Still not convinced

[sharky988]

it's just that... had i done nothing and not pressured her, i would have visited for a week "as a friend to catch up" and who knows what would have happened from there... but i blew the best chance i was ever going to have

 

If there's a chance for the two of you in the future, nothing you say or do at this point is going to change it -- not even visiting as a "friend". She ended the relationship and she's going to be the one to make the decision on her own that she wants to get back together.

 

People break up and get back together sometimes after weeks, months, years -- even DECADES -- of NC. This happens because the memories of the relationship cause the dumper to change their mind, not because of any manipulations coming from the dumpee immediately after the breakup. Don't beat yourself up for missing that week-long trip... for all you know that trip could've been the final nails in the coffin for her.

[shackazu]

That's true. I mean, I still disagree somewhat with your characterizing her as dumper and me as dumpee--I really did push her away, and I do need to change a lot. But yeah, I clearly have a long way to go with myself, and maybe she would have seen through however I managed to act during that week trip (as I said, she can read me like a book...and not DFW either, like a "see max run" book), and decided that it wasn't our time to get back together and moved on even more.

 

but i don't have hope of her memories bringing her back. she said that she was both so happy and so sad at the same time with me, and that she didn't want to feel that way again. so it wouldn't have been a conscious decision of "i want to get back together" is what i'm saying, it would have been us spending time together and her realizing that she was falling for me again

[sharky988]

Never underestimate the power of NC + Time. You really don't know what's going on inside her head or what's going to happen.

 

And yeah -- I do agree she probably would've seen through your "friends" act and it could've very likely turned her off even more as she could've ended up feeling pressured or resentful.

[winniethepooh]

so what do i do now? she hasn't replied and i don't think she is going to. should i send one last message

Good grief, stop getting so wound up. She hasn't replied, you don't know why, so wait until you do, or a long time has elapsed.

 

i feel like such a fool. i know that for a while she really was torn and confused. and i feel like i played my cards wrong. i felt really guilty over the things i did wrong, so i was convinced that i needed to try and still be there for her. i couldn't believe that she could actually fall out of love with me. i should have listened to you guys from the get go and stayed NIC.

You feel you feel you feel ... your feelings are screwing with you. Ignore them, and think (I know that's difficult).

 

i keep making mistake after mistake after mistake

I'm not sure you have, neither are you. But nevertheless, if you think you have then stop making them. Wait.

 

it's just that... had i done nothing and not pressured her, i would have visited for a week "as a friend to catch up" and who knows what would have happened from there... but i blew the best chance i was ever going to have

Or you didn't. You might have ended up as just friends.

 

So I just found out something. I had always thought that when she said she "was briefly hooking up with someone but hated it and ended it because he wasn't you" that she meant she had hooked up with someone one time. I probably deluded myself.

Probably.

 

Well I just talked today to a friend who saw her at homecoming in November (a friend who went back to university for the homecoming game), and apparently she was talking to her along with a group of girls, and someone asked my ex if she was seeing anyone, and she replied that she had hooked up several times with a guy. (this happened after our initial conversation where she told me that and where she seemed like she wanted to get back maybe). Well my friend confronted her about it later, and she told her that she had stopped because she still had feelings for me. My friend then asked if she had spoken with me, and told her that she better speak to me.

 

Lo and behold, two days later is when I get a really forced sounding message telling me to move on, because she has, and that she doesn't want to get back together. And then we Skype, where she seems more human and normal and somewhat sad.

Chinese whispers. Now you know why she sounded forced. Because she was.

 

Nevertheless, it's information. File it away for the time being, worry about dealing with it if it becomes necessary to. It shouldn't on the basis that you were broken up at the time (weren't you?) so what she does then is her business. Of course, you have every right to factor her behavior into your choices of where to go from here, but you don't have any choices at the moment until or unless she makes noises about wanting to get back together with you.

 

BUT, the point is, several times?!

No, the point is she was a free agent to do what she wanted.

 

She hooked up with someone more than once, what must have been a month after we had broken up??

So what, even if it was the next day?

 

And she was still being very friendly and close and talking to me.

Ah. Now this is the point. Why was she doing that? Irrelevant question under the present circumstances though.

 

**** this, I feel really betrayed. Who knows, maybe she is still hooking up with this piece of ****.

Maybe. But why is he a piece of ****? If, as far as he knows, she is a free agent, then they are free to do what they want.

 

I want to send her a really long letter that I wrote, where I apologize for the things I did wrong in our relationship, but where I also tell her that I know now that she really did choose to move on, that I feel betrayed for waiting for her, and that this is it, that I can;t be her friend at all, and goodbye.

Stupid idea if what you say is correct about her and these hookups.

 

If she comes back to you as a result, you'll never know if she did because she wanted to or because you made her feel guilty. Well, you will know, if she leaves you again.

 

Alternatively, you'll drive her further away, and possibly further into the arms of the other guy.

 

The only thing appropriate to say, IF you don't want to have anything more to do with her because of this (and you better be very sure of yourself that it's what you want), and IF she responds to your letter, is that you no longer want to have anything to do with her because you heard she was hooking up with someone else repeatedly after you broke up. Don't get dramatic about it, just state it simply, neutrally and unemotionally. I doubt she'll talk to you again for a few years, if ever. Also, you'll burn after that, and probably see it as another mistake to add to your list.

