Did my (ex?)boyfriend step over the line sexually?

[Scott12]

There are some situations where "clarification" is not really needed in my opinion, to go on a very strong interpretation of events.

 

If you get something to eat and say to a friend, "Here, try this, it's delicious!" and the person gives it a tentative sniff, then takes a small bite and tosses the dish back to you, wretching and gagging, turning beet red and says, "Ughghghggh!!! How can you EAT that??! That's NASTY!!!" what is the likelihood you're going to want to offer that to them again, if you have any brains in your head? (in fact, might it not become a memorable incident in your history together that it happened?)

 

Tired,

 

Except this is not what happened at all the first time as was explained in the OP. Her b/f engaged in some anal play with his fingers, which she stated in the OP she found enjoyable. They then moved on to having anal sex, during which, sometime after (the duration of time is not clarified) she broke down. After breaking down, she then explained her abuse to him, presumably while both of them were still drunk.

 

When someone screams "no no no" and breaks down, saying they were abused as a child, I don't believe, "so therefore, please don't try to do that again" is necessary to get the point accross. It is completely implied in the response.

 

But that's just the thing. Most therapy geared toward sexual abuse survivors teaches them that they should be in total control during sex. They should outline exactly what is and is not acceptable to them and what could trigger a flashback. They should be communicative before, during and after sex.

 

But this is very straightforward penis-in-place-you-don't-usually-stick-it; it's anal sex, which as was pointed out, is already something where two people usually confer on beforehand, even when abuse isn't even in the picture.

 

I was asking for clarification on what she meant by he "tried" to have anal sex with her again and whether that meant that he was stimulating her anally with his fingers again or whether he actually tried to insert his penis.

 

Scott

[deardeer]

I am not sure of the duration of the first incident. I was drunk, confused, and with the flashback I kind of checked out of reality. He said it was going on for several minutes before I freaked out.

 

The second time, he DID try to insert his penis. Without ANY discussion or indication he was heading that direction. From friends I know who are into anal sex, even when it is something both partners are into it takes a great deal of preparation, lube, and communication to do in a way that is safe and enjoyable for both people.

[tiredofvampires]

Most therapy geared toward sexual abuse survivors teaches them that they should be in total control during sex. They should outline exactly what is and is not acceptable to them and what could trigger a flashback. They should be communicative before, during and after sex.

 

That is all good and well. And I'm very much an "I want to share your thoughts and feelings, talk to me" type of partner. But I, as an attuned, sensitive partner (whether there are outstanding circumstances or not) have some responsibilities, too. And one of them is to pick up cues -- both subtle and overt -- about what hurts, what doesn't feel good, what feels good, etc.

 

And if my partner screamed like that, it's fair to say my radar, as a lover and girlfriend, would detect that this is one thing we're not gonna do like a baseball bat communicates with an incoming ball.

[OpentoLife]

 

They should be communicative before, during and after sex.

 

 

Scott

 

Hypothetical situation here Scott (slightly different than the OP's situation). You're with a woman. You have anal sex. Afterwards she starts sobbing uncontrollably. She tells you she was assaulted and having anal sex is a horrible reminder of that. She's crying, she's screaming. She says she never wants to have that again, it's too traumatic.

 

Would you try to have anal sex with her again?

[Scott12]

I am not sure of the duration of the first incident. I was drunk, confused, and with the flashback I kind of checked out of reality. He said it was going on for several minutes before I freaked out.

 

The second time, he DID try to insert his penis. Without ANY discussion or indication he was heading that direction. From friends I know who are into anal sex, even when it is something both partners are into it takes a great deal of preparation, lube, and communication to do in a way that is safe and enjoyable for both people.

 

Deardeer,

 

Okay, that clarifies things. Regardless of whether the guy is a jerk or not, I'd suggest that you're not ready for a sexual relationship at this time. Have you done much work with your therapist regarding how you should approach sexual relationships in the future? The reason I ask is because the thing that is stressed constantly during sex therapy is that you as the survivor must maintain total control over all sexual encounters. Given that you describe two incidents where you were quite drunk and engaging in sex (which is never recommended) I think you may still need to work on how to control sexual encounter to ensure your comfort.

