I think it's selfish to have kids..

[lostnscared]

Was this just some emotional rant or simply a way to convince others of why they should feel the same way you do about children? Or were you trying to get an understanding of reasoning behind having children?

 

selfish or not, people are entitled to whatever reason they like when they make the decision to have a child. It may be selfish to you, but to a parent it's the most selfless thing you can possibly do.

 

If you don't want to have kids or think it's selfish then simply don't have them.

[Blue Spiral]

I appreciate my chance at life too much to not pass it along to another.

 

I've never really liked life, which is why I'm not going to inflict it on someone else.

 

Some people have children for selfless reasons, some have children for selfish reasons, and most fall somewhere in-between, I'm guessing. I know which category my parents fall in...

[Batya33]

I think having a biological child who you plan to parent (i.e., not a surrogate) almost always has a component of selfishness. So what? It depends on how selfish as far as whether it becomes not in the best interests of the child to have that child. I'm sure the OP has done many things in his own best interest (i.e. selfish) in his life - it's all relative and it depends on the balance between selfish and selfless. My child seems thrilled to be here most of the time. So far so good.

[savignon]

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't say that the people are completely selfish with everything they do, but I would say when it comes down to it, it's a selfish act, because you are doing it completely for yourself in the end.

 

Doing what completely for yourself? Gaining 25-50 lbs? Getting up in the middle of the night to feed/rock a baby? Spending hours teaching them how to use the potty, tie their shoes, get dressed? Driving them to their friends houses? Teaching them to read? Helping them with their homework? Playing monopoly with them? Listening to them scream at you you're the worst parent in the world from ages 13-17? Helping them pay for college? Worrying about them driving late at night?

Besides the love, what is exactly is "in it" for the parent that makes it selfish?

Along your line of thinking, then everything is selfish...getting a good job to make decent money is selfish and in your own interest. Having a car so you can get places is in your own interest. Eating so you don't starve to death is in your own self interest.

It's just such a pessimistic way of looking at people to think everyone's just in it for themselves and there's no real love, personal fulfillment, inner joy... or any other motivation involved than "self".

[savignon]

Wow, you changed your post. Doesn't seem as friendly now. People who have kids are not completely selfish, but I think the act of them choosing to have kids is selfish in ways. Maybe not all. I mean, I do believe people want to give their kids love and happiness, but they're taking a gamble on whether or not their child is going to be happy in life, despite how much love, money, and support they give them. I really don't think people think about what they're actually doing when they have a kid, so it's not a conscious selfishness. If that makes any sense.

 

Forgive me, but it doesn't seem very "friendly" to say that people who have children are acting in their own best interest. There are people who wait years and years to have kids, do invitro fertilization, undergo testing, take medicine, find a surrogate, adopt.....and you assume "people don't think about what they're doing"??

Getting in your car is a gamble...flying on a plane is a gamble...spending tens of thousands of dollars on your education is a gamble....but having kids makes you selfish??

I just don't follow the logic and find is awfully presumtuous of someone to say that they understand the motives, interests and thought level of most parents on the planet (dating back to the dawn of humanity in every country, encompassing zillions of people). I assume most people who aren't parents (like myself) don't have a full understanding of the selfLESSness that is involved in raising a child...but to go and say that people who have them or want them are only thinking of themselves or not thinking at all is audacious at best.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

I don't know if rattling off a list of complaints and hardships really changes anything about the intentions of bringing children into the world. I think a lot of people who are having children shouldn't be, and a lot of people should consider adoption but people disregard these types of children. Almost everything humans do is selfish; much of it is foolish or unfair.

 

Birthing children is no different. I'm sure the OP knew this would cause an outcry of people horrified by this simple and fundamentally true perspective, so really there is no point in trying to argue it.

[Teaday]

Someone's standpoint on this truly depends on their own take on life and their experiences and beliefs that support it. It goes far beyond the question of whether or not it is selfish to have a child. Is there really a right or wrong answer? I guess I'm just not the type of person to believe in one "fundamental truth" to anything.

 

I'm glad there are so many different perspectives on this, opposing viewpoints create a sense of balance in the world.

[savignon]

I don't know if rattling off a list of complaints and hardships really changes anything about the intentions of bringing children into the world. I think a lot of people who are having children shouldn't be, and a lot of people should consider adoption but people disregard these types of children. Almost everything humans do is selfish; much of it is foolish or unfair.

