Blue Spiral's Adventures in Solitude

[Fudgie]

I agree with Batya that you need to find a balance somewhere. I'm not saying you have to even like woman or be with them in a relationship or otherwise. By all means, continue to do what you're doing. However, it may benefit to you to come to peace with things. Maybe it's time to sift through that dormant crap so if you must talk to women either online or offline, you won't feel so angry and bitter and you can continue to live your (relatively) female free life.

 

It's for your own peace and comfort really.

[Blue Spiral]

It sounds like it's your gut/insides screaming at you that you have to find a workable balance where you interact in a healthy way with women.

 

Why do I need to interact with women at all?

 

It's easier to stay angry in a way because finding that balance given your mindset might be a challenge but that's my take on why you have that overwhelming anger -nothing to do with women as a group.

 

If you're saying that my mindset is why I'm angry, and not my experiences with women...well, I disagree, obviously. My mindset came about because of those experiences.

 

I agree with Batya that you need to find a balance somewhere. I'm not saying you have to even like woman or be with them in a relationship or otherwise. By all means, continue to do what you're doing. However, it may benefit to you to come to peace with things. Maybe it's time to sift through that dormant crap so if you must talk to women either online or offline, you won't feel so angry and bitter and you can continue to live your (relatively) female free life.

 

It's for your own peace and comfort really.

 

I can change my attitude (for the most part, anyway), but I can't change certain circumstances--and those circumstances end up ruining my attitude. I should probably just avoid those circumstances, I guess.

[annie24]

Why do I need to interact with women at all?

 

I mean, you have to live. I don't really know the nature of your work (I think you said you do a lot of work from home?) I just spent my morning working alongside men, teaching them how to do stuff. They're not interacting with me because I'm a woman, but because I have a skill set that they need to learn, and there aren't any men available on campus to teach them how to do it instead.

[Batya33]

I mean, you have to live. I don't really know the nature of your work (I think you said you do a lot of work from home?) I just spent my morning working alongside men, teaching them how to do stuff. They're not interacting with me because I'm a woman, but because I have a skill set that they need to learn, and there aren't any men available on campus to teach them how to do it instead.

 

Right-that's sort of what I meant.

 

Your experiences didn't make you have this mindset -you chose to react in this way and harbor these hostile feelings.

 

If I had bad experiences with members of a certain minority group should I choose to spend my life being angry at that group and refusing to interact with that group? I could make that choice - but I also could make a different choice. So can you.

[Fudgie]

Can you please elaborate on the circumstances that drive you mad now that you are living a mostly female-free life? Is there something that women are doing that's driving you nuts?

[Blue Spiral]

I mean, you have to live. I don't really know the nature of your work (I think you said you do a lot of work from home?) I just spent my morning working alongside men, teaching them how to do stuff. They're not interacting with me because I'm a woman, but because I have a skill set that they need to learn, and there aren't any men available on campus to teach them how to do it instead.

 

I can interact with women in a professional context. I don't have to do it very often, though.

 

Your experiences didn't make you have this mindset -you chose to react in this way and harbor these hostile feelings.

 

That's a chicken-or-the-egg situation. We obviously disagree. For the record, if a dog bites me, I don't choose to say "Ow!" Pain is pain, and my reaction is going to be natural and honest.

 

If I had bad experiences with members of a certain minority group should I choose to spend my life being angry at that group and refusing to interact with that group? I could make that choice - but I also could make a different choice. So can you.

 

I am not touching that analogy with a ten foot pole.

 

That said, I actually agree that we shouldn't generalize about people--which sort of puts me at odds with the men's movement, at least in that area. I think we should treat people as individuals, and not make assumptions about them. This is despite the fact that, in my day-to-day life, I always kept running into the same problems over and over again, and all women did seem to be/act the same. I know that isn't actually true, but I've almost never seen any firsthand evidence. It must be a regional thing or something.

 

Can you please elaborate on the circumstances that drive you mad now that you are living a mostly female-free life? Is there something that women are doing that's driving you nuts?

 

No, they aren't doing anything--granted, I'm not giving them a chance to, strictly out of psychological self-defense. I just struggle to deal with the knowledge that I have.

[Batya33]

We all choose how to react to our feelings and to situations. It's simply human. You've made the choice to react to your experiences with individual women by deciding that all women act that way unless somehow you get evidence to the contrary - so women as a group are guilty until proven innocent because you believe that what certain individuals do everyone in the gender does? That's certainly an easy way out and of course my analogy about minorities is perfectly apt.