[sharky988]

Sharky, from another thread you said,(about not going NC sometimes) "Agreed. In that circumstance, the Dumper is really a "forced dumper" -- and I think should really be treated more as a Dumpee. If someone's been forced to break up with you -- because you cheated on them, or wouldn't commit, or were too distant -- then NC makes no sense whatsoever! IMHO anyway."

 

Well that's my situation and always has been, but you've always given me the opposite advice--to accept it and let her come to me if she changed her mind.

 

You want to get back together. She doesn't. That makes you the dumpee in my book, my friend.

 

If she was a forced dumper in the beginning, that no longer applies because she's the one pulling away and you're the one trying to get her back. I encouraged you to just accept her decision and give her space because you continued to pursue her, to what I feel is your detriment.

[shackazu]

 

Nevertheless, it's information. File it away for the time being, worry about dealing with it if it becomes necessary to. It shouldn't on the basis that you were broken up at the time (weren't you?) so what she does then is her business. Of course, you have every right to factor her behavior into your choices of where to go from here, but you don't have any choices at the moment until or unless she makes noises about wanting to get back together with you.

 

 

No, the point is she was a free agent to do what she wanted.

 

 

So what, even if it was the next day?

 

I don't really understand how people can have this point of view. It seems like a really shallow view of a relationship. When we were together, I didn't pursue other girls not because we had some technical label, but because I was in love with her, and had absolutely no desire for anyone else. So if someone goes out and hooks up "the next day" just because they are technically a "free agent," that doesn't impress me very much.

 

Feelings are what should matter, not the label. Someone who is cheated on doesn't feel betrayed because someone broke the technicalities of what they should and should not be doing, they feel betrayed because their partner didn't love and desire them to the exclusion of all others. Well same principle.

 

And on a slightly different note, maybe I'll have the luck to have to cross this bridge when I come to it, but I also don't know how people who get back together after having hooked up with others manage to do it. Even now, when all I want is her, I know that it would tear me apart, to know that she had had sex with someone else, even while we were "broken up." Even if it had been a long time I don't know if I could do it. And she knows that one of my insecurities was getting over her having been with other people before me (including a friend of mine, though this was before me and my ex even knew each other), so this also tells me that she wasn't ever considering the possibility of getting back together with me. That even though she may have missed me, she was done permanently.

[shackazu]

Anyway. I just don't know how to get out of this beating myself up rut. I had an incredible girl, who I wanted to be with long term, who adored me and also wanted to be with me long term, wanted to do long distance this year then find a way to be in the same place, and I let my fears get in the way, convinced myself it would never work and I would get hurt, and turned her down. And lo and behold, here I am hurt. I must be the biggest fool on the planet

 

she tried talking to me around graduation, about how she wanted to stay together and do long distance this year and then figure out how to be in the same place from there; i was hesitant and scared of opening my heart up and getting hurt. then she tried again the first few days of africa, except it was more of a resigned "we don't have to do long distance" with a couple very see-through reasons why maybe we shouldn't -- but she clearly still wanted to and was now trying to protect herself probably. and i didn't do what i should have, which is apologized for earlier, said i was scared and that i of course wanted to stay together. and then again toward the end of africa, she didn't want to break up, and i was too convinced that we would never work out, and that i would just end up getting hurt worse in the future if i became more committed.

 

so of course she stopped putting herself out there and closed herself off. how many times was she going to keep doing that to herself? she decided i was torn about being with her, and she was better off not getting hurt continually... and she told me as much.

 

Anyway, I know now that your counsel is to just go off and do my own thing. I think you are probably right. I just don't want to leave things hanging the way they are. I would very much like to send her this:

 

I just wanted to let you know that I understand. You don’t really want to see me; you’re better at moving on. No regrets, right? I’m not happy with how things ended up between us, and I’m sorry for my part in everything. For being self-absorbed in my own fears—my fear of committing and my fear of eventually getting hurt—and for not being present to you in the ways I should have been when we were together. I would love to have a real in person conversation and talk about everything with you, but we are in different places now, and I will respect your desires. I really do understand, and I hope you are having a really happy senior year. I would never wish for anything less for you. With so much love and many smiles,

 

Do you really think that it is a bad idea to do that?

[winniethepooh]

I don't really understand how people can have this point of view. It seems like a really shallow view of a relationship. When we were together, I didn't pursue other girls not because we had some technical label, but because I was in love with her, and had absolutely no desire for anyone else. So if someone goes out and hooks up "the next day" just because they are technically a "free agent," that doesn't impress me very much.

Well, if you and her are to have any hope of getting back together, you better understand it, or at least accept it, because there's nothing either of you can do to change what happened. If you don't at least accept it, then you will feel resentment or bitterness or something which will poison your relationship with her.

 

At the same time, your perspective is also valid, but you cannot keep both that perspective and entertain thoughts of getting back together with her. You can have one or the other, not both.

 

Feelings are what should matter, not the label. Someone who is cheated on doesn't feel betrayed because someone broke the technicalities of what they should and should not be doing, they feel betrayed because their partner didn't love and desire them to the exclusion of all others. Well same principle.