 

Birthing children is no different. I'm sure the OP knew this would cause an outcry of people horrified by this simple and fundamentally true perspective, so really there is no point in trying to argue it.

 

These aren't "complaints"...they're things that mothers and fathers do and I'm asking the OP what's "selfish" about it.

I'm not "horrified" that the OP doesn't want and doesn't see the point to having children but I *am* taken aback by the blanket statement that having kids labels you as selfish. I don't think not having kids makes you a better, more virtuous or less selfish person than people who do.

I'm curious as to why the OP doesn't see any of the joy, sacrifice or happiness that might come with being a parent and instead chooses to label so many men and women who make that choice.

I also think it's interesting that my views are "complaining" and yours is a "fundamentally true perspective". We'll have to agree to disagree and express our respect for others (mothers and non-mothers) as we see fit.

[15 Storeys High]

Every living being/thing has "kids"...animals.....plants...are they selfish?

[Trying1]

You mean 'affect', and yes, you're right, but your conclusion is wrong. That they affect the living is exactly why children matter.

 

Yeah, "affect", sorry, I've always had troubles with effect and affect, not sure why. haha. What I meant is that if, even though it's not realistic, everyone stopped having children and everyone died...would it really matter..in the end? I know kids make people happy and they go on to do things for people, but if the human race died out then we wouldn't care because we'd all be dead. That's what I mean.

 

 

I appreciate my chance at life too much to not pass it along to another.

 

But you cannot guarantee your child will have the same experience as you. That's why I say people are taking a gamble when they have kids.

 

 

Deciding whether or not it's selfish comes down to semantics, which never makes much sense. There will never be a definite answer or truth. What does it mean to be selfish? What is selflessness? Where is the line drawn? Excuse the faulty logic, but if it's selfish to have a child but having a child would make you happy, does that mean that happiness is selfish? Further, should all selfish things be avoided? What about happiness?

 

Yeah, I totally understand. My post was just saying what I think about it and asking how others see it. That's all. My thing is, yes, children bring people happiness, but it doesn't always mean it will bring the child happiness. IMO it's kind of a messed up thing when you think about it that way. On the other hand, I DO understand everything else that comes along with having kids and the possibilities, but like said, the good things are not always a sure thing...that's where the "selfishness" comes in.

 

 

Are you calling your parents selfish then?

 

Raising children takes more time, money and energy where I don't see how it could ever be a selfish act. It's in our nature to carry down our genes, that's what our body is meant to do aside from enjoying the life as much as possible. To say that having children is a selfish act is like saying we weren't meant to reproduce and continue the cycle of life.

 

Honestly, I DO think my parents were being selfish when they had me. They weren't fit to be parents and they both died of alcohol related injuries before I turned 19. If they would've never had me, it would've been a better decision. And obviously now I say I'm glad they had me because of experiences I've had, but if I was never born, all of these thoughts would've never occurred and it would all be irrelevant. Though, there were times where I wish they wouldn't have had me, because I was suffering. But anyway, that's not the only reason I believe what I do. I'm sure it helps, but obviously I know people lead much happier lives than I was given and I still think it's selfish to have kids because you never know what problems your kids will have to endure because you decided you wanted a family.

 

 

Was this just some emotional rant or simply a way to convince others of why they should feel the same way you do about children? Or were you trying to get an understanding of reasoning behind having children?

 

selfish or not, people are entitled to whatever reason they like when they make the decision to have a child. It may be selfish to you, but to a parent it's the most selfless thing you can possibly do.

 

