I think it's selfish to have kids..

[QuirkyCute]

I don't understand your intent, then. You wanted people's opinions. You got them. Many posters feel that having children is selfish. Are you going to argue with everyone who points out a different perspective, then? That isn't wanting people's opinions. That's wanting to prove other people who do not share your opinions wrong.

 

Having children is a selfish act in that is it a PERSONAL choice. Some people are not fit to be parents. That does not mean that the vast majority of people are not thinking about what they are doing when they have kids. It isn't ONLY selfish, either. It is also selfless. See it however you want, but ask any parent who just stayed awake until 4 am with their sick and vomiting 5 year old if they are acting selfishly with their child that they brought into the world, and they'll disagree. In that instance, they ARE doing it for the kid.

 

About adoption, while I am not against adopting a child, because I possess the reproductive organs and the means to have a child from my loins, that is precisely what I want to do. Will I adopt? Perhaps. But, I will do it because I want to, just like I selfishly decided to have a child. By the way, while there certainly are children in this world that need a loving and caring family, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE should adopt instead of having kids, or that adoption is the only and best option if someone wants a kid.

 

About selfishness in general: Ever heard of Ayn Rand? There are different types of selfishness, not all of them bad. Having a child when you don't want one, and do not have the means to support one, is a terrible selfishness. Not everyone who has kids operates from that standpoint. Can I guarantee that my child won't encounter problems? Of course not. My parents could never and would never try to protect me from said issues, either. That, to me, is what life is about. There are hardships in the world, yes. I have endured sad things, and I have friends who have endured things that I probably will never have to even WORRY about. We all have turned out better than good, in my honest opinion. I see life as an opportunity to learn who you truly are in a world of dysfunction, and I LOVE to learn about myself. I love gaining wisdom about different areas of thought that I never considered before. I love life. Because I love life, I want to give life, with all of its difficulties and hardships.

 

Perhaps that is what the selfish to bring a child into the world/not selfish debate boils down to.

[savignon]

I don't have to say they're selfish because they had kids; I could say they're selfish for plenty of other reasons

 

Or you could not label people, assume what they think about, and call them names. You could just state your own opinion and values, "I choose not to have kids because I believe the world is overpopulated as is".

Saying "most people agree that it's a selfish act" implies that the other people are "wrong" rather than simply having different values and opinons.

Everyone judges. You have to.

You don't "have to" judge anyone. You choose to.

[Trying1]

Yeah, I wanted to hear other people's opinions, but I also wanted to share why I don't agree. haha. I think that a lot of the people who reply to my thread wanted me to respond, but hey, maybe not. I responded anyway. Oh well.

 

And, I don't know if you read all of the comments on this thread, because if you did, I don't think you would've said some of things you did. You would've seen what I had said about selfishness and my other views and clarifications on the matter. I don't know about saying that it's not completely selfish either. Before you have the child, it's not there for you to be selfish. It's like, "oh I had you and now I'm being soo selfless by taking care of you." Why thank you, mom! I'm glad you didn't throw me in a dumpster. I'm glad you took responsibility and did what you're supposed to do when you CHOSE to give birth to me. Yes, what parents do is great, but if they never CHOSE to have the kid in the first place, they wouldn't have to be so selfless. They are creating that responsibility that otherwise would not need to be taken care of.

 

I don't think parents are bad people, but I don't think anyone can say that choosing to have a child is not selfish. It just is. They do it for themselves, NOT the kid. The kid didn't exist. It's not like they're sitting there waiting for someone to save them. It's not like I see a pregnant person or parent and think "oh my god, they are sooo selfish, why would they do that?" I just had a thought one day about how when people have kids they are doing it for themselves and how that's pretty selfish, because a lot of times, people aren't ready for it, yet they do it anyway, for their own happiness.

 

I have heard of Ayn Rand. I KNOW not all types of selfishness is bad. I've already said that in an earlier post, but you didn't read those or you missed it or something. It's easy for us to say we're so happy that our parents had us, etc, but if we were never born it would make no difference to us.

