Is this really viewed as playing games?

[tiredofvampires]

I guess it just depends on the guy.

 

I think it depends on the woman, too. If a guy relentlessly pursued me when I was not at all interested in him or reciprocating, after one year I'd be positively allergic to his presence, breaking out in hives, haha.

 

The way you're presenting it, OP, it's a choice between extremes: either the woman sit back and wait passively for everything to happen and for the man to make all the moves, OR she suffocates him by doing everything, with daily texts, attempts to call, wondering, "Why isn't he answering, I just texted 3 times today, not 20!" It sounds like you're advising women who are acting desperate not to act desperate -- which would be good advice. But I don't call being able to simply reciprocate a man's attention "desperate", if I'm not inundating him with attention and/or pleas for attention. So that part of your advice I don't agree with. Isn't there a middle ground?

 

I'm all for courtship and all, but if a man can't tell the difference between "chasing" him/aggression and reciprocating his gestures with enthusiasm, this is a guy I want to weed out. You're not weeding out guys who are into you with your method -- you're weeding IN guys who are mostly about themselves, and are not interested in an equal relationship, and greatly lacking in maturity. Any guy that has a double standard where he wants to call all the shots and if I call any of them, I'm a turn-off to him, can go take a long walk off a short pier and play his games with the other fish. And yes, at that point it IS games. There's a point where "coy" becomes "stifled," for me as a woman, and that would be it. If you don't like that I like you enough to make a move of my own in about a 50-50 ratio, I guess we don't value the same things in the courtship phase. I value the chance to respond and be more than a rag doll to keep your attention, and frankly, it's pretty boring for everything to be so predictable anyway.

 

Even men who I'm attracted to who make all the moves start to annoy me, and even though I'm a woman, I'm annoyed for the same reasons as they would be. I want the chance to see in him a willing recipient, not just a go-getter. There has to be a balance.

[poetryandlyrics]

tiredofvampires got it right. And has my stance on this.

 

If a guy's been on my case for a year and I was clearly not interested, I'd be annoyed that I'd be blunt and just tell him off that I am not interested, will never be, and his constant infatuation of me is annoying me. And I have no problem with being blunt. Likewise, I'm not up to "chasing" a guy if he shows no interest, it'd just quash it for me. I get bored easily. I'd prefer an equal trade in the courtship, which means yes, letting me to take the reins if I want to. And I have no problem stating when I feel the need to. Dating my boyfriend , I told him straight out that I want to take it slow so he agreed, though he knew he wanted me already. I told him we're not going to be boyfriend and girlfriend till I feel I'm ready, and he agreed. I was the one to make it official, the one that gave him the heads up that i am interested. And hey, must works out with our dynamics if we're going strong three years now.

[annie24]

yeah, i can't imagine being pestered by a guy for a year if i really wasn't interested. oh well, i guess it worked out for them!

[lostnscared]

TOV,

 

I think you misunderstand me. While I admit that both scenarios that I painted are extremes(one where the man does all the chasing, the other where the woman does all the chasing), the method that I subscribe to is not about the woman being passive and waiting around. When the man contacts her, she should be receptive and warm, and flirt and let him know she is interested and encourage him, HOWEVER she still should let him "court" her--which means he should be the one setting up dates, calling her, or sending her nice texts when he has a chance. Every once in a while, she can as well, but she should always be steps behind him--not at his pace or ahead of him. This gives him space and allows him to be the pursuer, and also protects her from getting hurt and investing too much into someone not very interested in her. I don't advise her to do nothing and just "wait", on the contrary, I advise her to date several other men, partake in hobbies, have a life and have fun, be carefree. What I don't advise is for to call him, text him, and ask him out on dates--which therefore is taking the man's role as the pursuer(to me at least) and can possibly place her in a position of getting hurt feelings or coming on too strong too soon. But of course she should express interest when he calls her, flirt with him when they see each other, and show him affection and encouragement.

