notalady Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think after pages of discussion, we should put this gift issue to rest, no? He didn't bring you a bday gift when he promised to, and also it is not in line with typical customs/expectations where you are. That one is on him and you can put it down in the negatives column, but otherwise I think best to move on and evaluate his behaviours independent of that issue now. Glad to hear you are developing feelings for him and no longer see him just as a friend. Excited to see how this unfolds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I messaged Mike good morning from school since I had some free time and he called me. I asked how his boxing practice went, he said it was good, he hadn't practised in a while (because of his mum being sick), I asked what he's doing tonight (I was thinking we could meet) but he's going boxing again..so, I wished him happy boxing notalady, exactly because I'm developing feelings for him, I can't get past the gift issue. If we had just stayed friends, I would still be bothered by it (or the lack of it...lol), but I would be more willing to overlook it...but when I'm considering a relationship with someone, that's exactly the sort of thing I find very hard to deal with because, well, I can't find any excuse for it except stinginess..and I'm the exact opposite of that. I think that's why people who know me 'in real life' (as much as I hate that expression) are telling me I should give up on him..even people who met him at my party and found him very nice and all that. Over here, even the fact that a woman is buying a man dinner (because it's her birthday or just because) is a big deal..so, you can imagine what it's like when that guy does nothing at all in return. My male friend who was at the party is a colleague, too, and we talk about it daily. He knew all about Pedro, too (he's 50, we've been friends and colleagues for 15 yrs and very close and I'm friends with his wife, too) and he was rooting for Mike up until the gift incident...when a week went by and he had still gotten me nothing or even bought me a drink (which would have been so easy to do) to thank me for that dinner, at least, he said that's not how men behave and that he would be very embarrassed to accept a woman's invitatioon/treat and get her nothing in return. Even what I'm doing now (waiting for Valentine's Day), he thinks I shouldn't even wait that long..that I should have already stopped seeing him. So, yeah, apart from posters on here (who all come from different places and, obviously, have different customs), noone else thinks Mike would make a good b/f and I myself am in a dilemma, too...basically, the situation sucks and I can't think of a way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notalady Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think you should spend a bit more time to let him show you himself whether he's stingy. Who paid for the last few dates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 "well, I can't find any excuse for it except stinginess.." That's like saying "she took a call from a man she's dating during our date and had some lame excuse about how her phone works but I can't find any excuse other than rudeness and I can't be with someone who is rude". (Just hypothetically -I understand what happened!) Now, if he did not thank you for treating him to dinner or acknowledge as you said by buying you a drink as a thank you - then yes I could see that - he's had ample time to thank you (if he forgot at the dinner for some reason) and yes, I could see you concluding -without asking him -that a person who doesn't say thank you in that circumstance might not be a person you want to be serious with because there will be many situations where you need him to see the importance of being appreciative, good manners, etc. But the conclusions and assumptions you make about his character based on the gift- that I see other ways you could choose to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think you should spend a bit more time to let him show you himself whether he's stingy. Who paid for the last few dates? He paid for half of them and I paid for the other half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 the conclusions and assumptions you make about his character based on the gift- that I see other ways you could choose to look at it. What ways? I've thought of everything. His mum was sick, he was too busy..he's not anymore. He's not the type to give gifts...no, because he himself had said I didn't have to time to get you a gift today but I will. He forgot about it..no, he didn't as we talked about one of the gifts I got that night (the ring). I can't think of anything else. Except, if he plans to get me something on Valentine's and say something like 'this is for your birthday, too'. If you can think of something else, please, share! