I think it's selfish to have kids..

[Trying1]

Why do we spay and neuter our cats and dogs, etc? We want to save the animals that are already in the shelters. No need to bring more of those animals into this world when we have plenty that need homes in shelters.

[QuirkyCute]

I posed several questions to you in a particularly long post I made a while back. I don't want to go back to it and type it here, but I really would like to know what you think about some of the things I said.

 

Some people are getting defensive because they are misunderstanding the meaning of the word "selfish". Being selfish is acting in one's own best interest, period. Like you and others have said, it can be both good and bad. We do it everyday.

 

Others are getting defensive because, while you say that it isn't bad to have children rather than adopt (just selfish), you really do mean that it's bad. You have said it more than once. Perhaps you don't realize you're doing it, but you are, and that's why others are attempting to point out situations where that isn't the case and are getting defensive. You don't seem to buy it, but then say you don't think it's bad. THAT'S what is frustrating people. If you think there is something "kinda bad" about having kids, say so. At least, then people will KNOW what you're trying to say.

 

You, again, are saying that people don't want you to reply, and that you will reply because you want people to understand you. Everyone wants you to reply, but, just like you want people to understand you, they want you to understand them too. The understanding goes both ways, and you are only understanding YOU. By the way, the assertion that you can't get all your thoughts out won't hold water here. If others can think and plan their responses, you can too.

[QuirkyCute]

Also, and another poster already addressed this, if having children is selfish, but it makes people happy to do so, and some people have the tools to give this child a wonderful childhood (and it's as certain as possible that this child will have a wonderful childhood), should they not make themselves happy by having them? When it comes to having children, should we all feel bad about ourselves for doing what makes us happy as opposed to adopting children? Angelina Jolie adopted three children (I think), and now she and Brad Pitt have three children together. Should they have only adopted? Are they only selfish for having their own children?

 

I'm not attacking you here, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

 

Here's that post I was referring to.

[FarthestEdge]

Just because YOU present your opinion as absolute fact, it doesn't make it so...I'm not biting.

[Batya33]

I think what you wrote is so typical, it's cliche - the same old argument of "since bringing a child into an overpopulated world is selfish, why do it?" I wrote way way in the beginning of this thread that I agreed that almost all decisions to have a biological child are selfish to a certain extent so your comment that we didn't understand your point is not true and I wasn't the only one to post a complete understanding of your point. Understanding and agreeing with your conclusion "since it's selfish don't do it" are two different things.

 

In many cases deciding not to have a child would be selfish - for example, if a woman gets pregnant by accident and her husband wants the child and the wife is not sure, there would be an element of selfishness in having an abortion. Or, if a surrogate decides not to go through with a pregnancy for a couple who desperately wants a baby because she decides she's no longer in the mood to be pregnant, that would have an element of selfishness too.

 

You're also assuming that the people who choose not to have children are going to put their energies into helping the world. Why assume that? Isn't it just as likely that a person who decides not to have a child might decline so he can spend his money on gadgets, fancy cars, a beautiful house? Nothing wrong with spending money on materialistic items but that doesn't further the goal of "redistribute the time/money to the people who do exist". Sure, if a person decides not to have a child because raising a child would interfere with their career promoting world peace, helping the homeless, trying to cure cancer, then sure, there is an element of selflessness in the decision not to have a child. But your broad brush reasoning doesn't hold water, in my opinion.

[Trying1]

Also, and another poster already addressed this, if having children is selfish, but it makes people happy to do so, and some people have the tools to give this child a wonderful childhood (and it's as certain as possible that this child will have a wonderful childhood), should they not make themselves happy by having them? When it comes to having children, should we all feel bad about ourselves for doing what makes us happy as opposed to adopting children? Angelina Jolie adopted three children (I think), and now she and Brad Pitt have three children together. Should they have only adopted? Are they only selfish for having their own children?

