I don't get women and I'm fed up...again.

[Seymore]

The bolded is exactly what I was thinking, immediately after she said that: I'm no good to date, but I'm dandy as your errand boy? Part of me wanted to tell her to shove it right there, and judging by past experiences with people as a whole, I can see her hitting me up for "favors" after that. Hell no I won't play into that - you've gotta give to get back, as they say. The Subway was literally right next to the pharmacy, so I would've had a rough time explaining why I could go to one place but not the other. I wasn't about to go to yet another Subway or call J's work to see if she wanted anything else, though. She messed up on what she asked for, she got her money back. I'm not a friggin' catering service.

 

I'm definitely not discussing things about one girl to one of her friends anymore either, no matter how well I know either of them. I'm not upset with T, she's still a sweetheart, it's just the way women work, I suppose.

 

I really do appreciate all the help, everyone. I wish this could've worked out better but you live and learn, I guess.

[Curious_Girl]

I wish this could've worked out better but you live and learn, I guess.

 

I think it did work out well, in the sense that it seems you've learned from it. Now you'll take what you learned from this, and what everyone said here, and you'll use what's right for you. No one has all the answers - we just wish we did!!

 

I don't think this was about you, btw. I think she's just really young and doesn't know what she wants. She may be playing games intentionally, but 20 y/o often do it unintentionally, too.

 

CG

[oldenoughtoknow]

no binary questions, and move towards declarative statements.

 

Again, that would royally tick me off. I don't know if she has a strong personality, but if she does...that could easily backfire.

 

Feel free to reel her in - at will.

 

Nice, Rich, really respectful.

 

Curious Girl, I think we agreed earlier that confidence is very attractive. My point (and I think TouchNastY's as well) is that you don't ask a question that can be easily deflected or turned down. You need to be confident and direct.

 

Barney Fife would ask for a date, squirming around, looking down at the floor, saying "Gee, uh, I think you're real pretty, uh, do you think, uh, would you be interested, uh, I mean, uh, I don't want to be too forward and all because I think you're about the best person in the world, uh, would you like to maybe go out with me?" I don't even think that works in Mayberry anymore.

 

A guy with confidence would say something that isn't as easily turned down, like "I really enjoy talking with you. I'd like to take you to _____. Give me your number and we can arrange our schedules." This shows confidence. It shows forethought - you've obviously been thinking about her and enjoying her company - this isn't just another "pickup" - very positive stuff. It's not so easily turned down. Women like to test guys to see what they're made of - they want to see if you have some confidence, some fortitude, something that shows you know what you want. Direct, declarative statements give that impression. I'm certainly not suggesting "hey, give me your number."

 

As far as the other comment...well, I never was a cheerleader. Guys have to make the first move probably 80% to 90% of the time, and facing rejection isn't an easy task. I was just trying to give Seymore the right mindset to ensure success and/or diminish the sting. It had nothing to do with disrespecting J. It's how guys talk to each other.

 

Seymore, I think you handled this really well, and also learned a few things. Good luck will follow.

[alli]

Curious Girl, I think we agreed earlier that confidence is very attractive. My point (and I think TouchNastY's as well) is that you don't ask a question that can be easily deflected or turned down. You need to be confident and direct.

 

I see your point about confidence, Rich. I totally agree that confidence is definitely attractive. However, I agree with Curious Girl on this one. Being confident is one thing, bossing me around & telling me what & when I will be doing something is a whole other thing. him: "We are going out on friday night". me: "Oh are we? Because last time I checked, making such a statement would require agreement on my part".

 

If some guy that I already liked did that, I might let it slide.. once. Maybe. But if I was the least bit iffy on whether or not I liked the guy, him doing that would seal the deal with a big 'ol "reject" sign on it. It just wouldn't sit well with me & makes him seem too bossy & over-confident

 

Maybe not all women would take offense to it, but I know it wouldn't sit well with me! Better to just stick to protruding confidence by standing up straight, looking the girl in the eyes, speaking in an audible, clear tone & smiling.

 

And I would not ask this girl out anymore. You already put the offer out there, any more tries at asking her out will feel about as good as smashing your hand with a hammer repeatedly. If she wanted to she would have suggested a time that works for her.

[Seymore]

Thanks, alli (and everyone else!). That's what felt weird about it yesterday. I had every intention of walking in there and saying "So when are you taking me out for my birthday?", but then I just didn't feel like that was me. I can be cocky, but after I've heard no twice, it just felt like one more go at it would say "I don't get what 'no' means", and that's not me...not only do I know that, but everyone but J who works there knows me and knows that. I tossed it out there, tried to make it clear, and left it up to her to decide. If it's a "no", her loss. I'm a great guy, and I'm convinced that if she gave me a fair chance and got to know me, she wouldn't want to let go. But oh well. I do know she wasn't BS'ing about having no time - working 3 jobs and going to school doesn't leave a person much time for anything, but whatever.

