Celibacy, Anyone?

[Fudgie]

Yes, it's part of it, but kissing is like a couple of kisses here and there, and making out is... well.. it's making out. And like you said, it doesn't lead to intercourse of climax. Not for me, definitely. Actually, that's not true. A lot of times I can mess around and do stuff and I don't mind if it doesn't lead to anything. I just don't like making out I guess.

 

I agree. Kissing and making out are very different.

 

Kissing is when you just touch lips. Making out is the climbing into your lap, open mouth, hands everywhere business. It's much more intimate. I can understand why you may not like it though, it's messy and not for everyone.

 

I am happy to make out and never have it reach sex though.

[Lady Rashomon]

See, I think I would have to rule out making out, because the most intense emotional connection I've ever had with another man was one in which ALL we did was make out. There was no sex involved at all, and when that ended, I was still devastated. And I'm not willing to get emotionally attached in the state I'm in right now...

 

So I guess celibacy is limited to masturbation.

[Chandra]

See, I think I would have to rule out making out, because the most intense emotional connection I've ever had with another man was one in which ALL we did was make out. There was no sex involved at all, and when that ended, I was still devastated. And I'm not willing to get emotionally attached in the state I'm in right now...

 

So I guess celibacy is limited to masturbation.

 

The new, self-aware type of celibacy for the 21st century: Self-pleasurization! Get emotionally attached to yourself! Call all the shots in your sex life! Pursue every fantasy!

[noneStar]

I think celibacy is only a big deal for a "sexual" person if you're abstaining from all sexual activities, including masturbation. Otherwise if you just limit it to having no sex with other people, it's pretty easy. I've rarely had sex with others, can go years and years without doing so, but I have to masturbate at least once a day. Never had a great sexual experience with another person, and don't think it is possible, so maybe that's why I don't see it as a big deal...

[Lady Rashomon]

I think celibacy is only a big deal for a "sexual" person if you're abstaining from all sexual activities, including masturbation. Otherwise if you just limit it to having no sex with other people, it's pretty easy. I've rarely had sex with others, can go years and years without doing so, but I have to masturbate at least once a day. Never had a great sexual experience with another person, and don't think it is possible, so maybe that's why I don't see it as a big deal...

 

Out of curiosity, why don't you think a great sexual experience with another person is possible? FYI, I thought the same thing for most of my adult life, and was disconcerted and delightfully surprised when I discovered it wasn't so...

[WindowTo]

First off, I want to apologize if you felt accused or misinterpreted. Also, I was not directing my message only at you but trying to make a broad statement about my beliefs. I did not mean to suggest that you thought sex was evil, but put that forth as more of an aside which might lend itself to anyone who might assume that simply avoiding sex at any given time of emotional sensitivity will always be a benefit (that may not be you it is dependent on how you actually view sex). Try not to take what I say out of context and I will try to do the same for you, I know I quote only lines of what you said below, but I hope I did not detract from what you meant as a coherent passage because I know that you have to take all of what I said in to get the whole picture as well So getting on with the rebuttal:

 

Okay, what issues, exactly, am I putting in a box?

 

Answer:

 

I know that I am not psychologically ready to be involved with somebody on that level.

 

Further explanation: The argument is largely one of problem solving philosophy here. I don't think one improves upon this problem by just telling yourself that you will not put yourself in any sexual situation no matter what. I agree with an attitude of highly selective sexual encounters to the degree that one should say I am not going to make bad decisions, but I do not agree with the concept that you should tell yourself well my judgment is not perfect so I should just wait and do nothing because my emotions are a mess. I believe making good judgments about sex are about being able to identify the bad messy emotions and disassociate them when it is time to make a decision about whether to have sex or not. This is not a skill that is learned through ignoring the process and being celibate, it is a skill that is learned by enforcing the decision to make good decisions. I feel that going celibate simply reinforces people's excuses to use their messy feelings to inform their sexual decisions. Furthermore, I think the truth is that if they met the right person in the right situation that even if they knew it would be a good decision to engage in sex, they would be held back by their decision of celibacy which tells them and those around them that they again do not know how to make good decisions. The things that we tell ourselves are very powerful in the way they influence our happiness, so I take issue with this.

