I think it's selfish to have kids..

[Trying1]

I am in total agreement with this.

It's like the person who BUYS at kitten from a pet store when there are a trillion strays up for adoption.

 

Humans are a selfish species, but not just about "I want my own flesh and blood" but about everything else.

 

It's all about balance though. We need the species to survive so like I said, some humans were bred to give life and some were not.

 

It's neither right or wrong, it just is!

 

 

 

Why do we need the species to survive?

[Batya33]

I've acknowledged the selfish aspect of it several times and to me it's about whether something is "too selfish". To me it would have been "too selfish" if I had been a single mother by choice, so I didn't choose to go that path. Aren't you being selfish when you go out for dinner? If you didn't, and saved money by eating at home, you could give that money to one of the many starving people in this world who have no dinner.

 

So by going out for dinner you're affecting the health and wellbeing of another human being who could benefit from your money to get a meal. Aren't you being selfish when you use your computer? If you were willing to give up the luxury of having internet access and a computer to use, you could use that money to help someone in need of financial assistance. But you instead act selfishly by using the computer. I'm sure there are many other examples of selfish things you do. Selfish doesn't make it wrong - you have to balance the extent of the selfishness as compared to whether you're hurting another human being and if so, how much, how you're benefiting other human beings, etc.

 

I know I've contributed lots of time, money, energy, effort to other human beings in my life in a very selfless manner and I do so whenever possible, usually every day. And then I also do things that are for my own pleasure -what you would consider "selfish". Seems pretty normal to me. And I do think that my choice to have a child added value to this world in several different ways as well as adding joy to my life too.

 

I read this quote (not verbatim) today, that your birthday is the day you become your own entity, no longer an extension of another person and a "proactive" part of the world. What a gift to the world. And definitely not a selfish aspect!

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

Why do we need the species to survive?

 

I don't believe the species needs to survive for any reason, but that comes from my philosophical perspective and lack of theism. Most people have different beliefs that make them feel our species should or has to absolutely keep going- it would be a travesty to them otherwise.

[meen007]

I agree with you Trying1. I think it's a selfish act, I don't see selfish as having a negative connotation though. But I don't think having a kid is something to aggrandize, nor feel empathy or pity towards. I absolutely abhor parents who have children and then expect empathy of their spanking of children, for example. You have a child you are spending money and time on your genes, and that's great. However, I'm not going to feel sorry for you that you spank your children, I feel sorry for the child instead. It's marianismo.

 

People who adopt, however, is a completely different matter, something very admirable in my opinion.

 

Hehe, it's hilarious that some people think childless people are lazy and taking the easy way out, says so much about how they view children: as a punishment hehe. Too bad they 'ruined' their lives with children (according to their opinion right?).

 

I love children and will probably have one or two some day, and will do everything possible so they'll have the best experience and opportunities as I can afford, and will never, ever, ever ever lay a hand on them, would rather kill myself first, spanking/hitting children is so pathetic.

[3boys]

 

So, would it be less selfish of a woman who found herself pregnant and did not want to be pregnant to terminate the pregnancy even if the father wanted the child or even if there were people who wanted to adopt the child, because by terminating she would be doing the "selfless" thing of not bringing a life into this world?

 

It would be selfish of the woman to do that to the father, and it would be selfish of the father to want to have the child be born.

 

 

 

So, wait, she would be selfish for having the baby (since, as you've repeatedly stated, parents ONLY have children for selfish reasons), but also selfish if she terminated? Hypocrisy, anyone?

 

Oh, I know, we are all to refrain from having sex because birth control is not 100% effective. Or, better yet, we should all be sterilized at birth to insure that nobody gets pregnant "accidentally."

 

This sounds like something out of The Giveror somebody's been watching too much "Life After People." Either that or they're a member of VHEMT....

