PUA and women

[superfan]

I find the entire PUA idea to be repugnant and the guys that engage in their tactics pathetic. If you have to lie, give backhanded compliments, manipulate and employ strategic maneuvers to get someone to sleep with you, then you are the lowest form of humanity - period. I am not going to feel sorry for any guy who claims they have resorted to these tactics because "being themselves didn't work" or any other number of excuses that blames WOMEN for their own failures. These are the same guys who justify their actions by making over-generalizing statements about women that are both unflattering and un true.

 

That being said, the women who fall for these "games" annoy me almost as much. I won't argue that these tactics work - they obviously do because I have seen friends of mine (people who I otherwise thought of as being smart, sensible women) fall prey to some PUA's games. I have warned one or two of them and some of them listened, but I think low self esteem plays a big role in who this works on and who it doesn't.

 

It doesn't "work" on just any woman. Yes, it does work on some, but not all and from what I understand PUA's are very specific in who they "target" for that reason. It would never work on me, and that is because I am not only VERY discerning and picky. My husband was the first person I had sexual intercourse with and I was 25 years old at the time. I waited not out of any kind of religious belief or devotion, but because I just never met anybody up until that point that I felt was worth the time, effort or giving that part of myself to. MANY guys attempted their PUA tricks or whatever you want to call it, but it's very easy to see right through someone when you have a positive sense of self worth.

 

As someone once said: "you accept the love you think you deserve". Many women fall for these guys because they don't feel like they deserve better.

 

That said, if I ever had slept with someone who turned out to use me or had employed these PUA tactics, I would be angrier at myself than I would be at him because it would be my fault for falling for that garbage.

[rapunzel]

I know what you're saying and I see the argument, logically. Of course the woman bears equal responsibility for the actual act, if it's consensual.

 

I just think there's something really ugly about systematically lying to people and potentially raising false expectations in order to get into their underwear. I wouldn't deny that many men and women alike do it now and again, without really thinking about what they're doing...but to make it a conscious policy, to make it the whole approach to the opposite sex?

 

The fact that the system's exponents tend to have a rather bitter, grim, joyless attitude toward the whole thing maybe doesn't help.

 

I agree with you completely. In a perfect world, we'd all fall mutually in love with the person we have sex with and there would be no need for PUA, or ENA, or AA or NA. :sneakiness:

 

I've read some of the PUA threads on various PUA sites and the ugliness and utter misogyny often displayed towards women (let's face it, PUA was invented by MEN) by these usually young men is appalling and almost frightening. Yet I can only imagine these men are utterly terrified themselves of a real relationship with a real human being, with the inherent emotional risks. Thus in order to avoid emotional risk and stay "on top", their fellow human beings - women - are reduced to objects, conquests, notches on the bed post. Somehow they are getting some false ego fulfillment and a form of enjoyment out of treating women this way. Our throwaway society at it's worst. It is indeed sad and emblematic of the continuing coarsening of the culture. The internet has exponentially made this worse, in my (humble) opinion.

[Blue Spiral]

If you have to lie, give backhanded compliments, manipulate and employ strategic maneuvers to get someone to sleep with you, then you are the lowest form of humanity - period.

 

The phrasing of that bothers me. If you took out the "have to", I'd tend to agree. But by leaving it in, what you're saying is that the lowest rung of the sexual ladder is pathetic--not because of what they do, but simply because of what they are. And that's the sort of power-centric, status-centric thinking that PUA thrives on.

 

There may very well come a day when my FWB approach no longer works. If that happened, and my only remaining option was to try PUA stuff--but I chose not to--would that still make me the lowest form of humanity, as you put it? Not because I actually did, but because I'd have to?

[goodfoot]

The phrasing of that bothers me. If you took out the "have to", I'd tend to agree. But by leaving it in, what you're saying is that the lowest rung of the sexual ladder is pathetic--not because of what they do, but simply because of what they are. And that's the sort of power-centric, status-centric thinking that PUA thrives on.

 

There may very well come a day when my FWB approach no longer works. If that happened, and my only remaining option was to try PUA stuff--but I chose not to--would that still make me the lowest form of humanity, as you put it? Not because I actually did, but because I'd have to?

