Still not convinced

[shackazu]

I'm starting to think that the NC advice I received here ruined my chances of getting back together... I read all these threads and lots of people are trying so hard, or wishing that they could just have contact with their ex, or trying to get to that first step of going and doing something friendly with their ex in order to spend time together. I was already past that without having to do any work--my ex wanted me to come visit for a week and stay with her family. After a relationship where there was real love between us. Like, come on--that was clearly the best chance anyone could ask for. Four months apart, and then go stay with her for a week? How could anyone get a better second shot.

 

Except I really think I screwed it up by listening to the NC, move on first advice. That might be great for someone only concerned about protecting themselves and building a wall. Not for getting your ex back. Especially when she felt pushed away by a lack of commitment and love on my part.

 

Maybe I'm still wrong. All I know is that a couple months ago I had an ex who told me she missed me, clearly still felt strongly for me but just wasn't sure we would work out, but that I was still going to go spend a week (or more) with in an incredibly romantic city. And now I have less than what I started with, as I won't be seeing her in three days. Now I have to work back up to the level of closeness and connection we felt with each other two months ago. And for what???

 

Now I just have to wait four more months until she moves home from college to try and go to her city to see her and do what I should be doing three days from now, but won't be.

[pl3asehelp]

You're right. NC is not used to get the ex back. It's purpose is for you to move on.

[camus154]

Well, no matter what advice you receive here in the forums, you're the one ultimately responsible for making your own decisions and trusting your own judgment. I get the sense that you're somewhat resentful towards the community for having steered you wrong, but that's victim mentality.

 

I would wager that most people getting NC advice here in the forums haven't had the chance to spend a week with an ex. That's a pretty remarkable exception to the norm here.

[Shane Falco]

And perhaps it will work better in four months than it would have in three days. Patience.

[ConfusedGuy25]

NC is to help you move forward, to better yourself and to help yourself heal and change those aspects of the relationship that made her leave you in the first place. It isn't meant to have her crawling back to you, and unfortunately plenty of people say they're going NC for the right reasons when really they aren't..sadly you did that. On the upper hand, what if you went with her for the week and it didn't work out? she became cold while you were there? and it wasn't this great week with her and her family in a romantic city. Besides it has only been four months..have you really changed and worked on yourself and those issues that arose in the beginning? Probably not fully. I think it is a blessing in disguise that you chose not to go, it is still too fresh, too early..and now you have time to fix those things and then maybe when she does come back for college, that chance will come again. Remember, if somebody loves you..that won't change - so if you are meant to be with her, or you want that chance it won't go away.

[FrenchFries]

You're right. My ex texted me for New Year's, and I replied and we exchanged a few texts, and this morning I realize that you're right. I shouldn't have replied, or should have just said simply, "You too." Keeping in touch isn't going to help me get her back, and it's not helping me at all.

 

From now on this guy is doing things your way in 2013.

 

Anyone else hear from their ex last night?

 

What happened since this post to make you so resentful of NC? They are right, it's for moving on with your life, not a ploy to get your ex back.

 

In previous threads you were told that the point of NC was not to win your ex back...so why the confusion here?

[maron]

then... stop NC and call/text/email/telegram/smoke signal her? you can stop your NC, you know. as camus said, you're free to make your own decisions & to trust your judgment, as you're the only one who knows your situation best. and if her answer hurts you, eNA is still going to be here.

[shackazu]

I know you are all just trying to give the best advice you can. I am resentful at myself--I hurt her incredibly, then broke up with her at the end of the summer by not being willing to do long distance, but pleading with her to be my friend (although she also had reasons for breaking up), then went back three weeks later, but still not with a full commitment to LD because I was still scared, and so she suggested being together in the way people are when they date but before they are official. Then she couldn't take that emotionally, and fel better ending things for good.

 

So I am resentful at myself for not just continuing to be supportive until I could show up and visit her for at least a week to show her how much I have changed, how I really felt about her (because she said she wasn't sure if I loved her or not).

 

And this would have been easier to just continue doing. I don't know how to do restart this from this point on after the last two months of not really talking. I hate hurting, but I am willing to go through the hurt to get her back. Love is patient, love is kind" - right? Love doesn't build walls.

[sharky988]

Sometimes we have to build walls with people we love.

 

But if you feel the reasons for this breakup are no longer true for you -- and possibly for her -- and it was a mutual breakup -- then I don't see why you can't just have a phone conversation and straighten things out. If you both want to be together but the problem was you were afraid of committing to a LDR.... but now you've changed your mind..... then what's the problem between you?

[shackazu]

What happened since this post to make you so resentful of NC? They are right, it's for moving on with your life, not a ploy to get your ex back.

 

In previous threads you were told that the point of NC was not to win your ex back...so why the confusion here?

 

the fact that the visit that had been planned is now just two days away...and knowing that it most likely would have resulted in us getting back together since I know, and she confessed, to still having a lot of feelings for me. I know she is just afraid to open up or reach out and be vulnerable because she did that all summer, and doesn't want to get hurt again by having me be torn over her like I was out of all my uncertainty.

[sharky988]

the fact that the visit that had been planned is now just two days away...and knowing that it most likely would have resulted in us getting back together since I know, and she confessed, to still having a lot of feelings for me. I know she is just afraid to open up or reach out and be vulnerable because she did that all summer, and doesn't want to get hurt again by having me be torn over her like I was out of all my uncertainty.

 

I would just ask her if she wants to get back together. If she says yes, I'd see if I could still go on the trip. As I posted above, I'm not understanding what the problem is between you if you both want to get back together.

[shackazu]

Sometimes we have to build walls with people we love.

 

But if you feel the reasons for this breakup are no longer true for you -- and possibly for her -- and it was a mutual breakup -- then I don't see why you can't just have a phone conversation and straighten things out. If you both want to be together but the problem was you were afraid of committing to a LDR.... but now you've changed your mind..... then what's the problem between you?