[Trying1]

I agree with you about some things being "too selfish", and other things being not as selfish, but I still see deciding to have a child as different from everything you've listed. When you decide to have a baby, you're creating a life that could or could not be a good one. I see it as creating a new life(with a lot of risk), for yourself. I guess I just see it more as: not completely fair to the baby. Maybe someone has a baby for themselves and/or for their family members(their parents, sisters, brothers,etc), so then it's not really selfish to the person deciding to have the baby, because they're doing it for others, but it's still not fair to the baby. They have no choice in the matter, obviously. I've just started seeing it as: Parents to be want a baby" Family members: "I want a niece, nephew, grand-baby, etc." So you bring a new baby in to life and now the baby is here and has to deal with everything. I just think of it as making a decision for anyone. You don't know what's in their best interest. You may THINK you do, but you never know. So people deciding to have kids may think they're doing the right thing, but they have no idea how that baby's life is going to go. And all this is very obvious and it's not going to stop people from having children. It's pretty out there, but that's how I'm starting to think about it and I understand when I get older I might start thinking about how I want a baby of my own, but it's hard because I don't know how my thought process will change. As long as I think the way I do, I can't have a baby. I don't think parents are bad people, though. Just to make it clear. My thoughts are a lot different than other people's, so I get how people can still have kids.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh, hypocrisy or contradictory? Either way more than one thing can be selfish. One can be more selfish than the other or they can be equally selfish.

[Fudgie]

Do I think having a kid is selfish? In some ways, yes. It's 2010...we certainly don't need to worry about the species dying off, LOL.

 

But that's just my thought. I'm as childfree as they come (I try to not let my true feelings come out here) but part of being in a free country is letting people do what they want (within reason) and I'm not going to go around, speaking my beliefs when I KNOW it's going to piss people off.

 

All I ask is that parents ONLY have kids for the best reasons. It's for the good of the child. The other I ask is that they leave me (respect me, not ask "WHY AREN'T YOU HAVING KIDS?!) alone, and I'll leave them alone. Don't expect me at your babyshower but I won't belittle you for your choice.

 

Do I get mad when I'm at the store and some insufferable child won't stop screaming? You bet. Do I say anything? No, but in my head I do. Do I dislike being around babies/children? You bet. I avoid them. Do the kids know? No, I wouldn't make a kid feel bad just because I don't like them.

 

I have no obligation to appease parents, become one, or put up with kids that I don't like. Nope, no free babysitting here! But I DO have an obligation to be respectful of their choices, even if I don't agree with them.

[Trying1]

I don't go around saying this to anyone either. I'm NOT disrespectful to people who have kids and it sounds like I like kids more than you do, so that's exactly the reason why I posted my thoughts here. It wasn't meant to offend people, but I just had to say something to someone about it and I thought this would be a good place to do so. This turned into a big argument and that was NOT my intention, believe it or not. I was okay if it turned into a friendly debate, but people got way too angry with what I said...even if they agreed with me.

[Batya33]

"So people deciding to have kids may think they're doing the right thing, but they have no idea how that baby's life is going to go. And all this is very obvious and it's not going to stop people from having children. It's pretty out there, but that's how I'm starting to think about it and I understand when I get older I might start thinking about how I want a baby of my own, but it's hard because I don't know how my thought process will change. As long as I think the way I do, I can't have a baby. I don't think parents are bad people, though. Just to make it clear. My thoughts are a lot different than other people's, so I get how people can still have kids."

 

You shouldn't have a chld if you think this way. But you also shouldn't get married or engaged because that's a huge effect on someone's life and your standard about having children would apply - so how could you know for sure how your married life is going to go? What if your partner isn't happy or as happy as you promised she/he would be - without that kind of guarantee - which you require potential parents to have before having children - how could you possibly be so selfish as to allow someone to make a commitment to you?

On that same token, you shouldn't work for someone else. You'll be asking that person to take the risk that you won't be the ideal employee, and that person will have wasted time and money on you - again, your standard - that you have to be able to guarantee that your decision will work out for the best and in the best interests of the person you're affecting - means that you should never work for someone else and have them risk time and money on you - that's affecting their life too.

 

And of course you also should make sure not to let a pet of yours reproduce because there are enough cats and dogs on the planet too. That would be too selfish by your standards too. (And don't allow someone who lives with you to do that either).

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with not having kids if personally you feel it would be too selfish. It is why I was never a single mother by choice - for me personally I thought it was too selfish and not in the best interests of the child. The problem is that it sounds like you apply your personal opinion - that it is too selfish for you to do this - to people generally - and that's where the problems start. I am interested to hear though how you justify making other major life decisions that affect people's lives without meeting your personal standard of "I have to be able to guarantee that person's happiness".