[Trying1]

I don't have to say they're selfish because they had kids; I could say they're selfish for plenty of other reasons

 

Or you could not label people, assume what they think about, and call them names. You could just state your own opinion and values, "I choose not to have kids because I believe the world is overpopulated as is".

Saying "most people agree that it's a selfish act" implies that the other people are "wrong" rather than simply having different values and opinons.

Everyone judges. You have to.

You don't "have to" judge anyone. You choose to.

 

 

People judge. It is what it is. Whether or not you're gonna let that stop you from actually getting to know someone and realizing your judgments were wrong(or not) is what we can choose to do. And words are words. We have words to describe and explain things and communicate. That's what they're there for. My opinion is my opinion. I think having kids is selfish and I almost say it now as indisputable, because people have kids for THEMSELVES...or at least not for the kid. You're thinking about yourself when you decide to get pregnant. Okay, maybe I should just leave it at that: People don't have kids for the kids(the kids don't exist), and USUALLY they're thinking about themselves when they decide. But, that's not to say that they're not also thinking about how to make the kid happy, too. But you could just as easily decide not to have a kid and then there would be no struggle to make that child happy. You could adopt a kid who needs something because they already exist and they have no option, because someone already brought them here.

[QuirkyCute]

I have been reading the thread. Maybe YOU didn't notice that I commented several times before. I always read before I offer any contribution, thank you very much, and what I contribute may not always have to do with what the OP or other posters have added.

 

I AGREE with you that having a child is selfish. Maybe it was my post that you didn't read. I also get that you're saying that if we weren't born that it would make no difference. I understand all of what you are saying, I was simply offering my opinion, which is what you asked for. Don't get defensive because people are asking for precisely what you hope to get from this discussion.

 

When I spoke of selflessness, I wasn't saying, "Oh! Poor me! I had a child, and look! I have to care for that child!" What I am saying is the act of putting a child before yourself, even for all the selfishness of having the kid in the first place, is selfless. You don't agree with having kids, so you won't see it the way that others do.

 

Having kids is not bad, bringing kids into the world isn't bad (regardless of the world being overpopulated), nothing is wrong with anyone making the choice to have them if they are equipped to make that choice.

 

To be honest, you aren't making many clarifications in this thread about selfishness. You say, "Yeah, having kids isn't the MOST selfish thing in the world, but it's still pretty selfish." That isn't a clarification. That's elaboration. Also, you come off a tad disrespectful and defensive when others disagree, and I don't understand that. Nobody said that they didn't want you to respond to your own thread. I am not out to convince you that having kids isn't selfish (again, we AGREE). However, I don't agree that "most people" have no idea what they're getting into, and that "most people" shouldn't be having them. Not everyone is equipped to parent, but that doesn't mean that most people would make terrible parents. If that has been your experience of life and the world, I am sorry. Not everyone shares your experiences, or your perspectives.

[QuirkyCute]

But you could just as easily decide not to have a kid and then there would be no struggle to make that child happy. You could adopt a kid who needs something because they already exist and they have no option, because someone already brought them here.

 

If you adopt, you still face the same issues. There is no guarantee that they'll have a good life just because they've been adopted, and there very well could be a struggle to make the kid happy. In fact, there could be more issues with an adopted child by virtue of the fact that they are adopted.

[QuirkyCute]

Another thing, I think we're making the same points, but for different reasons. You're saying that having children is selfish because it only considers the desires of the parents-to-be, and not what life might be like for the child they bring into the world. That those parents could have the best of intentions, and the child's life STILL may not turn out the way they had hoped. So, now, we have another unhappy person in an already overpopulated world, and that unhappy person is only here because his or her parents just had to have them. If that person had never been born, he or she wouldn't be unhappy, and there wouldn't be any pain or sadness to be experienced (see, I WAS reading the ENTIRE thread). My point is that the decision to have children is selfish based only on the definition of selfishness.