It is what it is. That's what matters. Deal with it one way or another.

 

She didn't cheat, no matter what you feel (unless she was with him before you broke up). If you feel like she cheated on you, then that's something you need to deal with. Either by refusing to accept her back if that's an option available to you, or changing how you feel about it.

 

And on a slightly different note, maybe I'll have the luck to have to cross this bridge when I come to it, but I also don't know how people who get back together after having hooked up with others manage to do it.

Well, if you want to get back together with her and she wants to get back together with you, it's probably a good idea to figure out how they manage to do it. Because some do.

 

Even now, when all I want is her, I know that it would tear me apart, to know that she had had sex with someone else, even while we were "broken up." Even if it had been a long time I don't know if I could do it.

Maybe she knows this, and that is affecting her thoughts and actions at present.

 

And she knows that one of my insecurities was getting over her having been with other people before me

Eh? Were you not with other people before? If you were, why the double standard? If you weren't, and it was important to you to be with someone who also wasn't, then why did you even get started with her?

 

(including a friend of mine, though this was before me and my ex even knew each other),

Well, that's a bigger deal in terms of understanding how you feel, but how could she possibly know she was going to end up with you if she didn't even know you at the time?

 

Given what you just said about how you feel about her hooking up with someone else after you broke up, how much has this previous event affected you in terms of how you felt towards her during the relationship? Was there a degree of resentment all the way through?

 

so this also tells me that she wasn't ever considering the possibility of getting back together with me. That even though she may have missed me, she was done permanently.

No it doesn't, unless she told you that. It tells you that she was with someone else after you broke up. Don't make assumptions unless you're forced to.

 

Sure, it's possible, but there are other possibilities too.

 

Anyway. I just don't know how to get out of this beating myself up rut. I had an incredible girl, who I wanted to be with long term, who adored me and also wanted to be with me long term, wanted to do long distance this year then find a way to be in the same place, and I let my fears get in the way, convinced myself it would never work and I would get hurt, and turned her down. And lo and behold, here I am hurt. I must be the biggest fool on the planet

I doubt it. I think I was a bigger fool than you for a start.

 

she tried talking to me around graduation, about how she wanted to stay together and do long distance this year and then figure out how to be in the same place from there; i was hesitant and scared of opening my heart up and getting hurt. then she tried again the first few days of africa, except it was more of a resigned "we don't have to do long distance" with a couple very see-through reasons why maybe we shouldn't -- but she clearly still wanted to and was now trying to protect herself probably. and i didn't do what i should have, which is apologized for earlier, said i was scared and that i of course wanted to stay together. and then again toward the end of africa, she didn't want to break up, and i was too convinced that we would never work out, and that i would just end up getting hurt worse in the future if i became more committed.

 

so of course she stopped putting herself out there and closed herself off. how many times was she going to keep doing that to herself? she decided i was torn about being with her, and she was better off not getting hurt continually... and she told me as much.

You're revisiting history in a bad way and going backwards. Nothing wrong with analyzing what happened, but you're going around in the same circle and all that is happening is that you're getting dizzy.

 

Anyway, I know now that your counsel is to just go off and do my own thing. I think you are probably right. I just don't want to leave things hanging the way they are. I would very much like to send her this:

 

Do you really think that it is a bad idea to do that?

Yes.

 

Wait. It's only been a day or two since you sent your last message.

[shackazu]

Ok, I will keep waiting. It has been 3 - 4 days, but I will wait.

 

And maybe, I did bring the issue up to her at one point--not in an accusing way, but telling her honestly how I have been conflicted about sex. I did have sex before, with the first girl I fell in love with, but only 3 times. (I've been somewhat traumatized by going to catholic schools my entire life until college, and definitely turned down several opportunities of naked girls in my bed wanting to have sex during my years at college...) I can't be with people casually. I did eventually get over the fact that she had been with other people (not one night stands, but more casually) before, but I did feel awkward and weird and somewhat resentful about her and my friend--who she had known for a little while, but had just hooked up with once, and hadn't been dating. I told her once, but never really had a conversation about it. For her part, she did what she could to help me get over my insecurities.

 

But after a few more days, let's say a week of no reply, what is your take on this?

 

I just wanted to let you know that I understand if you don’t really want to see me. I’m not happy with how things ended up between us, and I’m sorry for my part in everything. I owe you many more words, but in short, for being so self-absorbed in my own insecurities, anxieties, and fears—my fear of committing and then getting hurt—that kept me from being present to you in the ways I should have been when we were together, and also from the relationship that both of us wanted when we were together. I would love to have a real in-person conversation and talk about everything with you, but I understand that we are in different places now, and I will respect your desires. And I hope you are having a really happy senior year; I would never wish for anything less for you. With so much love and so many smiles,

 

 

 

I don't want to appear desperate, and I don't think it does. I also probably need to do something like that for me just to feel like I have some bit of closure, rather than a no response to a question about visiting. I also want to leave the door as wide open as possible, while still showing that I care--I feel like this does that without saying that I will be just friends, without closing the door for her to contact me in the future (but making it clear that any future initiation from her shouldn't be just casual checking up)

[winniethepooh]

Given what you said in your more recent posts about how you feel about her hookups, it sounds insincere.