 

 

I'm not really sure about this, honestly. I've said that there is no guarantee that a child will be happy even if you DO have all the resources. It's just not %100, just as nothing else is(I understand that). I also understand that people want to have kids because they are confident that they can give them the best in life, so by them choosing to have kids under that belief, I can see why they would think that's a good idea. They have good intentions, so I don't think people should feel bad about themselves for having kids. People do it. It is natural and I can't blame anyone for it. It's what animals do, so again, no, I don't think anyone should feel bad about it(as long as they are capable and willing to do the work that comes with it, obviously). You ask me if I think people(who are capable) should have kids if it's going to make them happy. I don't think so, but at the same time I'm not going around faulting everyone or trying to convince them they shouldn't have kids. That's really not even a thought that usually crosses my mind when I see people with kids. I understand why people have kids based on their own beliefs, but the way I see it, I find it hard to understand why people have kids. Because, obviously, the way I see it is a lot more pessimistic. I just see it as: Why would you bring a child into this world knowing all the horrible things that happen and about all the other kids who are already here who don't have families of their own? And yes, there are happy things that happen when you're alive, but you only experience those things if you're alive and if you're not alive then you don't know any better...because you don't exist. Brad and Angelina did better than a lot of people, but I still think that having their own children is selfish because they're thinking about what they want, not what the children want. That's why THAT is selfish, but I also think they are very unselfish for adopting a bunch of kids and going out of their way to help people, but I don't think that takes away from the selfishness that comes with having their own kids.

[QuirkyCute]

Yes! I totally agree, and others who have visited this thread (myself included) have been saying this from the beginning. OP seems to read these types of responses and skip right over them (but then feel she is not being understood).

 

OP, I'm curious as to what you think about this post.

[Trying1]

First off, all I'm saying about not being able to get all my thoughts out here, is that I think it would be easier to convey what I mean if I could actually talk to you in person.

 

 

Okay, I do think it's bad to have kids right now. Nobody NEEDS to have kids. It's all about what the PARENTS WANT. "I want kids!" WHY?? How is it benefiting anyone, but yourself? This world is full of problems, yet people keep popping out kids no matter what. Is it not possible to be happy without children of your own or just children at all?? That said, I don't think parents are bad for having the children. It IS a natural thing and people(usually)have good intentions when they're going to have the kids, but they're still just thinking about it blindly. Stop for a second and think about it. Is it really in everyone's(including the kid) best interest to have a kid? No, not really, but you still want that kid, so you'll ignore all that and have it anyway. But people don't usually think about that before they decide to have the kid, so no I don't think they're bad people for it...maybe a little bit ignorant, but not bad. There are plenty of other situations where this same kind of thought process can occur and people will be just as ignorant, but that's not what we're talking about, so spare me the examples and comparisons.

 

I understand what people are saying, but based on what some of them are saying, it tells me they don't understand what I'm saying. So I just try to clarify what I'm saying and what I mean.

[QuirkyCute]

Mkay. So, people shouldn't have kids if it will make them happy. At least, not to you. If your argument is that they are just bringing a child into the world who will take up more resources, would the people who choose not to have kids be better to spend their time and resources making THEMSELVES happy? If I choose not to have kids, but then I go out and buy an expensive SUV that I ALONE will drive, buy a huge house that I ALONE will live in, spend loads of cash eating at fancy restaurants every night BY MYSELF, that's taking up resources that could be used on someone who is already here, too. Oh, but I'm not as selfish as those people who are making the bad choice to have kids. No, because I'm not bringing another life into the world to use up all our resources. I'm just using them up.

 

If you live in America, you know that each of us (usually) has a HUGE carbon footprint. INDIVIDUALS use a selfish amount of the world's resources. Europeans and people from other countries don't really have that problem. In fact, many of the families in other parts of the world do not use as many resources as families in the States. According to you, it would be better if we could use our resources in a better way (by using them on people who are already here), and having children is the worst way. Really, that isn't true. However, if not having kids means I'm not selfish, I guess, since I'm not selfish, I can use my resources on whatever I want and STILL not be selfish as long as I don't have a kid.

[Trying1]

I know that NOT having children in certain situations could be selfish when it comes to the examples that you gave. All I'm saying is that when someone decides to have kid and go through with it, it is selfish, because they're doing it for themselves. I also know that people won't always decide to help other people out if they don't have kids. That can also be selfish. The only difference, to me, is the fact that in one example(have a child) you're bringing someone onto this earth that otherwise didn't exist and now has the possibility to live a horrible life(not always the case, obviously) and in the other example, you're just continuing your life and enjoying it yourself. You're not helping others, but you're also not bringing someone here who is going to need more resources and now has a responsibility it otherwise had no idea about(because they didn't exist).

