Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 There is a difference between obeying some arbitrary rules written by a hack or hacks trying to make a fast buck in order to essentially trap someone into marrying you who otherwise would not if he knew who you really are and setting boundaries or standards for yourself. The first is dishonest and manipulative the second is honest and straightforward. And those books, IMO, are all about the first because they teach women to be manipulative. And that is really childish and is no basis for a real relationship. There are similar books for men that are just as bad. I wholeheartedly agree with you here. I always thought it was more of a womans thing to obsess about this kind of thing; maybe because I had never discussed it with male friends but I was shocked at some of the stuff I've seen on threads here and I guarantee you that no matter how into a guy I was there is no way that I would pass some of the weird tests they've got going for keeping interest levels above 50% or whatever it is they're up to. I really don't know how to explain to you what coming on these threads is like, trying to listen to what guys are saying and trying to reconcile it with everything you've ever been told in the "out there world". Women are (largely unconsciously I think) taught to be manipulative; because that was how we survived when we had no rights and upon marriage our husbands owned all of our property and our children. It's a deeply ingrained survival instinct I think; not entirely unlike Stockholm syndrome in a way. Society is changing rapidly and yet we still haven't changed so many of our basic attitudes. You may have embraced the notion of a woman doing things that were traditionally male roles but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is there yet. And I unfortunately have to fit into this one. I believe that when you deny gays the right to marriage that you are denying them the constitutional right to marry, doesn't matter what the gender - to me the right to marry is the right to marry. But a huge proportion of this world would take a diametrically opposing view to that. We are getting there slowly over time but that's what makes it hard; trying to sort out who is okay with this, who isn't. I would love to live in a society whereby I KNEW for a fact what the rules were but I don't. So I just have to decide what's okay with me and go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andromeda99 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Some things are just common sense and shouldn't take a book to figure out. If something is common sense then there should be no problem with putting it on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Habs Go Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 If something is common sense then there should be no problem with putting it on paper. Those books teach women to manipulate, like DN said. It's not rocket science to figure out if someone isn't into you. No one's questioning the information itself in the books, but rather how it's presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny15 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 It should be obvious to anyone at anytime. If someone acts like they don't want to be around you, they probably don't want to be around you. You can always wonder or know outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddincup Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I just wanted to comment that sometimes things that are obvious to others are not so obvious to ourselves. That's why people come to sites like this and ask for advice. That's why people buy books that offer advice. I never understood why the majority of people on a site that offers relationship advice are so against books that offer relationship advice. Obviously people should take in all the advice they get and weigh it against their own intuition but that is the case for friends, books and ENA posters too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I just wanted to comment that sometimes things that are obvious to others are not so obvious to ourselves. That's why people come to sites like this and ask for advice. That's why people buy books that offer advice. I never understood why the majority of people on a site that offers relationship advice are so against books that offer relationship advice. Obviously people should take in all the advice they get and weigh it against their own intuition but that is the case for friends, books and ENA posters too. What she said. And I know that when I was younger and I asked friends of mine advice about a guy I really liked they would always put a positive spin on it: he's shy, he's scared, he thinks you're too good for him. Blah bah blah. Anything to avoid balls out saying something that would hurt my feelings. Truth of it was that he just wasn't bothered enough about me to do anything and instead of having someone say to me that chemistry and attraction are out of our control; so move on unless he gives you something to stick around for I ended up bending over backwards for someone who didn't want it, but sometimes took it because it was easy. Being able to say to myself that if I have made my feelings clear to a guy and he really wants to be with me that he will do what it takes to make it happen is hugely liberating. I don't have to stress or worry or think "Should I do this? or that?" because if he's feeling it he's gonna have to make a move. One of the things I have a huge problem with and it's a pretty common theme on these threads is guys telling women looking for advice on whether there are signs of mutual attraction to "grow up and go after a guy if you want him" No-one should have to "go after" anyone. It should be mutual and that's where the point is being missed. I've done my part; he isn't doing his therefore it's not mutual. Now why would I have to ask someone to "know" that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DN Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Being able to say to myself that if I have made my feelings clear to a guy and he really wants to be with me that he will do what it takes to make it happen is hugely liberating. How do you make your feelings clear? What do you say or do to accomplish that? Remember that the prime responsibility in communication rests with the person trying to send and if it isn't