 

And no way am I going to ask her out again. However, if she happens to start hitting me up for favors after me going to get her dinner last night (which I do regret), I might say something to the tune of "I'm not good enough to date, but I'm good enough to fetch your food?", but who knows.

[alli]

It kind of seems like she likes you as a friend, and she likes the attention you give her, but she doesn't like you enough in that way to go on a date with her. If you can accept just friendship with her & stop thinking about her intentions & what exactly she meant when she did x,y or z, then by all means continue hanging out at that shop with your friends. But, lets say you know right now that there is zero chance that you will go on a date with her or that she would change her mind. Would you still be hanging around the coffee shop? Or would you rather get past it & hang out there less & focus on meeting some other women?

 

I'd just hate for you to waste your time & energy focusing on someone who won't date you. But at the same time, I don't want to tell you to stop hanging out with her & your friends there if you enjoy being there.

[TouchNastY]

It's one of those things that, sitting at our computers and mulling it over in our heads, sound like one thing, but put into action, happen differently than imagined. [i could likely lay that one on you before you realized it; meaning, it would be so casual, that you'd respond honestly...which is the point.] Delivery is paramount, of course, and again, reading words on a screen and filling the body language, tenor, and rapport blanks ourselves (you're not going to be asking yourself out, afterall) is somewhat...lacking. You say you'd be more partial if you were attracted to him...which is implicit; this would only occur once the man has acknowledged your interest.

 

When a binary question is asked, the feelings are assessed, which then leads to the "should I be honest? tell a lie?" conflict, which eventually leads to hiding behind a "yes/no" answer, the latter of which will help the guy in no way assess his standing [what if she wants to, but blurts "no?" - lots of stories like this on here]. Of course, this all happens within a split second. It's better to circumvent the whole process by directly expressing interest, taking the lead, and creating a team rapport all in one. In my example, the main point of the line was to get her to disclose her interest level under the guise of asking her out. Not that, had she said yes, he wouldn't have taken her out. The point is to gauge the sincerity of a genuine response, not simply one hidden behind a "no"...and a statement has to be made to engender a non-binary response.

 

And of course, there are boundaries. I don't recall anyone suggesting hijacking someone's Friday night. Be aware of the juxtaposition: "We're getting ice cream!" has a more playful bent to it than "We are going out on Friday night," though both are means to the same end: engendering a genuine response from you to gauge your interest level. THIS is the main point, finding your interest level, not going on the date.

 

[Not to put you down, but being a woman does not make one adept at knowing how to relate romantically with them. There are many things that women themselves don't understand about how they operate. Much of this plays deeply to the limbic system.]

[Seymore]

I've been going to the coffee shop for the last 7 years. She's been working there for the last few months. I'm not focusing on her any more, but I'm definitely not going to stop going there. I'm not going to be a snot and blow her off, but I'm not going to give her that special attention she seems to want, is all. My purpose in life is not to satisfy another woman's ego

[TouchNastY]

Seymore:

 

I know what you're saying about "it's not me to do that." I think a better way to frame it is that it's not you...right now. As you said yourself, pushed far enough, you'd pull out the witty off-comment about not being her delivery boy. So why not up front? That's not saying to be outright obnoxious, but expressing one's feelings, even through wit, isn't being overbearing. Consider adoption of these techniques as changing your presentation, or your wrapping, as you're still the same man on the inside. If anything, it would be an interesting social experiment for you.

[Seymore]

I hear you, TouchNastY. The witty off-comment about not being her delivery boy SHOULD be me...but the "We're going out Friday night" isn't me. I used to be taken advantage of by most people I'd meet, at work, in relationships, etc. I was the textbook doormat, so to speak. Ever since not long before my last breakup, I'd grown tired of people walking all over me, so I started to tell people to shove their favor requests where the sun don't shine...in a far more friendly way, of course. I'd gotten sick of being walked over. My change in attitude lost me a few of my fair weather friends, and that's an accomplishment in my mind.