 

the problem is that it's more than just the LDR uncertainty. fine, i'm nervous about saying this online, even with a screenname, but... i am biracial, and i have always been uncomfortable with myself, making little comments here and there about my hair, or other features. she also has mixed heritage, and one night we had a very deep conversation, and then a few days later when we were having a mini spat she broke down and told me that the thing she hated most was that she knew she wasn't the girl for me because she wasn't the right color. that hurt me so much to hear that i know it hurt her incredibly deeply. it's not true. my uncomfortableness myself has always been about me, and ive been really working on loving myself these last few months. but that's what i have to get past--hurting someone in that way, having her carry that feeling inside for weeks.

 

She said that she shouldn't be with someone who was torn over her, and I know that it is a case of heart vs. head, and I can't break through that over the phone. I've tried, and she said that she doesn't want to get back together. That we were perfect on paper, but that we had problems, and that she saw someone she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with.

[sharky988]

I hear what you're saying, and I understand the feeling that something can't be resolved over the phone -- I've sure had it myself, whether it's true or not I don't know. I think it's a pretty common impulse with a LDR to want to believe if you were face to face, they'd change their mind or all the issues can be worked out.

 

In your situation, from the outside -- to me, anyway -- none of the issues you've described seem so insurmountable. However, what DOES seem insurmountable is the sheer number of conflicts and miscommunications and the overall tendency to break up....... look, either you're both in or you're both out. ALL your issues -- distance, race, logistics, insecurities, timing, etc. -- are there to be dealt with together or you both just walk away.

 

I really think you need to just get a yes or no answer out of her -- and accept it, either way. Relationships are SO complicated.... but the simple truth is that when two people want to be together, they ARE together. If she's broken up with you, it's because she wants to.

 

There comes a point when you DO just have to accept her decision even though you believe she's wrong or misunderstanding the situation. This might be why people were urging you to go NC and let the thing play out without trying to convince her one way or the other. SHE has to decide to be fully on board with this and YOU can't convince her one way or the other. It has to come from her.

 

However if you feel 100% this has to happen face to face, then go see her, either during this trip or right after. What do you have to lose at this point?

 

Also bear in mind this is all just my opinion based on the little bit of your story I'm familiar with here. I'm only trying to offer thought-provoking suggestions to help you figure out a painful situation -- please don't substitute my (or anyone else's) judgment for your own!!

[sharky988]

That we were perfect on paper, but that we had problems, and that she saw someone she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with.

 

If this is what she's said to you, I would respect this and believe her, whether or not you agree.

[shackazu]

yeah i agree that it has to come from her. but it never will unless she has some reason to believe that time 2 would be different - that i would not be uncertain about the future and "torn" like she felt i was, right? it seems like the only way for her to ever start to think that would be pretty regular interaction with me... i understand the not being pushy and pushing her away thing too. although, part of me thinks that she is the "destiny/romance" kind of girl that if i had sent her a love letter every day for months after a few months it would be so touching and proof to her that she would come back... but maybe that's just fantasy.

 

i mean come from her in that she has to be interested, i can't convince her. but i also think i should treat it as trying to date a girl i like - nobody would ever just sit back and wait for a crush to try and start a relationship with them. you would flirt, date, be friendly and charming, maybe a bit mysterious. i just think i am going to need to approach her as a totally fresh relationship, not sit back and wait for her to hopefully do all the work and run to me

[Shane Falco]

the fact that the visit that had been planned is now just two days away...and knowing that it most likely would have resulted in us getting back together since I know, and she confessed, to still having a lot of feelings for me. I know she is just afraid to open up or reach out and be vulnerable because she did that all summer, and doesn't want to get hurt again by having me be torn over her like I was out of all my uncertainty.

 

Since I've been the most vocal about you staying NC, I'm sure I'm the one you are most angry with. You are feeling tension because you were scheduled to make this trip and there's anxiety. You think with a few key words, you can shift everything toward your favor. I know how you feel, I thought this when I spent a weekend with my ex about six weeks after our break. I figured I'd do my thing, be charming and funny and whatever and she'd just fall back into my arms. Because why not, she did it before. And we had a few pretty solid, unawkward conversations before that. Guess what, it didn't happen. She saw me and she was cold, annoyed, just miserable to be around. Same thing could have happened to you this week.

 

That being said, it's not a guarantee. Maybe you would have swept her off her feet. Or maybe it would have been awkward as f--k. From what you described, that's a real possibility. It seems like there are serious issues here that are well beyond mine, and most people on here's, paygrade and expertise. The sentence that sharky quoted is pretty damning unfortunately. I don't have the first bit of advice about racial issues in a relationship.

 

It sounds like you have things you have to work through before getting back with this woman, or any woman for that matter. It sucks that you have to go through this and I feel for you, but are you sure you are ready to put your best foot forward? Are you sure that a few more months before she comes back to wherever you are (or you go to where she is, whatever applies) can't help you truly get through these issues? Do you just want her back to have her back or do you want her back because you want a long-lasting relationship with her? These are important questions that you need to think about and put your best foot forward toward if you are serious about this. Have you really made changes, or did you just try to sweep your insecurities under the rug in a transparent attempt to show growth? If you did, they are going to come back and come back worse.

 

I'm rambling here and you can curse my name all you want and blame me for whatever. But you are looking to have this girl in a long-term, healthy relationship, no? If so, you better be sure that you've done everything you can to improve yourself. If you are just feeling anxious and just want to go back to what you had before, you should just quit and save yourself and her wasted time.

[sharky988]

Yeah, that's just a fantasy : )

 

You can't control her thoughts or her feelings or ultimately her decision whether to break up or not. You're still resisting that idea -- which is also why NC is probably seeming pointless to you right now.

 

You really have very little idea of what's going on in her head.... you only know the little bit that she's TOLD YOU about her feelings and reasons for the breakup. It's hard to accept, but her perceptions are every bit as valid and correct as yours -- you can't convince someone to want to be with you.

 

I think that if you really are meant to get together, giving her time and space to reach that conclusion on her own is the best course of action -- but that's just my opinion.

 

Anyhow, I wish you the best of luck and hope it works out the way you want it to!

[winniethepooh]

I'm starting to think that the NC advice I received here ruined my chances of getting back together...

NC is a bit stupid in some circumstances. For example if you dumped her for a silly reason. For example if you both are trying to communicate with each other and both want to find a way to make a relationship work, but a break-up is a result of frustration rather than what one or both of you really want.

 

I'm reading through your posts trying to make sense of it, and failing. So I expect you're both confused and hurt and struggling.