 

The problem, I guess, I've seen when woman take the lead, is that sometimes it turns into clingy insecure behavior, where the woman is going above and beyond to show him she likes him(texting him everyday, calling him more than once a week, asking him to hang out more than once a week, etc). Maybe it's my age group (23-27), but I have to meet a girl my age who takes the lead and doesn't get too clingy with it and therefore scare the guy off. Every now and then the man will be okay with it, and still it will progress into a relationship(which I've seen with my friends) but I see far too many threads on this forum and other forums where what started off as a great courtship soon escalated into a "fade and burn" because the woman took the lead and then did too much or the man did too little and caused the woman to feel insecure and question how much he liked her.

 

Now as I said, this advice is not a size fits all. Like I said people have to go with what is natural with them and what feels better for them. A friend of mine said she cannot wait around for a guy to contact her and do everything, she doesn't have the patience for it. If she likes a guy she will text him, call him, and let him know she is interested. It hasn't really failed her as of yet, not too much anyway--she's had some fade and burns, but has also had relationships.

 

The only reason I do the approach that I talked about, is because I have the patience to do so, and I like to be pursued. Now every once in a while, if I truly feel like it, I will reach out to a man that I'm interested in and send a flirty texts here and there, but I try not to make a habit of doing it too much because in my experience the more you do(calling, texting, arranging dates) the more invested you become into a person and it can lead to hurt feelings if you invest too much into someone that isn't really that into you.

[Blue Spiral]

Then why when women chase after men do they end up getting burned far more often then when they don't.

 

I hope you're not trying to use that to prove something. The same could be said of men chasing women--most of the time, it doesn't work out. By that logic, men shouldn't pursue women, either. People pursuing other people with a relationship in mind usually results in the pursuer getting burned. Why? Because if someone has to "chase," it either means that the attraction is one-sided, or that the person being chased is willing to let the "chaser" do all the work. There are men that like to chase; I'm not one of them, and there are more of us than you'd think.

 

Obviously, women have a fallback plan in this area. They can avoid pursuit, sit back, and wait for traditional gender roles to kick in, in which men initiate contact. Men don't have that luxury. Take it from a guy that doesn't want to put himself out there (you didn't enjoy the risk, and neither do I); it's very easy to be alone for long periods of time.

[lostnscared]

I'm only saying this because I see frequent threads here and on the other forum I go on, where women who "chased" after the men end up getting burned. I go on websites, and blogs written by MEN who tell women NOT to call men, arrange dates, or text him, let him do everything(and these are men saying this). To me this is not all a coincidence. If it seems like women(on average) have more luck when they sit back and let the man take the lead and if MEN themselves have admitted to women that they should let the men take lead then why not just let him take the lead?

 

And I understand that it doesn't mean that a relationship will work out, that a man will ask a woman to be his girlfriend, or that a woman won't get hurt BUT what it does do is help a woman gauge whether a man is truly interested and how much. There is a difference between words and actions, ESPECIALLY with men. A man can say he likes you, say he wants to see you, say that you mean so much to him, but the real WAY to know is to see how he is showing it(as in, is he calling you frequently, texting you throughout the week, arranging a date once a week, etc). On the other hand the same can go for a woman I suppose... And I guess that is where things become complicated.

[Blue Spiral]

I'm only saying this because I see frequent threads here and on the other forum I go on, where women who "chased" after the men end up getting burned. I go on websites, and blogs written by MEN who tell women NOT to call men, arrange dates, or text him, let him do everything(and these are men saying this).

 

And I'm sure I could find just as many websites and blogs written by women which give the opposite advice.

 

The less risk one takes in all this, the better it will go for them, I'm sure.

[Romanticism]

Your dude is taking the piss.

 

Yes you are in trouble.

 

I believe in the way of courtship. A woman should not ask a man out. Period.

 

This thread asks a question that didnt need to be asked. Refer thread 'do men still chase in 2013'. It's all there.

 

Is this 1820 again?

[Cherry009]

I think i agree with you, in the past i have had guys that i am not interested in chase me and continue to do this for quite a long time, but then EVERYTIME i have shown a guy interest, made it clear i like them and made effort with them they just lose interest. EVERYTIME.

[Cherry1010]

So you don't act like a man with women, therefore you tell all the women that it's okay to 'chase' men in order to preserve your own ego?

 

Men are supposed to court women. It's in your genetics.

[lostnscared]

I think i agree with you, in the past i have had guys that i am not interested in chase me and continue to do this for quite a long time, but then EVERYTIME i have shown a guy interest, made it clear i like them and made effort with them they just lose interest. EVERYTIME.