 

That is a good point. I think a lot of guys get on a high horse and are basically getting mad at other guys for taking their life in their own hands. Like if you have a bad start with females, you're labeled a "loser" and you should never be able to attract women. PUA is being denigrated in this thread, and I think some if it is unfair. I spent some time on a PUA board and it did a lot to help me come into my own as a person. A lot of the advice is the same kind of advice you would get on here on in an issue of Cosmo or Maxim. It isn't all canned conversations and thinly veiled insults. Not many guys that start out in PUA are trying to have sex with dozens of girls. They usually have one girl in mind that they really want, but some as they learn more get caught up in their own hype.

[superfan]

The phrasing of that bothers me. If you took out the "have to", I'd tend to agree. But by leaving it in, what you're saying is that the lowest rung of the sexual ladder is pathetic--not because of what they do, but simply because of what they are. And that's the sort of power-centric, status-centric thinking that PUA thrives on.

 

There may very well come a day when my FWB approach no longer works. If that happened, and my only remaining option was to try PUA stuff--but I chose not to--would that still make me the lowest form of humanity, as you put it? Not because I actually did, but because I'd have to?

 

My apologies - I phrased that wrong. What I meant was that these men often feel that they "have to" rely on these tactics for whatever reason - usually because they haven't had much luck with dating and therefore have become embittered towards women as a result. They feel their only recourse is to lie, manipulate or trick these women into sleeping with them and I call bull crap on that line of thinking.

 

I am not going to deny that for some men it is harder than others to get dates/FWB/relationships. Same goes for women (although I know many will argue that a "woman can always find sex"). If you are not physically "beautiful" (for either gender) or are socially awkward then dating becomes incredibly difficult. I used to be fat and men were just NOT interested. It didn't matter that I was confident, smart, good personality, etc. men just did not want to date the fat girl. So I know what it is like to feel like you are the bottom of the sexual ladder and to have virtually nobody return your interest.

 

However, rather than sit and wallow, or become bitter about it, I changed how I saw things and I changed myself. Yes, I did lose weight, but that as AFTER I resolved to stop pitying myself and feeling sorry for myself. Once I let go of the bitterness, guys actually started to show some interest - including my husband who met me BEFORE I lost 80lbs.

 

These guys who rely on PUA tactics have convinced themselves that because of their "status" at the bottom, that they have no other option but to treat the opposite sex like crap in order to get what they want - almost as a punishment for being rejected or slighted. THAT is what I find pathetic.

[EssexMan]

That is a good point. I think a lot of guys get on a high horse and are basically getting mad at other guys for taking their life in their own hands. Like if you have a bad start with females, you're labeled a "loser" and you should never be able to attract women. PUA is being denigrated in this thread, and I think some if it is unfair.

 

I don't think PUA is unappealing because guys are trying to get laid. It's because of the underlying assumption that women are basically machines that, handled the correct way, can be controlled to produce the desired result. This is some actual (slightly redacted) text I just copied from a PUA site:

 

I met this HB-9 at my university couple days ago and she gave me the IOD look, ***** shield, etc. I ran Pandora's Box and if I'm not mistaken, she should be an NDR (investor, denier, realist). Should have sticked to Mystery's M3 Model (A2 before A3). Now should I just repeat the model from A1 the next time I meet her? and just stay in A2 until she shows interest?

 

It sounds to me more like someone trying to solve a programming problem, or get their car to start, than anything to do with human interaction at all.

[sickandangry]

I have seen friends of mine (people who I otherwise thought of as being smart, sensible women) fall prey to some PUA's games. I have warned one or two of them and some of them listened, but I think low self esteem plays a big role in who this works on and who it doesn't.

 

.

 

What PUA games did your friends fall prey to?

[sickandangry]

Women are basically machines that if you press the right buttons you will get the right results. Why is that unappealing? It is like getting you car to start. You try different things until the engine starts then you can take a ride in your car. What do you do for a living essexboy?

[sickandangry]

Thus in order to avoid emotional risk and stay "on top", their fellow human beings - women - are reduced to objects, conquests, notches on the bed post. Somehow they are getting some false ego fulfillment and a form of enjoyment out of treating women this way. Our throwaway society at it's worst. It is indeed sad and emblematic of the continuing coarsening of the culture. The internet has exponentially made this worse, in my (humble) opinion.