 

It's awfully judgmental of you to assume that my not having sex right now means that I am being avoidant.

 

I'm afraid that it does mean that you are avoiding sex and all the required decisions, consequences, and effort that comes with it. The truth is that yes you can wait until you are in a better emotional state until you decide to start having sex again, but blanketing over parts of your life with celibacy is not as good as being able to make good decisions in the heat of emotions because next time you may not be willing to go celibate. I am a big believer in solving problems in context and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It may be a simple semantic tweak (celibacy vs selective celibacy) but I think just the thought is a powerful that encourages people to not let their negative emotions lead their lives.

 

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

[Chandra]

I get what you are saying. I think the majority of people on this thread would agree. I think what Lady Rashomon and others on this post are saying is that in the past their decision-making in regards to sexual acts was somewhwat destructive or at least potentially so. Instead of just going on the their whims of any attraction, they want to approach their sexuality in a reflective way to explore their feelings about themselves and their sexual activity before they are ready to engage in it again.

 

If one approaches it that way, they it does not take a negative connotation, but more of a period of reflection and growth where one can formulate ideas about their past relationships and what they see for the future. I think just engaging in any sexual activity that may seem "right" at the moment could potential cloud this judgment in period of reflection, especially if one is emotional vulnerable.

 

So while I understand that you don't want to put rigid limitations on yourself, at the same time I don't think it is bad to set aside a certain amount of time to explore your feelings about something. If you know it isn't necessary anymore, you can always chose to end it earlier.

[WindowTo]

You are right of course Chandra. I too believe that setting aside a certain amount of time to explore your feelings about something is key alongside identifying one's emotional vulnerability so you can not base your decisions on it and I think that celibacy robs us of the need and impetus to do that. As I said IMO sex is not evil or inherently bad for you like say smoking, so it is not as if quitting is the answer. The definition and emotional connotation of celibacy as a cure to one's problem lend itself to this idea in our heads, as if saying to us that we cannot help but to make these bad decisions whenever we are emotionally vulnerable so we may as well not try. The truth is that these bad decisions will keep coming if you are concrete in that mindset that celibacy promotes. For people who truly cannot control themselves or who use "clouded judgment" to make decisions they know are bad on purpose, I fully approve the use of celibacy for. But I feel that most people who adopt this stance simply miss that admitting that they do in fact have control of their own decisions but they just do not always want to is the first step to never regretting a decision you make about sex again. I mean look, if you are in a very emotionally sensitive state I think the question that you are really asking yourself when you are sitting on the bed does not have to be: is this a good or bad decision? Because the circumstances are what they are whether you are stable or unhappy, the question should be am I going to let this unhappiness be what motivates my decision.

[Lady Rashomon]

WindowTo, I completely understand what you are saying, and typically that has been my approach to most of the decisions I make in my life. Learning to deal intelligently and soundly with our messy emotions isn't something that should take place in a vacuum or whilst on a protracted retreat away from other people.

 

It isn't that I think I can't control myself, but I do know that there is no room in my heart or in my life for sexual contact with another person. It's just something I intuitively KNOW. Have I been in situations in the recent past that could have potentially led to sex? Yes, of course. My decision to be celibate for the time being has stemmed from the fact that none of those situations were comfortable or desirable to me. I am reminded of the line from an Anne Sexton poem that says something to the extent of "beware of love unless every part of you is saying yes, especially the toes." I don't think it's simply a matter of relying on logic and decision-making skills--there is also an innate wisdom in the body that lets us know when it is time to take a break from certain activities and direct the attention to one's internal state. I don't necessarily see celibacy as a panacea for all my ills, but I am all for removing distractions or things that may not currently serve me on my path in order to become more focused.

 

As far as allowing personal unhappiness to motivate one's decision, I am actually much more interested in following my personal bliss right now. I am finding my time alone extremely enriching and wonderful. As I said before, there is no time cap for the celibacy--when it feels right to engage with someone, I will know.