 

And if that has been your experience, then yep definitely sitting back and letting the man take the lead will probably work best for you--maybe you tend to attract and are attracted to men who prefer traditional dating.

 

But I do want to say again that not EVERY woman has this issue. I have a friend that doesn't follow any "rules" and texts, calls and asks men that she likes to hang out. She's had multiple relationships doing this, some short term others long term. I have another friend that does the same thing, again she has not had a problem getting a relationship. I have a friend that called the guy she liked everyday and talked to him for hours, slept with him on the third date and told him she loved him their second month--they are married. my point? That I'm not saying that ALL men like traditional dating or that it works for EVERY woman... It just works for me, for you, and maybe some other women.

[Batya33]

"I'm all for courtship and all, but if a man can't tell the difference between "chasing" him/aggression and reciprocating his gestures with enthusiasm, this is a guy I want to weed out. You're not weeding out guys who are into you with your method -- you're weeding IN guys who are mostly about themselves, and are not interested in an equal relationship, and greatly lacking in maturity. Any guy that has a double standard where he wants to call all the shots and if I call any of them, I'm a turn-off to him, can go take a long walk off a short pier and play his games with the other fish. And yes, at that point it IS games. There's a point where "coy" becomes "stifled," for me as a woman, and that would be it. If you don't like that I like you enough to make a move of my own in about a 50-50 ratio, I guess we don't value the same things in the courtship phase. I value the chance to respond and be more than a rag doll to keep your attention, and frankly, it's pretty boring for everything to be so predictable anyway."

 

 

I agree with this balanced approach. I also think the space/time approach (meaning not as a "strategy" - as a way of interacting in a healthy relationship) shouldn't end with the honeymoon period - sure, if you end up marrying or living together you may be together physically every day but for me a healthy relationship requires respecting each other's needs for space even if you're in the same room - in keeping things fresh and interesting by continuing the dance of intimacy - if you give each other that space you're far more likely, when you are together again, to have new and interesting experiences to share. What's best is if this occurs naturally -if both people know each other well enough to sense when some space/time is needed. In the beginning of dating it's often not possible to read the signs so if the default is to decide not to contact a second time, etc or to wait some time before sending the cute e-mail that's not a bad approach. But it's all a balance.

What I would say also is if the person is completely smitten in the beginning then the judgment about how often to contact is probably off and it's best to go against what you feel like doing from a smittendom perspective and wait a bit so as not to overwhelm the other person.

[lostnscared]

I think the balanced approach is fine as well... Again, as I said in another post, the problem that I've seen with the balanced approach, at least amongst women in my age range(mid twenties) is that what often starts out as balanced and mutual interaction and attraction almost always transforms into one person wanting to do a bit more--as in that person may want to talk more, may get upset if they notice the other person isn't talking as much as they used to, or may get frustrated when the pace doesn't pick up as much as they'd like and then they set out to do things at their own pace. Now this isn't just women who do this, there are men who do this as well. If both people are comfortable going at the same pace, and have a mutual understanding of space, then I can definitely see how the balanced approach works much better than one person(man or woman) doing the chase. However it takes a good amount of compatibility, understanding, maturity, and wanting the "same" thing out of whatever it is you have to make that type of approach work. Far too often, in dating, people don't want the same things, think they do but don't, and/or comfortable with a different pace altogether. There are some people who freak out if they can't talk everyday, and there are others who prefer to only talk 1-2x a week. When you are first getting to know each other, you don't know what that other person's preference is and that is why things often get muddied. You start projecting your own expectations(well I prefer to talk everyday so I will text him everyday) onto the other person.

 

I agree with you, though, that when smitten especially to try to counter against the "need" to reach out to that person all the time and try to contact them as "least" as possible until that person signals otherwise. And this is for men and women. For instance if you like to talk everyday, counter against that "need" and try to only reach out to that person(or wait for the other person to contact you) for at least 3 days.

 

In the beginning stages I prefer to talk 2x a week. But everyone is different.

[Cherry009]

The trouble is i dont want to just wait for the guy to do all the work, all the chasing and all the arranging, i want it to be 50/50 effort, or at least 40/60 with him being the 60. i just want it to be a mutual effort but that just doesnt ever seem to work long term for me.