[QuirkyCute]

The reason you don't think people are understanding what you are saying is because YOU THINK YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. You don't. You have NO CLUE what is in ANYBODY'S best interest, you have NO CLUE what this world needs (if you did, you'd get OFF THE COMPUTER AND DO SOMETHING), you have NO CLUE the impact having a kid has on the world's resources, and you have NO CLUE WHY ANYBODY HAS KIDS. You paint people with a broad brush, then call yourself misunderstood when people have a problem with it.

 

Your argument that "people don't NEED to have kids" won't hold water here, because of what you're using to back up that claim. People don't NEED to live in fancy houses (which take up resources), people don't NEED to buy fancy cars, heck, people don't NEED ANYTHING EXCEPT FOOD, WATER, AND SHELTER. That's it. Considering what people do with their resources in this world, having kids is one of the LEAST HARMFUL things one could do IN THE GRAND SCHEME of things. People do PLENTY of damage ALL BY THEMSELVES.

 

You contradicted yourself. You think it's bad to have kids, but you don't think parent's are bad for having them? If I said, "I think it's bad to kick dogs, but I don't think people are bad for kicking them", would that make any sense to you?

 

Could I be happy without at least a Bachelor's degree? Could I be happy without going to medical school? Could I be happy just sitting at home, spending all my time caring what other people think, and basing my own happiness out of that? No. Not in this world. I will not choose to spend my life doing what others think is best, and NEITHER WILL YOU.

[Trying1]

I KNOW that other things are selfish and that we don't NEED a lot of the stuff we have, but having kids USUALLY isn't something anyone thinks about in those terms. THAT'S WHY I SAID IT! You're right, I don't know what impact having kids has on the earth's resources, BUT having kids is something that we do for ourselves and impacts a new living thing. "I'm gonna have kids because it makes ME happy, even though this kid could have a horrible life no matter what I do". And I KNOW the kid COULD BE happy, too, but you DON'T KNOW. That's where the gamble comes in and you're gambling with someone else's life, just to make you happy. When you buy a new house or car for yourself instead of helping someone else, that is selfish, but at least you didn't single-handedly create the other people's problems. You DO create that child and then they're just another person who has to deal with all of life's problems. Happiness is there too, but it's all irrelevant unless you exist.

[Trying1]

I know that NOT having children in certain situations could be selfish when it comes to the examples that you gave. All I'm saying is that when someone decides to have kid and go through with it, it is selfish, because they're doing it for themselves. I also know that people won't always decide to help other people out if they don't have kids. That can also be selfish. The only difference, to me, is the fact that in one example(have a child) you're bringing someone onto this earth that otherwise didn't exist and now has the possibility to live a horrible life(not always the case, obviously) and in the other example, you're just continuing your life and enjoying it yourself. You're not helping others, but you're also not bringing someone here who is going to need more resources and now has a responsibility it otherwise had no idea about(because they didn't exist).

[Batya33]

I for one am very glad that Maya Angelou's mom was selfish enough to have Maya, that my mother in law was selfish enough to have my husband, etc etc - many people love having responsibilities, being needed, giving and receiving love - I am so thankful my parents sacrificed so much to have me.

 

If we make decisions based on possibilities of something bad happening, we'd never make any choices. Of course the choice to bring another human being into the world is an awesome one, many would say, unequaled, but many other choices are similar in their serious nature - deciding to end a life, for example (should people then abstain from having sex or get their tubes tied so that they don't risk creating a life?).

 

Oh and I don't agree that it is entirely selfish to have kids - part of it is selfishness (but not always, think of surrogate mothers for example) but much of it is not. It can't be just "for yourself" because most children when they grow up are on their own (which is a good thing!) and of course parents can't guarantee that their children will love them and shouldn't have kids on that basis.