 

Would it be nice if we could guarantee that our children, our own or adopted, will lead wonderful lives with no pain? Absolutely! Would it be nicer if there was no pain in the world at all (which is caused by more selfish people)? Yes! Would it be nice if we could just not have any more children and adopt the kids that need homes? Of course, and, for that reason, I may choose to adopt later in life. So, while all that would be nice, and while I would love it if my child could live in a world where they'll never have to experience severe hardships, is it ultimately my fault that my kid may experience hardships for being so selfish as to bring them into the world in the first place, or is that a product of the world that, no matter how much I try to make it different, is a fact of life?

 

So, yes, I get it. No matter how well I prepare for my child, no matter what I try to do for my child, the choice to have him or her is still a choice that I am making for myself (and my future husband). That choice may lead to my child having an unsavory life. This is where I see it differently.....

 

You can bring a child into the world knowing full and well what kind of place it is, and try your very hardest to give that child the tools to make things work in this world. You show your child the difference between good and bad, you explain the gray areas between those two notions, you show them what it means to "pull yourself up by the bootstraps", you educate them in philosophical works, and allow them to explore the world and put these things together to make choices. If that child gets involved in an unfortunate situation, and they DON'T use the tools that they have to get out of it, is it the parent's fault for bringing the child into the world at this point, or is it the child's responsibility to take lemons and make lemonade? Yes, if the child was never born, it there wouldn't be a situation that required said making of lemonade However, if people have children, is the way the latter situation turns out the fault of the selfish parents? (Just wanted to add, I am aware that there are situations that don't even come close to what I have listed above. I am intentionally discussing what I consider to be a best-case scenario.)

 

Also, and another poster already addressed this, if having children is selfish, but it makes people happy to do so, and some people have the tools to give this child a wonderful childhood (and it's as certain as possible that this child will have a wonderful childhood), should they not make themselves happy by having them? When it comes to having children, should we all feel bad about ourselves for doing what makes us happy as opposed to adopting children? Angelina Jolie adopted three children (I think), and now she and Brad Pitt have three children together. Should they have only adopted? Are they only selfish for having their own children?

 

I'm not attacking you here, I'm just interested in your thoughts.

[waveseer]

I love this topic! Because your parents were selfish enough to have you, you can be here to say so!

[Sparkly Eyes]

If you adopt, you still face the same issues. There is no guarantee that they'll have a good life just because they've been adopted, and there very well could be a struggle to make the kid happy. In fact, there could be more issues with an adopted child by virtue of the fact that they are adopted.

 

So basically you are saying that because adopting is harder than having children of your own, you decide to have children of your own than helping an orphan. That means you are putting your well being first than some child, so it is again somewhat selfish.

 

The truth is, human beings are selfish. Wanting to have biological children is like an instinct for most people and when it comes to our natural needs, we are all selfish.

[QuirkyCute]

So basically you are saying that because adopting is harder than having children of your own, you decide to have children of your own than helping an orphan. That means you are putting your well being first than some child, so it is again somewhat selfish.

 

The truth is, human beings are selfish. Wanting to have biological children is like an instinct for most people and when it comes to our natural needs, we are all selfish.

 

I never said that. Didn't even imply it. Actually, I never said that adopting children is harder than having children of your own, I said it has the potential to be. I have said, twice now, that I personally consider adoption an option.

 

OP was saying that people who choose to have children are taking a gamble by bringing a child into the world, because they don't know how that child's life will turn out. I was simply pointing out that the same is true for adopting children. It is also a gamble, and just because they are already here doesn't mean that their life will be peaches and potpourii, or that their life with a family will be better than a life brought into the world by a family. Sorry if that wasn't clear. On your second paragraph, we totally agree.