 

I read all these threads and lots of people are trying so hard, or wishing that they could just have contact with their ex, or trying to get to that first step of going and doing something friendly with their ex in order to spend time together. I was already past that without having to do any work--my ex wanted me to come visit for a week and stay with her family.

And you wanted this too? You dumped her ... sort of ... initially?

 

Then it sounds like something worth doing.

 

After a relationship where there was real love between us. Like, come on--that was clearly the best chance anyone could ask for.

Yes.

 

Four months apart, and then go stay with her for a week? How could anyone get a better second shot.

Agree.

 

Except I really think I screwed it up by listening to the NC, move on first advice.

Maybe.

 

That might be great for someone only concerned about protecting themselves and building a wall. Not for getting your ex back. Especially when she felt pushed away by a lack of commitment and love on my part.

Sounds like a rational analysis so far.

 

Maybe I'm still wrong.

Maybe, but I don't think you are wrong.

 

All I know is that a couple months ago I had an ex who told me she missed me, clearly still felt strongly for me but just wasn't sure we would work out,

It's often the case that we're not sure things are going to work out. Breaking up and going NC is a good way to make sure it won't work out.

 

but that I was still going to go spend a week (or more) with in an incredibly romantic city.

Sounds like an opportunity for something.

 

And now I have less than what I started with, as I won't be seeing her in three days.

Is it too late to change that?

 

Now I have to work back up to the level of closeness and connection we felt with each other two months ago. And for what???

For a relationship with each other if that's what you both want.

 

Now I just have to wait four more months until she moves home from college to try and go to her city to see her and do what I should be doing three days from now, but won't be.

Why not?

 

I know you are all just trying to give the best advice you can. I am resentful at myself--I hurt her incredibly, then broke up with her at the end of the summer by not being willing to do long distance, but pleading with her to be my friend (although she also had reasons for breaking up), then went back three weeks later, but still not with a full commitment to LD because I was still scared, and so she suggested being together in the way people are when they date but before they are official. Then she couldn't take that emotionally, and fel better ending things for good.

Sounds like a lot of confusion and struggling and not knowing which way to turn.

 

So I am resentful at myself for not just continuing to be supportive until I could show up and visit her for at least a week to show her how much I have changed, how I really felt about her (because she said she wasn't sure if I loved her or not).

Ask her what she needs from you to show you mean what you say ... if you do love her and want to be with her.

 

And this would have been easier to just continue doing. I don't know how to do restart this from this point on after the last two months of not really talking. I hate hurting, but I am willing to go through the hurt to get her back. Love is patient, love is kind" - right? Love doesn't build walls.

Soppy claptrap. Forget the pithy platitudes and figure out what's realistic and rational.

 

You and her are still willing to communicate right? Keep that alive and try not to burn or hurt each other any more than you have done. Maybe it's salvageable. I dunno yet.

 

the fact that the visit that had been planned is now just two days away...and knowing that it most likely would have resulted in us getting back together since I know, and she confessed, to still having a lot of feelings for me.

Not necessarily most likely, but possible.

 

I know she is just afraid to open up or reach out and be vulnerable because she did that all summer, and doesn't want to get hurt again by having me be torn over her like I was out of all my uncertainty.

Neither of you wants to be hurt again. Figure out the damage done by both of you, and if it can be put in the past and/or repaired. Maybe there is someone/are someones who can help you with that.

 

the problem is that it's more than just the LDR uncertainty.

Problem 1: LDR is difficult. Too difficult? Is there a realistic end to the long-distance part?

 

fine, i'm nervous about saying this online, even with a screenname, but... i am biracial, and i have always been uncomfortable with myself, making little comments here and there about my hair, or other features. she also has mixed heritage, and one night we had a very deep conversation, and then a few days later when we were having a mini spat she broke down and told me that the thing she hated most was that she knew she wasn't the girl for me because she wasn't the right color.

Problem 2: Your respective heritage. Why would she say that? Any truth to it? You have to at least admit that to yourself, because it's not something you can change.

 

that hurt me so much to hear that i know it hurt her incredibly deeply. it's not true.

Ok, so it's not true. Does she know and believe that?

 

my uncomfortableness myself has always been about me, and ive been really working on loving myself these last few months. but that's what i have to get past--hurting someone in that way, having her carry that feeling inside for weeks.

Don't punish her for your insecurities.

 

She said that she shouldn't be with someone who was torn over her, and I know that it is a case of heart vs. head, and I can't break through that over the phone.

What is the conflict between her heart and head?

 

I've tried, and she said that she doesn't want to get back together.

Why not? Is she at least willing to talk about it? It sounds like she is ... or was.

 

That we were perfect on paper, but that we had problems, and that she saw someone she doesn't want to spend the rest of her life with.

That's a big deal. Why doesn't she want to spend the rest of her life with you? Because of things that can't be changed (your race)? Or things that can (your respective attitudes to each other's race)?

 

yeah i agree that it has to come from her. but it never will unless she has some reason to believe that time 2 would be different - that i would not be uncertain about the future and "torn" like she felt i was, right?

What is it about you that makes her think that way? Fallout from dumping her originally or something else? Do you still have opportunity to show her otherwise?

 

it seems like the only way for her to ever start to think that would be pretty regular interaction with me...

Is that her view or yours?

 

i understand the not being pushy and pushing her away thing too. although, part of me thinks that she is the "destiny/romance" kind of girl that if i had sent her a love letter every day for months after a few months it would be so touching and proof to her that she would come back... but maybe that's just fantasy.

Forget that crap for the moment. First figure out what's going on in the real world.

 

i mean come from her in that she has to be interested, i can't convince her.

I'm not convinced she's uninterested. Hurt - yes, but not interested? Hmmmm.

 

but i also think i should treat it as trying to date a girl i like - nobody would ever just sit back and wait for a crush to try and start a relationship with them. you would flirt, date, be friendly and charming, maybe a bit mysterious. i just think i am going to need to approach her as a totally fresh relationship, not sit back and wait for her to hopefully do all the work and run to me

It's not a fresh relationship, she's not a new girl to date, so forget that idea unless you've been broken up and NC for a couple or more years.

 

No, you can't expect her to do all the work. You dumped her and hurt her. You have to do some or a lot of work (unless I've misunderstood something).