[QuirkyCute]

OP, EVERYTHING in life is a gamble. I won't get a puppy because it may bite me, I won't drive today because I might lose my life, and the list goes on and on. You're saying that all those gambles are fine because they only involve me, and having a child is a whole other thing. It's not. YOU aren't taking a gamble with a life that you bring into the world. If the kid doesn't have a happy life, but you were an excellent parent, that kid is taking a gamble with his or her OWN life.

 

But, then you'll say, the kid wouldn't have to take a gamble if he/she were never born. Correct. So? Lots of things would never happen if kids weren't born. But, sorry, we have life on this planet, people enjoy life and continuing it, people enjoy raising kids, there ARE benefits (I'm very happy to be alive, and I will be a doctor and a researcher, so there's an excellent possibility that my efforts will help at least SOME people). People will have kids. If you don't like it, don't have kids. This isn't going anywhere, and I feel my time has been royally wasted. Like FarthestEdge, I'm not biting anymore.

[Trying1]

You're right, that IS what I'd say. I understand we have life on this planet and people will continue to have kids...obviously. Yeah sure, there are benefits, but I highly doubt that's what people are thinking when they decide to have kids. They're thinking, "I want to have kids, me me me" selfish, selfish, selfish. You have kids for yourself. PERIOD. SELFISH. That's all. Simple. Now a lot of the other things you say are true, but I don't think it takes away from it being selfish in that way.

 

I need to address this from your other post because I meant to do it before: You contradicted yourself. You think it's bad to have kids, but you don't think parent's are bad for having them? If I said, "I think it's bad to kick dogs, but I don't think people are bad for kicking them", would that make any sense to you? If someone kicks a dog with good intentions(trying to teach it) or they don't realize that it hurts them, then no, I don't think they're a bad person. I don't agree with them kicking it, but I don't think it makes them a bad person. If they kick the dog with BAD intentions, then yes, they're probably not a very good person. Same goes with deciding to have kids. Good intentions and bad intentions. I'd say most people don't have bad intentions when they decide to have kids.

[Trying1]

Oh, and the whole "kid is taking a gamble with his or her OWN life." thing...the kid had no choice to be here. They were FORCED to be here and live and now they have try to make the best of life or be miserable or kill themselves. Most won't choose suicide(for obvious reasons), so now they have to live on this earth because two people decided to have them for their own happiness.

[Trying1]

Obviously there are people in this world that we are thankful to have, but if they never existed, we wouldn't know the difference. There are probably many, many babies that were never born or kids who died, that could've grown up to be something special, but we don't know any different because they don't exist. They don't know any different, because they are dead. And I don't know what people should. I don't really care that much, to be honest. I'm not trying to convince people to stop having kids, but I'm still saying that deciding to bring a child onto this earth is usually selfish. Hey, I wanted my brother and sister-in-law to have another kid, so I that I could have new niece or nephew, but I understand that's selfish of me. We don't need more kids on this earth right now, but I still wanted that baby to play with and all that. I can still acknowledge it's pretty selfish. I don't think I'm a bad person, just like I don't you'd be a bad person if you wanted to have kids of your own, but I still think deciding to have kids(not adoption)is selfish.

 

Surrogates...I'd say the idea to bring the child onto this planet is selfish. The act of the surrogate carrying the baby for someone else to make them happy and all that, isn't selfish, obviously. They're doing it for someone else. The parents are the ones who want to create a new person for themselves. That's what I believe is the selfish aspect.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by it not being "just for yourself". I think when the people decide to have a baby they are doing for themselves. I don't think they're really thinking about how much this baby is going to help or contribute to anyone else.

[sidehop]

What made you feel this way about parents being selfish or any parents wanting children in general?

[The Archer]

Yes I guess you could argue that having children is always selfish but selfishness is a sliding scale. A person can be slightly selfish and at the other end of the scale, very selfish.

 

I think there are two main factors to consider here.

 

1) How many children someone has.

2) How well they can provide for their children (obviously not just about money!)

 

I don’t think anyone has the right to have more than two children. This would increase the worlds population and that is the last thing that we need. Over population is probably the single biggest problem the world faces today.

The world can only just sustain a middle class America. Can you imagine 90% of China being middle class? The world just couldn’t cope with that. Not enough resources.

