rich 1517 - here we go again, scared but confident and awake

[guesswho]

By the way, in my earlier post when I said "back off like you've lost interest", I was strictly referring to your physical relationship. I wasn't suggesting you step backwards into the world of "no contact" again. The only time I would do that would be if you can sense her getting scared or distant again.

 

My logic was that she may start to wonder why you're backing off. Are you losing interest? Is it because you're becoming more involved with the other woman? Right now she's making an effort to keep away from intimate contact, if your interest suddenly seems to fall off she will probably feel relieved at first, but then I'm betting she'll become concerned and start to initiate more physical contact. Right now she knows it's there any time she wants it....why not put a little doubt in her mind?

[rich_1517]

good points. i did ask her if she minded that i kept trying to seduce her, she said not most of the time. so now you are right, backing off. problem is she is lazy.... but lets see what happens. this is very new and scary, but makes a lot of sense. we are building strong family aspects in and i am playing to her comfort level.

 

obviously i just have to be confident and relaxed about it. so to remind myself and those out there who also struggle, stay busy, work out, go do some things very fulfilling for me, this now has a direction i can drop my hands and mental tools for a little.

 

the thing that is hard is the "is she dating?" question. i know i cannot bring it up, and i have to win on my merits. i guess its a question for another time. first lets see how this goes. she was excited about whats happening so either she is stoked she has her buddy on her terms or she sees this as comfortable enough to work with.

 

Keep it coming guess, (where do i send the check for counseling?)

 

hope all is well with you.

[guesswho]

Is she dating? I would say no. She's said she isn't and isn't even looking. If she had a new relationship or potential relationship she was excited about I don't think she would be spending so much time and effort to develop your relationship. Sleepovers and camping wouldn't make sense. She wouldn't be putting her son's emotions at risk. If she thought someone else was wonderful she would be wanting her son to start to bond with them.

 

No guarantees....just a woman's/mom's opinion.

[rich_1517]

good point. and you absolutely correct. she would start to phase me out more actively.

 

but again, she is a tough one to understand. she could keep me as a friend and close to her son and STILL look for someone new, knowing that she would not bring that person in for some time having seen what can happen. her ex had a live in girlfriend for two years who left and never saw her son again, this scares her quite a bit.

 

She also comes from a family of, follow me on this, of divorces and many step kids who all hang out, the exs also show up as well. so it is not uncommon in her life or expereince for people to stay around after, well show up for large family events.

 

i know that sounds pretty crappy but i cant figure her out on this whole thing.

 

but the only answer to fear is courage and faith. if her heart is still in there i will find it. there is something insanely noble about this thing i am doing, but its also real love, albeit wrapped in delusion. but i have made my choice. she seems to be walking with me far enough to see, so lets see.

[guesswho]

I hear what you're saying about keeping exes around, but I don't think you've given her the impression at all that you're willing to do that. I think she knows if this doesn't continue to progress that you will move on, find someone else and possibly start your own family. I think it's that knowledge that is prompting her to push herself out of her comfort zone a little at a time.

 

Kind of along the same line as the intimacy, but on a larger scale....when you first broke up you being gone was a relief and she knew she could snap her fingers and you'd be back. Then you backed off and the doubts started to creep in. Then you started dating and the thought of you ending up with someone else didn't set well. Right now she knows you want her, but don't need her and you'll be fine either way. In other words, she respects you.

 

You haven't mentioned it for a while...how's the smoking and job situation? Although I'm not convinced those were her real reasons. I think your break up was more fear driven, but they may have contributed to her doubts that you were "Mr. Right". In other words she used it to justify her decision which it sounds like you've since discovered was actually fear of commitment.

[rich_1517]

job good, smoking bad. i keep trying but i feel kind of overwhelmed about quitting while so much is going on. i know that it is a major hot button, but yeah some of it seems to be cover. but remove it? big leg up. trying again today, im just afraid to become overly "expressive".

 

cant beat that one, not yet. trying.

 

work is getting better and better. i am closing good contract work and rates for my industry consulting are creaping back up. this is leading to me finding full time in a much more acceptable market. the big change is me, im believing again that i can succeed.

[rich_1517]

just getting stuff out of my system. I know i need to relax on pressure. but...

 

i am angry, as expected becuase i am compromising short term to win long term, so some of the sacrifice can sting. but i am also closer again to saying things that may not serve.