[lostnscared]

The trouble is i dont want to just wait for the guy to do all the work, all the chasing and all the arranging, i want it to be 50/50 effort, or at least 40/60 with him being the 60. i just want it to be a mutual effort but that just doesnt ever seem to work long term for me.

 

Well what kind of men are you attracting?

 

In my experience if a man really likes a woman, he won't mind her taking the lead every now and then and it won't necessarily turn him off if she decided to ask him on a date, text him, or call him. If she gets overly clingy YES he'll get turned off, but if she's simply reaching out in a reasonable time frame, then if he likes her he'll go with it. Maybe the problem is that you haven't met a man that genuinely and truly likes you(or is interested in getting to know you) and that you are attracting emotionally unavailable man, narcissists(men who are absorbed with themselves) or men that just want "sex" or that are only half-interested in you and chances are eventually and overtime even if you had let them take the lead they would have eventually faded.

 

That is why it DOES depend on the man in question(as well as the woman). If you are attracting emotionally unavailable men, or men that aren't really that interested then that could be the reason that they respond to you NOT giving them attention as opposed to when you do give them attention. On the other hand if you display clingy behaviors early on(texting too much, calling often, wanting to hang out often), men will run for the hills.

 

I don't know enough about your situation to give you solid advice though.

[Batya33]

So just to clarify because you're using the word chase in most of your posts. What is "chasing" in your opinion? And why in your opinion should chasing be part of courtship (whether modern, traditional, whatever) in the first place?

[lostnscared]

So just to clarify because you're using the word chase in most of your posts. What is "chasing" in your opinion? And why in your opinion should chasing be part of courtship (whether modern, traditional, whatever) in the first place?

 

Chasing is going after the other person relentlessly. For instance, maybe that person will send the person they like 2-3 texts per day(even though they've only went on 1-2 dates so far) or she/he will call that person everyday(or close to everyday), and/or asking that person to hang out more than 1-2x a week(in the beginning stages of the dating process). Freaking out if it's been more than 1-2 days since they last heard from the person. Or sending a text and when the person does not respond, you send ANOTHER text or even "call" to make sure they got the first text.

 

Men have done this with me, and I considered it "chasing" me. Sometimes it got annoying, sometimes it was flattering. On the other hand I know if I displayed similar behavior, that a man would run for the hills lol.

 

Now some people(on other sites) consider chasing to be ANY move that a woman makes first. For instance I am a member on a website created by a traditional woman who believes that a woman should NEVER call a man, text a man, ask him to hang out, or be too available. She considers that chasing and/or taking on the male role as the pursuer. I've also been on other sites written by men who say essentially the same thing. But to me, chasing is as I stated above.

 

I don't necessarily think chasing should be a part of a courtship but I've observed that it tends to happen more than "mutual or balanced" dating. For instance what may start off as mutual attraction(both people acknowledging they like each other) easily shifts to one person liking the other person slightly more or projecting what they WANT on the other person, and then they began to call more than they were before, or they may send out more texts then the other person, or get frustrated with the pace(which is going at a reasonable pace) and try to speed things up. Or they may just be anxious to "snatch" that person up so they act out in behaviors of that of a smitten person.

 

Now I realize that this doesn't always happen in courtship and that there are plenty of couples that are able to go at the same pace, without projecting their expectations on the other, they are secure individuals and are fine with giving the other person space and getting to know each other in reasonable timeframe. And I think this probably happens as people mature and get older. But I notice that far often, amongst people under 30 this does not happen.. And then you see threads on here and on other forums of one person frustrated, or questioning whether the other person likes them because they aren't on the same pace or want to do "more" then what is occurring.

 

Now I don't want to generalize, but I do observe that it is often WHEN WOMEN engage in these clingy behaviors early in the dating process that the men fade away. Whereas when men display these SAME behaviors the woman isn't always as quick to run for the hills and may stick around unless she gets pretty annoyed with the clingy behaviors. Which is why I advocate that if anyone is to do the chasing that it might as well be the man, since when women do it, it seems to lead to a crash and burn for her more so than it does for the men. You also have to remember that men are natural born hunters and therefore it makes sense that they'd feel far more secure and excited about going after the thing they want(their prey) then a woman. Men(again not to generalize) probably get more of a "thrill" out of chasing after a woman, then a woman will get from chasing a man. Which is another reason why I feel that if anyone is to do the chasing just let the man.

