DN Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Your parents haven't slept together in ten years. Clearly this marriage is a sham. Why wouldn't she have a boyfriend? When it's over, it's over.Because it's still cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandora Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 ??? Really? That quote is so melodramatic for this situation. Her mom isn't "evil", and this isn't like someone sitting by idly while Nazis come take away the Jews. This is a YOUNG GIRL, barely 17, who is stuck in an awful situation by the dumb choice her mom is making, and who is trying to look out for both her dad, and her younger brother. Why are you being so harsh to her?? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" ~ Edmund Burke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandora Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Amen. I don't know who died and left DN the ultimate child psychologist who thinks he knows what's best for some anonymous child he's counseling on this forum, OR her brother. Are you familiar with the effects of infidelity on children? They last forever. I don't think any parent who cares about the well-being of their children would subject them to this. It's a form of abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandora Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Just wondering, did some woman cheat on you, and you have a resentment that nobody told you? Cuz..you seem to be reacting to this post with an almost personal, over-reactionary defensiveness and harshness..IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 ??? Really? That quote is so melodramatic for this situation. Her mom isn't "evil", and this isn't like someone sitting by idly while Nazis come take away the Jews. This is a YOUNG GIRL, barely 17, who is stuck in an awful situation by the dumb choice her mom is making, and who is trying to look out for both her dad, and her younger brother. Why are you being so harsh to her??I think you are missing the point about the quote but never mind. It's not a question of being harsh - it's a question of doing the right thing. Harsh dilemmas mean hard choices but if the OP at 17 is too young to handle the opinions she is too young to make the decision to make this call - you can't have it both ways, Just wondering, did some woman cheat on you, and you have a resentment that nobody told you? Cuz..you seem to be reacting to this post with an almost personal, over-reactionary defensiveness and harshness..IMO.A personal attack on me won't help your case, ad hominem attacks merely demonstrate the weakness in your own argument. As it happens, I have been happily married for 38 years and have never cheated not been cheated upon, that is one reason why I know that the OP's mother could have made different choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caligo Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Calling the OP's concern a red herring is going too far when she came here for support and sensible advice. "Sensible" in the sense that if she presents the readers here with a situation, she desires support from that perspective. You have to take into account what we know and not just what is "right" vs. what is "wrong." Moral decisions such as these are not so easily challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Please do not derail the thread with attacks against other members and their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 OP: Your mother failed to protect you from knowledge that is her responsibility to keep secret. That was a transgression on you. The rest is an assumption: we assume your father doesn't know, we assume it would upset him, we assume that between the two of them, they would regard it as cheating. As odd as it is, that is between the two of them. I don't see anything constructive that comes out of you telling anyone anything. If someone were to ask you, tell the truth. Otherwise, as dismissive as it sounds, it is not your business and you need to let the "cheating" aspect of it go. People in marriages make all sorts of arrangements with one another. What is between your parents is unknown to everyone else, even within the same household. There may be something constructive out of you telling your mom that you are angry that she allowed you to find out, even if accidentally, and that now, you are burdened by her secret, as it is none of your business. This is her problem to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ2980 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Its so sad that the OP feels like its her responsibility to look out for her brothers emotional well-being. She shows more maturity than her mum. Look its a difficult position to be placed in and there are good arguments for either side. If it were me in that position I would definitely tell the innocent parent and let them make a decision as to whether they wanted to still live in a relationship that was based on lies and deceit. From what the OP has stated her parents relationship can't get much worse and in some ways I think that a split needs to happen if their is so much toxicity in the home as that must be causing alot of stress on....well, everyone. In saying that I also respect that her intention is to cause her brother any further pain and trauma. If mum is head over heels for this new lover the situation might actually sort itself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Firecracker Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Your mother is NEVER at home. She and your father have nothing between them but children and money ties. You said that you KNOW they wouldn't be married if not for you and your brother. Surely a man who made a million dollars a year is pretty sharp, definitely smart enough to see this marriage is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 The right way to behave if you are having marriage difficulties is this: 1. try to fix the marriage 2. if you can't fix it and find it intolerable to stay, leave and file for divorce 3. then find someone else - don't mix up the order of doing things, and especially don't take the advantages of marriage (home, financial security, etc) while cheating. There are a number of reasons for this, including giving your soon to be ex-spouse the opportunity of finding a new relationship after the separation/divorce. The longer she cheats and stays in the marriage, the more she is building up financial equity and the more he will end up paying her if and when she finally files for divorce. So he gets cheated in every way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 The right way to behave if you are having marriage difficulties