasons why there are still fewer women in leadership positions, some of that is sexism and some of that is that many women want to have children and it's hard to juggle a very demanding job and family life at the same time, so career can take a bit of a back seat for a while. It's very hard to "have it all". Overall, I still think I am very fortunate to be a woman in the US and I've felt that way for a long time.

[annie24]

I think there are many reasons why there are still fewer women in leadership positions, some of that is sexism and some of that is that many women want to have children and it's hard to juggle a very demanding job and family life at the same time, so career can take a bit of a back seat for a while. It's very hard to "have it all". Overall, I still think I am very fortunate to be a woman in the US and I've felt that way for a long time.

 

Men can have careers and families and no one ever accuses them of "wanting to have it all." In fact, men with families get promoted faster too (seen as more stable and responsible).

 

I know women in the US have it much better than many many other countries, but in a lot of ways, we are still struggling. I see it all the time in my own workplace (science).