I was just stating what I felt and I was curious what other people's views on the subject are. That's all. I even said I wasn't TRYING to offend anyone. I understand people are entitled to have kids for any reason they like, but that doesn't mean they are good reasons. Some better than others. Selfless? I understand what you mean, but this is how I see it: I choose to have a child and I think, "I'm gonna give this kid the best life, the most love, EVERYTHING! They're gonna be sooo happy!" I'm gonna wake up every night feed them, hold them. I'm gonna raise them, give them the best education, listen to them, etc. Alright, so that's GREAT intentions. When that child is born I know the parents love them and want to give them everything(usually, I hope). BUT...people act like they're so selfless because they CHOSE to bring this child onto this earth and now they're taking care of them and doing everything for them, but it's not like they adopted the kid and decided to help them. They brought them here...they almost HAVE TO take care of them or it's a crime or they get taken away or given up for adoption, etc. So I'm taking anything away from parents for taking care of their kids, but stop acting like you're so selfless. YOU brought them here, of course you're gonna take care of them(or you should). It's your responsibility now. Anyway, there's that, and the fact that your kid can be born and you have to best of intentions, but they end up living a horrible life because of a disease, bullies, deformities, or whatever it might be and they aren't happy. If they weren't born it would've made no difference other than the fact that there would be one less unhappy person. And you say, well the parents aren't happy because they don't have kids. Well, currently there is adoption or at least you didn't have a kid and sacrifice their happiness for your own. Okay that's a lot and it probably sounds horrible and * * * * * y, but honestly I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just saying what I think.

 

 

 

I think having a biological child who you plan to parent (i.e., not a surrogate) almost always has a component of selfishness. So what? It depends on how selfish as far as whether it becomes not in the best interests of the child to have that child. I'm sure the OP has done many things in his own best interest (i.e. selfish) in his life - it's all relative and it depends on the balance between selfish and selfless. My child seems thrilled to be here most of the time. So far so good.

 

By saying that planning to have kids is a self act I'm not saying that NOTHING ELSE is selfish or that I'm not selfish. I'm just pointing out the fact that I think planning to have kids is selfish and unlike a lot of things people do that are selfish, this one involves someone else's life that you are gambling in order to make yourself happy and I think that's what gets me. I'm glad your kid is happy to be alive, but first, you could not guarantee their happiness when you decided to give birth to them, so you got lucky and so did they. If they weren't happy and were suffering, then what would you say? Second, if they were never born at all they wouldn't know the difference. Now that they are here I can see why them being here is the best choice.

 

 

 

 

Doing what completely for yourself? Gaining 25-50 lbs? Getting up in the middle of the night to feed/rock a baby? Spending hours teaching them how to use the potty, tie their shoes, get dressed? Driving them to their friends houses? Teaching them to read? Helping them with their homework? Playing monopoly with them? Listening to them scream at you you're the worst parent in the world from ages 13-17? Helping them pay for college? Worrying about them driving late at night?

Besides the love, what is exactly is "in it" for the parent that makes it selfish?

 

Well, obviously there must be something in it for the parents or else why would they have children. I said this already, so I'll keep this a shorter answer. I say: If you choose to have children, then you are selfish. You CHOSE to have them, so now YOU take those responsibilities and do them..or at least that's what you should do. Parent's shouldn't act like their doing their children a favor by doing what parent's are supposed to do after they CHOSE to bring them onto this earth for their own wants. Your kid didn't choose to be here. You owe it them when they're born to give them a good life. Some people do, some people don't. The people that do give them a good life...I think that's great and those are good parents, but they did bring them here for their own happiness, not their child's, because there is not guarantee there. Bad parents, well, they're selfish because they brought the kid here and chose not to do the right things for them. Neither one is really thinking about the kid's ultimate happiness.

 

 

 

Along your line of thinking, then everything is selfish...getting a good job to make decent money is selfish and in your own interest. Having a car so you can get places is in your own interest. Eating so you don't starve to death is in your own self interest.

It's just such a pessimistic way of looking at people to think everyone's just in it for themselves and there's no real love, personal fulfillment, inner joy... or any other motivation involved than "self".

 

No, I'm not saying there's no love or joy in it. But you are taking a gamble when you choose to bring someone onto this earth. You have no idea what they're going to go through and suffer. When you choose to have a kid, it's because you want to have your little family, or have someone love you, or your family wants you to, or you want to pass your bloodline, etc. Other things ARE selfish. Did I say they weren't at some point?? I understand that having kids isn't the only selfish thing people do, but people don't usually think of it as being selfish and I do. That's why I said something. Other things that are selfish, that you mentioned, don't take a gamble with someone else's life. ie. I'm gonna bring someone on this earth so that I can be happier.

 

Forgive me, but it doesn't seem very "friendly" to say that people who have children are acting in their own best interest. There are people who wait years and years to have kids, do invitro fertilization, undergo testing, take medicine, find a surrogate, adopt.....and you assume "people don't think about what they're doing"??

Getting in your car is a gamble...flying on a plane is a gamble...spending tens of thousands of dollars on your education is a gamble....but having kids makes you selfish??