is this: 1. try to fix the marriage 2. if you can't fix it and find it intolerable to stay, leave and file for divorce 3. then find someone else - don't mix up the order of doing things, and especially don't take the advantages of marriage (home, financial security, etc) while cheating. There are a number of reasons for this, including giving your soon to be ex-spouse the opportunity of finding a new relationship after the separation/divorce. The longer she cheats and stays in the marriage, the more she is building up financial equity and the more he will end up paying her if and when she finally files for divorce. So he gets cheated in every way possible. DN I often agree with you. But in this instance, I think using the daughter as an agent of change to restore the proper order of things is mixing and mingling issues that were meant to be kept separate. While one might judge/wish/expect the parents' marriage to have been managed differently, that is the responsibility of the parents. The daughter's responsibility is her relationship with her parents and her brother. So, to that end she may raise this issue with her mother first, to repair their relationship, since it was the mother who breached the safe space of daughter-hood. That conversation may lead to several avenues - for starters, she might say "Mom, I won't tell your business, but I won't cover for you either, do not lie in front of me anymore and do not make it my business anymore. Keep me out of it, and keep my brother out of it too. We see more and perceive more than you realize." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 "Mom, I won't tell your business, but I won't cover for you either, do not lie in front of me anymore and do not make it my business anymore. Keep me out of it, and keep my brother out of it too. We see more and perceive more than you realize."By doing that she enters into a conspiracy with her mother to keep this a secret from her father. It then becomes (in fact, it already is) lying by omission. I really feel for the OP because her mother has placed her in an awful position but that doesn't mean she has to take it upon herself to help deceive her father. I know some people think I am being harsh (perhaps this is why some are making personal attacks), but sometimes doing the right thing is hard - and participating in a deceit cannot be the right thing nor can it be justified by convenient assumptions such as 'he probably already knows', 'he's a grown man', he's probably cheating himself' or an assumption that telling him will be detrimental to her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiredofvampires Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 It should be noted that the only definition of "cheating" that is viable is that one person is deceiving the other (or both are, mutually). An arrangement that looks more like an open marriage would not be called cheating. We don't even know if there is deception between the parents, or if the mother is just hiding this from her kids (trying to, anyway -- and unsuccessfully in the case of the OP.) We do not know what has been agreed upon behind closed doors, and what has been decided to keep from the children. So getting in the middle of that would be presumptuous for the OP and for us, as onlookers. All we know is that we have been told that they no longer touch or sleep with eachother. So their sex life is effectually dead. That being the case, anything else is possible about their understandings or agreements. This would be a different picture if the father was still saying he was in love, or wanting to make the marriage work, and his wife was cheating. But both sides have obviously given up. Not saying we know that the dad knows, or that if he doesn't, this isn't "cheating", but we also can fairly guess that a sexual life together -- which is what fidelity is about -- is kaput, and therefore, "cheating" is really a speculative read on this. It's quite possible they have said, "If you want a partner on the side, go ahead. Just don't tell me about it, I don't want to know." That's why it's not for the OP to get in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Better to proceed on what is known rather than convenient unknowns or speculations. "It's quite possible..." has no useful meaning. That is why the OP should tell her father what she knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFCA Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 OP is in a tough spot, made obvious by our own lack of consensus. Its her Mom's business to share with her Dad. OP is not complicit in the deceit by not telling her Dad. If he were to ask her, then she should speak truthfully. Otherwise, she may very well be sharing information he knows, or he doesn't want to know. Its not her relationship to manage and she can't judge fairly whether the information is helpful or harmful. She can hold the mom accountable for lying to her. That may be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiredofvampires Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 "It's quite possible..." has no useful meaning. I disagree. I can't think of something more vital to decision-making than considering the possibilities of the circumstances and their impact. Possibilities of circumstance drive entire court cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I disagree. I can't think of something more vital to decision-making than considering the possibilities of the circumstances and their impact. Possibilities of circumstance drive entire court cases.Well, OK, I think you are wrong and misguided but let's play along. Suppose her Dad does know. He is likely to say "Thanks for your loyalty in telling me, but I already knew and have decided to do nothing until your brother has left home." But this is more supposition based on nothing - and just as valueless. The 'possibilities' are endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 At the risk of being sententious, there is a real lesson to be learned here about what family is about. People talk about loyalty to country, loyalty to 'society and so on but the basic building block of society and a country is the family. Good families (and there are plenty that are not good) are loving, nurturing, kind, mutually protective; and all that is held together by loyalty - and for 'loyal' read 'reliable'. That means you can trust members of your family and the only way trust is developed is by honesty. This is why cheating is so wrong - it undermines or destroys the honesty without which a family cannot properly function. It's not just a question of sexual fidelity, emotional hurt and doubts about parentage; important though those things are. Honesty is the attribute