 

If the world had a low enough population then it would be possible for everyone to live above that crucial “breadline”. At present I don’t believe that’s possible due to the worlds overpopulation.

 

If someone can provide for their children well and their not having to many children then I wouldn’t really call this selfish. That would be like call a volunteer selfish because they are being it for personal satisfaction. Really stretching the term “selfish”.

[Batya33]

"Hey, I wanted my brother and sister-in-law to have another kid, so I that I could have new niece or nephew, but I understand that's selfish of me. We don't need more kids on this earth right now, but I still wanted that baby to play with and all that. I can still acknowledge it's pretty selfish. I don't think I'm a bad person, just like I don't you'd be a bad person if you wanted to have kids of your own, but I still think deciding to have kids(not adoption)is selfish."

 

Having a child or wanting someone else to have a child so you can have a baby to play with is probably not a good reason to have a child, whether you call it "selfish" or "clueless" or whatever. But that's just one of many reasons to have a child so I'm not sure how you can generalize from that.

 

"Surrogates...I'd say the idea to bring the child onto this planet is selfish. The act of the surrogate carrying the baby for someone else to make them happy and all that, isn't selfish, obviously. They're doing it for someone else. The parents are the ones who want to create a new person for themselves. That's what I believe is the selfish aspect. "

 

The "for themselves" is the flaw here - of course by definition it's partly "for themselves" but people have children for all sorts of other reasons.

 

"I'm not sure what you mean by it not being "just for yourself". I think when the people decide to have a baby they are doing for themselves. I don't think they're really thinking about how much this baby is going to help or contribute to anyone else. "

 

But that's just your opinion - -do you have solid statistics/authority to back up what you're saying or is it just anecdotal and, of course, likely viewed through your negative attitudes about why people have children?

 

So, would it be less selfish of a woman who found herself pregnant and did not want to be pregnant to terminate the pregnancy even if the father wanted the child or even if there were people who wanted to adopt the child, because by terminating she would be doing the "selfless" thing of not bringing a life into this world?

 

Wouldn't it be selfish of her to deprive others of the chance to care for the child and to hurt those who believe that life begins at conception? Isn't "selfishness" relative in that example and a matter of degree? You can go on and on about how "selfish" it is but of course that's just your opinion - as you must agree, many actions we do and don't do are out of self-interest or selfishness - you're just of the opinion that it's "too selfish" to increase the world's population - the term selfish doesn't have the absolute meaning you attribute to it.

[Trying1]

What made you feel this way about parents being selfish or any parents wanting children in general?

 

I started thinking about it recently because my friend had a baby and then another baby, but she and her husband don't really have the money for it, so I thought, that's pretty selfish of them, but then I started thinking about how every parent is selfish in a way when they decide to have a baby because they're usually doing it for themselves, whether or not they know the child will be happy or not. I don't think parents are selfish in the way that I think after the kid is born they're thinking only about themselves. Obviously they're thinking what would be best for their kid after they're born and all and that's not selfish, so I wouldn't just say "parents are selfish" because I know that's not usually true.

 

Yes I guess you could argue that having children is always selfish but selfishness is a sliding scale. A person can be slightly selfish and at the other end of the scale, very selfish.

 

I think there are two main factors to consider here.

 

1) How many children someone has.

2) How well they can provide for their children (obviously not just about money!)

 

I don’t think anyone has the right to have more than two children. This would increase the worlds population and that is the last thing that we need. Over population is probably the single biggest problem the world faces today.

The world can only just sustain a middle class America. Can you imagine 90% of China being middle class? The world just couldn’t cope with that. Not enough resources.

 

If the world had a low enough population then it would be possible for everyone to live above that crucial “breadline”. At present I don’t believe that’s possible due to the worlds overpopulation.

 

If someone can provide for their children well and their not having to many children then I wouldn’t really call this selfish. That would be like call a volunteer selfish because they are being it for personal satisfaction. Really stretching the term “selfish”.