being received properly that is usually because the message isn't clear. True equality would be women accepting that the same things apply to them as to men i.e. if you really want to be with a man - you will do what it takes to make it happen. Anything less than that, despite so called 'gender roles', is not equality but a form of passivity. Bottom line: if the message is not getting through - you have not done your part at all and it may be that you have to step up to the plate and go for it. If you have the courage to do that then you will be equal. Blaming the man is simply a cop-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 And I have made myself clear; if I made myself any clearer I would be practically stalking the guy. I have put myself out there, both by things I have said and done and he simply isn't interested. He likes the attention but he simply isn't sufficiently attracted to me to want things to go any further. So I think that I can absolve myself from feeling that I have been passive or unclear in this instance. Also I find it interesting that if a guy was repeatedly trying to get a womans attention and she was showing no interest then his behaviour would be termed "Creepy"; but if I show someone that I find them attractive and they aren't interested then it's my fault because I obviously "didn't do it properly?" I do believe in equality - I believe that guys have just as much right as we do not to be harassed for attention by people that cannot accept that they are not interested in them in that sense. This thought does not make me happy, it means that I'm not going to get to know someone that I really like in the way that I would wish but at least I feel good about the fact that I'm not going to go down the bunny boiler route. I have to live in my life and it's very easy to say "just do this" but I honestly feel that after everything I have done to demonstrate my feelings refusing to accept that he is not interested would actually make me question my boundaries and my mental health. And nowhere have I said or implied that the man is to blame; I have simply stated that attraction is beyond our control and there is nothing that can be done about that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shes2smart Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 I'd like to point out that this book has been kicking around for 14 years, is still in print, and can still generate this much discussion. Doesn't mean that its content is right or good or realistic or workable....but it does mean that the authors managed to find something that strikes a nerve with people and package it in such a way that it still sells 14 years later. Maybe I'm a little odd, but I generally like to read the occasional book that I don't agree with or that pisses me off or challenges me. Why? Because I'd rather read something that makes me feel or think than something that I will forget within 5 minutes of shutting the book because it failed to connect with or inspire me on any level whatsoever. I do not agree with much of what these particular authors put forth. In fact, according to "the rules," I did everything "wrong" when I met my husband. But --- I did get that one little useful nugget from that book (the concept of "NEXT!") that, in part, led to me adopting behaviors that made me single & available when I crossed paths with my husband....because I wasn't hung up still trying to impress some man who wasn't interested in me at all. I tend to believe that we can learn something from everything and every person that crosses our path in this lifetime. They may not be lessons we necessarily want or lessons we'd purposely seek out, but there's always something to be learned. Even if it's something like figuring out who we don't want to be. Sometimes in order to learn who you ARE....you have figure out who you ARE NOT....or to realize what we want, we first have to have something we DON'T want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilroy Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 "Better that you never see him again than you visit him first or even meet him halfway". It also says "If you travel to see him before he's made at least three trips to see you he won't think you're special." If I find out that the girl I am dating is following these type of rules then I wouldn't date her any more. I would rather be with a girl that can think for herself and does not withhold on putting in effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilroy Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 The author may not be 100% right in every case but when you're faced with someone for whom you have feelings developing doing the kind of things he details: ie only calling when drunk or never really committing to being with you and randomly disappearing/reappearing then it really is liberating to just be able to say "he's just not that into me" and start moving on. Wow, you need a book to realize that? It is just common sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Wow, you need a book to realize that? It is just common sense... You'd think wouldn't you? But these threads are full of seemingly intelligent people asking seemingly obvious questions so I'm thinking that it's easy to overlook the obvious when you are in a situation whereby you have a choice between continuing to allow someone you're invested in emotionally to walk all over you or else watch them walk away. You can't apply logic to an emotional decision. Which is why I'm such a big fan of "He's just not that into you" because it helps you to to separate your feelings from being "There is something wrong with me and if I fix it he'll want to be with me" to "He's just not that into you; and there's nothing you can do about that so move on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 If you replace the word "Husband" in the bolded part with my last exes (who, even though it didn't work out and was my longest relationship, treated me the best out of everyone I have ever been with) you would be describing what happened to me after I read "He's just not that into you". Because bottom line is if he's not treating you properly, if he's not saying "I want to make sure that everyone knows you're my girlfriend" or if he's generally messing you about then he really isn't as interested in you as you deserve him to be. And this goes for women too; I know I wouldn't