Did my (ex?)boyfriend step over the line sexually?

[Puckdog27]

Anal on its own is an unassumed sex act in most cases too. I cant imagine simply sliding into a woman's backdoor without asking first. He seems to think he can just enter her anally anytime he wants. That may be OK in some relationships, but I cant imagine its the norm in many (and I would imagine its an agreement thats been mutually reached first).

 

It makes me wonder about his own behaviour towards doing whatever he wants.

[Puckdog27]

It's a little different I think when she said she felt good at first, but then memories from the past came back to the surface. That's hard to read and very much a case of mixed signals. Like I said, he should have talked this over with her before them trying anything anally again, but I can see why this happened and when you're drunk it's possible to downplay concerns or rationalize things you might not otherwise. I've seen it too many times over the years for that not to be a factor. That doesn't make him right, it's just part of the explanation for why things may have gone this way.

 

The finger felt good, the penetration didnt.

 

This isnt a case of "it just hurt her, I will try again and ease her into it". This is a case of "Your penis in my rectum is a traumatic experience" and she told him why. She told him she was sexually abused and that sensation brought back those thoughts. I dont see the mixed signal there.

[Taikero]

The finger felt good, the penetration didnt.

 

This isnt a case of "it just hurt her, I will try again and ease her into it". This is a case of "Your penis in my rectum is a traumatic experience" and she told him why. She told him she was sexually abused and that sensation brought back those thoughts. I dont see the mixed signal there.

 

Maybe he thought she'd warm to the idea or work through her past, or that this was a one time thing, or that maybe she was okay with it as long as it didn't bring up those memories. I would believe this especially if he personally hasn't been through a traumatic experience. That's something pretty hard to understand from an outside perspective.

 

Granted, him asking first wouldn't have gotten him in this predicament, but it's not like he can take it back now.

[Puckdog27]

Maybe he thought she'd warm to the idea or work through her past, or that this was a one time thing, or that maybe she was okay with it as long as it didn't bring up those memories. I would believe this especially if he personally hasn't been through a traumatic experience. That's something pretty hard to understand from an outside perspective.

 

Granted, him asking first wouldn't have gotten him in this predicament, but it's not like he can take it back now.

 

Im not trying to argue with you, so I hope it doesnt appear that way.

 

The fact is, anyone who is mature enough to have sex should be mature enough to realize the fall out of childhood sexual abuse, whether he has been through it himself or not.

 

There is nothing you can say that will justify his behaviour as an accident for me, and I hope the OP feels the same.

 

To me this is someone who takes what he wants.

[Taikero]

Im not trying to argue with you, so I hope it doesnt appear that way.

 

The fact is, anyone who is mature enough to have sex should be mature enough to realize the fall out of childhood sexual abuse, whether he has been through it himself or not.

 

There is nothing you can say that will justify his behaviour as an accident for me, and I hope the OP feels the same.

 

To me this is someone who takes what he wants.

 

It could be that way, but...I don't know, there seems to be a lot of occasion here for misunderstanding to happen. They were "very drunk" at the wedding when this initially happened, and they had been drinking again the second time. This isn't an excuse to bring pain or harm to your partner, but I believe that not having a serious conversation about this issue while sober is probably the biggest reason why this whole situation came up. The mind plays tricks on us easily enough, and when drunk it is easy to forget, downplay, or misinterpret things.

 

I also believe that since he stopped immediately and was caring the first time around (not sure how things played out exactly the second time other than her becoming very angry), I don't think this guy is just some completely selfish ass. I think there was some regrettable miscommunication and I feel it would be a shame to lose an entire relationship based on that.

[HouseKitten]

The fact is, anyone who is mature enough to have sex should be mature enough to realize the fall out of childhood sexual abuse, whether he has been through it himself or not.

 

To be fair, maturity has never been a prerequisite for sex. In an ideal world maybe everyone engaging in sexual intercourse would be mature, sensitive and fully educated on all areas for potential concern, but they don't teach 'sexual abuse and how to deal with it' in any school I've heard of.

[OpentoLife]

I think given him the benefit of the doubt was fine the first time....BUT..after seeing how you reacted to the first time, then having all the facts about your history of abuse, this guy stepped WAY over the line the second time.... No one who cares about their partner would inflict that kind of emotional trauma on them a second time.