[tiredofvampires]

In my experience if a man really likes a woman, he won't mind her taking the lead every now and then and it won't necessarily turn him off if she decided to ask him on a date, text him, or call him. If she gets overly clingy YES he'll get turned off, but if she's simply reaching out in a reasonable time frame, then if he likes her he'll go with it. Maybe the problem is that you haven't met a man that genuinely and truly likes you(or is interested in getting to know you) and that you are attracting emotionally unavailable man, narcissists(men who are absorbed with themselves) or men that just want "sex" or that are only half-interested in you and chances are eventually and overtime even if you had let them take the lead they would have eventually faded.

 

And here, you have just made exactly the point I'm making -- which is that a man who is really into you who is NOT emotionally unavailable, narcissistic, just after sex, or only half-interested in you and destined to fade on you -- will let you take the lead sometimes and welcome your reciprocation.

 

So this is exactly why you'd look for a man like this, and yet you say you let the men take the lead and follow advice from the types of men who discourage women from taking an active role. So what you're setting yourself up for is: the kinds of men you've described here. No deal.

 

You've said that you do things the way you do in order to find a man who is REALLY interested in you, and in your own quote above, as you can see, doing things as you're doing them or other women doing things as you're doing them actually brings you, by your own words, men who are NOT really interested in you.

 

So take your own advice. And likewise, advise other women who are "burnt" to either stop the behaviors that look desperate and clingy OR weed out the men who get turned off by reciprocal advances, because they are game-playing flakes.

 

As for the women who get "burned" because they made efforts at pursuit, you keep describing situations where they became clingy and insecure. Well, naturally that would turn a man/person off. It really is not about the role of the man as pursuer and having to wait for his signal to make him do everything, it's about that woman learning to stop being clingy. The cure for driving men away is not passively letting him do all the wooing, the cure is to NOT BE CLINGY when you like him. If women keep making that mistake, that mistake is on them, not on courtship roles, or men.

 

As you pointed out yourself, "it takes a good amount of compatibility, understanding, maturity, and wanting the 'same' thing out of whatever it is you have" to make a dating approach that is equal work. And why would you ask for anything less? Those are the qualities I seek in a man and a relationship, so that is the approach I'm going to use, from the beginning.

[tiredofvampires]

And by the way, more than once, you've said this discouraging situation happens to women/people in your age range (mid-20's), so I'll say that one of the problems with that age range when it comes to dating is not having the maturity to know how to keep things balanced, and confusing games with "just the way things are" between the sexes.

 

Of course, you can't learn what's best for a relationship and courtship until you've learned the ropes the hard way and been burnt. But that's a matter of individual learning curves, not hard-and-fast truths about how men (or women) operate.

[Batya33]

I think what's changed in the past 10 years is that women (most often, women) tell themselves that an email or text isn't as forward as calling the person on the phone or initiating a conversation in person (i.e. at work or where you typically hang out) so they use email/text as a way to tell themselves that they're not really doing any of the pursuing or initiating. I don't agree- I think it comes accross in the same way and, worse, it's indirect, often misinterpreted and the woman is often left waiting for a reply or wondering whether the message was received. I think it's fine if the woman wants to contact the guy but she shouldn't try to rationalize it as "oh it was just a thank you text".

[HeatherB]

People hate having rules imposed on them. So if you say anything that even remotely sounds like, "You're a woman so this what you have to do," you will get a negative reaction every time. Even from people who agree with the particulars.

 

I agree with your advice as long as it isn't applied too rigidly. What you're actually doing is outlining how someone with high self esteem would act. A lot of the chasing and convincing and oversharing and sleeping with him out of obligation and trying not to scare him away behavior stems from fear that she isn't enough on her own. So she tries to earn his affection and attention by having few needs, not taking up much space, and basically moving her center of gravity from herself to him. It's all about him, and that's not healthy.