[Hope75]

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I'm guessing you are not a parent?

 

I can tell you from experience that having children and raising them is one of the most selfless things a person can do. It is ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL about them and their wants and needs 24/7/365, and you are last in line pretty much for the rest of your life.

 

Not really all that selfish.

[Scott12]

Trying1,

 

You can say that having one's own children is selfish, but you're really stretching the definition of selfish in my opinion. You might as well say that not starving is selfish, or that not committing suicide is selfish. Because, after all, if I starved myself or if I committed suicide, then that would allow someone else to (selfishly) consume the resources that I would have consumed had I been alive.

 

Even adopting is selfish, because you're adopting for your own happiness, without taking into consideration that someone else could be better suited to raise that particular, or any, child (someone may have made that point already, but I can't remember).

 

So I'm going to one-up you by saying that YOU'RE being selfish for breathing the air you're breathing now, for using the electricity you're using, for eating the food you eat, and for drinking the water you drink.

 

Scott

[Trying1]

Batya-

 

I see how you could come to those conclusions based on what I said, but again, when you have a child they have no choice in the matter. When you marry someone or someone hires you, it is THEIR choice as to what they want to do with their life. I can't guarantee my husband's happiness, but at least he has a choice in the matter. He can weigh the pros and cons himself. I don't just choose a guy and make him marry me because I want to be married and I think I can make him happy. They decide to hire you or marry you. When you bring a baby onto this planet, it is not the baby's choice.

[Trying1]

Trying1,

 

You can say that having one's own children is selfish, but you're really stretching the definition of selfish in my opinion. You might as well say that not starving is selfish, or that not committing suicide is selfish. Because, after all, if I starved myself or if I committed suicide, then that would allow someone else to (selfishly) consume the resources that I would have consumed had I been alive.

 

Even adopting is selfish, because you're adopting for your own happiness, without taking into consideration that someone else could be better suited to raise that particular, or any, child (someone may have made that point already, but I can't remember).

 

So I'm going to one-up you by saying that YOU'RE being selfish for breathing the air you're breathing now, for using the electricity you're using, for eating the food you eat, and for drinking the water you drink.

 

Scott

 

 

Ah yes, other things are selfish as well. I know this. Adopting can be selfish in the way you say, but at the same time you are really trying to help a child(usually, I hope), while also fulfilling your own happiness. When you decide to have a baby, you're not trying to help a child. That child doesn't exist. The one you adopt does.

[Trying1]

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I'm guessing you are not a parent?

 

I can tell you from experience that having children and raising them is one of the most selfless things a person can do. It is ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL about them and their wants and needs 24/7/365, and you are last in line pretty much for the rest of your life.

 

Not really all that selfish.

 

 

 

Have you read the rest of the thread? There's a lot of discussion on what you've said. I'll reply anyway: Once you have the child, yes, it's pretty selfless, but when you decide to have the kid, I don't believe it's selfless. The things you do for your child only begin after they are created, but if they are not created then there is no reason to be selfless for them. YOU are creating them for what reason in the first place? YOU.

[Scott12]

Ah yes, other things are selfish as well. I know this. Adopting can be selfish in the way you say, but at the same time you are really trying to help a child(usually, I hope), while also fulfilling your own happiness. When you decide to have a baby, you're not trying to help a child. That child doesn't exist. The one you adopt does.

 

Trying1,

 

I don't see how it's any less selfish to help a child that already exists as opposed to helping a child that you bring into existence.

 

Scott

[Trying1]

Trying1,

 

I don't see how it's any less selfish to help a child that already exists as opposed to helping a child that you bring into existence.

 

Scott

 

 

 

Because you're bringing it in to existence. Why create a new life when there are so many others who already exist that need that help? That's one way to look at it. Another is that you don't NEED to bring a new life into existence. We just do it. Why? I'm not completely sure, but I think part of it has to with what we want for ourselves. We're trying to make ourselves happy, complete our families, etc. I don't think people have bad intentions(usually) when they decide to have kids. They're probably thinking "I want to have a baby. I can teach that baby and give it a good life, etc." Why do they NEED to have their own baby, when they could adopt one? They don't NEED, they WANT. Why do they want it so much? And if there were no children to adopt? Why do we need to keep having babies? Why do we keep forcing people to continue life and deal with war and disease and all that? I know there's more than just bad in the world, but why do we feel we have to share that when we're not sure they're going to enjoy it as much we might have? Idk. Hopefully this reply doesn't seem like I'm attacking you or your views, because apparently I keep coming off that way. Maybe I'm just passionate about it at this time. Not sure. This reply is just explaining what I mean in another way.