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 What ways? I've thought of everything. His mum was sick, he was too busy..he's not anymore. He's not the type to give gifts...no, because he himself had said I didn't have to time to get you a gift today but I will. He forgot about it..no, he didn't as we talked about one of the gifts I got that night (the ring). I can't think of anything else. Except, if he plans to get me something on Valentine's and say something like 'this is for your birthday, too'. If you can think of something else, please, share! So, here's the thing - did he thank you for dinner that night? Or if not has he acknowledged in some other appreciative way that you treated him for dinner. I'm trying not to make this about my personal standards but rather about working with your general standard "I can't stand stinginess in a romantic relationship" and seeing if your conclusions are the only ones to draw. What I would say is that if he thanked you for the dinner and acknowledged it in a comparable way, that would be different than if there has been silence. I'm glad you've given it some thought. He should absolutely show his appreciation for your treating him to dinner whether it's your birthday or not and especially because it's not like you were dating and taking turns treating (even then I don't think showing appreciation is limited in any way to early dating). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notalady Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 He paid for half of them and I paid for the other half. That's not too bad. Not overly generous but not stingy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 My main hesitation about drawing conclusions re Giftgate is that we are at risk of using one gaffe as a representation of an entire character. I would not want to hold myself to such an inflexible standard. And, it seems like you both are acting against custom, if you have been trading off paying for dates? Maybe not... I still feel like there was enough noise between you that it warrants making things simpler, and just going out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Okay, here is something that I'm wondering, bear with me. What does generosity mean to you? Why is it so important to you that a man is not stingy with his money PROVIDED that he is attentive, kind, etc. I am just wondering, because it seems that Mike is a very nice guy and very interested in you and giving of his time, but you may or may not write him off if you perceive him as stingy with his money. I am not criticizing, just wondering why it is important to you, why you have this value. I ask because, well, one of the main reasons why I don't care if a man is stingy is because it doesn't really matter to me given what I'm looking for in a relationship. I'm not wanting kids, I may or may not marry, and I am developing my own career and can provide for myself. As long as a guy is self sufficient and not relying on me from the get go and he can contribute to joint costs, I'm fine. I also don't routinely indulge in expensive things. I'm also not super traditional...just want someone to have fun with and commit to, travel partner, etc. I think if you're wanting a man to be a provider, or you like a certain lifestyle, or you're looking for a permanent or temporary stay-at-home setup (perhaps as you raise the kids for a bit prior to returning to work) or if you're simply just more traditional and enjoy gifts and such, well, stingyness is a major problem. So I am just wondering where your values come from, what are you looking for in a relationship. I wonder too, if men your age may be more likely to be looking for companionship, romance, and commitment but are less likely to want to monetarily invest in a woman and just focus on building a relationship that's good. Many have already had their kids, or have been divorced, been there done that, and they are probably more frugal now. Just thoughts. Sent from Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraday Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I would be more concerned thinking he wasn't thoughtful...rather than stingy. When the guy didn't do the "special Valentine's Day", I thought it was because he was someone who couldn't walk the talk....the last thought in my mind would have been that he's cheap. *shrugs* Maybe Pedro's cheapness is clouding things a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think people who are actually stingy with money often are stingy in emotional ways too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happpybear Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 ^^i tend to agree with this. It has been my experience too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I think people who are actually stingy with money often are stingy in emotional ways too. I happen to disagree but that's not important: look at Mike, MM is concerned that he's stingy because of the gift issue but he seems generous with his time, his attention towards her, good about contacting her, and showing interest, etc. What I am trying to ask is, what's more important? A guy who gets you trinkets on the socially appropriate days or a guy who is clearly putting in the effort, time, attention, and thoughtfulness in getting to know you and spend time with you? Of course, up to you, but I would find it sad to give up on a guy that you get along with simply because he's not into gifts as much as you are. Sent from Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I am thinking about the 5 love languages. Maybe this is about different ways of expressing affection, and also - from Mike's perspective - wanting to express affection appropriately in terms of amount and manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I happen to disagree but that's not important: look at Mike, MM is concerned that he's stingy because of the gift issue but he seems generous with his time, his attention towards her, good about contacting her, and showing interest, etc. What I am trying to ask is, what's