I just don't follow the logic and find is awfully presumtuous of someone to say that they understand the motives, interests and thought level of most parents on the planet (dating back to the dawn of humanity in every country, encompassing zillions of people). I assume most people who aren't parents (like myself) don't have a full understanding of the selfLESSness that is involved in raising a child...but to go and say that people who have them or want them are only thinking of themselves or not thinking at all is audacious at best.

 

 

Oh there's thought behind it..in the way you mention, but why do parents go through all that? For themselves. They aren't desperately trying to have a kid because the kid wants to desperately be here. I don't think adoption is selfish in the way choosing to give birth is, because those kids are already here and adopting them is going to help them. They have thoughts. They want love. The have emotions and conscious. Anyway, I'm not saying parents are selfish in every way or bad people, what I meant when I said they don't think about it, is they don't think about what unhappiness and sadness their child may face all just because they wanted to be happy and feel loved. Does that make sense?? It IS a selfish act, just like a lot of things are selfish acts, but the difference is people don't think of it as a selfish act and I do, so I'm just putting it out there.

[savignon]

I understand better what you're saying now. At the same time, the parents are focusing (or at least I as a hopeful parent focus on) the joy that will come with it..the laughter, the smiles, the games, the sharing...I could choose to focus on bruised knees, getting bullied in school, getting their heart broken, but I don't focus on that. Of course you can't predict what joys or pains will come for the child but I feel like saying "don't have them to spare them unhappiness and sadness" is the same thing as saying, "don't fall inlove because you could get hurt". I understand that you're making the difference between your own hurt/pain and someone else's, but I don't choose to let fear hold me back from having a family. Of course my child, like all other people, will experience sadness at some point and it's a part of life just like all the good stuff. Overall, I'm glad I'm here and I hope my child will be, too!!

Are you not happy that you're here? Maybe that's where this is coming from...?? Were your parents happy to have you? Did you experience a lot of unhappiness and sadness?

My aunt has a *very* strong opinion that people who don't have kids are selfish b/c they don't want to consider any sacrifice of their time, space, money, energy, resources, etc. So, I guess it can be viewed both ways.

I can't judge people either way because in the end, we have a pretty good world, in my estimation, where a lot of people get to enjoy being happy, successful, healthy and loved. I hope my child will find that despite any heartache and suffering, those things make the bumps in the road worth it and even appreciate and cherish them more because of the darker days.

[Trying1]

Glad that you understand more of what I'm saying. I hope parent's would focus more on the good, too, but I still can't help but to think the way I do. If someone told you straight out that if you were going to get pregnant and have a child, there is definitely a 50/50 chance on whether they'd be very happy or very unhappy, would you take that gamble with their life?? I don't know. Obviously people aren't going to stop having kids, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

 

Sometimes, no, I'm not happy I'm here, but I'm not going to commit suicide and it's hard for me to say I wish I was never born, only because I know all the good things I would've missed out on, but at the same time I can think, if I was never born then obviously I would have no idea what I'd be missing so it really wouldn't matter. My parents were happy they had me, but they weren't the best people to have kids.

 

And as for not having kids being selfish...yeah, I can see how she could come to that. But people can give up their time and money to the people in this world who are already here and need the resources, rather than bringing one more person onto this planet that needs it, but wouldn't otherwise if they were never born.

[15 Storeys High]

Every living being/thing has "kids"...animals.....plants...are they selfish?

 

??...................

[savignon]

If someone told you straight out that if you were going to get pregnant and have a child, there is definitely a 50/50 chance on whether they'd be very happy or very unhappy, would you take that gamble with their life??

 

I guess I don't see the odds as being 50/50. In the grand scheme of things I don't think that 50% of people wish they weren't here/were never born. And those people who are suffering....some of it's chemical, some of it's environmental, some of it's personality....and in some cases it's due to poor parenting. I think that most parents get pregnant thinking about what they'll get from it (love, attention, affection) and ALSO what they'll give (love, attention, affection, time, resources, opportunity, etc). Do you ever feel good about giving a gift? It's like that. Some people think giving is rewarding and joyful. But then you could say that the joy and happiness are the "payback" for the giving and they're doing it for that. I have more faith in people than to think they're all just out for themselves.

I'm glad you've experienced all of the good things that make you happy you were born and that you can credit your parents as being not so bad.