 

To me, what she should do depends on her motivation. If she's calling or texting to answer a question or because she has something positive to say, she should. In reasonably small doses. If her main motivation is that she wants to connect and search his words for reassurance that he cares, to try to puzzle out what he's thinking, she shouldn't. The thing is, the very beginning of dating (limerance) is so crazy making and extreme that it's hard for her to even know why she's doing what she's doing and what her true motivation is.

[lostnscared]

Oh believe me I do agree with you that a man that is truly interested will not play games and that the relationship can be balanced in the beginning far MORE than a man that isn't really that into you. On the other hand, when I use the approach I described that is MY way of gauging just how interest a man is. Because essentially a man that is TRULY not interested will only chase a woman for so long, then he moves on. A man that is truly interested will chase until he can get the woman that caught his interest(or at least that has been my experience). Which is why I told that particular person that chances are that even if she had let the man take the lead and try to keep his attention, then eventually overtime he probably would have faded away anyway because he wasn't that into her.

 

And one thing I probably should say that I haven't, is another reason why I allow the man to do the chasing is the law of scarcity--you want what is not easy to get. As well as the fact that the MORE you do, the MORE you invest into that person. So a man that is doing more toward that woman--calling, texting, setting up dates, the more he is investing in her, and getting to know her, which will lead him to place FAR more emotional investment in her then he would if she were doing all the work.

 

And I do take my own advice, in certain situations. For instance if I REALLY liked a guy, then sure every once in a while I may initiate a text, or a phone call, or ask him out. I won't make a habit of doing it, because I want him to invest in me and I want to make sure that I keep at his pace, however I see nothing wrong with taking the lead every now and then if I really like him. The problem with me, and other women(my age) is that it becomes easy to rationalize why you may want to text him more than you know you need to, or why you want to call him as often as you do, or why you are beginning to like him far more than you should for the time length that you've known each other--because let's face it I am(and a lot of women I know) are emotional creatures and it's easy to become really smitten with a guy we really like and that can lead us to doing things that are always logical, smart, and that potentially can scare a man off.

[lostnscared]

I think what's changed in the past 10 years is that women (most often, women) tell themselves that an email or text isn't as forward as calling the person on the phone or initiating a conversation in person (i.e. at work or where you typically hang out) so they use email/text as a way to tell themselves that they're not really doing any of the pursuing or initiating. I don't agree- I think it comes accross in the same way and, worse, it's indirect, often misinterpreted and the woman is often left waiting for a reply or wondering whether the message was received. I think it's fine if the woman wants to contact the guy but she shouldn't try to rationalize it as "oh it was just a thank you text".

 

Pretty much... And along with this, more men text now then they call. Texting isn't seen as a "serious" mode of communication so people may take advantage of it and rationalize it. And texting isn't as personal as making a call, so it's easy to get caught up with doing it.

 

If I like a man, I try to only text him when he texts me--if I don't hear from him in more than a week and I truly like him I may send out a "hello" text but if he doesn't respond or seem interested I move on. There are some people who will continue to text and not get a clue.

[JNapier24]

So how do you explain things when the shoe is on the other foot? As in the more a guy reveals he likes a girl, she seems to, not necessarily lose interest, but get scared away?

 

I do not get any of these games that people seem to play. If a guy likes a girl or a girl likes a guy, what is wrong with showing it? I don't mean constantly texting or calling or asking to hang out, as I understand everyone likes their own space, especially at the start of a relationship. But I really don't get this waiting a certain amount of days to reply or to call, I find it just rude. If I went out on a date with a girl and we both had fun and at the end of the date it was clear that both parties wanted to do it again, plans would either be provisionally made at the end of the night or maybe the next day. If after a great date, I made no contact with the girl for 3-5 days, I would expect her to ignore any calls I did eventually make and vice versa.

 

Basically what I am asking is why can't people just be themselves. If you get excited about a girl, especially early on in a relationship, is it not quite cute or flattering if this is shown......

[jonny15]

So you don't act like a man with women,

 

How does one act like a man? Pee standing up?

 

therefore you tell all the women that it's okay to 'chase' men in order to preserve your own ego?[/QUOTe]

 

Isn't that what women that don't want to chase are doing?

 

That is a double standard. But then again, men aren't suppose to have feelings.