more important? A guy who gets you trinkets on the socially appropriate days or a guy who is clearly putting in the effort, time, attention, and thoughtfulness in getting to know you and spend time with you? Of course, up to you, but I would find it sad to give up on a guy that you get along with simply because he's not into gifts as much as you are. Sent from Tapatalk I asked that in a previous post and MM seemed to say that he is not being overly generous with time/attention but he is behaving appropriately in that department (if I read that right). I don't think the gift is so important (other than he promised to get her one and has not yet - that's not about a gift but about reliability/trustworthiness). I do think that if, as I recently learned from MM he did not thank her for treating him to dinner or show appreciation in that regard then that speaks to a potential character/values issue. I didn't mean to write that I think Mike is stingy with money -I have no idea at this point. I do know that every guy I ever dated who was stingy on dates -either insisted on splitting the bill, or tipped badly -was also cold/distant or had some similar personality and character trait that was withholding when it came to how he treated people generally. Same with women who behaved that way in our friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 So, here's the thing - did he thank you for dinner that night? No. Apart from wishing me happy birthday when he arrived and telling me he would get me a gift, he said nothing else...which I didn't find strange at the time..I mean, neither did my friends, but, of course, they had all brought gifts to show their appreciation..and, at the time, I thought that he would, too, so, I didn't even think about it...I'm only thinking about it now that you're asking me. And, it seems like you both are acting against custom, if you have been trading off paying for dates? Well, the man usually pays for dates but, in our case, we started off as friends (or, at least, that was what I thought) so I never paid attention to who paid each time...and it still doesn't matter to me. I mean it is a bit unusual over here to always go 50/50 with a guy (unless you're in a relationship with him or married) but it's not as unthinkable as not getting a gift when you treat someone for your b/day. What does generosity mean to you? Why is it so important to you that a man is not stingy with his money PROVIDED that he is attentive, kind, etc. I am just wondering, because it seems that Mike is a very nice guy and very interested in you and giving of his time, but you may or may not write him off if you perceive him as stingy with his money. It's not about generosity. As I said, getting someone who's treating you for their b/day a b/day gift over here is NOT considered generous. It's considered the normal thing to do. You could say I'm looking for someone generous if, for example, he had gotten me flowers and I complained because I'd have liked him to get me something expensive..which isn't the case at all. Or if I complained about the fact he's never really treated me to anything since I pay once, he pays next time, etc..which, again, I'm not. Money/gifts, as such, never really mattered to me, even though I'm certainly not rich (which teacher is? lol). But manners do matter...and a/accepting a treat and not feeling the need to reciprocate in some way and b/saying you'll do something and not doing it are considered bad manners. It's a matter of principle and it shows (lack of) character. What my colleague said (that he'd be very embarrassed to not get me anything if he was Mike) goes for me, too. Even if I didn't have any money, I'd do something..bake a cake, I don't know...something to show appreciation....it's the gesture that counts. MM is concerned that he's stingy because of the gift issue but he seems generous with his time, his attention towards her, good about contacting her, and showing interest, etc. Yeah, well, he doesn't go out of his way to do any of those things. I mean, he does have lots of free time and of course he does all the rest but those aren't things I can judge him by...any guy who's ever been into me, acted the same way..it didn't mean we had similar values or we were compatible. I do the exact same things he does except driving to see him but he knows I don't drive. So, it's not like I can say 'he may be stingy with money BUT'...do you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Maybe this is irrelevant but reading in the dating forum about a guy who was going on a SECOND date with a girl and was already wondering if he should get her something for her b/day/V Day....made me feel even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophie274 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Maybe this is irrelevant but reading in the dating forum about a guy who was going on a SECOND date with a girl and was already wondering if he should get her something for her b/day/V Day....made me feel even worse. Hey maybe Mike posted on a forum, and everyone said he was way in the friendzone and giving you something on Valentine's Day would be both pushy and make him seem like a pushover! That's what I might say to him if he asked Whatever you do or decide, don't take him not getting you a present as a statement of how much he likes and values you. It's all about him and how he perceives the situation, and also his gift-giving/Valentine's Day habits. No one on here thinks it's his way of