Do women have higher expectations for attractive guys?

[Blue Spiral]

Yes, so much this. Everything you said = 1000% true. Thank you!

 

While I stand by what I said that men and women have it equally difficult in finding a LTR, women definitely have more power in dating, especially when it comes to casual sex and not having to pay for the first few dates.

 

You're more than welcome.

 

I'll actually stand up for women, here: I think that men have a slightly easier time finding a LTR. From what I've seen, there are a lot more commitment-minded women than commitment-minded men. If a man wakes up one day and says, "I want a relationship", he has a much larger pool to draw from (as opposed to a woman in the same situation). If I really wanted a relationship, I have no doubt that I could get one in short order--it just wouldn't be with a woman I was attracted to.

 

You're right, though--the finding and maintaining of LTRs is a struggle for both genders. It's almost like monogamy is a social construct that we're constantly tinkering with, rather than something inherent and unchangeable...

[Blue Spiral]

Ah but you're assuming that these "beta orbiters" are people the woman would want to be with Blue Spiral- most of the time, they aren't for one reason or another.

 

No, I'm not. I've done my time as a beta orbiter, and I know that women used me for attention/other things, while they pined for men that they were actually attracted to. (But they were more than happy to drop hints and give me hope, to ensure that I stuck around. At least until they didn't need me anymore.)

 

You bring up an interesting point re: when someone gets rejected, sooner versus later. I honestly hadn't considered that.

[John John]

You're more than welcome.

 

I'll actually stand up for women, here: I think that men have a slightly easier time finding a LTR. From what I've seen, there are a lot more commitment-minded women than commitment-minded men. If a man wakes up one day and says, "I want a relationship", he has a much larger pool to draw from (as opposed to a woman in the same situation). If I really wanted a relationship, I have no doubt that I could get one in short order--it just wouldn't be with a woman I was attracted to.

 

You're right, though--the finding and maintaining of LTRs is a struggle for both genders. It's almost like monogamy is a social construct that we're constantly tinkering with, rather than something inherent and unchangeable...

 

I suppose I agree...but there are also plenty of guys who know what they want and want to commit as well. I think it's equally hard if we're talking LTR, perhaps slightly easier for men in general.

[Blue Spiral]

Yes, indeed, men fight over ugly, overweight women every day. Ummmmm...can you tell me in which parallel universe does that happen? Because I've certainly never seen it happen myself!

 

I saw it with my own eyes, and I was as shocked/disbelieving as you. The point is that men compete over all women, even perceived "low-value" ones.

 

You might like it, but not every guy enjoys doing it.

 

I see no fun in the anxiety and possible embarresment/humilation that comes with rejection.

 

I'm the same way. I tried asking out a girl, once, and years later, I tried hitting on another girl...that was all it took for me to discover that I didn't enjoy those things, and didn't want to do them again. Maybe I'm just a quick learner, in terms of figuring out what I don't enjoy. I'm just too timid and sensitive for that kind of stress/rejection.

[Lorem Ipsum]

Ah but you're assuming that these "beta orbiters" are people the woman would want to be with Blue Spiral- most of the time, they aren't for one reason or another.

Exactly. Could I get laid tonight? Yes, if I wasn't choosy. But yech. Could I walk up to the best looking man in a bar, tell him I want to have sex with him and it would happen? Absolutely not. I can hear the laughter ringing in my head, if not the outright insults. Everyone gets rejected in some way, for some reason.

 

I've always said that women can get sex any time they want and men can start a relationship any time they want -- it all depends on how picky you are. Because whether we like it or not, women still decide on matters of sex and men still decide on matters of commitment. There will always be some guy who will have sex with anyone and there will always be some woman who will put up with anything to have a relationship.

 

I don't think anyone has an easy time of it. Finding that right person/relationship is difficult for everyone in their own way. We all have different challenges to overcome.

 

OP, you're still stuck in that "I'm a fat dude" place in your head. Many people have the same problem of being the ugly ducking when they were younger and not quite getting it that now they're a swan. The only thing you can do is keep on trying. As a male friend of mine put it, every "no" gets you one step closer to a "yes". Keep working on yourself, be comfortable in your own skin and you will get there. Maybe not tomorrow or next week, but you will make it.

[John John]

I saw it with my own eyes, and I was as shocked/disbelieving as you. The point is that men compete over all women, even perceived "low-value" ones.