 

Out of curiosity, I am wondering what your response is to people who choose to be celibate because they want to avoid emotional entanglements with the "wrong" person or don't want to become emotionally attached to someone who views sex as recreational rather than emotional. Do you think this approach is misguided because it robs the individual of the freedom to change their biases, or because it presumes that a person has no control over their emotional responses?

[Chandra]

Out of curiosity, I am wondering what your response is to people who choose to be celibate because they want to avoid emotional entanglements with the "wrong" person or don't want to become emotionally attached to someone who views sex as recreational rather than emotional. Do you think this approach is misguided because it robs the individual of the freedom to change their biases, or because it presumes that a person has no control over their emotional responses?

 

When it comes to having sex outside of a relationship, for many of us we are pulled in two directions - the primal urge to seek pleasure and the protective response to avoid pain. I think it's important to understand your feelings and go through the process of how you would react to them. If you are truly in tune with yourself and understand that this is not a desirable action, I think the will to abstain will be overpower the urge to pursue. If you understand yourself, you won't second guess your choice and it won't affect your outcome or position on sexual relationships.

 

I think what WindowTo is getting at is not letting us be controlled by a fear response which ultimately deems sex as evil, immoral or dangerous as celibacy sometimes promotes. It's about being in tune with yourself and your feelings, NOT about setting up ultimatums to protect ourselves from feeling any pain.

 

With every relationship there is some attachment. With attachment, there is always the reality that someday when the relationship ends (And it WILL end someday) that we will suffer pain from it. That fear should not stop you from going out and enjoying sex when you have the opportunity. Just understand yourself, what you are willing and capable of and enjoy the sex that you do have.

 

If I'm in tune with myself and I know that someone uses sex for just recreation and I view it differently, I don't feel the will to pursue and I don't feel guilty or unhappy by not pursuing it.

[Lady Rashomon]

I think I clarified before that I don't view sex as immoral or evil. I overcame one of the largest fears of my life by following through with leaving a relationship I'd been in for nine years. For the most part, everything is good but I am also overcome by conflicting emotions at times (which I think is normal in the aftermath of such a huge life transition). I am not interested in erecting a barrier to those feelings; I'm taking things one day at a time and I'm doing my best to keep my heart open. But I also know that I need to properly mourn the end of this relationship before I can jump into intimacy with another person. Like I said, this is an intuitive decision, not simply a self-protective ultimatum. But pragmatically speaking, I don't think there is anything wrong with being self-protective, especially if I am aware of what I can and cannot handle at the time being. Why do something that I know will bring me needless pain when I am already so fragile?

[WindowTo]

This is a really interesting conversation! Thank you for your collaborative contribution to what I was saying Chandra, words are poor tools but sometimes they get something done. Thank you too Lady Rashomon for taking the time to dissect this further. What Chandra wrote spoke to at a lot of what I was trying to get at.

 

As I said before, there is no time cap for the celibacy--when it feels right to engage with someone, I will know.

 

This part of what Lady Rashomon said cuts to a lot of the meat of the thing. In reality, the actions we might take may not be so different on the surface because a vow of celibacy that can be canceled at will is not a true vow of celibacy at all. But that is not so important because I think we have more been talking about the philosophy of decision making, recovery, and/or protecting/learning from pain. This is sort of my point, why adopt and label your attitude towards sex and adopt a mindset as one of full omission if in reality you are going to choose to let yourself control it after all? You said it yourself that you will break the vow when you "feel" it is right. This is exactly what I am talking about when I say that it is an excuse for people to pretend that they do not have control over their own decisions and why I see the mindset that using the label of celibacy is unhelpful. For example you say:

 

It isn't that I think I can't control myself, but I do know that there is no room in my heart or in my life for sexual contact with another person.