showing you're somehow not worthy. (In the 15 months BF and I have been together, he has given me two presents. Once for our anniversary and once for Christmas. (Nothing wild on those occasions). For my birthday, he bought me a cake but no present. I don't think he's ever taken me out for a fancy dinner or cocktail either as a sort of special occasion. My expectations for Valentine's Day are LOOOW. I'm not going to lie and say it wouldn't be awesome to get showered with gifts at some point, ha ha. But I've gotten lots of love notes, I get coffee in bed most mornings. I get little desserts or other treats brought to me. I see, for instance, how much he has stepped up what he does around the house because he knows it matters to me a lot - no small thing in the country where we live. And he's extremely generous with affection/attention/time, and plans fun things for us to do together. So I don't consider him stingy and I don't feel upset or ripped off. I also know that him not giving me presents/spending lots of money on me has to do with how he grew up, and the fact that his family was dirt poor. Even now he worries about money a lot even though he has no real reason to. I'm sure there are some women who wouldn't be ok with this kind of guy (and I'm sure there are guys who do everything my BF does AND the presents, and good for their wives and girlfriends So that's why I would let the present thing go and get to know Mike better. But if it's a dealbreaker, so be it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Whatever you do or decide, don't take him not getting you a present as a statement of how much he likes and values you. It's all about him and how he perceives the situation, and also his gift-giving/Valentine's Day habits. No one on here thinks it's his way of showing you're somehow not worthy. 'On here' being the key word..lol. Anyway, it certainly doesn't scream like and value, either. does it? I have no idea how he could be perceiving the situation but my instinct says that he's thinking 'good, i got away with the gift thing'..lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudgie Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sophie summed it up nicely I think. Sent from Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree that if I bring a gift to a restaurant dinner party I would thank the host but if I forgot it wouldn't be a big deal since I brought a gift (but I would never forget if it was at her home). I am struck by his behavior in not thanking you or mentioning later "I had a great time at your birthday, thanks so much again for including me" or whatever. I don't know -isn't that just instinct/reflex (where the gift-giving is not as much so). I wouldn't compare the posts from a guy on a second date buying a v-day gift. V-day is crazy that way - so many different mindsets/customs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 'On here' being the key word..lol. Anyway, it certainly doesn't scream like and value, either. does it? I have no idea how he could be perceiving the situation but my instinct says that he's thinking 'good, i got away with the gift thing'..lol Some people do not use gifts to show affection. Remember the 5 languages? My dad is the worst; occasionally gave my mom gifts, but mostly, she said she liked them because they made him happy, and his happiness to give them made her happy to receive them. The gifts themselves were wildly off, sometimes, like pearl earrings for a woman who never had her ears pierced. And they were married 54 years until Mom passed. Your friends may be reflecting back to you what you want to hear? I don't know; there is something inside you asking you to stick it out. Sometimes, I kept a man around and discovered in retrospect that I was exploring some other value, character trait, or life path in being with him. Like, What if I became a suburban housewife? Huh, let me date this guy and see what that feels like... (lololol) I tell you honestly, this thread made me wonder what my bf gave me for xmas. I had forgotten. Completely. My VDay expectations are about like Sophie's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmarple Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Some people do not use gifts to show affection. In that case, I can only say that I don't know what Mike uses to show affection/appreciation and I should have some idea considering we've been out together almost 10 times. Your friends may be reflecting back to you what you want to hear? No. I hadn't even brought up the gift thing with them until I was asked by 3 different people what he'd gotten me..on the same day...that's when I realised he had gotten me nothing. My VDay expectations are about like Sophie's. Same goes for me. I never expect anything on Valentine's even though most of my bf's always got me something. I'm only 'expecting' something from Mike in the hope that he will use that day as an 'excuse' to do what he had said he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 In that case, I can only say that I don't know what Mike uses to show affection/appreciation and I should have some idea considering we've been out together almost 10 times. Yes - he was touching your hair, for example. I suspect Mike uses physical touch as a way to express affection. And maybe acts of service, given that his grandmother was a distraction of his emotion and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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