 

Going back to the beginning - your post in November ...

 

We had been together for around 7 months, two of them spent in a third world country with an NGO, living together. I just graduated from college, she has a year left still to go -- I am abroad for this year to learn another language, so it was going to be long distance. To make matters worse, we are from different countries. I'm American, she is from Europe -- so it's very unclear where we will be geographically even after her graduation and after my year abroad.

This is important. Is there a realistic way you could be together after the year apart? If not, then it seems a realistic attitude not to have a LDR which will only end eventually.

 

We left the country not really together, because I was afraid of the distance, but we still talked a lot, and then I told her that I didn't want to be held back by being afraid of long distance. So about two weeks after we had left the NGO and parted, we became sort of a confused, semi-relationship. Together, but not entirely together.

Been there, done that. That state of confusion and semi-relationship. It was a disaster. Partly because we had different ideas of what we were - poor communication.

 

That lasted for about another two weeks, until last night she sent me a long message saying that she hasn't enjoyed the uncertainty of what we are, and that when we left that country she was hollowed out inside, and she wanted me to fight for her,

I always think it's a bad sign when someone expects someone else to "fight for them". Just what does she mean exactly?

 

but now she isn't sure that she "loves me the way I deserve,"

How do you deserve to be loved? How does she think you deserve to be loved?

 

and that she felt like I was torn about being with her during the summer.

Were you?

 

Unfortunately, I realized that I really was in love with her, and wanted to change myself in the ways I need to and get over my fear of doing LDR

Did you tell her this?

 

But at the same time, she said that she does still love me, that I have been her best friend, that maybe we are meant to be together in the future, and that she still wanted to see me in January because we had planned that I would come to her city.

Encouraging.

 

So I spent about two months doing LC, with her initiating messaging about half the time, and sometimes seeming to half jokingly tease me the way we used to, and sometimes making references to things when we were together. This past weekend I had a longer conversation with her after I asked whether she still wanted me to come visit in January. She told me that she definitely wanted me to (with an exclamation point) but that she wanted me to come as a friend, and not to have any expectations.

Sounds fair enough under the circumstances.

 

I told her that I still loved her, and that I wanted to come see her, but that I would be coming still in love with her.

Also fair enough you were honest. She might have used that against you but I'm not sure she did.

 

She talked for a bit about how incredibly hurt she had been by me, and said that she didn't want to love someone who had hurt her so much, or who hadn't loved her the way she deserved.

Problem 3: Some damage that needs to be repaired or put in the past.

 

She told me that she was unsure of her feelings for me, but couldn't claim to NOT have feelings for me at all because she had been "hooking up with someone briefly" in an attempt to get over me, but that she had ended it because she "hated it because he wasn't you."

Problem 4: More damage. Are you willing to put that behind you? You can't change what happened.

 

I told her that I haven't been with any other girls, and I would continue to wait until January to see her, but that I didn't think I could be just friends if there was nothing between us afterwards.

Fair enough. Sounds open and honest.

 

But she also told me that she couldn't give me the same promise (acknowledging that this probably hurt me and said she was sorry for that), even though she "can't imagine being with anyone as serious and as deep as I was with you," and that she wasn't looking for anything generally right now, and had turned down people because she has no time or energy to date or anything like it. (She has an incredible amount of work this year). She also told me that even though she might still have feelings for me, she doesn't want to lead me on in that way either--that she might not have the mental energy to deal with those feelings for the whole year, even after seeing me in January.

Sounds like she's trying to communicate and be open and honest with you also. Painful as it may be to hear (and possibly difficult for her to say).

 

As the conversation continued, she shifted from saying that she only wanted to see me as a friend to saying that she could tell how much I had changed already, and that she would "know" for sure as well as whether we could love each other as I claimed when she saw me.

Also encouraging.

 

So, this is a unique chance and situation, but also tricky;

No kidding.

 

I can't start casually hanging out with her, because I will be visiting her and staying with her family for like 9 days (hopefully, unless I need to leave earlier because things go bad).

Yes, that's an all or nothing situation. Can you change it by staying in some other accommodation to give each other a bit of room to breath and take time out from what might be intense and emotionally draining discussions. Careful how you word such a suggestion.

 

What are your takes? Advice?

Well, I don't know if it's even possible for you to still go but if it is, so far I think I would suggest you do.

 

Oh, and another thing to add. I think I really messed up by telling her that I would wait for her and forgive her for having hooked up with that guy...I was trying to show her how much I have already grown. But probably a mistake, since that's essentially permission to keep exploring other guys knowing I will be there still.

Maybe. Or she appreciates that you are trying to focus on making things work between you and her, and not dwell on the past. But yes, she could use that against you.

 

However, I did flat out tell her that if after I see her in January if there's nothing between us, then I can't be her friend. Was that a good thing to do? That was said when she was still saying how hurt she is and doesn't know if she could be with me again, and before her tone kind of changed to saying things like "you say we can love each other so purely, i don't and won't know until I see you," and then "Ok, I will know in January, I am growing in areas you have already grown in, maybe we will be on the same level when we meet," and "this has been such a pivotal and important week for me (something unrelated) maybe this conversation is part of what I will always remember from it."

Save the ultimatums and heavy stuff for face to face conversations if the opportunity to meet is still there, and be very careful what you say and how you say it.

 

First focus on just being comfortable enough to be able to communicate about the tricky stuff.

Then focus on trying to deal with the damage and hurt on the basis that you want to repair them or put them behind you, no matter whether the outcome is a relationship or you part ways.

Then look at the potential problems if you were to continue in a relationship, and what you and her could do so they are not problems any more.

 

On your own, you need to rationally try and figure out why you want a relationship with her. Is it because you don't want to be alone? You want to avoid the pain of breaking up? Or because you and her have a connection that really is worth something. Don't be dreamy or wander through fantasyland about this, be rational. For example, maybe the race thing is a big enough deal that it's a dealbreaker. I don't know what other issues are involved.

 

I'm going to stop here. If you think there is something else of significance that I should read and comment on, tell me.

[shackazu]

Wow, first of all winniethepooh, thanks so much for this really detailed and thoughtful response.