 

 

Yeah, what you say makes sense and I pretty much agree, except I still think if someone can provide for their children they're selfish when they decide to have them because they're bringing that child onto this earth for themselves. But yeah, I don't think they're COMPLETELY selfish either. I know people aren't usually that low-down to have a kid just to have a kid and that's it. The volunteer thing is different to me, because yeah, it's selfish if you're doing it for yourself in a way, but with having kids you're creating a new life that really never had any choice in it and could end up being miserable...or not, but when you decide to have that kid you're doing it because YOU want the kid, despite what the kid might feel later on. That's the difference I see between the selfishness with having a kid and other selfish things that may be on the lighter side of the selfish scale.

 

 

Batya-

I know that most people don't have kids just to play with them. I was just using that as a quick example.

 

I know I don't have any facts or statistics on why people decide to have kids to back up what I'm saying, so then what reasons DO most people decide to have children??? I assume it's for themselves(in most cases) and if not it's still selfish in a way to bring a child onto this earth with all the kids who need to be adopted and also that the child has no choice in the matter(obviously), so if they're alive, they have no choice but to try to live. You can't say you're having a baby FOR the baby, so who is it for? and why?

 

So, would it be less selfish of a woman who found herself pregnant and did not want to be pregnant to terminate the pregnancy even if the father wanted the child or even if there were people who wanted to adopt the child, because by terminating she would be doing the "selfless" thing of not bringing a life into this world?

 

It would be selfish of the woman to do that to the father, and it would be selfish of the father to want to have the child be born.

 

Wouldn't it be selfish of her to deprive others of the chance to care for the child and to hurt those who believe that life begins at conception? Isn't "selfishness" relative in that example and a matter of degree? You can go on and on about how "selfish" it is but of course that's just your opinion - as you must agree, many actions we do and don't do are out of self-interest or selfishness - you're just of the opinion that it's "too selfish" to increase the world's population - the term selfish doesn't have the absolute meaning you attribute to it.

 

 

I agree that many other things are selfish and more selfish than having children. I posted this thread because people don't think about deciding to have children as something that is selfish and I do, so I wanted to see what other people would say on the matter. It's just a thought that's out of the norm.

[Batya33]

Oh, it's been argued countless times -nothing new under the sun. I disagree with you that overpopulation means that an individual person should forego having children or that to have children is selfish because they "could" adopt. Adoption is great in so many ways and it's also great to have your own biological children if you're able to and want to. I had a child for myself, for my husband, for my family and yes, also for the world because I believed that we could raise a human being who would be an asset to the world. Could I be wrong? Of course - but that is true of all major decisions. I also don't believe I need to forego what is a natural, innate desire to have children because there is an overpopulation of people in the world. Just like I don't need to forego getting more money than I need for bare survival just because there are starving people.

 

I believe in balance and that is why I've written that you need to balance the selfishness with the other factors just like you should balance what material things you need with what you can contribute to charity.

[Trying1]

People having children while there are plenty of other children who need to be adopted IS selfish, but whatever..not a huge deal to me(although it might seem like it is based on this whole thread). It's selfish. It just is. People would rather have their own kids. Why? I think it's because they want that unequivocal joy that everyone talks about when they give birth to their own flesh and blood. That's fine with me, but it's still selfish. It's for their own happiness and pleasure. If they were interested in trying to raise a great human being and getting and sharing love with someone, they could just as likely adopt a child and get the same things in that sense. I'm not here to try and convince people not to have kids, but I do think it's selfish. So far all you and most other people on this thread have done is list reasons why other things are just as, or more selfish, or why it's good that people are "selfish" for having kids, or that it's okay or you don't care that it's selfish to have kids, and I understand all of this, but that was never really what this was about. It IS selfish, but people have good intentions(usually) when they decide to have a baby, so it's not like people that have children are bad, they just don't acknowledge the selfish aspect of it.

[summerpeach]

People having children while there are plenty of other children who need to be adopted IS selfish, but whatever...

 

I am in total agreement with this.

It's like the person who BUYS at kitten from a pet store when there are a trillion strays up for adoption.

 

Humans are a selfish species, but not just about "I want my own flesh and blood" but about everything else.

 

It's all about balance though. We need the species to survive so like I said, some humans were bred to give life and some were not.

 

It's neither right or wrong, it just is!