 

Go and do something that benefits you for the next few days. Run, swim, work. Even buy a 50 euro ticket to another city (not hers) and walk around for a couple of days. Stay in a hostel, meet people, distract yourself.

[shackazu]

but do you think it would hurt me to send it? and i do want her to be happy... that doesn't mean i have to enjoy her being with someone else, but on a not cringing level of course i ultimately want her to be happy.

[Shane Falco]

If there's a chance for the two of you in the future, nothing you say or do at this point is going to change it -- not even visiting as a "friend". She ended the relationship and she's going to be the one to make the decision on her own that she wants to get back together.

 

People break up and get back together sometimes after weeks, months, years -- even DECADES -- of NC. This happens because the memories of the relationship cause the dumper to change their mind, not because of any manipulations coming from the dumpee immediately after the breakup. Don't beat yourself up for missing that week-long trip... for all you know that trip could've been the final nails in the coffin for her.

 

Funny story on this. I was hanging out with one of my friends last week and one of his former co-workers/friends met up with us with his girlfriend. This guy, who is in his late 30s/early 40s, dated his current girlfriend when in high school for four months, they broke up for whatever reason and fell out of touch. Both got married at one point -- he even has three kids -- and divorced and recently started dating again more than two decades later and are planning on moving in together. Point being is that the world works in mysterious ways and you never know what's going to happen next.

[Shane Falco]

I don't agree with any of this. First of all, the odds of you hooking up with someone who has never hooked up with anyone else is virtually zero from this point forward. I bet your ex had hooked up with someone before you met. Second of all, she was free of you and free to do whatever she wanted, as are you. And you have no idea why she initially hooked up with him. After the break with my most recent ex, I hooked up with quite a few women in the immediate aftermath. I didn't do that because I was over my ex or because I was looking for love, I did it because my self-esteem was shot and I needed a boost to prove that I was still a man. It didn't make my longing for my ex any less or make me a bad person. I'm sure my ex has hooked up with someone since. And if for whatever reason our paths should cross again and we reconcile (don't see it happening), I wouldn't care about it at all. I didn't care about who she hooked up with before we met, and I don't care about who she hooks up with after we break. As long as a person is hooking up with me and only me when we are together, that's all I care about. If anything, something trying other things make us realize what we had before. I know I've started dating more recently and all of a sudden, thoughts of my ex which I felt I had worked past have started to come up again.

 

Feelings are great at times, but feelings can also destroy all rational thought at other times. You need to find the balance between the two.

[shackazu]

I have made new female friends, and I hang out with them, spend time with a couple of them in somewhat "dating-ish" type ways. But I don't see them as potential romance. They are friendly, casual dates. And big part of me doesn't want to hook up with anyone so that I can tell my ex, if we were to ever have another shot together, that I never stopped loving her, and that I my waiting for her was my way of loving her.

[Shane Falco]

I have made new female friends, and I hang out with them, spend time with a couple of them in somewhat "dating-ish" type ways. But I don't see them as potential romance. They are friendly, casual dates. And big part of me doesn't want to hook up with anyone so that I can tell my ex, if we were to ever have another shot together, that I never stopped loving her, and that I my waiting for her was my way of loving her.

 

Putting your life on hold isn't going to help your cause. I'm not saying go f--k everything that moves, or even hook up with anyone right now (in your state dating anyone, be it your ex or someone else, is probably a bad idea), but eventually you are going to need to take steps to move on in that aspect of your life.

[shackazu]

Ok, so she finally replied. Here is the reply:

 

"Hi, sorry its taken me this long to answer. I’m so happy to hear that you're well and that you are having a great time I’m sure you are a real French-man by now! haha

 

When are you planning on coming to ______? I’m here until the 21st. I’m really behind on my thesis (haha lets just say I’m far off my 40 page requirement… so I can’t make any promises but you should come see ______! I’m locking myself in my room for the next couple of days but we’ll see. Let me know your plans. Hope all is well

 

Unfortunately, my plan was to go today through Wednesday... Also, I busted up my knee pretty bad playing basketball two weeks ago, and might need to have surgery on it--I can hobble around but not really walk super long distances. However, I am willing to work through those extenuating circumstances. But what do you all make of this message and what do you advise? She seems to have played the same cryptic game as I kind of did, even though she has to know that the only reason I would be coming at all is to see her.

 

Now I am even wondering if I did the right thing by getting in touch and asking this. Maybe it would have been better to wait until May? I doubt we would end up getting back together right now, even if she does still have feelings for me, if for nothing else than the craziness of the rest of her second semester, and the lack of opportunity to spend real time together. We would have just a day or a few days and then another 3 and a half months in between.

 

I am well aware that not everything has to happen all at once. This trip isn't the end all be all--if the best thing to do is to go, be casual, just spend a bit of time together, talk if she brings it up but otherwise let it lie, then that's fine with me. Initiating an emotionally heavy conversation while she is under so much work stress and pressure might not be the best move, after all.

 

Also, should I offer to help her out by proof-reading parts of her thesis chapter? She helped me a lot with mine last year, and I helped her out by reading over and editing her application to a fellowship (that I also helped her put together during the summer) right after we broke up in September...

[winniethepooh]

Ok, so she finally replied.

Here, let me fix that for you ...