 

NC is a bit stupid in some circumstances. For example if you dumped her for a silly reason. For example if you both are trying to communicate with each other and both want to find a way to make a relationship work, but a break-up is a result of frustration rather than what one or both of you really want.

 

I'm reading through your posts trying to make sense of it, and failing. So I expect you're both confused and hurt and struggling.[/Quote]

 

Yeah, I mean, I certainly am. And though in our last conversation (on Skype) she claimed to be "moving on," and realizing that she could "have what I had with you with someone else," I know that she felt too deeply for me for this to be cut and dry for her, even though she has also told me that she isn't sure if she loves me, and she thinks that she would know if she did. The other things she has said--granted, several months ago now--were more along the lines of "I don't want to love someone who was able to hurt me so much."

 

 

And you wanted this too? You dumped her ... sort of ... initially?

 

Then it sounds like something worth doing.

 

Yeah, at the end of our time together it was me who was convinced that there was no way for us to work out, and that we should break up, and her who really didn't want to. But it was her who ended the quasi-thing.

 

Is it too late to change that?

 

I think so... My plane ticket is for Monday. What happened was, in our last conversation, I said I wasn't sure if I could come as just a friend, and I told her that if she still wanted me to come closer to the date, she could re-extend the invitation. She said that it was really up to me, that I am always welcome, but that fine, she would reinvite me. She hasn't reinvited me, and since that November conversation we have only texted twice, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year texts.

 

It seems like it would be weird to call her up tonight or tomorrow and say, "hey guess what, I'm showing up on Monday."

 

 

Ask her what she needs from you to show you mean what you say ... if you do love her and want to be with her.

 

I definitely want to have another conversation with her, but I don't want to have it over the phone. I know that everyone always thinks things will be different in person, but I really believe that they are. It's a difficult enough discussion as is--and when you haven't seen each other for five months, you are already so disconnected. Being in person would make everything more concrete.

 

I also want getting back together to last. She isn't going to be convinced by logic or some phone call. It's going to be seeing me again, spending some time together and really talking deeply, and I don't think that can be replicated at a distance. I also want to REALLY be ready to bring by best self. Which is why I am thinking of going to her city in late May, when she will be back after having graduated. That seems like the next best time (besides January, which I kinda screwed up) to do this. The only things scaring me about this are 1. My fear that she will just have had more time to get over me and move on even more by then, and 2. Her hooking up with other guys, which rips my heart out (she's not promiscuous or anything, and incredibly busy this year, but it's a college campus all the same. And fear is irrational. I never asked her what "briefly hooking up with" meant, and in my mind I keep thinking slept with. In our conversation when it came up she seemed very apologetic and sad and said "It was a rebound. I was trying to hook up with someone to get over you, but you can't just replace one person with another, it doesn't work that way").

 

 

You and her are still willing to communicate right? Keep that alive and try not to burn or hurt each other any more than you have done. Maybe it's salvageable. I dunno yet.

 

Yeah, I just didn't want to end up friend-zoned.

 

 

Neither of you wants to be hurt again. Figure out the damage done by both of you, and if it can be put in the past and/or repaired. Maybe there is someone/are someones who can help you with that.

 

I mean, I could ask her friends I guess, but she isn't close to very many people. In our last conversation she said once again that she missed me and that I was the only person she has ever been so close to outside her family. I doubt I would get anywhere asking her sister though.

 

Problem 1: LDR is difficult. Too difficult? Is there a realistic end to the long-distance part?

 

That was my initial problem. That there was no specified end to the LD. But I was very caught up in the "****, what to do with my life now that I have graduated?!?!?" thinking, whereas now I am far more chilled out. Not everything has to happen instantly. I don't need to make my career in the next two years. I want to travel, work abroad more (so does she), and I am willing to move for her. I want to do graduate school eventually, but that's just a vague future plan. Nothing concrete preventing me from being highly mobile and geographically flexible.

 

 

Problem 2: Your respective heritage. Why would she say that? Any truth to it? You have to at least admit that to yourself, because it's not something you can change.

 

I would always make comments about how I wanted straight hair, or highlighting my light eyes (I'm half black, but I have blue eyes and fairly light skin). There's a lot about myself that I haven't been comfortable with - I used to think of myself as unattractive, though I'm not, because I wanted to be a blond Abercrombie model type. It's ridiculous. I tried to emulate different types of "cool," to which she told me that what made things complicated for her was that I wanted to run away from some of the things about myself that she loved the most in an attempt to be "cool." Part of this year so far abroad has been learning to accept and love ALL of myself.

 

 

Ok, so it's not true. Does she know and believe that?

 

I don't know. It was always how I viewed myself, not her. I would love to have children with her complexion that look like her (she is darker than me). I think her skin is so beautiful. But I don't know if she really believes it. That thought must have been so heartbreaking for her to carry inside and believe.

 

 

What is the conflict between her heart and head?

 

I'm guessing at this. When she broke up with me, she said conflicting things. That it's not good for her to be with someone who was so torn over her, that she has always known what she feels for me and what she wants but that it's not what's best for her right now, which is to break up. But who knows if that's still relevant four months later. Maybe she really has moved on and only sees me as a friend.

 

 

That's a big deal. Why doesn't she want to spend the rest of her life with you? Because of things that can't be changed (your race)? Or things that can (your respective attitudes to each other's race)?

 

I think because of how I viewed myself, yes. Also, she said she wants to be with a guy who is true to himself. And that it takes time to become the person she wants to spend the rest of her life with--she did say that she wasn't sure if I could really have changed that much in two months.

 

 

What is it about you that makes her think that way? Fallout from dumping her originally or something else? Do you still have opportunity to show her otherwise?

 

The only way I know of to show her that I am not torn about her, but 100% committed is to not pursue anyone else (I don't really have any desire anyway) and to be there for her and to try and get back together, whether that is now or this summer in person. (She did say that she thought it would be difficult to get back together if we weren't in the same place.

 

 

This is important. Is there a realistic way you could be together after the year apart? If not, then it seems a realistic attitude not to have a LDR which will only end eventually.

 

I have no plans for next year, and would honestly move for her and pursue something wherever that may be.