 

Of course it hurts if a dog bites you - your body's reaction is to feel pain. That feeling is not controllable -but your subsequent reaction to that feeling is. You can say "ow" at the moment and then choose to move on from dwelling on what happened - or you can choose to dwell on what happened and decide that all dogs must be biters at all times so you will avoid all situations where you might be in contact with dogs. Or you can make a different choice.

 

The other issue is that you are assuming that the knowledge you have is accurate, that it applies to all women, and that it justifies the level of anger and hostility you feel.

 

If you make a different choice you -like every other human, not just you individually -risk being vulnerable to being hurt, rejected, disapproved of. You also have the chance to experience peace ,joy, love, like, belly laughs, etc. Seems to me your anger is far more about being angry at yourself for not taking the chance to connect with women (and I don't mean romantically - in any way) and instead choosing to justify the cop-out by relying on individual past experiences, "knowledge" and generalizations.

[Fudgie]

I think ultimately, you need to become at peace with your choice. Whether that means cutting out ENA and your fwb friends or doing what Batya said and learning to overtime your bitterness and disappointment.

 

Yes, women do a lot of things that suck. I guess I could say the same for men. I'm not going to lie and say that if you keep looking, you'll find women who don't annoy the living crap out of you. I have no idea if you will or not so I am not going to BS you.

 

I think, ultimately, if you want to branch out and maybe not live completely female free, well, you are going to need to let go of the bitterness and come to place that you may or may not find a female that you enjoy spending time with.

[Blue Spiral]

Seems to me your anger is far more about being angry at yourself for not taking the chance to connect with women (and I don't mean romantically - in any way)

 

Actually, if anything, I'm angry at myself for the opposite--I've spent far too much time thinking about women (outside of a sexual capacity). As I said earlier in the thread, I wish that I could time-travel and tell Younger Me not to bother. Even right now...I could be enjoying myself, but here I am talking/thinking about this crap.

 

I think ultimately, you need to become at peace with your choice.

 

I'm as at peace with my choice as I can be, considering that it wasn't entirely my choice. It's just the least-bad option. The thing I actually want is basically impossible.

[Batya33]

"I've spent far too much time thinking about women (outside of a sexual capacity). "

 

Yes, I understand that it is self-anger because you know the misplaced anger towards women results in this kind of internal war (because what you're trying to do isn't consistent with healthy living, IMO).

 

I think you can get what you want in some fashion if you are willing to put in the effort and take baby steps. First you have to accept 100% that it is entirely your choice - your mindset and reactions now - despite what happened in the past. If you hold onto the victimhood it aint gonna happen.

 

I agree with Fudgie.

[Blue Spiral]

My anger isn't misplaced, and, unfortunately, I can't get what I want, because it just isn't realistic.

[Batya33]

My anger isn't misplaced, and, unfortunately, I can't get what I want, because it just isn't realistic.

 

Many people have to accept that they can't always get what they want. Anger is really bad for you physically (and emotionally) - but it is safer in the sense that you can justify rejecting whole groups of people based on your anger. The easy way out in that way, the hard way out given the health consequences.

[Blue Spiral]

I was going to say this in another thread, but I should probably stop dragging it off-topic:

 

When I was younger, I listened to what women said they wanted in a man, and did everything I could to match that. It either didn't work, or it didn't work for long. They'd always go after guys that were the exact opposite of what they said they wanted.

 

When I stopped listening to women, and started looking at what they did...well, it became a lot easier, after that.

[Batya33]

I was going to say this in another thread, but I should probably stop dragging it off-topic:

 

When I was younger, I listened to what women said they wanted in a man, and did everything I could to match that. It either didn't work, or it didn't work for long. They'd always go after guys that were the exact opposite of what they said they wanted.

 

When I stopped listening to women, and started looking at what they did...well, it became a lot easier, after that.

 

But who is "they" -the individual women you know and know of, right? You can't possibly be referring to the entire gender?

[Blue Spiral]

But who is "they" -the individual women you know and know of, right? You can't possibly be referring to the entire gender?

 

Pretty much every woman I've ever met. (With a few exceptions--hi, Fudgie!)

 

I suspect it applies to 90% of your gender.

[Batya33]

Pretty much every woman I've ever met. (With a few exceptions--hi, Fudgie!)