 

Scott

[Scott12]

Hypothetical situation here Scott (slightly different than the OP's situation). You're with a woman. You have anal sex. Afterwards she starts sobbing uncontrollably. She tells you she was assaulted and having anal sex is a horrible reminder of that. She's crying, she's screaming. She says she never wants to have that again, it's too traumatic.

 

Would you try to have anal sex with her again?

 

Except she didn't say that she never wanted to have it again. She said that she figured it was implied. She also never said that she specifically told him that it was the anal sex that triggered the flashback (I meant to ask for clarification on that as well), not to mention that they were both drunk and had both just experienced a traumatic event when they had the discussion.

 

Listen, I'm not defending the guy and I'm not castigating him either. I'm merely saying that when it comes to sexual abuse, things are never as cut and dried as they seem, and we should consider mitigating circumstances before labeling the guy as a jerk.

 

Scott

[OpentoLife]

Except she didn't say that she never wanted to have it again. She said that she figured it was implied. She also never said that she specifically told him that it was the anal sex that triggered the flashback (I meant to ask for clarification on that as well), not to mention that they were both drunk and had both just experienced a traumatic event when they had the discussion.

 

Listen, I'm not defending the guy and I'm not castigating him either. I'm merely saying that when it comes to sexual abuse, things are never as cut and dried as they seem, and we should consider mitigating circumstances before labeling the guy as a jerk.

 

Scott

 

Okay, well then let's just go with her situation... you're having anal sex with a woman, after a minute or two (which is how long she said it "might" have gone) she starts screaming "NO", and crying hysterically. As a man, I would not try to penetrate her in that way again unless she specifically asks or she says yes to it, as there is obviously something going on there. I still don't see where the "confusion" would come into play. I'm doing something with my girlfriend, she screams NO in the middle of it and cries for an hour, then tells me she was assaulted. In my brain I take note "don't do that sex act again unless she asks me for it or tells me it's okay".

 

And you're right about it not being cut and dry... but you know, sometimes common sense needs to be present. Something this guy obviously was lacking.

[mmmd]

that's really messed up of him.

[Scott12]

OpentoLife,

 

To be completely literal, no one should initiate sex with a sexual abuse survivor. The abuse survivor should always initiate and should control what actions are engaged in, the positions, the duration, etc., etc. Perhaps because I've experienced my ex-wife have a flashback episode very similar to the OP's, I can say that it isn't just as simple as making the connection between A and B for the one having sex with the abuse survivor. There are a thousand mixed signals that have to be deciphered.

 

In all honesty, and I don't mean this to be offensive, but it is very much like the old joke:

 

"How do porcupines have sex?"

"Very carefully!"

 

There has to be constant communication about where you can touch and how long and are you feeling okay and should I keep going or stop. There is no such thing as spontaneous sex with a sexual abuse survivor and it's hard for people who haven't been sexually abused to understand that.

 

Scott

[Taikero]

After some further clarification by the OP, things are a bit more clear. The (ex)boyfriend should have asked her at the very least if she wanted to try anal sex again before the second incident occurred rather than trying to just make his way in. However, in my view, after crying for an hour about things and talking about her past, he or she should have brought up things later when they were sober. I still stand by that, because the second incident could very well have been avoided if assumptions hadn't been made on both sides.

 

That being said, I do now agree that the guy is at best dense and at the worst an uncaring selfish ass. Even if the first incident hadn't happened, you don't just go stick your penis in right away with anal sex, especially without warning. That alone would be an issue of contention in my eyes, though I can't see him forgetting an hour of crying and discussion about childhood abuse, assuming she did actually say the anal sex was what triggered those thoughts or the abuse was based around that (I assume it played a part at least). If there wasn't a clear indication that was the trigger for her, or he believed that most/all sexual acts could trigger these memories for her, then I can still maybe see cause for confusion, but in any case he should have asked both for permission in general with anal sex and to make sure she'd be okay with it (which she wouldn't be) given the first incident.

 

I'm still confused as to whether the OP made it clear to her (ex)boyfriend that anal sex was the trigger for all this.

 

 

In any case, I do want to clarify that I would never personally misconstrue something like this. I've seen what abuse can do to people, whether it's physical, sexual, or emotional, and it does have unexpected triggers and sometimes the reactions to certain things can be very strong when/if they trigger those memories. I would want to be sure I clarified what not to do so I didn't hurt her again like that if I ended up in a similar situation like the first incident.