 

I'm the same way. I tried asking out a girl, once, and years later, I tried hitting on another girl...that was all it took for me to discover that I didn't enjoy those things, and didn't want to do them again. Maybe I'm just a quick learner, in terms of figuring out what I don't enjoy. I'm just too timid and sensitive for that kind of stress/rejection.

 

 

I hate hitting on girls in real life too, but you gotta do it! I'm a bit on the shy side myself, and (like most men) I hate rejection. But we all go through it. I generally will only ever hit on a woman in real life if there are any indicators she would be open to it. Rarely do I "cold approach" at a bar or whatever unless I catch her looking at me a few times.

[John John]

I've always said that women can get sex any time they want and men can start a relationship any time they want -- it all depends on how picky you are. Because whether we like it or not, women still decide on matters of sex and men still decide on matters of commitment. There will always be some guy who will have sex with anyone and there will always be some woman who will put up with anything to have a relationship.

 

Ok Lorem, we can be friends again, because I agree with you here

 

How sucky is that what each gender can get easily (women = sex, men = relationship) is (based on this thread) not usually what they want. LOL.

[Blue Spiral]

I hate hitting on girls in real life too, but you gotta do it!

 

...why?

 

If the answer is "because that's the only way you'll get girls", well, I'm more than willing to not get girls. I may be sex-obsessed, but there are things in my life that I enjoy a lot more. At my elderly age of 34, I look at women and think, "Yeah, I'm not putting myself through that, again."

[jonny15]

I'm the same way. I tried asking out a girl, once, and years later, I tried hitting on another girl...that was all it took for me to discover that I didn't enjoy those things, and didn't want to do them again. Maybe I'm just a quick learner, in terms of figuring out what I don't enjoy. I'm just too timid and sensitive for that kind of stress/rejection.

 

Yea....I don't take it very well.

 

It's a very stressfull thing and I don't take strees very well.

 

All the nervousness that goes with it. I just can't stand it.

[tornst]

You might like it, but not every guy enjoys doing it.

 

I see no fun in the anxiety and possible embarresment/humilation that comes with rejection.

 

Yeah rejection isn't fun, but after enough time you become numb to it. I've had some terrible "dates" and have been treated and judged horribly by some girls. It sucks right after it happens but in retrospect I can laugh at it and I know it doesn't compromise my character.

 

itsallgrand - thanks for the optimism. I haven't lost hope mutual interest will come, however my point in writing all of this is 4 years of feeling good about myself and suited for dating is a long time to come out empty handed. Don't you think something should have happened by now?

 

And with pursuing a girl too much and not seeing signs, I've made a commitment to be persistent with women I like. There have been girls who were flaky and seemed uninterested, so I stopped pursuing. Years later I find out through the grapevine that those girls liked me all that time and didn't know how to read me or respond to me. Of course, it's too late now. All those girls are with other guys, some of them even engaged.

 

So I've learned that I can't think about the signs and should just worry about what I'm into. Of course, if a girl is very direct and tells me something like "go away, I hate you," then I'll get the picture.

[jonny15]

Yeah rejection isn't fun, but after enough time you become numb to it.

 

I don't think I could ever get use to rejection. Being embarressed is not something I could ever be numb to.

 

I've had some terrible "dates" and have been treated and judged horribly by some girls. It sucks right after it happens but in retrospect I can laugh at it and I know it doesn't compromise my character.

 

You may be able to laugh off bad experiences. But not everyone can.

 

If I were treated and judged horribly on a date, not that i've ever been on one. But if I had that happen, there is no way I could laugh off something like that. That would hurt badly.

[tornst]

OP, you're still stuck in that "I'm a fat dude" place in your head. Many people have the same problem of being the ugly ducking when they were younger and not quite getting it that now they're a swan. The only thing you can do is keep on trying. As a male friend of mine put it, every "no" gets you one step closer to a "yes". Keep working on yourself, be comfortable in your own skin and you will get there. Maybe not tomorrow or next week, but you will make it.

 

You're right about the I'm a fat dude mentality, though I'm not totally in that mindset in the sense that I now like who I am and don't feel self-conscious about my body. Maybe a better way of saying it is I've never adopted the hot guy mentality. I still haven't fully accepted what I'm capable of with women.

 

I've gradually changed my mindset but without a significant success yet, I've been working blind all these years, using only trial and error. If I got a break and went into a relationship with a girl where I made all the right moves from the beginning, it would give me some grounding on what to do in the future, a playbook on what leads to success. I would be able to forgive my missteps and not have to watch my behavior so closely since I know what works. Many guys I know learned this in their mid to late teens. I have yet to learn. Just hope I can do it soon.