 

But this experience taught me that I'm still somewhat afraid to exert that attitude towards women I'm interested in. I learned that I have come somewhat far, as like I said, I didn't go hunting around for another Subway that had what J wanted, and I didn't offer to go somewhere else for her, both of which were definitely the old me. I tried, she screwed up and I said "tough s***". But even in me simply trying, I still tried to "satisfy" her, when I should have said "I ain't the one", as Ice Cube so eloquently put it

[galaxy71]

Great job with the flirting. You are ahead of a lot of guys who don't flirt with women. I think that you should have asked her out after a high in the conversatoin. When she is flirting back at you, you should have made your move. Whenever you talked to someone for an extended period of times, there are going to be peaks and valleys in the interactions. One minute, she was laughing like crazy. The next minute, she might be serious or distracted by something that is going on in your personal life.

 

I also think that you should have asked her out around some common interest that the two of you shared. Do you like dancing? Do you like going to bars? Do you like going to the museum? You could have talked about some place you like going to and than casually inviting her to tag along. With that said, I do not know if there are other women that you were flirting with outside of the woman mentioned in your original post. If you focus on one woman, you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself as every conversation might make it or break it.

[Curious_Girl]

A guy with confidence would say something that isn't as easily turned down, like "I really enjoy talking with you. I'd like to take you to _____. Give me your number and we can arrange our schedules." This shows confidence. It shows forethought - you've obviously been thinking about her and enjoying her company - this isn't just another "pickup" - very positive stuff. It's not so easily turned down. Women like to test guys to see what they're made of - they want to see if you have some confidence, some fortitude, something that shows you know what you want. Direct, declarative statements give that impression. I'm certainly not suggesting "hey, give me your number."

 

Alli pretty much said what I meant in her post. What you wrote here, though, is very different from the other post (can't remember if it was you or not) about "We are going to ____________ on Friday. I'll pick you up at 7." I would still prefer, "If you give me your number, we can arrange..." It would depend on the guy, though, and the situation.

 

I was just trying to give Seymore the right mindset to ensure success and/or diminish the sting. It had nothing to do with disrespecting J. It's how guys talk to each other.

 

That makes sense. It was the "at will" part - I didn't like the way it sounded like she didn't have a say in the matter. But maybe I am overly sensitive.

[Seymore]

I just focus on whatever woman/women I happen to have an interest in at the time. A couple of months ago it was another woman, and that wound up being an equally confusing situation (wrote about it before). I don't meet new people that often and I'm fine on my own, so the pressure isn't as huge as it would be on someone who simply HAS to find someone. My focusing is more on how the situation went down...I mean, if it's not J, then it's not J...but what frustrates me the most is these signals - everyone around, here AND people who actually see us interacting say "She's interested, she's interested", and then once I go for it - poof. Nope, guess she wasn't. But like someone else said - some girls just love the attention and don't seem to care if a guy takes the flirting the wrong way.

[Curious_Girl]

[Not to put you down, but being a woman does not make one adept at knowing how to relate romantically with them. There are many things that women themselves don't understand about how they operate. Much of this plays deeply to the limbic system.

 

And apparently, only PUA book writers know this, lol! You're right, though, that it depends very much on the situation.

 

However, not all women are the same. I know how I would respond b/c it has been done to me. I'm thinking of two guys, actually, both of whom I was initially interested in. One said, "I'll wait for you to finish work and then we can go out for a bite." (We had met a couple of times through a mutual friend). The other one said, "When are we going dancing again?" (We had met at a party and this was a few days later). In both cases, my interest plummeted to 0 instantly.

 

But if a guy wants a weak-willed pushover, it might work just fine!

[Seymore]

And apparently, only PUA book writers know this, lol! You're right, though, that it depends very much on the situation.

 

However, not all women are the same. I know how I would respond b/c it has been done to me. I'm thinking of two guys, actually, both of whom I was initially interested in. One said, "I'll wait for you to finish work and then we can go out for a bite." (We had met a couple of times through a mutual friend). The other one said, "When are we going dancing again?" (We had met at a party and this was a few days later). In both cases, my interest plummeted to 0 instantly.

 

But if a guy wants a weak-willed pushover, it might work just fine!

 

For curiosity's sake...say he had worded the bolded "I'll wait for you to finish work and then maybe we can go out for a bite?" - would you have reacted differently?

[Curious_Girl]

For curiosity's sake...say he had worded the bolded "I'll wait for you to finish work and then maybe we can go out for a bite?" - would you have reacted differently?

 

Interesting question...I'm not sure about "maybe" - it does sound kind of wimpy.

 

Part of the problem was that I was finishing work in something like 3 hours and I didn't really want him hanging around all that time b/c then I would feel obliged to go. I felt kind of railroaded into it.