 

The internet has only made it better for PUA to get together and share knowledge and field reports. Then their tricks can be further improved. You are probably a woman who doesnt like men getting their way. PUA are not misogynists they just want to get what they want out of women. So what if men see women as objects? you could say women are possessive of men and see them as prisoners who must never leave them. Men dont like that either. It works both ways

[rapunzel]

I hate to admit I actually laughed reading the above PUA quote. It is actually bordering on comical....if it wasn't so sad and pathetic at the same time.

[superfan]

What PUA games did your friends fall prey to?

 

The main one I see used a lot is "negging". And like I said, for women with low self esteem or low self worth it works. The philosophy behind it is disgusting - bringing somebody down so you can get them to "want you" is beyond sad. Again I notice this kind of thing and try to point it out to friends of mine in the hopes that they will call them on it. Some do, some don't.

 

I had a male friend try that little trick on me once. We were out at a bar and I went to ask the bar tender if he could call us a taxi (as we had gone over the border into the States and our phones were not working). He said he couldn't because he would have to turn off the sound system (the phone was hooked into it or something), but he pointed me to where there was a pay phone. When I came back to the table, my male friend said "if you had better boobs he probably would have done it for you."

 

I was wearing a fairly low cut shirt so I had a bit of cleavage and that comment was obviously meant to make me feel bad about myself. I just laughed and said that if boobs were necessary to make a phone call maybe he should give it a shot. That shut him up. I don't need someone else to validate me, but some women do and that is where this "tactic" can be effective. It's sad on both ends.

[sickandangry]

they have no other option but to treat the opposite sex like crap in order to get what they want - almost as a punishment for being rejected or slighted. THAT is what I find pathetic.

 

Why is it pathetic? Its fair if you have been mistreated to return it. As a punishment as you say. The dating game isnt exactly fair so naturally there will be those at the bottom of the ladder who become bitter. Its nothing to do with working hard to change your self. If you arent good enough as you are, you never will be for those women. You will spend your whole life improving yourself in the hope that it will get you women, but all that effort is a waste.

[goodfoot]

That's not even a neg; that's just an insult. Negs are supposed to be funny.

[rapunzel]

The internet has only made it better for PUA to get together and share knowledge and field reports. Then their tricks can be further improved. You are probably a woman who doesnt like men getting their way. PUA are not misogynists they just want to get what they want out of women. So what if men see women as objects? you could say women are possessive of men and see them as prisoners who must never leave them. Men dont like that either. It works both ways

 

Exactly my point about the internet. I am a woman who loves men and just wants a special one in my life so we can abuse each other. Is that so wrong?

 

I do think some PUA's are misogynists. So what, nothing new - misogyny has been around for a long time. Sure, women use men all the time as well, just in a different way. Certainly some women use men sexually but I doubt there are many PUA sites aimed at women since an average women can probably get laid on any given night of the week if she puts her mind (and body) to it.

 

By the same token, there are numerous sites advising women on how to get ("snare") a man into a relationship so she is not just "used" for sex.

[superfan]

Women are basically machines that if you press the right buttons you will get the right results. Why is that unappealing? It is like getting you car to start. You try different things until the engine starts then you can take a ride in your car. What do you do for a living essexboy?

 

Women are actually HUMAN beings, not machines. That kind of thinking is unappealing because you are dehumanizing them by making comments like that. To say that it is not misogynistic to see women as 'objects' clearly means you don't understand the definition of the word. And yes you could say that SOME women are possessive and SOME women do see men as "prisoners" who can never leave them, but again that is not ALL women. ALL men are not PUA's either (thankfully). If I were to make a generalizing comment about how "all men were only after one thing" that would be pretty inaccurate. I do not see my husband as a prisoner, or an object. He is a human being who I respect. If these PUAs took the time to actually respect women as people, they might get a bit further.

[sickandangry]

negging is used by everybody. Would you like it if all a man ever did was compliment you and say how beautiful you are? Instead you treat them like **** and they start to doubt their worth and start to show an interest. Its all a mind game.