 

Why make a promise that you are not going to keep or that is devoid of its assumed meaning? I think there is a disconnect between what people mean and what they want to be seen as meaning when they say they are going to be celibate. I can say that I am going to be celibate until the next time I have sex, it would be true, but it would not carry the same meaning of intent that you are implying. So to draw the conclusion here, you have said that you KNOW there is no room in your heart or life for sexual contact but just above this I quoted you as saying that you would have such contact if it felt right. This tells me that you do in fact believe that there is room for sexual contact in your life if you found the right person and situation and what I am saying is that that road will be much more useful psychologically if you admit the reality of the path you walk instead of labeling it as celibacy. What constructive weight does the implication of: I will not have sex until I feel like having sex again really hold? Even if you are carrying out much of the contemplation that I suggest during a proclaimed time of celibacy, celibacy, both philosophically and literally is the business of monks, Eunichs, and priests not people who know that they are going to willingly deal with sex. I think it better to adopt the mindset of: I acknowledge that I am going to have sex again, I don't know when it will be, but I will make the best decision available to me using my head, my heart, my past experiences, my principles... and I look forward to the next opportunity to learn from my mistakes and victories because I know that I will learn more by participating then avoiding it. Ultimately I digress. You know yourself better than I, and it is human nature to want to take the path of least resistance so I don't want you to think that I am judging you negatively or that I follow such a path with some absurd degree of strictness myself. I am trying to make a philosophical argument here, so people will agree or disagree on those terms. I know there is more to respond to but I have to go! I will try to get back to it later.

[Lady Rashomon]

Okay, now we're just quibbling over semantics here. Call "celibacy" what you will; I simply meant that I have made a conscious choice to NOT engage in sexual acts with anybody until I feel that I'm in a place to do so. Also, external circumstances alone aren't enough to dictate when the "avowal" will lifted; I think it's less about finding the right person and situation and more about deeply knowing my internal clock. When I say that I will have sex again when it feels right, I highly doubt that will be in a week or a month--it's more likely to be a year, knowing myself! At the same time, I don't see the point in placing an arbitrary time cap on my period of celibacy, as I completely have faith that my body will know when I'm ready to have sex with someone else.

[Chandra]

Okay, now we're just quibbling over semantics here. Call "celibacy" what you will; I simply meant that I have made a conscious choice to NOT engage in sexual acts with anybody until I feel that I'm in a place to do so. Also, external circumstances alone aren't enough to dictate when the "avowal" will lifted; I think it's less about finding the right person and situation and more about deeply knowing my internal clock. When I say that I will have sex again when it feels right, I highly doubt that will be in a week or a month--it's more likely to be a year, knowing myself! At the same time, I don't see the point in placing an arbitrary time cap on my period of celibacy, as I completely have faith that my body will know when I'm ready to have sex with someone else.

 

I agree with you here... if you remember my post from early in this thread.. I'm pretty much taking the same approach. I was just trying to get to the core of what WindowTO was trying to say.

[Lady Rashomon]

I agree with you here... if you remember my post from early in this thread.. I'm pretty much taking the same approach. I was just trying to get to the core of what WindowTO was trying to say.

 

Yeah, I agree with you too. My last rebuttal was a response to WindowTo.

 

Not having sex/not dating/not looking for anything or anyone is actually really quite nice right now.

[noneStar]

Out of curiosity, why don't you think a great sexual experience with another person is possible? FYI, I thought the same thing for most of my adult life, and was disconcerted and delightfully surprised when I discovered it wasn't so...

 

I find it hard to relax and to be completely at ease in the company of another person, which I think would be a prerequisite for a great sexual experience. I even tense up when I am getting a massage or anything like that...but I know how to take care of myself, lol.

[LightbulbSun]

I've always been celibate. I've had a chance to lose it, but decided to wait. I think it was the best decision of my life; no stds, I am a mature adult who knows what he wants sexually, and I don't have to worry about any baby drama.

[orchidrose]

I was involuntarily celibate for nearly a year. It's funny. When I'm having sex regularly, I want it consistently. When I was celibate, it's like my body gave up on the possibility of sex after 3 or 4 months. I still masturbated, but I lost a lot of the sensations and feelings that I had about sleeping with a partner, and didn't want those nearly as much.