[Thorshammer]

Based in what I've heard, when most women see a guy they find very attractive, they assume a lot about him, mainly that he either has a girlfriend or he has a lot of options.

 

Or that hes a player. I get that a lot.

 

So say she finds out neither of these are true. What if there's an attractive guy who is shyer than she thought or inexperienced? Is this suddenly a turn-off, as if now she assumes there must be something else up with him for him not to be very smooth and experienced with women? Is an attractive guy expected to have a much higher level of confidence and if he doesn't have that much he's dismissed as insecure, even if he still has some confidence in him?

 

Yes, it happened to me when i was younger. Women would ask me if something was wrong with me, lol. One woman stopped talking to me after i told her i was shy, this was 14 years ago.

 

But, attractive people get away with being a bit shy. It all depends on the woman. But insecurity will kill of any attraction, no matter how sexy you think you are.

[IAmFCA]

"Rejection" hurts until we remember that its just about what that one person chooses. Its about their issues, their sense of what is right fo rthem at this moment, their strengths and insecurities. It has nothing to do with us, or not much anyway. This understanding helps reduce the sting.

[happpybear]

i agree with the above, OP there is a difference between being on the shy side and being deeply insecure. You sound deeply insecure because as was said above, you still see yourself as inferior and not good enough, as if you don't like yourself. Once you turn that around, things wll start to be better for you in any aspects of your life. I love shy guys, but the ones that are also deeply insecure with who they are as people are a nightmare to date (this goes for both genders).

 

 

 

I agree with this too. Do you automatically assume rejection is due to your looks?

[Capricorn3]

In most cases personality can trump looks.

^ THIS. So many people seem to think that just because they are good looking, stunning, gorgeous, beautiful etc etc, that somehow the opposite sex will be falling at their feet. It doesn't work that way. Personality IS the key. It is the drawing card, no matter how good looking they are. If all they have to offer is their looks, but have no personality to go with those looks, then not many people will be falling at their feet (imo).

 

I've worked with two stunning looking people in the past. The woman thought she owned the world, she was so full of herself, constantly preening herself in front of anyone who looked at her and it was seriously off-putting. NO-ONE liked her. The guy - stunningly handsome, but so boring and dull, like a dead fish, lol. No-one was drawn to him either.

 

Looks = nothing. Personality = everything.

[Ms Darcy]

OP we know very little about you. We don't know if you smell or are very serious or have a strange sounding voice. There could be any number of reasons women lose interest. I have lost interest because one guy had terrible table manners.

 

I say that to say that often people will come here looking for a magic cure to their dating woes. It never hurts to be more confident and happy and healthy and self loving. That indeed can help you attract the right person.

 

But in the end ... there is NO MAGIC BULLET. If you are approaching women on looks and impressions then it is even more of a crapshoot.

 

Compatibility is Hard To Find ... and if you have not found it yet.that does not mean the girls are flaky. (But if you really do see a pattern of flakiness then you need to do some soul searching about who you approach.)

 

Love is a gift and not a guarantee. Do not feel entitled and stay humble in your search.

[tornst]

i agree with the above, OP there is a difference between being on the shy side and being deeply insecure. You sound deeply insecure because as was said above, you still see yourself as inferior and not good enough, as if you don't like yourself. Once you turn that around, things wll start to be better for you in any aspects of your life. I love shy guys, but the ones that are also deeply insecure with who they are as people are a nightmare to date (this goes for both genders).

 

Insecurity is all in how you handle it, though. We'd all be lying if we said we had absolutely no insecurities. I have my doubts about things, but in the end I usually get the guts and push those doubts aside.

 

The same is with women. I'll see a woman I like. The fat dude in me says, "ohhhh nooooo she's gonna be like all the others." But then my new mindset that I've developed over the past few years says, "Psssh, nah man, you'd be doing her a favor by talking with her. Time to go say hi." And the new mindset tends to win. The fat dude is in the background, but I do my best to overcome it. Do I need to completely stamp it out? I've put in years worth of work to improve myself and develop myself as having a good interesting personality that's too cool to let any doubts rule me. I'm not sure what more I can do.

 

I agree with this too. Do you automatically assume rejection is due to your looks?

 

Could be looks. Could be humor. Could be my interests. Could be she's ready to burst and doesn't need another man in her life. It could be anything. A sole rejection doesn't phase me anymore. A rejection makes me feel good in a way, actually, because it assures me that I took action. Doing nothing is what would get me down.