 

i want her to want me. she called this morning to confirm tonight, we will go swimming, barbecue, etc. she asked why i didnt call her back last night. and i very flatly said "was worried it was too late" read (i wasnt home here).

 

i am seeing it as it is: she is talking and acting like an independent woman. she has made no comments that would lead me to believe i play any significant role in her future other then a friend.

 

so i am seeing myself now behaving that way. the couch is fine now, hell the driveway is fine. the person i am seeing isnt in love with me as far as i can see, so its like sleeping with a stranger. (these are feelings of the moment)

 

if she would only start talking. but i cant make her, and my take now is she will stay in her pattern, meaning she is fine the way she is, she doesnt need to do anything different. pain or missing wont do it. she is alone in her own head and feelings and she stays there.

 

dont jump on me here but maybe i should let her be that way. im just scared that i may get angry enough to walk away again, only to turn around in a month. but i see now this "thing' only has a little life left in it for trying.

 

i can see from her perspective she has been trying, but in a very unhealthy was (my opinion) she hasnt considered her own pattern of shutting down as a defense to being hurt, so its easy for her to show up for things, shes safe, but no connection can happen.

 

this feels like a step backwards.

 

i have asked her to step outside her comfort zone, i have asked her to talk. can i remind her of that without come off as pushy or desperate?

[guesswho]

It's good you chose here to vent so you can be cool tonight; and I won't "jump on you" because it's perfectly natural to have these ups and downs in your position. Just don't let your pride get in your way. Be confident in the knowledge that in a lot of ways you are calling the shots now and reeling her in slowly.

 

Think of it this way, do you want to spend the next month hanging out and showing her how much potential you two have now or at home hoping she's missing you knowing full well that you will eventually break down and contact her? You've been there/done that and it served its purpose, but now it's time to work on cultivating the friendship, respect and eventually passion that you've quoted before.

 

From an objective point of view it seems like she's starting to chase you. She's making plans, she wants you to stay, she's calling to confirm, wondering why you didn't call back (in other words worrying where you were--possibly with someone else?). You just need to try to have a more positive outlook right now. Rome wasn't built in a day and you either need to be patient (since you've chosen to win back the heart of someone with "issues") or you need to walk away and start over with someone without issues (is there anyone like that our age?).

 

Think of it as starting over with her. You have to rebuild a relationship you both took for granted. You can't jump from point A to back where you were (and would you really want to?). I know it's strange and it is a step backward, but if you start over and miss that fork in the road where things started to go bad last time, you may get to the finish line this time.

 

Now see if you can't think a little more positive this afternoon so you can go have a great time together. I wouldn't talk about the relationship at all unless she brings it up and even then let her guide the conversation and set her comfort level. You not talking about it may make her wonder if you're losing interest. Being "just friends" may have seemed like a great idea until she started to worry that it may be all you want now because you're seeing someone else.

 

Good Luck!

[RayKay]

Very good advice guesswho!

 

I am going to send you a PM.

[rich_1517]

you are soooo dead on.

 

and no there isnt anyone without issues our age. we seem to mature and ripen our issues with age as well.

 

i keep telling people - finding that combination of unique but compatible is sooo hard to find, even with active dating.

 

working on my "attitude"

[rich_1517]

raykay, its ok to post here. one stop shopping for adivsors to the long term players.

 

 

[rich_1517]

time to be cautiously optimistic.

 

last night went fine. this morning she crawled into bed with me. i did not try to seduce her, we just snuggled.

 

when her son got up she called back so the three of us could.

 

everybodies day got messed up, he was sick, her appointment cancelled and my clients were out. so we played hooky.

 

last night we did work outs together and she says she wants to go to vegas for the weekend. i said that would be fun, you should go...

 

she said "no i mean us, your coming i with me". i said oh, kind of far isnt it. have to think about it.

 

vegas is too far to drive, so we i said well if you come up with something cool and spontaneous let me know soon and ill go. so now we are planning a weekend away again.

 

but... is that a good idea with no xxx happening? this might be a really good time to show independance and suggest maybe a one night local, but she is sending the signal loud and clear "lets do something nuts and different" very unlike her, and good that im around for it to happen. so now i have to think of a place, and i really want her to be doing more of it.

 

tonight she said movies with her son and her. she said you dont have to go if you dont want twice, so i may show independence on that instead.

 

so interactions: i am not touching her as much. im trying to send the message of "trying to seduce you is too hard" and"maybe im not that interested" but as you have suggested, i tell her she looks good and of course giving real compliments where warranted.