 

Drinking is not an excuse. He had the facts. Im sure he wasnt too drunk to forget your first reaction.

 

I agree 100% with this. The first time, it's understandable. You even said that you liked having his fingers there, so he obviously thought you were into anal as well. Once you said "No, I don't want that" and told him your past, he should've respected that and it should NOT have happened again. Drinking is not an excuse for ANYTHING. Don't let him tell you otherwise.

[Puckdog27]

 

I also believe that since he stopped immediately and was caring the first time around (not sure how things played out exactly the second time other than her becoming very angry), I don't think this guy is just some completely selfish ass. I think there was some regrettable miscommunication and I feel it would be a shame to lose an entire relationship based on that.

 

Im pretty sure if you entered someone anally and they screamed NO NO NO and then told you they had been molested, you would get the picture loud and clear that anal is off the table. I just dont see how that kinda reaction could result in miscommunication.

 

Yes he was caring, yet he went ahead and did it AGAIN. Is she supposed to assume it wont be miscommunicated a second time and everytime they have sex be paranoid that it will happenen a 3rd time???

[PhilliesFan001]

As a victim of childhood abuse myself I can completely relate to what you're feeling. Yes, he absolutely crossed the line. The first time has to be forgiven because he didn't know better and he did stop.

 

The second time..well, it's tough to say. What he did was harmful to you, no doubt. The thing is, if he hasn't experienced this kind of trauma himself, he may find it hard to understand the connection for you between anal and the abuse you suffered. Especially because drinking was involved, and because you admit you enjoyed the way his fingers felt at first, he could just be an idiot in this situation and completely misunderstand what you're feeling.

 

I didn't tell him I never wanted to do that because I felt like it was obvious.

 

He may not realize that certain sexual acts sometimes need to be off the table when childhood abuse is involved. All I mean is, maybe he doesn't understand that the anal sex is a trigger for you - he may just be thinking that sex in general may freak you out sometimes, not specific acts.

 

If everything else in the relationship is good, I would give him another chance. He does sound like he genuinely cares and feels bad. I don't think he was being a selfish jerk, I think that his poor understanding of your trauma and the aftermath, coupled with being intoxicated and confused about your feelings, led to what happened.

 

If you do decide to give him another shot, you need to sit him down, sober, and explain to him that the abuse has had an enormous effect on you and that he needs to be sensitive to it. Tell him in no uncertain terms that anal sex is NOT okay with you, EVER, drunk or sober, and tell him if any other sexual acts make you feel the same way. He needs to know your specific boundaries before he crosses them in the heat of the moment.

 

If he crosses the line again after this, dump him because he'll never get it.

[tiredofvampires]

I agree with IAG, who is the only one on this thread who brought up this point:

 

Last, I think you need to look at your drinking. Drinking and sex for you quite early in a relationship - why are you doing that? Is that a recreation for you in itself, setting the stage and making yourself vulnerable for a reason you haven't admitted to yourself? Regardless, it doesn't seem healthy for you - at the stage you are in your life - to be drinking to excess so that you are not in full control of what you are doing sexually. You need to take the reigns actively when it comes to your sex life and relationship, not be letting slack and chaos enter with drinking.

 

I really couldn't have said it better. You leave yourself open to not being in full control of the situation sexually when you're drunk, and not being in control re-creates your childhood trauma. Drinking lowers inhibitions, and so it's too easy for you to let a situation go too far before you realize it's crossed a line. That much I do believe you should look into seriously and take accountability for.

 

Having said that:

 

Im pretty sure if you entered someone anally and they screamed NO NO NO and then told you they had been molested, you would get the picture loud and clear that anal is off the table. I just dont see how that kinda reaction could result in miscommunication.

 

Yes he was caring, yet he went ahead and did it AGAIN. Is she supposed to assume it wont be miscommunicated a second time and everytime they have sex be paranoid that it will happenen a 3rd time???