[Trying1]

Every living being/thing has "kids"...animals.....plants...are they selfish?

 

Sorry, I missed that one. Ya know, I'm not really sure on that one. I don't know if those things are able to think like humans are. As far as I know, they're not, but I don't like to say I'm %100 sure of anything. On that note, I think plants and animals are simply doing what they know to do by nature...which is reproduce, reproduce, reproduce, just like human nature, the only difference is that humans can think about it and make decisions based on different variables. I honestly don't think humans think: I need to reproduce in order to keep the human race alive. That might be our driving force behind why we have sex, but that's not why we have kids these days. There's already way too many humans on this earth right now as it is.

[15 Storeys High]

^ That's all just speculation on your part. You have no idea what really drives a human to reproduce...or what drives animals to reproduce. You're just applying your current beliefs and values to the rest of the human race. Nothing wrong with that except it's completely flawed. And really.....lets be honest here. You're 22. You're a baby in the grand scheme of things. You may think you know exactly what you want but views change, especially once you reach adulthood. The twenties isn't adulthood....it's the transistion to adulthood. If you still feel the same at 32 then fair enough. Judge those animals/humans/plants who have kids all you want.

[Trying1]

The 50/50 things was just an extreme example.

 

People can do plenty of things for other people that will bring joy and happiness. Why do we feel the need to bring more people onto this planet to help and bring joy to, while we ignore all the people who are already here and that need it because nobody will give it to them?? And yeah, I agree, I don't believe people are just out for themselves either, that's where my whole, "people don't think about it beforehand" thing comes in again. People aren't thinking about all the things I'm saying and that's expected and understandable.

[savignon]

Along the same lines, people should recycle, buy used cars, take public transportation if possible, wear second hand clothes so as not to waste them or fill garbage bags full of useful things....

I guess it's easier for me to accept that most people are doing their best most of the time (which varies person to person) than to believe we're on a downward spiral towards overpopulation, no ozone layer, polluted air and on and on. Those things are happening, but it doesn't make me want to stop living or stop contributing to the world or not have a child/family of my own. Just like I want my own car instead of taking the bus which would be environmentally more responsible. If that makes me selfish in some people's eyes, I can live with it.

[Trying1]

^ That's all just speculation on your part. You have no idea what really drives a human to reproduce...or what drives animals to reproduce. You're just applying your current beliefs and values to the rest of the human race. Nothing wrong with that except it's completely flawed. And really.....lets be honest here. You're 22. You're a baby in the grand scheme of things. You may think you know exactly what you want but views change, especially once you reach adulthood. The twenties isn't adulthood....it's the transistion to adulthood. If you still feel the same at 32 then fair enough. Judge those animals/humans/plants who have kids all you want.

 

 

I am 22, and this post is what I think currently. I know this. Saying the whole, "you're a baby" thing doesn't apply, because I'm only saying my opinion, my age doesn't discredit my opinion. I KNOW things can change for me later, but it doesn't change what I feel now. "You may think you know exactly what you want but views change" I KNOW THIS. I've said it multiple times in my life. I'm fully aware, thank you. This thought process is part of my transition. I'm only trying to understand my thoughts and how other people think and why my thoughts may be wrong or flawed. This is the meaning of the thread. I want to know what other people think. I'm not really judging people/animals/plants, I'm only stating what I've concluded(so far) based on my own thoughts. I'm not saying anyone is "bad" for it. Like said before by others on here, everyone is selfish in someway or another, but I don't think everyone is bad because of that. I'm saying I think making the decision to have children is selfish. It's something a lot people may or may not agree on. It's not as obvious as some other things that are selfish, which is what makes this an interesting topic and discussion.

 

 

Not really sure what to say about what drives people or animals and plants(especially) to reproduce, but I do know that humans are capable of making decisions based on pros and cons. We are fully capable of using birth control if we really don't want kids. We are intelligent enough to know the repercussions of having a baby or not having a baby. I do not believe, though I don't know for sure, that animals and plants have that ability.

[Trying1]

Along the same lines, people should recycle, buy used cars, take public transportation if possible, wear second hand clothes so as not to waste them or fill garbage bags full of useful things....