 

 

 

Were you? [torn to be with her]

 

To be honest, yes. I didn't want to get hurt by being in love with someone in an LDR, and having her break up with me, which happened with my last relationship, the first time I was ever in love, and it was horrible. She never spoke to me again. So I was torn over that, torn over my fears of the future, etc. etc. And I was torn about being us being so young, and thought that there was no way it could work out.

 

Regarding your quotes of our late-October conversation: Yes, I thought that it was very promising afterwards, until two weeks later I got a (rather forced and not her at all sounding) message about how she and I were in the past, she viewed me as a friend, believed that I could change but didn't want to get back together, etc. That led to our Skype conversation where she sounded far more genuine, far more confused about what she wanted again, but still told me that I needed to let her go, and that maybe I deserved someone whose feelings for me wouldn't fade so quickly. I asked her about the change between two weeks prior and then, and she said she was realizing that she could have what she had with me with someone else, and that she didn't want to lead me on, and that between the two conversations, she fell more to the side of that message. But when I asked her if she had moved on, she paused and said "I'm moving on." She never said that she didn't love me, or that she was over me.

 

 

 

On your own, you need to rationally try and figure out why you want a relationship with her. Is it because you don't want to be alone? You want to avoid the pain of breaking up? Or because you and her have a connection that really is worth something. Don't be dreamy or wander through fantasyland about this, be rational. For example, maybe the race thing is a big enough deal that it's a dealbreaker. I don't know what other issues are involved.

 

I'm going to stop here. If you think there is something else of significance that I should read and comment on, tell me.

 

I want to be with her because she is the most incredible girl I have ever met. I wrote a list in my journal of all the things I love about her: it went on for about 4 pages, and it's not superficial fluffy stuff, it's serious stuff about the kind of person she is, what she thinks, does, acts, makes me feel. I won't retype it here, but suffice it to say that this is a girl on whose finger I seriously imagine myself putting a ring in two or three years.

 

It would be easy enough to reinitiate conversation...I think. She hasn't really pressed to continue our last two exchanges beyond two to three texts--my guess is that's because she is respecting what I told her, that I couldn't and didn't want to be only friends with her. But I don't know. Maybe she just has moved on enough that she doesn't need to have me around in that close way anymore.

[shackazu]

oh, also, not sure if it matters, but at the end of our last conversation (the skype one) she told me that i needed to let her go, and that i could find someone else, that she knew i would and hoped i would

[maron]

oh, also, not sure if it matters, but at the end of our last conversation (the skype one) she told me that i needed to let her go, and that i could find someone else, that she knew i would and hoped i would

 

yeah, no. when an ex told me that, i promised myself "only one time, maron. this is one time too many. any future break ups that you go through, you will not give them the chance to say this to you." i empathize.

[winniethepooh]

Wow, first of all winniethepooh, thanks so much for this really detailed and thoughtful response.

You're welcome

 

Yeah, I mean, I certainly am. And though in our last conversation (on Skype) she claimed to be "moving on," and realizing that she could "have what I had with you with someone else," I know that she felt too deeply for me for this to be cut and dry for her, even though she has also told me that she isn't sure if she loves me, and she thinks that she would know if she did. The other things she has said--granted, several months ago now--were more along the lines of "I don't want to love someone who was able to hurt me so much."

Hmmmm. You hopefully know her better than us to know if there is any substance to what she says, or she is just trying to go through the motions of moving on. It's not unreasonable to assume there is or are others in the picture for her by now.

 

Yeah, at the end of our time together it was me who was convinced that there was no way for us to work out, and that we should break up, and her who really didn't want to.

Well, that's painful for her. And you of course, but she's the one who is feeling helpless at this point. Were you trying to listen and understand her point of view?

 

But it was her who ended the quasi-thing.

Quasi-things rarely have a good outcome. Perhaps a reflection of her confusion and hurt rather than a rational perspective on her part.

 

I think so... My plane ticket is for Monday. What happened was, in our last conversation, I said I wasn't sure if I could come as just a friend, and I told her that if she still wanted me to come closer to the date, she could re-extend the invitation. She said that it was really up to me, that I am always welcome, but that fine, she would reinvite me. She hasn't reinvited me, and since that November conversation we have only texted twice, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year texts.

You've left her in a state of confusion, and yourself. She's already laid her heart open to you, she's not going to humiliate herself again and extend the invitation again in the way you want. Inviting you as just a friend is the best she can do under the circumstances. The best you can do is to say you'll come as a friend but you really do want to have a heart to heart talk about whether that's all you two can be, or if there is a way to be something more. You could say you're willing to come as a friend but with an open mind about the outcome, but ask if she is willing to do the same.

 

It seems like it would be weird to call her up tonight or tomorrow and say, "hey guess what, I'm showing up on Monday."

Yeah, don't freak her out. Say you'd really like to still come and visit her but if there is someone else in the picture for her, you don't want to interfere with that.

 

I definitely want to have another conversation with her, but I don't want to have it over the phone.

I understand and agree. Unless you have no choice.

 

I know that everyone always thinks things will be different in person, but I really believe that they are.

Yes, it's always different. For better or for worse.

 

It's a difficult enough discussion as is--and when you haven't seen each other for five months, you are already so disconnected. Being in person would make everything more concrete.

Yup. Well, not sure about being more concrete, but at least you should get better perspective.

 

I also want getting back together to last.

Don't we all

 

She isn't going to be convinced by logic or some phone call. It's going to be seeing me again, spending some time together and really talking deeply, and I don't think that can be replicated at a distance. I also want to REALLY be ready to bring by best self. Which is why I am thinking of going to her city in late May, when she will be back after having graduated. That seems like the next best time (besides January, which I kinda screwed up) to do this. The only things scaring me about this are 1. My fear that she will just have had more time to get over me and move on even more by then, and 2. Her hooking up with other guys, which rips my heart out (she's not promiscuous or anything, and incredibly busy this year, but it's a college campus all the same. And fear is irrational. I never asked her what "briefly hooking up with" meant, and in my mind I keep thinking slept with. In our conversation when it came up she seemed very apologetic and sad and said "It was a rebound. I was trying to hook up with someone to get over you, but you can't just replace one person with another, it doesn't work that way").

All valid points.

 

The longer you wait, the more chance there is that she will connect with someone else (or someone elses) in some way. It's just the way it is. She doesn't have to be actively searching or pursuing because men will pursue her.