 

I'm thinking more like, "We can go out for a bite, after you finish work, if you like/if you're up to it/if you're hungry." Even, "Let's go out [the rest being the same as I bolded here]." I just felt like I had no say in the matter, and I didn't like that.

[testcase]

Cut out the maybes and sometimes heck anything that makes you sound indecisive, even if you are, if your asking a girl out. Be direct, say it with a smile and be confident. "I'll wait for you to finish work and then we can go out for a bite." might not have been that good cause putting her on the spot. Also trying to set up a date for the same day usually not a good idea ESP if its a first one. If your like... "You know what, we should grab a bite to eat sometime. I'm free on Wednesday or Sunday, whichever works better for you!" Gives her two options and let her know your taking control of the situation.

[JusticeLaw9]

Haven't read all of the other posts, but I would've just asked for her phone number.

[Curious_Girl]

If your like... "You know what, we should grab a bite to eat sometime. I'm free on Wednesday or Sunday, whichever works better for you!" Gives her two options and let her know your taking control of the situation.

 

That sounds better, although I still like "Let's" instead of "should" - somehow should always annoys me, no matter who says it, lol! Some sort of hold-over from childhood or something.

 

The thing is, no one can tell you exactly what to say in any given situation b/c we don't know what you'll be talking about. If it goes with the convo, it's easier.

[browneyedgirl36]

She didn't come by and talk to me, I'm thinking she doesn't care enough to, but then when she said "Thanks for talking to me", I'm like * * * ? I'm just confused.

 

Dude...she really wanted to talk to you. Yes, she shouldn't have huddled at the register with her co-workers, but...I think she was really disappointed that you didn't come over to talk, and she was hiding her disappointment by being a bit sarcastic with her comment.

 

Sounds like she likes you. I can tell you, as a woman, that I won't spend NEARLY that much time talking to someone I'm not interested in, let alone joke/make jabs back and forth. I think she's interested. I also think you should ask for her number.

 

I could be wrong, but...I'm a woman, and from where I sit, that's how it looks.

[Seymore]

Dude...she really wanted to talk to you. Yes, she shouldn't have huddled at the register with her co-workers, but...I think she was really disappointed that you didn't come over to talk, and she was hiding her disappointment by being a bit sarcastic with her comment.

 

Sounds like she likes you. I can tell you, as a woman, that I won't spend NEARLY that much time talking to someone I'm not interested in, let alone joke/make jabs back and forth. I think she's interested. I also think you should ask for her number.

 

I could be wrong, but...I'm a woman, and from where I sit, that's how it looks.

 

lol, thanks browneyedgirl, but it all kinda fell apart around page 3

[Seymore]

Update #12,520:

 

So ever since, I've been civil but not TOO friendly with J. I've actually spent more time talking with T, who has been really chatty with me since I got her meds for her that one day. Again, T is married and so it's just friendly between us, in case some newcomers are thinking "Go for T, then!" But me and T have been talking more than me and J, and J tends to try to butt in more often.

 

Tonight I go to the coffee shop where they work, and J is being really nice to me again. She picked on me last time because I always order one of the same 3 things, so I asked what her opinion was and to recommend me something new, which she did. We're chatting, and she takes my hand and stamps it with this little stamp they use for work, and a couple of minutes later, she gives me her last chocolate covered strawberry that she brought from home. Seriously - would you guys NOT read these as signals?

 

So she wants to show me her new phone. I'm checking it out and there's a photo as her wallpaper of a guy in a bed with J's dog. I ask who it is, she says "That's my boyfriend...and my dog". I kinda jab at her and ask which is which, but for real...I feel like I'm being toyed with now and I was a little frustrated. Not that I've been pursuing her anymore, I've just been trying to act normal. Plus keep in mind that all of this is AFTER I asked her out and got shot down with both "I don't have enough time" and "I'm too young, remember?"

 

So like the title says...I don't get women. And yes, I know you're not ALL like that.

[alli]

So she either didn't tell you about her bf when you asked her out, or she has started dating him since that conversation. Either way, I guess it means she doesn't want a relationship with you. Sorry to hear how it turned out. Maybe this will give you the clear go ahead mentally scratch her off your "interested in" list.

[Seymore]

My point is: why bother giving signs when you're not interested...thats just...wrong, isn't it? I mean, I've just about had it...the one before her wrote me off without getting to know me...our first date and she talked about HER For 2 hours...maybe I need to move and the waterr here is contaminated...

it's just not fair...why do girls treat me like garbage...I have feelings too.

[Curious_Girl]

it's just not fair...why do girls treat me like garbage...I have feelings too.

 

I'm going to PM you...