 

I suspect it applies to 90% of your gender.

 

Once again -despite your protesting you don't want to go there - replace women with the name of a minority group - is that a statement you would be comfortable making out loud (or even to yourself other than perhaps as a momentary impulse?).

 

I think that if you're in a situation-romantic or otherwise- where you find yourself being told what the person wants in detail from you (or someone in your role) and then you go and do all those things - that's not going to develop a healthy relationship whether friendship or romantic. Perhaps professional as in finding out everything your boss needs and fulfilling those job-related needs. But not personal. Many people don't know themselves or don't know what they really want - no crime in that. Or they do know but are afraid to express it. No crime in that either.

 

No surprise that the women you referred to went after what you saw as "the opposite" -people change their minds, have an experience that changes them, or perhaps you were particularly attracted to fickle women. The common denominator was you after all since you're referring to your interactions with these particular women you were attracted to.

[Blue Spiral]

Once again -despite your protesting you don't want to go there - replace women with the name of a minority group - is that a statement you would be comfortable making out loud (or even to yourself other than perhaps as a momentary impulse?).

 

Yup. I'd say that probably 70% of men do the same thing--say we want one thing, secretly want another--and the only reason the percentage isn't higher is because we aren't as concerned about what other people think of us. (Women tend to be more concerned with reputation and social status, whereas men don't care if we tick people off.) Come on, guys are always saying that we value A, B, and C in women, only to ditch those values as soon as we come accross a hottie.

 

I think that if you're in a situation-romantic or otherwise- where you find yourself being told what the person wants in detail from you (or someone in your role) and then you go and do all those things - that's not going to develop a healthy relationship whether friendship or romantic. Perhaps professional as in finding out everything your boss needs and fulfilling those job-related needs. But not personal. Many people don't know themselves or don't know what they really want - no crime in that. Or they do know but are afraid to express it. No crime in that either.

 

No surprise that the women you referred to went after what you saw as "the opposite" -people change their minds, have an experience that changes them, or perhaps you were particularly attracted to fickle women. The common denominator was you after all since you're referring to your interactions with these particular women you were attracted to.

 

Uh-huh. Strangely, it's the near-universal experience of pretty much every guy I've ever talked to, as well. Must just be a bunch of isolated coincidences.

[Batya33]

I see you would prefer to hold on to your anger rather than evaluate different alternatives - you've been offered many even if you wish to totally discount mine - I couldn't care less)

 

(I don't agree with your generalizations and of course your experiences do not have to be isolated coincidences or taken to the extremes you have taken them to justify anger against an entire gender). It's your mental/physical health and your life - hopefully your anger doesn't get directed against people in any harmful way to them -if you want to harm yourself, that's your choice as an adult. But it is a choice (which you disagree with also, I get it).

 

Obviously you benefit from holding on to the anger -you get to tell yourself that you're "right" about an entire gender's behavior and bury yourself in "statistics" to "prove" it, you get to tell yourself you're part of some group of men who you believe feel the same as you and for the same reasons, and above all it's really safe -you can use it as an excuse not to take on the challenge of interacting with people.

 

Take care.

[Blue Spiral]

For someone that's allegedly hanging onto his anger, I sure have been happy, lately. Aside from my brief frustrated spell last week, I've had about three awesome weeks in a row. I've gotten a lot done, I've enjoyed myself, and I've maintained discipline in my eating (my already-tiny jeans are starting to fall off, again!). This is despite the fact that circumstances haven't always been cooperating. Annoying stuff has come up, but it's rolled right off of my back.

 

On a probably-related note, two of my former FWBs have gotten back in contact with me. One is (still) looking for a relationship, so I'm trying to let her down gently, but the other is all "let's hook up when I get back in town," and I'm not really sure how to explain my celibacy to her. Good problem to have, at any rate. Also, I was actually hit on offline, though it was by a married woman (lol, just discussed that topic in another thread), and I think I've had more women checking me out, lately. Also, more women are randomly starting conversations with me during the rare moments that I'm actually in public. This is how my life should be: focusing on what I love, and minimal interaction with people, but the option for more. It feels good to have options, period--is this what it's like to be a woman?? (That was weird to type, but, you know what I mean.)