 

Yeah, I just didn't want to end up friend-zoned.

Then be friendly but don't be her friend.

 

I mean, I could ask her friends I guess, but she isn't close to very many people.

Not sure if it was clear what I meant. Which was if you are both willing to try again, then sometimes an objective unbiased third party can help you both. Friends and family will often be biased in one direction or another. A therapist or counselor should be unbiased or relatively so. But don't go having conversations with other people to gather information about her. And be wary about getting opinions from friends and family about what to do. Sometimes hidden agendas are very well hidden.

 

In our last conversation she said once again that she missed me and that I was the only person she has ever been so close to outside her family. I doubt I would get anywhere asking her sister though.

Stay away from her family for this sort of discussion unless it's clear you and her want to try again, and you're both confident that a family member can be neutral (assume they can't be).

 

That was my initial problem. That there was no specified end to the LD. But I was very caught up in the "****, what to do with my life now that I have graduated?!?!?" thinking, whereas now I am far more chilled out. Not everything has to happen instantly. I don't need to make my career in the next two years. I want to travel, work abroad more (so does she), and I am willing to move for her.

Bad idea. Be willing to move for the relationship, not her. And don't lose sight of what you might sacrifice.

 

I want to do graduate school eventually, but that's just a vague future plan. Nothing concrete preventing me from being highly mobile and geographically flexible.

Be careful about sacrificing that flexibility given what you said. It's hard to get it back once you do.

 

I would always make comments about how I wanted straight hair, or highlighting my light eyes (I'm half black, but I have blue eyes and fairly light skin). There's a lot about myself that I haven't been comfortable with - I used to think of myself as unattractive, though I'm not, because I wanted to be a blond Abercrombie model type. It's ridiculous. I tried to emulate different types of "cool," to which she told me that what made things complicated for her was that I wanted to run away from some of the things about myself that she loved the most in an attempt to be "cool." Part of this year so far abroad has been learning to accept and love ALL of myself.

We all have good and bad character traits. Embrace the good. Accept or change the bad. But change because it makes you a better person, and because you want to or are at least willing to, not because someone else demands it of you or nags you into doing something you don't want to do. But don't be too quick to dismiss someone else's point of view as wrong either - they might be right, you might be wrong or stupid.

 

I don't know. It was always how I viewed myself, not her. I would love to have children with her complexion that look like her (she is darker than me). I think her skin is so beautiful. But I don't know if she really believes it. That thought must have been so heartbreaking for her to carry inside and believe.

That sounds superficial, although not unusual to think about such things. There had better be some much more compelling reasons to explain the desire to have children with her though.

 

I'm guessing at this. When she broke up with me, she said conflicting things.

Well, that could be a lot to do with you being conflicted.

 

That it's not good for her to be with someone who was so torn over her,

No, but the reality is that sometimes or often we can feel torn about something.

 

that she has always known what she feels for me and what she wants but that it's not what's best for her right now, which is to break up.

Feelings can and do change. She has a bit of thinking to do also. She hasn't always known what she feels for you, she just felt like that when she said so. She didn't feel anything for you before she met you for example.

 

But who knows if that's still relevant four months later.

Indeed.

 

Maybe she really has moved on and only sees me as a friend.

Maybe, but that's distorted by 4 months of only dealing with her imagination of you, not the real you.

 

I think because of how I viewed myself, yes. Also, she said she wants to be with a guy who is true to himself. And that it takes time to become the person she wants to spend the rest of her life with--she did say that she wasn't sure if I could really have changed that much in two months.

This is putting undue pressure on you. You and her change together in a relationship or change independently if you're not in a relationship. You and her are not new people you are meeting for the first time, you have a history, and it is a mistake to deny that.

 

You and her have to figure out if there is enough there to make a real go of it, then figure out how you change together. Or move on alone.

 

The only way I know of to show her that I am not torn about her, but 100% committed is to not pursue anyone else (I don't really have any desire anyway) and to be there for her and to try and get back together, whether that is now or this summer in person.

No, that's a 100% certain way of showing that you are a doormat.

 

Don't pursue anyone else if you don't want to, but don't shy away from meeting women. Go and have a coffee with someone. Don't mislead them though. In a 4 month period on a university campus it is quite likely that more than one man has already asked her out. She might have accepted, she might not. She might be getting into another relationship, she might not.

 

(She did say that she thought it would be difficult to get back together if we weren't in the same place.

Fair point. At least she didn't say it was a dealbreaker.

 

I have no plans for next year, and would honestly move for her and pursue something wherever that may be.

Move for the relationship, if you do, not her. Or move for your own reasons nothing to do with her or the relationship. But then move somewhere else.

 

To be honest, yes. I didn't want to get hurt by being in love with someone in an LDR, and having her break up with me, which happened with my last relationship, the first time I was ever in love, and it was horrible. She never spoke to me again.

So how much of this relationship was a result of you punishing her for your last relationship? We all get poisoned to a greater or lesser extent as the result of a relationship break-up. Deal with that poison so you don't inflict the same damage on the next person.

 

So I was torn over that, torn over my fears of the future, etc. etc. And I was torn about being us being so young, and thought that there was no way it could work out.

In other words, it was doomed from the beginning through no fault of hers. Except for the age. Did you tell her any of this?

 

Regarding your quotes of our late-October conversation: Yes, I thought that it was very promising afterwards, until two weeks later I got a (rather forced and not her at all sounding) message about how she and I were in the past, she viewed me as a friend, believed that I could change but didn't want to get back together, etc.

Best guess is she met someone else.

 

That led to our Skype conversation where she sounded far more genuine, far more confused about what she wanted again, but still told me that I needed to let her go, and that maybe I deserved someone whose feelings for me wouldn't fade so quickly.

But it wasn't serious yet.

 

I asked her about the change between two weeks prior and then, and she said she was realizing that she could have what she had with me with someone else,

Well, well, well.

 

and that she didn't want to lead me on, and that between the two conversations, she fell more to the side of that message. But when I asked her if she had moved on, she paused and said "I'm moving on."

With someone else.

 

She never said that she didn't love me, or that she was over me.

Probably because she still did, and wasn't.