[Batya33]

"By saying that planning to have kids is a self act I'm not saying that NOTHING ELSE is selfish or that I'm not selfish. I'm just pointing out the fact that I think planning to have kids is selfish and unlike a lot of things people do that are selfish, this one involves someone else's life that you are gambling in order to make yourself happy and I think that's what gets me. I'm glad your kid is happy to be alive, but first, you could not guarantee their happiness when you decided to give birth to them, so you got lucky and so did they. If they weren't happy and were suffering, then what would you say? Second, if they were never born at all they wouldn't know the difference. Now that they are here I can see why them being here is the best choice. "

 

Because there are no guarantees in life and I think it's natural to want to reproduce - I have no apologies for my desire to be a mother and I've had that desire since I was a little girl. I had a child in part to make myself and my husband happy but mostly to act in the best interests of a child - I knew I was in a place in my life where I could give a child an emotionally and financially stable family life -- no guarantees, but in balancing and evaluating the risks, I felt comfortable with what I could give, with the place I was in. I see life as a blessing that you can give another person (whether creating that life or enhancing the life of someone who is already here). I don't consider it getting lucky - part of it is luck and part of it is the hard work, time, effort, love, caring, money, you put into raising a child. I was not taking a gamble - that would have been true if I had a child in an unstable situation but I didn't. It's all how you define "happiness" "life" and "gambling".

 

I am sorry you feel the way you do but I am fully supportive of someone else's decision not to have kids - but to do this broad-sweeping "all people who plan to have kids are selfish" is a bit extreme. No, very extreme.

[prettymommy]

The biggest problem I have with some of the premise's of this whole thread, the primary one being that if the child grows up to be unhappy, it is the parent's fault b/c in some they are assumed to be unprepared to raise a happy child, and hence, were selfish when it came to the decision to have a child.

 

Wrong. It is every person's personal responsability to make themselves happy- children included. A parent can aid in teaching the child how to be happy, can contribute to a childs happiness/unhappiness, but at some level, a person- man, woman, or child- is responsible for their own happiness- regardless of circumstances.

 

Personally, I find this premise to be a cop-out excuse for not taking ownership of one's own happiness. "Oh- I had a horrible childhood and am unhappy now; it's all my parent's fault b/c they were selfish in deciding to have me and raise me."

 

I can see the argument that it may be an inherently selfish decision to consciously decide to have a child, given you make a decision based on countless unknowns (none of us know how the future will turn out), but the act of being a parent, a good parent or even a semi-decent one, is inherently self-LESS. There are tons of people out there that are unhappy. Is it all their parents fault just b/c they made the inherently selfish decision to have them? No. Not in the least. Happiness is your own personal choice in life.

[Trying1]

First, I don't think people should or feel like they have to apologize for wanting or being a parent. It's just something we do. I realize one day I might wake up and want kids and even want kids that are my own(not adopted), because I'll want them to have my traits, etc. I still, as of now, think it'll be selfish of me to do so. I think this way because I COULD go out and adopt a kid who has already been born and given life and try to give them a great life, but instead I decide that because I want my OWN kid, I will just ignore the kids who are here and NEED help so that I can bring someone extra in who otherwise wouldn't need any help at all, because they don't exist. Giving the gift of life doesn't really make sense to be in terms of getting pregnant because you're really just creating another life. I don't believe there are a bunch of babies waiting around for someone to give them the gift of life.

 

I still think that the majority of people who decide to have kids are doing for themselves, therefore I think it's selfish, but like I've said before: I don't think they're bad people, and I don't think they're really thinking "me me me me", because if they decided to have a kid, then I believe they know the responsibilities that come along with it, so they know it's going to be hard and they're going to have to give a lot of themselves. In the first place though, they think of what a baby will do for them as far as happiness and love, because they really can't think "I'm doing such a good thing for this baby" because the baby doesn't exist yet. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's hard for me to get all my thoughts out clearly through the computer. Sorry.

 

One thing that I've wondered is this: If we knew for sure that the world was going to end in 2012, would people still have children, intentionally? I think they would. That's another thought that made me think people are selfish when they have kids. That's just an interesting thought, though. I don't really think, or at least I hope, that most people would keep trying to have kids.

 

Anyway, I think adopting children and deciding to get pregnant are completely different. Yeah, I agree that we can't guarantee the happiness of adopted child either, but they are already here. You aren't deciding to bring someone onto this earth and then putting the responsibility on them later to be happy. I think there's a better way to put that, but right now that's all I can do.