 

Ok, so she replied.

Get off your high horse for a start.

 

Now you have an opportunity. Don't screw it up.

 

Here is the reply:

 

"Hi, sorry its taken me this long to answer. I’m so happy to hear that you're well and that you are having a great time I’m sure you are a real French-man by now! haha

Haha, she's joking and possibly being flirty. Or trying to.

 

When are you planning on coming to ______? I’m here until the 21st. I’m really behind on my thesis (haha lets just say I’m far off my 40 page requirement… so I can’t make any promises but you should come see ______! I’m locking myself in my room for the next couple of days but we’ll see. Let me know your plans. Hope all is well

Good.

 

She's buried with her thesis work, perfect reason to blow you off if she doesn't want to see you. But she didn't blow you off.

 

Unfortunately, my plan was to go today through Wednesday... Also, I busted up my knee pretty bad playing basketball two weeks ago, and might need to have surgery on it--I can hobble around but not really walk super long distances. However, I am willing to work through those extenuating circumstances.

Ok. Don't guilt her out about it if you go. Just say your knee is screwed so you can't walk around much (when you get there, not before, don't give her an excuse to tell you not to bother going), and don't make a big deal out of it. Otherwise go and see your mommy instead.

 

Can you even sit on a plane with your busted knee? Take a train?

 

But what do you all make of this message and what do you advise? She seems to have played the same cryptic game as I kind of did,

Serves you right.

 

even though she has to know that the only reason I would be coming at all is to see her.

Well, duh. Yeah. I assume her doing a thesis indicates she does have a bit of intelligence. Despite the fact you tried to make it difficult for her.

 

Now I am even wondering if I did the right thing by getting in touch and asking this. Maybe it would have been better to wait until May?

Forget that now you clot. You've done it. Make the best of it. If you flake on her now I think it's a done deal.

 

I doubt we would end up getting back together right now, even if she does still have feelings for me, if for nothing else than the craziness of the rest of her second semester, and the lack of opportunity to spend real time together. We would have just a day or a few days and then another 3 and a half months in between.

Blah blah blah. Stop it.

 

I am well aware that not everything has to happen all at once.

Quite right.

 

This trip isn't the end all be all--if the best thing to do is to go, be casual, just spend a bit of time together, talk if she brings it up but otherwise let it lie, then that's fine with me. Initiating an emotionally heavy conversation while she is under so much work stress and pressure might not be the best move, after all.

This is not a casual trip. I'm fairly sure she knows it. And it's not for you either - that's quite plain from your posts here. Nevertheless, keep it casual and light by doing other things, and talking about other things, and keep the emotionally heavy stuff as light as possible, but still focused on the best way forwards for you and her.

 

Also, should I offer to help her out by proof-reading parts of her thesis chapter?

No. That's not why you're going there. If she asks, well, deal with it then. Actually, if she asks, that might give you a good read on her agenda. I hope she doesn't. If she does, it might be a strong sign you are or are being friend-zoned.

 

She helped me a lot with mine last year, and I helped her out by reading over and editing her application to a fellowship (that I also helped her put together during the summer) right after we broke up in September...

Blah blah blah.

 

You're going to see if there is something that can be salvaged from the break-up of a relationship that you both valued highly. It's not even clear who dumped who but a couple of things are clear about you.

 

1. You've messed yourself and her around with being flaky about the relationship - LDR, and skin color from what I vaguely remember.

2. You have a significant issue to do with her past sexual liaisons, and her current possible sexual liaisons. Suck it up or put your cards on the table but don't piss around. She's got enough to deal with with her thesis and own turmoil from the relationship break-up. Don't discuss it with her, it's your problem. Figure out what you're going to do about it. And remember, what you heard was second hand. Reality might be that, or better, or worse. Don't ask her about it because you will not get any useful information.

 

Reply to her briefly to keep the connection alive, and to redirect from being cryptic to clear.

 

"Hey, thanks for reply. Ok, cool, I was planning to come this week. I'll let you know the details once I've got them sorted. Understand about the thesis pressure. I'm planning to do other stuff while I'm there too."

 

That's the skeleton. I don't want to write more and put too many words in your mouth - I don't know her, or you for that matter. Make a light-hearted wisecrack perhaps (since she did) but don't go overboard, and if you're not sure, play it safe and don't bother.

 

If you want to be considerate of her thesis preparation, wait a couple of days before going (she said she was going to lock herself in her room), and leave a couple of days before her deadline so she still has a chance to do something without being distracted by you or even just by knowing you're in the same city.

 

I think you should consider clearing up your previous cryptic message and add something along these lines.

 

"Look, I don't want to mislead you about why I'm coming, and I think it's only fair to give you a heads-up. Of course I want to see you, and it would be great to have a coffee and hear about how things are going. But I do also want to try and find a better way forward from here for both of us. Whether that's possible together in a relationship (or working towards one), or as friends, or without any connection, depends on both of us. I'm willing to accept that it's unrealistic to try and figure out too much all at once, especially because right now it's really important to focus on your thesis. But I also think it's worth having a face to face conversation about where we could go from here, and if that's together (which of course is what I want - it seems silly for me to pretend otherwise, and you know that anyway), then we can work out the details later."