 

My main purpose here was to avoid condemning someone before having further clarification. In other situations I've been on the bad end of misunderstandings and it's very hard to clear things up when other people focus on one particular thing within the situation and forget all the extenuating circumstances, so I just wanted to be a little more objective about things rather than jumping to the conclusion that this guy just wasn't listening or caring (which, apparently, was the case).

[BunnyTee]

It's probably best just to tell this guy straight up-*IF* you ever speak to him again that you're just not into the whole backdoor thing. Period. .

Some people are thicker in the head than others. So be frank.

I'm thinking he's of the "thicker" variety for concluding that the first experience was a sort of positive indicator that you really like anal sex. Like who would think otherwise upon seeing someone commence protest in "no, no no!" Perhaps he's thinking he'll manage to change your mind in this.

Trying the same thing after you've told him no is a total deal breaker. If he can't respect your boundaries or he's too thick to "get" this, heave ho! over the side he goes.

[Puckdog27]

I'm still confused as to whether the OP made it clear to her (ex)boyfriend that anal sex was the trigger for all this.

 

Taikero - that was a very well written and understanding post. So I dont want you to take issue to this, but this one sentence above is where I think the confusion is for you.

 

If inserting your penis into someone's anus and them responding by screaming and crying hysterically for hours, then moving on to tell you how they were molested isn't enough of a warning sign that this was a trigger, I dont know what ever will be.

[Scott12]

Taikero - that was a very well written and understanding post. So I dont want you to take issue to this, but this one sentance above is where I think the confusion is for you.

 

If inserting your penis into someone's anus and them responding by screaming and crying hysterically for hours, then moving on to tell you how they were molested isn't enough of a warning sign that this was a trigger, I dont know what ever will be.

 

Puckdog,

 

Except you're ignoring the mixed signals. She stated that she was enjoying it at first, and that they had anal sex for anywhere from 2-"several" minutes. Then she had the flashback. I guess it's just hard to understand (and explain) unless you've experienced a flashback episode caused by sexual abuse.

 

My ex-wife had a flashback episode while we were having vaginal sex once. Did that mean that the vaginal sex was what caused the flashback? No. Rather, I gripped her butt during sex in a way that was "familiar" to what her abuser had done. Unless the abuse survivor is very specific about what caused the flashback, it can be extremely confusing for their partner. Flashback triggers are NOT always linear.

 

Scott

[Taikero]

Taikero - that was a very well written and understanding post. So I dont want you to take issue to this, but this one sentance above is where I think the confusion is for you.

 

If inserting your penis into someone's anus and them responding by screaming and crying hysterically for hours, then moving on to tell you how they were molested isn't enough of a warning sign that this was a trigger, I dont know what ever will be.

 

As the OP said in one of her more recent posts, her (ex)boyfriend apparently said the anal sex went on for some "minutes" of time. If that is the case and the truth of what happened, it wasn't an immediate reaction and even I would need clarification that yes, the anal sex was what triggered this response ("no no no!" and crying and reliving of the abuse).

 

Now, if she explained this or it was clearly apparent in her explanation to him of her abuse that anal sex was the trigger, I'm completely on board with calling this guy out on his so-called "misinterpretation." If however, that connection was never actually made in conversation (assuming the anal sex did go on for a while before these memories came flooding back), I can still see how there could be confusion on the (ex)boyfriend's part, room for misreading what CAUSED all this to happen. Even then that doesn't excuse this guy from failing to clear up and understand what her triggers are (I still believe this all ties back to poor communication), but I can at least see where he could have genuinely not understood that anal sex = reliving bad memories don't go there.

[Puckdog27]

Im sorry, and none of us was there, but I saw no mixed signals in any of this.

 

And just because it went on the first time for "minutes" before her reaction kicked in does not negate her reaction which was to scream in horror and cry for hours.

[Puckdog27]

Puckdog,

 

Except you're ignoring the mixed signals. She stated that she was enjoying it at first, and that they had anal sex for anywhere from 2-"several" minutes. Then she had the flashback. I guess it's just hard to understand (and explain) unless you've experienced a flashback episode caused by sexual abuse.