 

There is a common perspective that the best way to move on after a break-up is to find someone else to move on with. And no matter how often people try to sound holier-than-thou and say oh you should get yourself back together first, many people do rebound. It's harder to avoid doing that as a woman, because there will always be men pursing women much more than women pursuing men.

 

To be honest, I'm am changing my perspective after many years of thinking it's better to focus solely on getting yourself back together, and although I wouldn't yet say go rushing into a new full-on relationship or rebound or whatever, I would say try harder and sooner to meet women (or men) with a focus on getting new perspectives, not on finding a new relationship. Just try to keep your balance.

 

I want to be with her because she is the most incredible girl I have ever met. I wrote a list in my journal of all the things I love about her: it went on for about 4 pages, and it's not superficial fluffy stuff, it's serious stuff about the kind of person she is, what she thinks, does, acts, makes me feel.

Hmmmm. I think this sounds way too fluffy.

 

I won't retype it here,

Oh, thank God for that.

 

but suffice it to say that this is a girl on whose finger I seriously imagine myself putting a ring in two or three years.

You sound like a lovesick sap now.

 

It would be easy enough to reinitiate conversation...I think. She hasn't really pressed to continue our last two exchanges beyond two to three texts--my guess is that's because she is respecting what I told her, that I couldn't and didn't want to be only friends with her. But I don't know. Maybe she just has moved on enough that she doesn't need to have me around in that close way anymore.

No one should need to have someone in that way, at least not have that permanent need. Temporarily, sure.

 

I still think she's doing it mostly because she feels she has to, and has no or little choice. And yes, after 4 months, she might be too far gone to want to come back. But if she is the one who feels hurt and feels dumped (the confusion means it is less likely she will see what was, and more likely she will see what she feels), then time acts against you. The longer you leave it, the less likely she is to want to come back.

 

Babbling about rings and other romantic stuff is likely to be inappropriate at the moment - if it is what draws her to you again, then I think the foundation will be weak. Probably too weak, given everything else you said.

 

oh, also, not sure if it matters, but at the end of our last conversation (the skype one) she told me that i needed to let her go, and that i could find someone else, that she knew i would and hoped i would

Yes, it does matter. Sounds like she found someone else. Or she's at least more accepting of the break-up. Or both. If she feels like she was the dumpee, then again, as time goes on, her feelings of attachment to you will fade, and her awareness or feeling that she was treated badly will become more pronounced. How long ago was this?

 

You probably both messed up, but you started it, and she possibly doesn't feel like she did much or anything wrong. That makes your job difficult, especially so since you're still attached, and still emotional about things. You won't get her back by being weak and fluffy, or if you do, then you will end up being dumped sooner or later. But at the same time, too much bravado will probably bury things for good also. Keep trying to communicate if you can to get a sense of where she really is, and if there is still a chance to go and visit her, then consider doing that but don't stay with her, and find some other things to do while you're there independent of her.

 

By the way, for what it's worth, I've jumped on a plane (or make some other dramatic gesture) to go chasing after a woman or try to save a relationship more than once. On every occasion I've looked back and thought ultimately it did more harm than good. Partly or mostly because I was not in a fit state emotionally to do something like that. But I'm not you.

 

Good luck whatever you do. There's no easy road for you from here.

[Boomshine]

You're right. NC is not used to get the ex back. It's purpose is for you to move on.

 

Exactly this. You have to use NC to rebuild YOU. It's only after you've rebuilt yourself (only for the sake of yourself) that you two have a chance. But rebuilding yourself means getting over her. Seeing her as you saw her before you two were even together. Where she was just another girl who you've just met. Where her shooting you down isn't necessarily the end of the world.

 

BUT...

 

Except I really think I screwed it up by listening to the NC, move on first advice. That might be great for someone only concerned about protecting themselves and building a wall. Not for getting your ex back. Especially when she felt pushed away by a lack of commitment and love on my part.

 

You should not have used NC here. Using NC to win an ex back is what you do when you need to get over them. Which is the case for guys who have become insecure, jealous, needy, attention-seeking, etc. Men who had unattractive behaviors which caused their women to fall out of love with them. If your issue was she felt pushed away by a lack of commitment and love, you should have pulled her in tight. Not TOO tight (don't suffocate her and become the unattractive man I was just talking about), but shown her your dedication in acceptable ways.

 

In most cases, NC is your best bet. But you fall into that smaller percentage where she almost felt neglected. Instead of being too needy, you weren't nearly needy enough. It's not over though, if you don't want it to be. You just have to have a better mindset of where she's coming from emotionally. Read up on it, find the answers you need, THEN make your move. Don't act out of fear. That will be your ultimate downfall in this.

[shackazu]

Well I think it's too late for me to get on a plane and go visit. I would literally have to catch the train to the airport right this very minute

 

I should have just said that, yes I could visit as just a friend, and left it at that, and just kept in touch all semester and then visited. When we talked she said she didn't have the time or emotional energy for a relationship or "anything like it" because of all the work and pressure and stress she is under this year. I doubt that in the two weeks between our two serious conversations she found someone new, but who knows.

 

I don't know what the next move would be. The next chance to see her will be in May, after she has graduated and is back home. At any rate, even if she is casually seeing somebody, it's not going to be something serious, both because of the lack of time aspect, and because she is graduating in three and a half months, and I doubt that she is going to want to repeat what happened with me and the long distance thing...

 

So I'm stuck with stay in casual contact this next semester, then go visit her city and try and meet up at the end of May? I know the extent to which this girl was in love with me--she was truly in love with me. I was her first love. But then yes, feelings change. I have no desire whatsoever to get back together with the first girl I fell in love with, and I am so scared that this is how she feels too. I ****ed up so bad, I just can't forgive myself.

[Boomshine]

It's not that she's necessarily found someone new, it's that your relationship didn't have the full effect of seesaw she was looking for. Men want admiration from their women, and women want adoration from their men. If you don't fulfill those needs, they won't see you as a romantic partner anymore. Not that those feelings can't change again later just as they're doing now, but this is the current state of the board game you two are playing, and if you really wanna play the game, you gotta play no matter where your pieces are. Sometimes you get a good start, sometimes you get a bad one. But how you started doesn't determine how you end. How you play throughout the entire game determines whether you win or lose.