 

Again, I'm rushing this a bit, and these are my words, not yours, so don't do a copy-paste if you think it's a good idea. I'm not certain it's a good idea either - hopefully you'll get some other opinions.

 

Part of the reason I suggest this is because you are in no emotional state to play games with her. Being casual and light when your heart is serious and heavy, is playing games after a fashion. A tricky thing to do, to say the least.

 

I'd also suggest sending the first brief message only, then go and make your flight booking at least, then send her the details along with that second message (or something like it). She's possibly opened the door a bit, don't let the wind blow it shut.

 

It's possible there's still someone else on the scene, and/or she's not interested in anything more than a friendship with you. And/or is just being polite rather than telling you to sod off. But at least one advantage with your original message being casual, is that it meant it was easier for her to ignore or blow you off if she didn't want to see you. She responded, and the response sounds positive to me under the circumstances ... as best I can tell in an internet forum about someone I know nothing about.

 

Book into a hostel (unless you're an old man), there will be people to distract you and give you nonsense to talk about. And go and find some other stuff to do in that city so you're not sitting on your miserable arse pining away for her if she really just did want to meet for coffee. Make a list of museums or art galleries to visit, book an opera or concert ticket (book them, don't just think about going), go on a group tour or something. Be busy so that she doesn't feel guilty about focusing on her thesis while you're there, and so that you have something else to do, and talk about.

 

And dude, get your f***ing head together (read that last page of posts you wrote again - they're wet) otherwise it will be a disaster. Don't be a whiny needy prat.

 

One last thing, you cannot back out from this now. You have to go (unless you decide her past and present sexual behavior is a dealbreaker - but good luck finding anyone who fits your ideal in that respect), or you'll never hear from her again.

[shackazu]

Ok. Don't guilt her out about it if you go. Just say your knee is screwed so you can't walk around much (when you get there, not before, don't give her an excuse to tell you not to bother going), and don't make a big deal out of it. Otherwise go and see your mommy instead.

 

Can you even sit on a plane with your busted knee? Take a train?

 

Yeah I can. It's fine.

 

Well, duh. Yeah. I assume her doing a thesis indicates she does have a bit of intelligence. Despite the fact you tried to make it difficult for her.

 

Ha, I like the snark you throw into your responses. Keeps it entertaining.

 

 

Forget that now you clot. You've done it. Make the best of it. If you flake on her now I think it's a done deal.

 

no, you're totally right. I'm going, end of story.

 

 

You're going to see if there is something that can be salvaged from the break-up of a relationship that you both valued highly. It's not even clear who dumped who but a couple of things are clear about you.

 

1. You've messed yourself and her around with being flaky about the relationship - LDR, and skin color from what I vaguely remember.

2. You have a significant issue to do with her past sexual liaisons, and her current possible sexual liaisons. Suck it up or put your cards on the table but don't piss around. She's got enough to deal with with her thesis and own turmoil from the relationship break-up. Don't discuss it with her, it's your problem. Figure out what you're going to do about it. And remember, what you heard was second hand. Reality might be that, or better, or worse. Don't ask her about it because you will not get any useful information.

 

Reply to her briefly to keep the connection alive, and to redirect from being cryptic to clear.

 

"Hey, thanks for reply. Ok, cool, I was planning to come this week. I'll let you know the details once I've got them sorted. Understand about the thesis pressure. I'm planning to do other stuff while I'm there too."

 

That's the skeleton. I don't want to write more and put too many words in your mouth - I don't know her, or you for that matter. Make a light-hearted wisecrack perhaps (since she did) but don't go overboard, and if you're not sure, play it safe and don't bother.

 

If you want to be considerate of her thesis preparation, wait a couple of days before going (she said she was going to lock herself in her room), and leave a couple of days before her deadline so she still has a chance to do something without being distracted by you or even just by knowing you're in the same city.

 

I know, I slid backwards into over-emotionalness yesterday. Honestly, I would get over it and totally forgive whatever she has done this semester or next. She's more important to me that something she did in the past. And I know that it was her trying to deal with her own pain and sadness, which makes it easier.

 

I think you should consider clearing up your previous cryptic message and add something along these lines.

 

"Look, I don't want to mislead you about why I'm coming, and I think it's only fair to give you a heads-up. Of course I want to see you, and it would be great to have a coffee and hear about how things are going. But I do also want to try and find a better way forward from here for both of us. Whether that's possible together in a relationship (or working towards one), or as friends, or without any connection, depends on both of us. I'm willing to accept that it's unrealistic to try and figure out too much all at once, especially because right now it's really important to focus on your thesis. But I also think it's worth having a face to face conversation about where we could go from here, and if that's together (which of course is what I want - it seems silly for me to pretend otherwise, and you know that anyway), then we can work out the details later."

 

Again, I'm rushing this a bit, and these are my words, not yours, so don't do a copy-paste if you think it's a good idea. I'm not certain it's a good idea either - hopefully you'll get some other opinions.

 

Part of the reason I suggest this is because you are in no emotional state to play games with her. Being casual and light when your heart is serious and heavy, is playing games after a fashion. A tricky thing to do, to say the least.

 

Hmm. I don't want to play games. But I don't want to suddenly shift the tone to being heavy and pressure and demanding of her right now. If she sees me, something like that can be said in person, if the opportunity is there.