 

You'll note that I never say many good things about myself...but I don't say many bad things, either. I don't really think in those terms. I'll make an exception today, though: as much as I physically enjoy sex, I always had the bad habit of using sex as a tool for validation. Ergo, attractive women being attracted to me = makes me feel extremely good. I can't tell you how many times I've slept with a new FWB and known that, even if she ditched me and it turned out to be a one-time thing, I'd still be happy, because I proved to myself that I could get a woman that attractive. For me, it's always been about the principle of the thing. I know that my worth has to ultimately come from me, but it's nice to get a little external boost now and then.

 

I wish I could take credit for all this...but, at the very least, it's partially because my first ex is increasingly bogged down. I admit, I was/am hung up on her. But she's been in a bad situation (of her own making) for quite a while, and she's getting less attractive all the time, so she's exerting less of a pull on me. For her sake, I hope she makes it harder for me to finally let her go, but I don't anticipate that happening, sadly. So, in that sense, all of this recent happiness has a dark undercurrent to it. It's happening, but one of the reasons that it's happening is because my past is less appealing.

[Batya33]

I'm glad to hear things are going well!

[Blue Spiral]

Things are still going well, but the "former FWBs paying attention to me" ego-boost didn't last that long, sadly.

 

I'm obviously not the type of guy that most women want, so I should've known that their reappearance was about them, as opposed to me. Both former FWBs have a ton of problems, ugh. I had no idea how to react. I'm not very good at talking about serious/emotional stuff, and it was pretty heavy. Then they expect me to talk about my horrible problems, and, um...you know, I don't really have any. I'm not humblebragging; I merely lead an uneventful life. And I'm thankful for that.

 

The funny thing? Even now, when they're at their lowest, they still have men crawling over each other to date them and have sex with them. I wish that women had been fighting over me like that when I was at my lowest...

[faraday]

The men all over them are scavengers. They aren't there to help or lift those women, they're there to take advantage of them and take what they can get. Losers. Bottom of the barrel.

[Blue Spiral]

The men all over them are scavengers. They aren't there to help or lift those women, they're there to take advantage of them and take what they can get. Losers. Bottom of the barrel.

 

That's what I was thinking about doing, but then it got all serious and awkward, and I bailed.

 

In fairness to my competition, though, I got the impression that these women were keeping up appearances with them, so they weren't as fully-informed as I was.

[Blue Spiral]

I wanted to comment on something that ND said to me, but I didn't want to further hijack MM's thread, so:

 

Lenny's an idiot. His previous text to Miss M was a pointless "good morning and have a great week with 'positive energy and smiles'" instead of setting up a date. Total amateur move, as even the most misogynistic PUA expert would agree.

 

Even worse is that he got a**hurt over not getting a response to such a noncommittal message. Why not just send a photo of his pacifier and baby bottle while he's at it?

 

So yeah, Lenny should move on... perhaps to a Men's Rights meeting where they can weep into each others' beards and commiserate on how cruelly the evil female species has destroyed their fragile egos.

 

Point the first: I'm not a PUA. I don't think that other human beings are worth that sort of effort, and I think it's deceptive, anyway. I prefer blunt honesty.

 

Point the second: you're making fun of men that have fragile egos, and I am here to tell you, I have an extremely fragile ego. That's part of why I never dated. Rejection always hurts, no matter how minor it is. I'm a meek, timid, sometimes hypersensitive person. Obviously, a man being that way--let alone admitting to it--doesn't really fit with gender norms. Well, women threw their own gender norms out the window fifty years ago, and I think it's high-time that men did the same. Let individuals be themselves, without worrying about fitting some other person's definition of what a man/woman should be. I'm not some aggressive, take-charge person, and I don't want to be, and I'm sick of apologizing for being the way I am. All of this relationship crap just isn't emotionally safe for guys like me. So, by all means, make fun of Lenny for what you perceive to be mild ego damage. For some of us, it just hurts more, apparently.

[Batya33]

I didn't think Lenny had a fragile ego. I think he enjoyed having a chat buddy through a dating site and telling himself that by doing this he was trying to date/find a relationship. Or he already is in a relationship and wants some fun on the side. I don't see in any of the interactions that Lenny was meek, timid or hypersensitive. He was clear about wanting to chat first, he was clearly unreliable at following through on what he said he wanted and then when he threw her the good morning bone he pouted when she didn't jump at the chance to respond to yet another dead-end message. And MM offered to meet or to make a plan to meet so if he were timid she was willing to take him by the hand.