I guess it's easier for me to accept that most people are doing their best most of the time (which varies person to person) than to believe we're on a downward spiral towards overpopulation, no ozone layer, polluted air and on and on. Those things are happening, but it doesn't make me want to stop living or stop contributing to the world or not have a child/family of my own. Just like I want my own car instead of taking the bus which would be environmentally more responsible. If that makes me selfish in some people's eyes, I can live with it.

 

And that's fine. As I've said before, having kids isn't the only selfish thing people do and it's not the MOST selfish thing people do, but I do believe it IS a selfish act and since it's not really looked at that way, I thought I'd bring it up just to see what other people think about it. I also think since it's a, IMO, a selfish act that involves bringing someone else(who otherwise wouldn't have to deal with anything) into this world, it makes it worse.

[15 Storeys High]

Some animals eat their young if they consider them too weak......so they do make decisions. Some animals disown their young. Some animals nurture and love their young. Others feed them and then kick them out of "the family home". In many ways they're the same as humans. We just like to complicate things by analysing.....reproducing is human nature....it is the fundamental reason why there is man and woman.....why there are eggs and sperm.....to reproduce....to repopulate....it's simply evolution. We only make it complicated when we start believing we're more important than the animal kingdom...who have been around a lot longer than we have.....we evolved from mammals lets not forget. When it comes down to it we're simply mammals with a biological urge to reproduce just like all the other beings out there.

[savignon]

I'm not really judging people

 

Saying "I don't want to have children" is not a judgement of other people.

Saying...

"making the decision to have children is selfish"

is absolutely, 100% a judgement, as is saying that people don't think before they have children.

You say that ...

"We are intelligent enough to know the repercussions of having a baby or not having a baby"

but have stated you think people are overpopulating the world and not even thinking about it.

Just understand that people are reading a lot of judgement in your words and aren't reacting to your own personal choices or decisions but your over-generalizations and assumptions (=judgements) of people who don't make the same choice or don't think the same way as you. None of us since the dawn of civilization had the "choice" to be here, but it doesn't mean the world would be better off without us or that we'd be better off never having existed or that our parents, grandparents, and so on are selfish people.

[Trying1]

Yes, we do have the biological urge to reproduce, hence why we have sex, but we can use protection. We are intelligent enough to realize having kids isn't going to benefit anyone, but ourselves...usually. I'm not one of those people who believe humans are more important than other animals. I only say what I say about animals based on what I've learned and heard about animals. They do what comes naturally to them. As I know it, they don't usually make decisions like humans do. Maybe they do, I can't get into their heads and know for sure what's going on with them. A lot of animals DO need to reproduce to populate, though(based on all the animals that are endangered). Humans don't(not now. there's too many of us already, currently). But that's not really what I'm saying. In the end, if we all stopped reproducing, then we'd all die and then what?? Nothing. Would you care? Why? You're dead, and so is everyone else, so then...? When humans decide to have kids it's for their own happiness, not because they want to reproduce for all mankind. That's why it's selfish.

[Trying1]

Okay, I'm judging, because I'm saying opinion. Fine. Most people agree that it's a selfish act, though. Oh well, I'm judging. Big deal. It's not necessarily a bad judgment. Everyone judges. You have to. People have opinions.

 

And, you're confused. I've already explained what I meant about people thinking before they have kids. When people DECIDE to have kids, I know they think about it. They think about finances, living conditions, whether it's good timing or not, etc. But what I'm saying they don't think about is just what I'm saying: Is this child going to be %100 healthy and happy their whole life and is this a risk I'm willing to take in order to make MYSELF happy?? Or maybe I should just adopt and make a kid happy who already exists.

Now, I'm not saying people who have kids are bad, but they don't think about THAT^ before having a child and if they do, then they still have kids...I believe it's a selfish act. And when they don't think about it, then I guess it's more of an unintentional, but still, selfish act.

[Trying1]

And, btw, EVERYONE is selfish in some way or at some point. Is that not true? So then why is it so offensive if I say having kids is selfish? You say I'm making a judgment about all these people that I don't know by saying they're selfish, but I don't have to say they're selfish because they had kids; I could say they're selfish for plenty of other reasons. People, more likely than not, IMO, are having kids for themselves and that is selfish. Don't say you're doing it for the kid. The kid doesn't exist. They don't know the difference. That's just an excuse that someone would use to make it seem less selfish.

 

FINE, selfish! Who cares. Like said, EVERYONE is selfish, but not EVERYONE is a bad person. No correlation.