 

I agree with everything Puckdog has said. It's really a no-brainer. It's not even about "maturity". It's common sense. If my partner was so utterly idiotic that he could not find his way to "erring on the side of safety" after I screamed after a sexual act and told him I had been molested, if he wasn't branded into sobriety from that forevermore until further word from me, if his memory of his apologies were so short-lived and he was under the impression that between that first incident and the second, my memories had been wiped clean and I was now raring to turn over a new leaf, he's just not a sharp enough knife in the box for me. Sorry. You'd have to be beyond dense. Booze or no booze. You don't have to be a Ph.D. in psychology, have experience of abuse yourself, or even work hard to conceive of the impact of abuse if you're even a slightly sensitive individual.

 

I would suggest that you consider his actions in light of all the rest about the relationship, OP, except that I think this indicates a desire for a type of sexual act to a degree that you will always feel pressured. Even if he resists pushing it on you, it seems from what you've said that he has a fixation with this particular act that's not going away, and this will become a sexual point of sexual tension, and even guilt for you, knowing that he's giving up something he's clearly wanting to the extent that he's harmed you. It's like he'd always be hoping and waiting with bated breath that you'll "come around" eventually on this, and angling to try. That's just not a situation I'd want to stay in.

[deardeer]

This was my thinking when deciding to end the relationship. I spoke with him last night and explained my reasoning. He was extremely apologetic, said it would never happen again, and stated that he could live without this type of sex. In my mind though, his actions indicate otherwise and I feel like I can no longer trust him. At the worst, he is someone who knowingly tried to force an unwanted sex act on an abuse survivor, at the best he is shockingly insensitive and selfish.

 

That said, I do need to take responsibility for drinking too much. If anything, that is what I'm taking away from this whole unfortunate incident.

[OpentoLife]

 

That said, I do need to take responsibility for drinking too much. If anything, that is what I'm taking away from this whole unfortunate incident.

 

That is great! We can always learn from our experiences and it appears you are doing just that. That's wonderful.

[Taikero]

I think it's unfortunate you ended things. I still believe this was a result of poor communication from both sides of the table and you two could have moved past this and become closer and more understanding of each other because of it.

 

However, because you have done this and ended your relationship with him, I recommend curbing your drinking in the early stages of new relationships as well as making sure you bring up your childhood abuse early in your sexual life with a partner since this obviously bothers you enough you dumped a guy because he misunderstood (while under the influence of a substance that affects the brain and cognitive reasoning) just how much this has affected you.

 

Be clear, be upfront, and have these conversations sober, and this probably won't happen again.

[diamond78]

I think it's unfortunate you ended things. I still believe this was a result of poor communication from both sides of the table and you two could have moved past this and become closer and more understanding of each other because of it.

 

However, because you have done this and ended your relationship with him, I recommend curbing your drinking in the early stages of new relationships as well as making sure you bring up your childhood abuse early in your sexual life with a partner since this obviously bothers you enough you dumped a guy because he misunderstood (while under the influence of a substance that affects the brain and cognitive reasoning) just how much this has affected you.

 

Be clear, be upfront, and have these conversations sober, and this probably won't happen again.

 

 

I don't know how screaming "no, no, no" and crying can't be anymore clear than it is...even while intoxicated. TOV's post explained it pretty well.

 

If she no longer feels safe and comfortable with her boyfriend, then ending it now is the right decision for her.

[Puckdog27]

I don't know how screaming "no, no, no" and crying can't be anymore clear than it is...even while intoxicated. TOV's post explained it pretty well.

 

I agree, and this is the part that has baffled me....how it could get any clearer than that this was not something she ever wanted.

[Scott12]

This was my thinking when deciding to end the relationship. I spoke with him last night and explained my reasoning. He was extremely apologetic, said it would never happen again, and stated that he could live without this type of sex. In my mind though, his actions indicate otherwise and I feel like I can no longer trust him. At the worst, he is someone who knowingly tried to force an unwanted sex act on an abuse survivor, at the best he is shockingly insensitive and selfish.

 

Deardeer,

 

There is one thing I'd like to ask for clarification about. The first time, you and he actually engaged in anal sex for a brief period of time, correct? The second time you stated that he "tried" to have anal sex with you again. Could you clarify exactly what you mean by "tried"?

 

Basically I'm wondering if during the second time he actually tried to penetrate you with his penis, or, if instead he engaged in more of the anal play with his fingers that you had enjoyed the first time around.

 

Also, did you have the discussion about your abuse while both of you were drunk?