[Scott12]

Trying,

 

I'm going to address your post piecemeal, because there's a couple different points I want to make.

 

Because you're bringing it in to existence. Why create a new life when there are so many others who already exist that need that help? That's one way to look at it.

 

Okay, here you're stacking the deck to win the argument because you're not adhering to the precepts you've set forth earlier. As far as adopting a child, how do you know that you're the best parent qualified to adopt that child? You could say that if I didn't adopt the child, then how would I know if the child would be adopted, but I could turn right around and say that if I adopt the child, I'll never know if the child would have been adopted or not. You're not being consistent in your arguments.

 

Another is that you don't NEED to bring a new life into existence. We just do it. Why? I'm not completely sure, but I think part of it has to with what we want for ourselves. We're trying to make ourselves happy, complete our families, etc. I don't think people have bad intentions(usually) when they decide to have kids. They're probably thinking "I want to have a baby. I can teach that baby and give it a good life, etc." Why do they NEED to have their own baby, when they could adopt one? They don't NEED, they WANT.

 

Again, you're making a value judgment against natural children and in favor of adopted children. You've yet to make the case that adopting a child is necessarily morally superior to having your own biological child.

 

And if there were no children to adopt? Why do we need to keep having babies? Why do we keep forcing people to continue life and deal with war and disease and all that? I know there's more than just bad in the world, but why do we feel we have to share that when we're not sure they're going to enjoy it as much we might have? Idk. Hopefully this reply doesn't seem like I'm attacking you or your views, because apparently I keep coming off that way. Maybe I'm just passionate about it at this time. Not sure. This reply is just explaining what I mean in another way.

 

Okay, but couldn't you just as easily say what gives us the right to make that decision for them? Why do you assume that the net value of all the "bad" things in the world outweighs the net value of all the "good" things?

 

Scott

[Trying1]

You DON'T know you're the best person to adopt that child, but does that mean you should have your own? I'm saying if you're considering having your own child, adoption would be the less selfish option.

 

I don't assume that the "bad" outweighs the "good", but I also don't assume that if I make a child that they will enjoy life as much I want them to.

[newwave]

What I consider to be selfish reasons for having kids:

 

Someone who doesn't have money, nor a steady relationship but just has to have a baby that taxpayers pay for. THAT'S selfish.

 

Someone who wants a kids because it's the latest "it" thing to have.

 

I wouldn't even consider having kids unless I was financially secure and in a secure marriage.

 

Btw, I consider parents selfish in times where they expect childless to pick up the slack, such as in jobs. I've had jobs where the parents left early while the childless worked longer. Yes that's selfish. Also, when they think because they are parents they are better than childless. Otherwise, no.

[Fudgie]

I don't go around saying this to anyone either. I'm NOT disrespectful to people who have kids and it sounds like I like kids more than you do, so that's exactly the reason why I posted my thoughts here. It wasn't meant to offend people, but I just had to say something to someone about it and I thought this would be a good place to do so. This turned into a big argument and that was NOT my intention, believe it or not. I was okay if it turned into a friendly debate, but people got way too angry with what I said...even if they agreed with me.

 

I'm sure your intentions were good. It's just that...I think this is one of those arguments that will always make people mad. A lot of parents get riled up, people like me (who don't want kids) get riled up...it just gets ugly. I find it's easier just to shrug and say "Meh. It's not for me. whatever works for you. Moving on." It's one of those matters where everything just degenerates into pure emotion and it's just not productive.

 

I admire your effort and try and make sense of it, but it doesn't seem to have worked. It's not your fault though.

 

And yes, it's not hard for someone to like children more than I do. Voldemort could easily accomplish that.

 

Maybe I'm a disgusting, horrid being for disliking kids so much (I could even use the word "hate", but I wish no harm upon them, I just don't want them around me) and people have tried to paint me as awful for not liking something so universally "pleasing". Hmm. Just they just aren't my thing.