that guarantees those other qualities, those necessities for a strong family. What the OP's mother has done is to destroy that honesty and by allowing that deceit to continue, the whole family structure is based on a lie. And, as previously stated, there is lying by omission as well as commission. Even well -intended lies undermine the foundation of the family. So this is more than about one woman cheating and her child allowing her to get away with it. It is about how we as a society define family and it is worrying that so many people seem to be OK with a family living a lie. It bodes ill for the future that that attitude is so prevalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiredofvampires Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Well, OK, I think you are wrong and misguided but let's play along. Suppose her Dad does know. He is likely to say "Thanks for your loyalty in telling me, but I already knew and have decided to do nothing until your brother has left home." But this is more supposition based on nothing - and just as valueless. The 'possibilities' are endless. Or, he could say, "Oh my god, I'm so glad you told me. I had no idea. Thank you for telling me, this changes my whole life and what I believe I need to do now." That's another POSSIBILITY. It's still unknown if indeed that would happen, so right now it's still characterized as in the realm of "possibility." One of many. Still claiming that possibilities are meaningless? The main thing you disagree with on, with my position and others' of my persuasion on this thread, is whom one should be loyal to. The issue of this thread is torn loyalties. Some have picked the brother, you have picked the father. At the end of the day, each has their own reasons and biases for those sympathies (which I think is where the ad hominem-type questions arise.) And, it seems that you are saying that honesty is an absolute principle, that in all cases, it's wrong to be dishonest. That's the over-arching idea. Lack of honesty destroys families, it destroys marriages, friendships, governments. It's true, dishonesty stinks. But I wouldn't have to wrack my brains to find examples of where lies of either commission or omission were better than the alternative, and in cases, even served important humanitarian purposes. So there is no rule that is absolute except that there can be no absolute rule with no exceptions. (lol, just as a side note, I love that word -- "sententious". I had to look it up, I've never heard it before, and I like to collect/use new words. Ha, it actually describes itself in a way. Not having a go at you, DN, just finding it amusing that the word is itself.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ2980 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I agree with alot of what DN has to say on the topic. For me a person who cheats lacks integrity, morals, loyalty, trustworthiness etc. Nothing good can come out of such an act. Unfortunately we live in a society where peoples moral compasses aren't so strong anymore and you can see that as time goes on it'll further erode. Yes the building blocks of a society start with the family unit and yes its distressing that morals/values/principles that should be automatic are sorely lacking. Like I said in an earlier post I would tell the innocent parent but that's what my conscience would dictate me to do. OP is still very young and she's probably going through a whole range of emotions. The fact that she's been placed in a situation whereby she might have to call her mother out on what she's doing saddens me. She should never have been put in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 So there is no rule that is absolute except that there can be no absolute rule with no exceptions.That is a recipe for anarchy and chaos. It is the same muddled thinking that gives rise to the idea of divided loyalties in this case whereas the loyalty should be to the family and based on trust in the father to do the right thing. Still claiming that possibilities are meaningless?I think you are confusing possibilities with probabilities. Possibilities can include the absurd or convenient. Perhaps my viewpoint can only be understood (if not necessarily agreed with) by parents of older children i.e. those who have experienced family life as a child and a parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverbirch Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hi Arianna. I'm sorry I can't offer good advice other than to give your father and brother lots of love. My father was unfaithful to my mother many times, and many of those times she knew, but she chose not to leave. It had a sad ending, but my mother is very greatly loved by many people, especially her children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Irulan Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I have a philosophy about information gathered by snooping in places you did not belong, and this is what happened with you and your mothers iPhone: unless someone is about to drop dead, the information is not fair game to disseminate. Yes, I've had this one happen to me long ago, while still a youngster, and no, I was cleaning and not snooping but as a child in a family and the parents relationship, it's really not your business to butt in! I didn't tell, and I've never regretted it. Your dad isn't dumb and might suspect anyway...remember, in Ancient Rome they killed the messenger. Stay out of it, is my best advice. Live your life. Your brother isn't going to have to live with one or the other, they'll likely not fight over him as he's so old. Angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Firecracker Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I have a philosophy about information gathered by snooping in places you did not belong, and this is what happened with you and your mothers iPhone: unless someone is about to drop dead, the information is not fair game to disseminate. Yes, I've had this one happen to me long ago, while still a youngster, and no, I was cleaning and not snooping but as a child in a family and the parents relationship, it's really not your business to butt in! I didn't tell, and I've never regretted it. Your dad isn't dumb and might suspect anyway...remember, in Ancient Rome they killed the messenger. Stay out of it, is my best advice. Live your life. Your brother isn't going to have to live with one or the other, they'll likely not fight over him as he's so old. Angel I also kept a secret and do NOT for one minute regret it. As if anyone would have taken my word for that. Yeah, I'm sure they would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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