 

If you can no longer trust him, then you can no longer trust him and you should end it because you don't feel comfortable being sexual with him, but I personally don't think that he stepped over the line. Since you have been in therapy for a good while, I was wondering if your therapist had discussed with you the different definitions of "consent" that exist between an abuse survivor and someone who hasn't experienced sexual abuse. I went through counseling with my ex-wife regarding the sexual abuse and rape she experienced before we met and I can unequivocally say that most people who have not experienced sexual abuse cannot comprehend the much more stringent definition of "consent" that an abuse survivor has.

 

Without trying to place blame on you, I'd first suggest you discuss this incident with your counselor if you haven't already, and I would then suggest that in the future, any partners you have should be made aware of the abuse you experienced before you engage in sexual activities with them. Not only that, they should become partners in your healing process and you should direct them toward resources that will help them understand this process. The most important thing I learned during that counseling is that the person who was abused is not the only person affected by the abuse, but also the partner of the person who was abused, because they have to adjust to a "new normal" on top of the hurt and grief they experience for knowing this happened to their loved one.

 

I wish the best of luck to you.

 

Scott

[Taikero]

I agree, and this is the part that has baffled me....how it could get any clearer than that this was not something she ever wanted.

 

It's because I don't think for this guy it was clear to him. I think that it's easy to see the "I screamed and said 'no no no!'" and then focus on that, but I feel there was far more at play here than that, and obviously things were NOT clear enough for this guy because he misunderstood things and thought she might still be open to anal sex.

 

This doesn't mean the guy is dense, uncaring, or oblivious even. There are different levels of abuse, different stages people are in with their recovery and management of the past, and I am still firmly of the belief that in this particular case, both individuals made large mistakes in their communication. He should have asked her before trying anal sex with her again, and she should have sat him down sober and told him in no uncertain terms after the first incident exactly what she needed from him in order for her to feel comfortable and for the memories not to come back to the surface during sex together.

 

Blaming one side or the other isn't right here. This was a failure from both sides, and now a relationship that was apparently good otherwise is down the drain all because of a misunderstanding, a little booze, and not talking things over, both right after the first incident and most especially after the second incident where it was obvious miscommunication had occurred. It's sad and very much a shame in my eyes.

[Puckdog27]

Blaming one side or the other isn't right here. This was a failure from both sides, and now a relationship that was apparently good otherwise is down the drain all because of a misunderstanding, a little booze, and not talking things over. It's sad and very much a shame in my eyes.

 

No....its over because after she told him anal sex brought back memories of childhood molestation, and still he went and did it again.

[lavenderdove]

>'you dumped a guy because he misunderstood '

 

She didn't dump a guy who 'misunderstood', she dumped a guy who seriously and selfishly miscalculated what he could get away with.

 

He was extremely aware of both her physical and emotional discomfort at the penetration, and they had just had an emotional talk about her abuse, then he goes for it again anyway.

 

I agree that he was being extremely insensitive, and was showing his true colors, that even if he knows something upsets her, if he wants to do it, he feels entitled to do it or at least try it and hope she goes along with it.

 

The sad thing is that when many abuse survivors share their stories, some people who don't understand it take it as the person is overreacting or should be 'over it' by now and rather than being truly understanding, they pay lip service to it, then try in subtle ways to dominate the abuse victim to try to prove them they were overreacting or should just 'get over it'. This is a very common response among people who hear about the abuse, but a totally WRONG one.

 

And people who have been abused can attract other abusers because of their fear and timidity. I find it absolutely mind boggling that someone would hear a story of childhood abuse, then within a few days say to themselves, 'i'm gonna get me some of that action too' and try to repeat what the abuser did to the victim.

 

Sorry, i don't think there's a good enough excuse to explain away what he did. Most sensitive/non-abusers would never in a million years try that on her after she told her story of abuse.

[diamond78]

It's because I don't think for this guy it was clear to him. I think that it's easy to see the "I screamed and said 'no no no!'" and then focus on that, but I feel there was far more at play here than that, and obviously things were NOT clear enough for this guy because he misunderstood things and thought she might still be open to anal sex.

 

This doesn't mean the guy is dense, uncaring, or oblivious even.

 

So, what would you take away from a sexual experience where your partner screamed "no, no, no"..?? You're telling me that a person with a sound mind wouldn't be able to decipher that this was something their partner didn't want?