[goodfoot]

Wow, I have no clue what most of that means. I never got to that depth because it takes all the fun out of an interaction if you already know everything you're going to say, and most of what the girl is going to say. I think most PUA's would consider me "inefficient."

[superfan]

That's not even a neg; that's just an insult. Negs are supposed to be funny.

 

Well he said it in a joking tone - he obviously meant for it to be funny which is why I returned his banter. We had been joking about the cleavage-y shirt all night. It was the first immediate example that came to mind.

[EssexMan]

Women are basically machines that if you press the right buttons you will get the right results. Why is that unappealing?

 

Because it's dehumanising, and takes no account of their entitlement to respect as individuals.

 

What do you do for a living essexboy?

 

What's that got to do with anything? I'm not an auto mechanic, if that's what you're asking.

[EssexMan]

I hate to admit I actually laughed reading the above PUA quote. It is actually bordering on comical....if it wasn't so sad and pathetic at the same time.

 

Yup, exactly!

[EssexMan]

You are probably a woman who doesnt like men getting their way.

 

Why can't both people "get their way"?

 

you could say women are possessive of men and see them as prisoners who must never leave them.

 

Doubtless some women are like that, which is equally bad.

[sickandangry]

Women are actually HUMAN beings, not machines. That kind of thinking is unappealing because you are dehumanizing them by making comments like that. To say that it is not misogynistic to see women as 'objects' clearly means you don't understand the definition of the word. And yes you could say that SOME women are possessive and SOME women do see men as "prisoners" who can never leave them, but again that is not ALL women. ALL men are not PUA's either (thankfully). If I were to make a generalizing comment about how "all men were only after one thing" that would be pretty inaccurate. I do not see my husband as a prisoner, or an object. He is a human being who I respect. If these PUAs took the time to actually respect women as people, they might get a bit further.

 

But often PUA may be the only way which works. If you are targetting a hb10, how many options does she have? She has plenty of male attention so you have to do something better than the rest. You probably are not a HB10 so you dont know what the game is really like.

[EssexMan]

Why is it pathetic? Its fair if you have been mistreated to return it. As a punishment as you say.

 

But even if you have been mistreated, the women who have mistreated you are not the ones you are punishing. Again, you're seeing "women" as a mass, lacking individual humanity. It's rather similar to the way enemies are characteristically portrayed in wartime propaganda.

[sickandangry]

Why can't both people "get their way"?

 

I dont know why but it isnt fair. We dont live in a world where everyone gets what they deserve or gets their way.

[superfan]

negging is used by everybody. Would you like it if all a man ever did was compliment you and say how beautiful you are? Instead you treat them like **** and they start to doubt their worth and start to show an interest. Its all a mind game.

 

Umm, yeah I would much prefer my husband to compliment me provided the compliment was genuinely meant. I don't treat ANYBODY like **** and I never have. And when you say that it is fair to "return the punishment" by employing these tactics, that is a little bit sad, especially since most of the time these women that PUA's are hitting on haven't yet DONE anything to them. They target specific women they think these tricks will work on with the mindset of "well she would reject me if I just acted like myself so therefore I will punish her". That is a ridiculous way to think - like pre-emptively hating somebody before they can hate you back.

 

When I was in public school and middle school I was bullied to the point of making me consider taking my life. When I got to high school things got better, but I had become SO bitter by that point that I went out of my way to antagonize/make fun of/attack anybody that I considered "popular" because my automatic assumption was that if I didn't go after them first, they would eventually go after me and the bullying would start all over again. By the time I got to grade 12, I had an actual conversation with one of the guys I had gone out of my way to hate for years and he asked me why I had always been so mean to him, when he had never done anything to me. I was baffled. In my head, he was already a bully despite the fact that we were complete strangers in grade 9 and he knew nothing about my past. I had just assumed he would bully me so I did so first as "recourse". It was juvenile, and I apologized. We later became friends. It wasn't until I let go of that bitter mindset that I saw that it was ME that had been the problem, not them.

 

These men who think this way haven't yet figured that out. I hope they do. Until then, I guess they remain in high school going after their "bullies".