 

 

I also agree that being a parent is selfless, if you try, obviously, but that's only AFTER you have your child and decide to take care of it. I still think that deciding to have the kid in the first place is selfish, because that kid doesn't exist yet. You are choosing to put another human onto this earth for yourself, because it's what you want. It's obviously not what the kid wants because they don't exist. That's good though, happiness is our choice, but for some it's a lot harder for some reasons you can't control(disease, chemicals, accidents, etc). You bring a child onto this earth and now they have all this responsibility to be happy, when if they were never born it wouldn't matter either way. No burden placed on this new human being.

[QuirkyCute]

This is obviously a matter of perspectives. I don't view life, or the responsibility for my own happiness, a burden. I also view life as a gift. I wouldn't want my life taken from me or someone I love, and because no time on this earth is guaranteed, I feel like my life is a gift. So, if you view life as a gift, you will believe that you are indeed "giving the gift of life" when you bring a child into the world. Again, it's a matter of perspectives.

 

Overall, I don't see why it's better to adopt than have a biological child. To me, they are equal in their merits and disadvantages. The adopted child "already being here" doesn't really make a difference, TO ME. If I want to adopt, I will adopt because I want to adopt, NOT because "they are already here", so I might as well. If I want to have a biological child, I'll have one.

 

So, perspectives and wants.

[PhilliesFan001]

I consider it selfish to have children when you know you're bringing them into an unhealthy environment. If you can't take care of children, are not somewhat financially secure, are in an abusive situation, have a drug or alcohol problem, or have a child as a way to save a marriage..things like that, then yes I consider it very selfish indeed.

 

Other than that, I don't see your points at all. If you don't like children, or you see no point in life, then I guess it makes sense to feel the way you do. But to me, having children is a wonderful, life enhancing thing. Sure, they may experience the bad things in life like everyone does, but they can also experience the beautiful, wonderful things too - love, happiness, education, friendship. I don't think wanting to have a loving, happy family is selfish at all, and a lot of people see children as a natural extension to that family.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

These aren't "complaints"...they're things that mothers and fathers do and I'm asking the OP what's "selfish" about it.

I'm not "horrified" that the OP doesn't want and doesn't see the point to having children but I *am* taken aback by the blanket statement that having kids labels you as selfish. I don't think not having kids makes you a better, more virtuous or less selfish person than people who do.

I'm curious as to why the OP doesn't see any of the joy, sacrifice or happiness that might come with being a parent and instead chooses to label so many men and women who make that choice.

I also think it's interesting that my views are "complaining" and yours is a "fundamentally true perspective". We'll have to agree to disagree and express our respect for others (mothers and non-mothers) as we see fit.

 

You're listing hardships, gripes, downsides of the process of being a parent trying to prove it isn't a selfish act but every single thing an organism does to survive is selfish or the organism would die. Humans are biologically driven to pass their own DNA on to other generations so their DNA "survives". If the definition of selfish is acting in one's own interest, such a biological process is such. People are emotionally tagging the word and twisting it into shapes it doesn't need to take.

[summerpeach]

Some people were put on the planet to procreate and keep the species going and some where not.

I was not, I never EVER had any desire to have kids and I also don't get the excitment. But that's how I'm wired and people who want kids are wired the other way

There is no right and wrong, it's balance. If everyone was wired to want kids, the world would have ended a long time ago with overpopulation and more diseases than now.

 

It's a cruel world for sure and I too don't get how you can love something so much and want to bring it into a place of chaos.

 

But hey, that's what we can life

[FarthestEdge]

Ah- another thread that serves no purpose but to try to inflame and insult every person who chooses to live differently than the original poster....

 

"If you don't do what I want to do, then you must be stupid"

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Methinks some people need to learn to be comfortable with their choices that many may deem unconventional, instead of trying to put everyone else down in some futile attempt to display some sort of superiority over the masses.

[Miss Firecracker]

You want the entire human race to become extinct?