 

And the fact that she was abused just compounds this...but even if you were to take away that fact, he would still have over-stepped the line when it was made verbally clear that she was not comfortable with this sexual act the first time he tried.

 

He didn't misunderstand that she wasn't happy with what happened. Nor did he misunderstand the notion that she was abused. Her reaction and explanation is more than enough to figure that out...

 

What he did do was try to take the matter into his own hands and get her to hopefully enjoy an act he himself is interested in....The problem here is his selfish way of thinking. Not miscommunication...

[tiredofvampires]

There are some situations where "clarification" is not really needed in my opinion, to go on a very strong interpretation of events.

 

If you get something to eat and say to a friend, "Here, try this, it's delicious!" and the person gives it a tentative sniff, then takes a small bite and tosses the dish back to you, wretching and gagging, turning beet red and says, "Ughghghggh!!! How can you EAT that??! That's NASTY!!!" what is the likelihood you're going to want to offer that to them again, if you have any brains in your head? (in fact, might it not become a memorable incident in your history together that it happened?)

 

Much less, would you sneak that food onto their plate when they were unaware and looking the other way, to see if THIS TIME, when they tasted it, they'd say, "Mmmmm!! What is this? OH! Is this that thing I tried before? You're right!! It IS delicious!"

 

When someone screams "no no no" and breaks down, saying they were abused as a child, I don't believe, "so therefore, please don't try to do that again" is necessary to get the point accross. It is completely implied in the response.

 

If it was something subtle, like "don't touch my ears at all -- I know I said don't breathe in my ear last time, but this time I'm telling you not to touch my ears at ALL", then I'd say yeah, that needed some clarification. But this is very straightforward penis-in-place-you-don't-usually-stick-it; it's anal sex, which as was pointed out, is already something where two people usually confer on beforehand, even when abuse isn't even in the picture.

 

Sometimes, a horrified scream all by itself = NOT GOOD, NO. In the bedroom, I'd jump to that conclusion without further need for "communication" on the matter.

[deardeer]

Thank you! I would like to clarify, it is not like I simply said "no". I screamed it repeatedly and then proceeded to cry hysterically for over an hour, struggling with the flashback. I was not trying to be dramatic, but imagine reliving the most horrible event of your life in an extremely vulnerable way and in a manner which, illogically, makes you feel that a person you care for is causing you that pain. It was very confusing, scary, and humiliating. I don't blame him for the initial attempt, as I WAS sending mixed signals, but it was VERY clear that I was traumatized. I should not have had so much to drink, either time, but he should have respected my boundaries.

[Sparkly Eyes]

Oh please, It's honestly hard to believe how you guys cover for him. She screamed, cried and talked about her abuse. Ok, I accept the guy isn't a mind reader, but is he stupid?! She didn't miscommunicate AT ALL. If anything, I think her reaction was the ultimate form of saying "NO".

 

I think if she doesn't dump him for neglecting her boundaries, she should dump him for lack of common sense and intelligence, in case he really thought she might actually like anal sex again!

[Puckdog27]

Thank you! I would like to clarify, it is not like I simply said "no". I screamed it repeatedly and then proceeded to cry hysterically for over an hour, struggling with the flashback. I was not trying to be dramatic, but imagine reliving the most horrible event of your life in an extremely vulnerable way and in a manner which, illogically, makes you feel that a person you care for is causing you that pain. It was very confusing, scary, and humiliating. I don't blame him for the initial attempt, as I WAS sending mixed signals, but it was VERY clear that I was traumatized. I should not have had so much to drink, either time, but he should have respected my boundaries.

 

Oh....well yeah, I wouldnt have understood that this was a problem either.. ;-)

[OpentoLife]

it is not like I simply said "no". I screamed it repeatedly and then proceeded to cry hysterically for over an hour

 

Okay, so now who wants to defend this guys' actions for the SECOND incident??? Unless during that second time she said "okay, let's try anal" (which she obviously didn't say) he was 100% completely wrong for doing that the second time. Like she said, she was sending mixed signals the first time, but after hearing the woman you're with scream "NO" and cry for an hour after you attempt to do it the first time, there should NEVER be another attempt unless she blatantly asks.