 

I am going to send the brief reply in a little bit, as soon as I get some more feedback from some of the others who have been posting here. I don't want to do anything rashly. But certainly this afternoon, so that she doesn't think I am playing games or jerking her around. Though honestly, I doubt if she even checks before late tonight, it sounds like she is super busy.

 

And once I am there, when I see her in person, do you have advice? It's hard to speculate on this--maybe we meet up once, maybe we meet up a couple times. Do I just stay light and fun the first time if it seems like we will meet up again the next day, and bring up everything then? Do I wait and give her a chance to broach the subject? Do I wait a little bit, then like halfway through our walk/coffee/whatever bring stuff up?

 

 

 

Oh, and about the timing. You suggested that I don't go straight away but leave her a few days to work, I agree. You also suggested that I leave her a day or two after? How come? To process/spend time with her family before heading back to college? She leaves next Monday, the 21. So that gives me a week to play with. I don't want to go before Wednesday probably, to give her a few days to work. And by your reasoning, I should leave Friday or Saturday. So, Wednesday - Saturday? be there for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday?

[winniethepooh]

It's hard to speculate on this--maybe we meet up once, maybe we meet up a couple times.

Maybe you suggest a coffee an hour or two before you go and do something else you have booked or planned the first day. Then worry about whether you want a coffee or something else the next day depending on how the first day goes. There are two people involved here. You're getting ahead of yourself. Take one step at a time.

 

And once I am there, when I see her in person, do you have advice?

 

Do I just stay light and fun the first time if it seems like we will meet up again the next day, and bring up everything then? Do I wait and give her a chance to broach the subject? Do I wait a little bit, then like halfway through our walk/coffee/whatever bring stuff up?

If you send her the heavy message (it's not that heavy, just putting your cards on the table), then it sets things up so you can easily be casual and light, or heavier if she wants. Don't push it yourself, that's why it's important to do other stuff so you have other things to talk about.

 

It also clarifies why you are staying in a hostel and planning to do other things, rather than leave her guessing about your motivations. She might wonder why you didn't ask to stay with her.

 

I understand your reluctance, and I'm reluctant to say definitely it's a good idea. It's what I would do under the circumstances you describe. But I'm not you and she's not my ex.

 

Oh, and about the timing. You suggested that I don't go straight away but leave her a few days to work, I agree. You also suggested that I leave her a day or two after? How come? To process/spend time with her family before heading back to college?

No, it was to leave her time to finish her thesis. I've misunderstood something. She's with her family now and leaves 21st? But thesis deadline is not for a while? Then all the same, leave a day earlier to leave her on her own with family. She can work while you're there. Make sure you have planned other stuff for you to do on your own. Avoid her family. This is about you and her at the moment.

[winniethepooh]

Honestly, I would get over it and totally forgive whatever she has done this semester or next.

If I was her and read this, I'd dump you for being a jerk. There's nothing to forgive.

 

She is who she is, and she is like many people (men or women). Accept it, or do her a favor and leave her alone (and tell her why so she is under no illusions).

 

Well, next semester is a different story. Don't start talking about or forgiving things that haven't happened yet. That just sounds stupid.

 

She's more important to me that something she did in the past.

I am seriously questioning this part. You better figure it out, because if you go there and you and her fall in love again, it will be 6 months to a year before you get a clear head again. And if you dump her again then for the same reason, that would be particularly cruel and brutal.

 

And I know that it was her trying to deal with her own pain and sadness, which makes it easier.

Make up your mind. You despise her or respect her, not both. Behave accordingly.

 

There is a world of difference between someone who leaves their partner for someone else (especially if they're dishonest about it), and someone who gets with someone else after leaving a partner as a way to avoid the pain of a break-up.

 

Hmm. I don't want to play games. But I don't want to suddenly shift the tone to being heavy and pressure and demanding of her right now. If she sees me, something like that can be said in person, if the opportunity is there.

You will find it way more difficult to actually say some things in person than you think.

[shackazu]

No, it was to leave her time to finish her thesis. I've misunderstood something. She's with her family now and leaves 21st? But thesis deadline is not for a while? Then all the same, leave a day earlier to leave her on her own with family. She can work while you're there. Make sure you have planned other stuff for you to do on your own. Avoid her family. This is about you and her at the moment.

 

The thesis is due in like April. This is just a deadline for like the first chapter, but i'm not sure what he actual date is

[shackazu]

And I understand what you are saying about her hooking up with someone while we are broken up. You are right, it's my insecurity, my problem, and I would never try to make her feel guilty or anything. I wouldn't say anything, unless I were honestly just trying to ask for her help in addressing an insecurity (in the context of us having a relationship). And while my nervous words are one thing, through my actions I think I really have tried to respect that. I didn't press for information when I found out from her, I didn't ask her when, or who, or what it meant, or what they did.

 

And like I said. I am playing the long game (just a phrase--I don't want to "play games" with her), because I honestly see her as someone I want to spend my life with. So if everything takes a little while to unfold, that's ok. And what happens in between can stay in the past. It's unreasonable to expect someone else to wait around for however long, even if she still loves/has feelings for me. I understand that. Like I said, my own views aren't the mainstream, and if I were to have a meaningless hookup, or even date someone for a little while in between, I wouldn't want to be judged. Although I might find it flattering if my partner were a little jealous, or wished that we had both not been with anyone else during our time apart.