 

My ex-wife had a flashback episode while we were having vaginal sex once. Did that mean that the vaginal sex was what caused the flashback? No. Rather, I gripped her butt during sex in a way that was "familiar" to what her abuser had done. Unless the abuse survivor is very specific about what caused the flashback, it can be extremely confusing for their partner. Flashback triggers are NOT always linear.

 

Scott

 

Do you grab her butt anymore during vaginal sex? It wasnt the vaginal sex that was the trigger it was the butt squeeze because previous vaginal sex didnt trigger her reaction and you learned from her reaction...you made my case for me.

 

 

Flashback triggers arent always linear, but someone screaming NO NO NO NO and crying hysterically is pretty straight forward.

 

Anyway, Im not going to condemn nor continue to argue your opinions. My point was to support the OPs decision to either keep or get rid of the guy. I think my opinion has been made clear, and thats all I posted it for.

[deardeer]

Puckdog,

 

Except you're ignoring the mixed signals. She stated that she was enjoying it at first, and that they had anal sex for anywhere from 2-"several" minutes. Then she had the flashback. I guess it's just hard to understand (and explain) unless you've experienced a flashback episode caused by sexual abuse.

 

My ex-wife had a flashback episode while we were having vaginal sex once. Did that mean that the vaginal sex was what caused the flashback? No. Rather, I gripped her butt during sex in a way that was "familiar" to what her abuser had done. Unless the abuse survivor is very specific about what caused the flashback, it can be extremely confusing for their partner. Flashback triggers are NOT always linear.

 

Scott

 

I was VERY clear that that was what triggered the flashback.

[Scott12]

Do you grab her butt anymore during vaginal sex? It wasnt the vaginal sex that was the trigger it was the butt squeeze because previous vaginal sex didnt trigger her reaction...you made my case for me.

 

 

Flashback triggers arent always linear, but someone screaming NO NO NO NO and crying hysterically is pretty straight forward.

 

Anyway, Im not going to condemn nor continue to argue your opinions. My point was to support the OPs decision to either keep or get rid of the guy. I think my opinion has been made clear, and thats all I posted it for.

 

Puckdog,

 

We're divorced, so I sure don't grab her butt during sex, mainly because we don't have sex anymore.

 

I really don't know how to explain this any better. The ONLY reason I knew that me squeezing her butt triggered the flashback is because she told me, and the only reason she knew is it was something she recalled after several therapy sessions. When it happened I was completely mystified and scared. I nearly called 911 the first time it happened because I didn't know what the hell was going on.

 

Look at it from the other perspective. Imagine you're the guy, and you've been having anal sex with this girl for several minutes and she has really been enjoying it and then all of a sudden BAM! she starts screaming and crying uncontrollably for an hour. You're honestly telling me you're immediately going to just KNOW that the trigger was the anal sex when she had been enjoying it previously? I can tell you from experience that it just doesn't work that way.

 

Sometimes flashbacks can be triggered by cologne, which isn't even the same cologne as the abuser wore, just by the very fact that you're wearing cologne. Sometimes by a way of touching, or grabbing. Sometimes by where you're having sex. Sometimes by when you're having sex. Sometimes there IS no identifiable trigger.

 

The point is that flashback triggers aren't logical. They are not consistent, because what triggers a flashback one time might not the next, or, something you've done thousands of times with no problems could all of a sudden trigger a flashback.

 

Scott

[OpentoLife]

OpentoLife,

 

To be completely literal, no one should initiate sex with a sexual abuse survivor. The abuse survivor should always initiate and should control what actions are engaged in, the positions, the duration, etc., etc. Perhaps because I've experienced my ex-wife have a flashback episode very similar to the OP's, I can say that it isn't just as simple as making the connection between A and B for the one having sex with the abuse survivor. There are a thousand mixed signals that have to be deciphered.

 

I agree with that to a point. But you just argued against your own point. This guy initiated anal sex (the second time) with a girl he knew was a sexual abuse survivor. He was wrong for doing that. Period. That is what this whole thing is about. Not recognizing the other persons limits and feelings. Sure she could've and probably should've said "Anal sex is out of the question, no matter what. Please do not try that with me again". But, her reaction to it the first time said that. He either chose to ignore it or is incredibly stupid and missed that point altogether.

[Scott12]

I was VERY clear that that was what triggered the flashback.