 

Are humans that disgusting to you?

[summerpeach]

Humans are the most "disgusting" species, in my opinion. It's laughable that humans think they are superior. I wonder if animals molest their young, or stone another animal for cheating, or create nuclear bombs.

Yes, humans are not so great

[Miss Firecracker]

Hopefully not all the people you know are child molesters and murderers.

 

I'm sure an animal wouldn't create a nuclear bomb because their brains wouldn't allow it. lol

[Trying1]

Ah- another thread that serves no purpose but to try to inflame and insult every person who chooses to live differently than the original poster....

 

"If you don't do what I want to do, then you must be stupid"

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Methinks some people need to learn to be comfortable with their choices that many may deem unconventional, instead of trying to put everyone else down in some futile attempt to display some sort of superiority over the masses.

 

 

 

The purpose of this thread was to say something out of the norm(that I truly believe) and get a discussion started and to see if anyone could really say anything that made me believe otherwise. Sometimes things offend people. It really wasn't meant to offend a bunch of people, but I figured it probably would, but that wasn't going to stop me from posting it. I don't think people who don't agree with me are stupid, however I do believe that they're not fully understanding what I'm saying. Having children IS selfish. You're doing it for YOU. That's selfish. Is it not? Now, that said, I am completely aware that there are millions of other selfish things humans do daily, good and bad, but that doesn't mean deciding to have kids isn't selfish. It doesn't mean it's necessarily "bad" either, but when you think about all the humans in this world already and all the things we could use our time and money on OTHER than a new human we'd like to bring onto this planet, it does seem kinda bad. Deciding NOT to have a child would be very selfless, if you decided to put that energy into people who already exist. It's easy to do what you want. I totally don't think parents are bad people, but I do think there is an element of selfishness in deciding to have the kids in the first place. Doesn't this seem obvious?? Though nobody says it. I did. That's why I said it. It seems taboo and I wanted to know what people thought about it.

[Trying1]

You want the entire human race to become extinct?

 

Are humans that disgusting to you?

 

Hmm, interesting question. I don't necessarily want the "entire human race to become extinct", but if it happened, it wouldn't affect me. We would all die and then WHO WOULD IT AFFECT?? None of us would have any idea...we'd be dead.

[QuirkyCute]

It only seems "kinda bad" that others would rather spend money, time, and resources bringing a new life into the world TO YOU, that is your thinking, and it will not change because you have your mind made up. My thinking doesn't work that way, for reasons I have already stated (by the way, you didn't answer any of the questions I posed to you). However, I agree with FarthestEdge. You weren't wanting a discussion; that implies you were open to different perspectives, elaborating on those DIFFERENT perspectives, and seeing how they tie back into your own, and that's not what you did. You read other perspectives, decided they weren't good enough for you, and threw them out, hence the notion that "everyone who does not think like you is stupid". That is critiquing everyone's response who doesn't agree with you. If you had said, "I believe having children is selfish. That is all.", that would have been more accurate to the intent of your thread.

[Trying1]

Sorry, what questions didn't I answer. I thought I had, but there's a lot to reply, so I must've missed them or something.Idk.

 

I HAVE agreed with people on what they've said, but I still don't see where anyone is giving me good enough reason to completely agree with what they are saying. I guess I'm just taking responses as questions. You say something and I see how I think about it and how what that person has said STILL doesn't prove otherwise of what I've said OR they're not fully understanding what I mean(because typing my thoughts out aren't as clear as speaking them), so I try to clarify and tell them why what there saying DOES or DOESN'T apply to what I've said. It's simple really. I think deciding to have kids is selfish. Is it not? I'm NOT saying that there isn't a bunch of gray area or things that are selfless, but I'm still saying it IS selfish. Many people on here have agreed with me, while saying some other things along with that. I posted this in order to stir the pot a bit, but not to insult people. People are getting way to defensive about this. Geez. I am going to respond to people whether they like it or not, especially if I see a flaw in what they're saying...based on what I'm trying to say. So that they fully understand what I'm saying.