[shackazu]

uhoh. So I sent the short reply, told her that I would send her more exact info when I had it. And this is her response (i wished her good luck on the thesis chapter).

 

"thanks! i need it. i only have 5 pages out of 40! i dont know when i'll be free, but i'll tell you the places you must see, etc. maybe you can bring a friend?! anyways, let me know when you have more specific dates!"

 

 

****. maybe i would have been better off going NC until May. this sounds like she only sees me as a potential friend, and thinks that we can just be friends (althout back in november i very emphatically told her that i couldn't be just her friend, and that i didn't want to try to even get to a point where i could, because that wasn't the future i wanted with her). and any conversation we have is going to take place in the midst of what sounds like an absolute ton of stress for her, which isn't good. if she is that stressed out, she isn't going to want to have/have emotional energy to think about us. i should have just kept my distance and waited until May. this was a bad idea. maybe i have played everything up until now completely wrong, allowing her to think of me as her friend and not as her ex (for whom she may or may not still have feelings, though i know for a fact that she did as late as november since that's what she acknowledged to my friend at homecoming...).

[winniethepooh]

uhoh. So I sent the short reply, told her that I would send her more exact info when I had it. And this is her response (i wished her good luck on the thesis chapter).

 

"thanks! i need it. i only have 5 pages out of 40! i dont know when i'll be free, but i'll tell you the places you must see, etc. maybe you can bring a friend?! anyways, let me know when you have more specific dates!"

I agree. Uh oh indeed.

 

Well that's the trouble when communication lacks clarity. She doesn't know if you're coming with the intention of being friends and is perhaps understandably reticent about revealing how she feels. Or only sees you as a friend. Or she might be trying to test you. You can't tell from that.

 

Don't send that second message I suggested for the moment.

 

Your options now are

 

1. Take things at face value, as in it sounds like she just wants to be friends, and decide to call it off. It's the end of the story though, at least for the next year or two or more.

2. Take things at face value, as in it sounds like she just wants to be friends, but take the risk that maybe all is not as it appears, or she might be open to changing her mind, and go anyway. Unfortunately I don't think you're not in a fit emotional state to play it that way and remain unaffected by her presence.

3. Assume she wants more but is afraid to open up to you because she doesn't know what you want. Take the risk and go. But again, your emotional state is a potential handicap here.

4. Send a version of that second message I suggested to put your cards on the table, and give her an opportunity to put hers on the table. It forces the issue though, unless she ignores you (I don't think that will happen), and might push her off the fence onto the wrong side, if she's sitting on the fence.

5. Send something like this "Hi, to be honest, I don't want to bring a friend because the main reason for this trip is to have an opportunity for us to communicate honestly and clearly. I know my communication was very unclear and I want to try to fix that. Whether that means we consider getting back together again (not necessarily right away - that's up to both of us), or stay apart (and how) is something I'm willing to have an open mind about, but I do want to try and be clearer about things than I was."

 

Whether she sees you as a dumper or not plays a part here. And your messy break-up and communication makes it more difficult to know what to do.

 

****. maybe i would have been better off going NC until May. this sounds like she only sees me as a potential friend, and thinks that we can just be friends (althout back in november i very emphatically told her that i couldn't be just her friend, and that i didn't want to try to even get to a point where i could, because that wasn't the future i wanted with her). and any conversation we have is going to take place in the midst of what sounds like an absolute ton of stress for her, which isn't good. if she is that stressed out, she isn't going to want to have/have emotional energy to think about us. i should have just kept my distance and waited until May. this was a bad idea. maybe i have played everything up until now completely wrong, allowing her to think of me as her friend and not as her ex (for whom she may or may not still have feelings, though i know for a fact that she did as late as november since that's what she acknowledged to my friend at homecoming...).

Blah blah blah. That's all a what if option that is not available now. Try not to make assumptions about her. They only thing I can say for sure from her message is that you don't know what's going on in her head. But from a dumpee perspective, I would be very wary of any vague communication from the dumper.

 

The big difference is that a dumpee is forced to move on, so usually once they start, it's hard to turn them around. The dumper chooses to move on, often with a feeling of having the choice to turn around whenever they like.

 

For what it's worth, I received a coffee invitation from my ex not long after she dumped me, but it wasn't clear what her motivation was for meeting. However, since I'd been very clear in communication up to that point, and she had also been clear (turned out she had been ... erm ... less than honest), I thought, I wasn't going to risk meeting her to hear a let's just be friends line. I replied and said as much. Didn't hear anything back from her.

 

The ball is in your court, you have to send it back, or let it go, but if she sees herself as the dumpee, you probably won't get another one.

[winniethepooh]

Like I said, my own views aren't the mainstream, and if I were to have a meaningless hookup, or even date someone for a little while in between, I wouldn't want to be judged.

You sound contradictory to what I thought you said earlier (I haven't got time to search back for the relevant post right now).

 

Although I might find it flattering if my partner were a little jealous, or wished that we had both not been with anyone else during our time apart.

Pathetic attitude. But kind of respect your honesty ... a bit.