 

Deardeer,

 

Honestly, I think the problem was the alcohol, both times.

 

Scott

[Scott12]

I agree with that to a point. But you just argued against your own point. This guy initiated anal sex (the second time) with a girl he knew was a sexual abuse survivor. He was wrong for doing that. Period. That is what this whole thing is about. Not recognizing the other persons limits and feelings. Sure she could've and probably should've said "Anal sex is out of the question, no matter what. Please do not try that with me again". But, her reaction to it the first time said that. He either chose to ignore it or is incredibly stupid and missed that point altogether.

 

OpentoLife,

 

I'm just going to fall back to my default position of "it's just impossible to understand unless you've been there".

 

Scott

[deardeer]

Deardeer,

 

Honestly, I think the problem was the alcohol, both times.

 

Scott

 

I think the alcohol led to me not setting boundaries, but without getting into my history, it was that specific act that triggered the flashback. I have had trust issues in relationships before, but that is the one and only time I have ever had a flashback.

[Puckdog27]

Puckdog,

 

Look at it from the other perspective. Imagine you're the guy, and you've been having anal sex with this girl for several minutes and she has really been enjoying it and then all of a sudden BAM! she starts screaming and crying uncontrollably for an hour. You're honestly telling me you're immediately going to just KNOW that the trigger was the anal sex when she had been enjoying it previously? I can tell you from experience that it just doesn't work that way.

 

No, but her spending hours crying and telling me how somewhere in the middle of the anal sex, she experienced a flashback that created this reaction would be enough for me KNOW AND tO UNDERSTAND that this act can never happen again with her.

 

We often learn "experience" in the mode of Action = Reaction....Your experience that you mention is this......

 

Action - having vaginal sex with the wife (or ex wife) and I grab her ass

Reaction - SHE SCREAMS TO THE POINT I FEEL I NEED TO CALL 911 then explains her behaviour.

Learned from Action - DO NOT GRAB WIFES ASS DURING SEX.

 

ACTION - Initiate anal sex

REACTION - Hysterical Screaming and crying

 

What would the learned behaviour be for any rational and/or intelligent person?

 

DONT INITIATE ANAL SEX AGAIN

 

You make a point of "No one should have anal sex with a sex abuse victim". I once had a girlfriend who was sexually abused by her uncle and grandfather and anal had nothing to do with it. She was made to perform oral.......so I never asked for or initiated oral and I accepted it was off the table.

 

Once she told him the anal sex triggered this event, anal came off the table

[itsallgrand]

I think the alcohol led to me not setting boundaries, but without getting into my history, it was that specific act that triggered the flashback. I have had trust issues in relationships before, but that is the one and only time I have ever had a flashback.

 

How are you doing now, deardeer? Are you ok? Sleeping alright?

 

I think you just need to focus on keeping yourself healthy and safe. I'm glad you are looking at the part drinking may have had. Of course, the drinking itself didn't make you at fault nor cause the traumatic reaction you had, but by choosing to not drink when it comes to sex and your relationships - it will give you more control over your environment and what is happening. You'll be better aware and prepared to handle whatever may come your way.

 

You are still in therapy, right? This incident may something good to bring up in your session. Yah?

 

Perhaps there will be some positives to take from this anyways. It may sound bizarre, but in a way - flashbacks can be a good sign. They often don't come until a person feels secure enough that their mind somehow knows instinstively that they can handle it. Before that, it's often a blank. Now that you are having the memories, you can deal with it on a deeper level and hopefully get even closer to feeling healed and strong.

 

Congrats on listening to your own gut and mind on this one. You listened how you felt. That is a good sign too. You are starting to trust yourself again. tc.

[OpentoLife]

OpentoLife,

 

I'm just going to fall back to my default position of "it's just impossible to understand unless you've been there".

 

Scott

 

You are right. But I do understand. I was abused by family friend between the ages of 6 and 8. I was also in a LTR with a woman a few years back who was abused by her uncle until she gave birth to his child when she was 15. I know how I dealt with it. I know, to some degree, how she dealt with it. I know what common sense is. If you're with someone, ANYONE, and they scream "NO"... stop what you're doing and NEVER do that again unless she initiates it or asks you to do it. And that goes double for someone who has been a victim of sexual abuse. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.