[HeatherB]

There are different types of insecurity. If this cute guy were just shy and awkward but really sweet, many women would scream "Jackpot!" But if he had the yucky type of insecurity that made him look outside himself for strength, being needy or controlling, that'd generally be a turn off. But...broken people attract broken people. Never underestimate the allure of perfectly compatible weaknesses.

[Cognitive_Canine]

To be honest, I'm probably would give an attractive guy more leeway in a relationship than an unattractive guy (They could have more personality flaws since their looks make up for it).

 

Same as how I'd give a guy with an awesome personality more leeway in a relationship than someone with a lesser compatible personality (They could not be as good looking since their personality makes up for it).

[tornst]

There are different types of insecurity. If this cute guy were just shy and awkward but really sweet, many women would scream "Jackpot!" But if he had the yucky type of insecurity that made him look outside himself for strength, being needy or controlling, that'd generally be a turn off. But...broken people attract broken people. Never underestimate the allure of perfectly compatible weaknesses.

 

I agree. Insecurity in itself isn't damning. It's a natural thing we acquire and through experiences that hurt us. It's whether we can be honest with ourselves and get through them independently or need to use someone as a crutch to handle them, which leads to being needy or controlling. I have things that have hurt me, and like you said, a girl who went through similar experiences would probably be more compatible with me since we can relate to each other. It doesn't make us inferior, just different, and more compatible...kinda the idea behind Silver Linings Playbook. Just because two people deal with mental illness doesn't make them unfit to connect with others and develop relationships.

 

OP we know very little about you. We don't know if you smell or are very serious or have a strange sounding voice. There could be any number of reasons women lose interest. I have lost interest because one guy had terrible table manners.

 

I say that to say that often people will come here looking for a magic cure to their dating woes. It never hurts to be more confident and happy and healthy and self loving. That indeed can help you attract the right person.

 

But in the end ... there is NO MAGIC BULLET. If you are approaching women on looks and impressions then it is even more of a crapshoot.

 

Compatibility is Hard To Find ... and if you have not found it yet.that does not mean the girls are flaky. (But if you really do see a pattern of flakiness then you need to do some soul searching about who you approach.)

 

Love is a gift and not a guarantee. Do not feel entitled and stay humble in your search.

 

I think you hit oil there...it's gotta be the way I smell, lol. But yeah, I understand. Love is a big thing. I don't feel entitled to find it right away either. Right now, I'm just looking for someone to spend some extra time with. To do some of the things with that I've gotten used to doing alone. Someone to give some enjoyment to. That's a more down to earth goal.

[HeatherB]

I agree. Insecurity in itself isn't damning. It's a natural thing we acquire and through experiences that hurt us. It's whether we can be honest with ourselves and get through them independently or need to use someone as a crutch to handle them, which leads to being needy or controlling. I have things that have hurt me, and like you said, a girl who went through similar experiences would probably be more compatible with me since we can relate to each other. It doesn't make us inferior, just different, and more compatible...kinda the idea behind Silver Linings Playbook. Just because two people deal with mental illness doesn't make them unfit to connect with others and develop relationships.

Yep. I didn't mean to imply you are broken, in case it sounded like that. I tend to think people who are heavily into abuse and dishonesty may qualify as temporarily broken, but not the rest of us. Like you say, the rest of us just try to wind up with people who have problems we are well equipped to deal with.

[Rosti87]

Could it possibly be the type of women you are attracted to? Women whose personalities are not interested in your type of personality? You obviously and reel them in, but seem to have difficulty keeping them. I know women who are quite attractive, stunning even who can attract them but can't keep them. Or the attract really high end guys, but the relationships are awful.

 

I agree with several people on here that looks are just part of the package. Character and personality is usually what keeps people from running for the exits.

[John John]

Looks = nothing. Personality = everything.

 

I agree with the general message of what you said, but I wouldn't go this far. I think looks can help get you in the door as far as the first couple of dates. Looks aren't nothing because there has to be some physical attraction. But yes...personality and compatibility are the prime factors that contribute to the success (or lack thereof) of a relationship over the long term. And as we all know, looks fade.

 

And OP, regardless of what you look like, like Darcy said...loving yourself and being confident will definitely help you attract the right person.

[Nightvision]

It's pretty funny reading this, I can relate to your experience in dating. I've been trying to shrug the bad parts off and carry on