jerk around a guy I really liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilroy Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 You'd think wouldn't you? But these threads are full of seemingly intelligent people asking seemingly obvious questions so I'm thinking that it's easy to overlook the obvious when you are in a situation whereby you have a choice between continuing to allow someone you're invested in emotionally to walk all over you or else watch them walk away. You can't apply logic to an emotional decision. Which is why I'm such a big fan of "He's just not that into you" because it helps you to to separate your feelings from being "There is something wrong with me and if I fix it he'll want to be with me" to "He's just not that into you; and there's nothing you can do about that so move on" Yes, I agree. It is easy to figure out what is going on when you are NOT involved in the situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Yes, I agree. It is easy to figure out what is going on when you are NOT involved in the situation... Which is so sad as I'm actually quite bright but when it comes to these things it's like someone's turned down the dimmer switch on my brain lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilroy Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Which is so sad as I'm actually quite bright but when it comes to these things it's like someone's turned down the dimmer switch on my brain lol Like you said when we are in an emotional state it is difficult to think straight. Looking back I have actually been in a situation where I had no clue whether the girl liked me or not. At that time I convinced myself that she liked me but now looking back I am amazed how I could have been so clueless! You know how they say "In hindsight it is always 20/20" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Like you said when we are in an emotional state it is difficult to think straight. Looking back I have actually been in a situation where I had no clue whether the girl liked me or not. At that time I convinced myself that she liked me but now looking back I am amazed how I could have been so clueless! You know how they say "In hindsight it is always 20/20" Aww *hugs* if it's any comfort I'm in the same situation with a guy I've liked on and off since my last relationship ended a year ago. I've had enough of it so it's moving on time It may not be what I wanted but at least my brain will be largely filled with peace and quiet now. One of the real benefits of being single lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilroy Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Aww *hugs* if it's any comfort I'm in the same situation with a guy I've liked on and off since my last relationship ended a year ago. I've had enough of it so it's moving on time It may not be what I wanted but at least my brain will be largely filled with peace and quiet now. One of the real benefits of being single lol Yep, one of the things that I learnt as a lesson out of that experience was that if a girl truly liked me she will "give" and not just "take". I realized that I was only giving and not receiving much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Yep, one of the things that I learnt as a lesson out of that experience was that if a girl truly liked me she will "give" and not just "take". I realized that I was only giving and not receiving much. Whenever I'm feeling down about my past 'failures' at least I know that I learned something from them. Hopefully the lessons we learn will help us to end up in happier relationships and be/be with nicer people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalibuOne Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 I very much enjoyed reading this thread. Especially the exchange between Brigadoon and Gilroy. It's just so true. What seems obvious and common sense to someone on the outside looking in, is often invisible to the person involved in the situation. I swear, there's some kind of chemical/endorphin or something in our bodies that make us ignore what our brains would clearly see if not for the fact that our circuits are shorted somehow. I read relationship books. I read advice on this forum. I talk with my friends and family. I don't view any as the end-all/be all of sources of advice, but as sources of more information to pour into the hopper for me to draw on to make my own decisions. I know I can't envision every scenario, every potential outcome, each possible approach to an issue on my own (I'm human, I miss stuff that's obvious to others), so I seek input from other sources. Common sense is taking what nuggets you feel apply to your own situation, not blindly following someone else's instructions. Just my two cents. Interesting thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted June 27, 2010 Share Posted June 27, 2010 Yes, that is why I liked having my own personal guidelines that I could remind myself of when I was in that "smitten" phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalibuOne Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Yes, that is why I liked having my own personal guidelines that I could remind myself of when I was in that "smitten" phase. Ah yes, the smitten phase. That's where I need to improve. Always something new to learn from every relationship - even if the lessons are hard ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigadoon Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Ah yes, the smitten phase. That's where I need to improve. Always something new to learn from every relationship - even if the lessons are hard ones. Yup; that's the one. It's nailed me a few times too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvstruk Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Does this stupid book teach women to be manipulative only in the early stages of a relationship, or does it preach disingenuousness and deception throughout the relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvstruk Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Does this stupid book teach women to be manipulative only in the early stages of a relationship, or does it preach disingenuousness and deception throughout the relationship? Serious question. Can anybody who has read it let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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