 

two important things happened. she asked me not to leave in the night, that it upsets her. that when i did it a year ago it really hurt her. i hugged her and said im sorry.

 

the other is that i asked for a toothbrush. she said yours is still there. ohh.

 

like I said cuatiously optimistic. her next reaction would be to pull away some after this. we are doing and talking about a lot (not anything important) but a lot of interaction. i need to ler her know by my actions that she can come or go, that its a choice for her not a requirement.

 

while i was typing this she called and said lets go to LA. i have to be careful here. advice wanted.

[guesswho]

Sounds like you're right on coarse! I'm glad you had a good time and it seems your plan of action is working like a charm.

 

It sure sounds like she's beginning to chase you, not only by very actively making plans, but even a little bit phyically (I've never crawled into bed to snuggle with any of my friends!). I think this will increase over time if your interest appears to remain low-key.

 

I think you're smart to say no to the movie tonight since she made a point to say you didn't have to go twice and you don't want to be too available. I really think if you keep doing things together, but are a little aloof and patient you will have her begging you eventually.

 

But mostly I'd say anything she wants to do is okay for you to do with her until you feel her getting scared. If that happens you need to make sure you don't chase....just give her more space like it doesn't phase you.

 

Again, I think you are making major progress....keep up the good work. Right now, she thinks she's calling the shots, but we know better!

[rich_1517]

well she got a little cooler on the trip, not much at all, jus said well im not doing anything else, and sure ill go. i said its your call, i need a little more interested then that! (joking) she said no no lets go.

 

but i have to pay attention to how she behaves. a weekend again alone seems like a bit much to me right now in one way (if it doesnt blossom some more) and the perfect idea if it does.

 

aloof, aloof, aloof. get her to hold the excitement and me respond to it. if i am nervous and push for things to be "fun" it will backfire. so i will let her come up with ideas.

 

never been to la should be fun.

[rich_1517]

well like everyone im glad the site didnt just die. whew

 

 

well we went to LA. had a great time except, no intimacy still. my gut was telling last week, dont go, dont go, too much time too close with no progress, bad. well i didnt listen.

 

we did a lot, beach, parks, etc. she was touching me a lot more. she was sick one day so we laid low.

 

she was looking through my contacts on my cell phone and saw C's name. (c is the girl i was dating same time as her 3 years ago) she said "you've talked to c?" i said yes but nothing is going on (which is true). i got real quiet at first becuase i wanted to shout at her. she asked if i was ok, then said sorry she shouldnt have brought it up.

 

we really did have a good time. not everything i wanted, i am impatient and want more. but i know this game will take time.

 

so yesterday in a moment of feeling really crappy i called her again. we made jokes etc. then i said im hurting again. i miss you and i love you.

 

oops. i said im willing to be patient, nothing happens before its time, but help me to be patient. fact is the conversation was all pressure oriented. she knows she loves me, shes says she is doing what feels right, she isnt looking for anyone else.

 

i told her what i am doing, that based on her history and what she has said that she is afraid that things never last. and that i am trying to show her she can count on me. she say she knows that.

 

i asked if she wanted something else. she said no.

 

but i broke my own rules, dont call or interact if confidence and esteem are low. fact is she is so removed sometimes that it is hard to maintain that indefinitely. i am mad at myself for pushing so becuase i not ready to end it i will say (when she calls) that i was having a bad day and let it go.

 

i cant get an overview on this right now. i am focusing on getting the rest of my life in order (still) and thats the priority. i dont want to overanalyze it but if you see something do tell me.

 

i dont want it to end yet.

[rich_1517]

ok well feeling better now. but argggh. i am now beating myself up for a moment of weakness. i guess its part of the process so here goes.

 

i am afraid i just shoved her away with neediness. in five months i have only said take me back once. yeaterday i said im willing to be patient, help me to be. etc, etc.

 

i was needy. i was not confident. these are not good things. and as i already now i have to seize the instinct to follow up with more desperation out of fear that the last one chased here away (insert laugh here).

 

the only thing i can do is get confident again, dont bring it up again unless she does. if she does i will just tell her i had a moment was getting sick and well had a bad day.

 

but i dont know the next step. i think its in her hands again. and i have to focus on quitting smoking and now its for real. L one of the other girls i was dating just said "i cant get serious with you, you smoke too much and drink too much diet coke." of course she then called back and changed her mind. but i im ok with not having her around, i was starting to feel dishonest even with saying im not ready either.

 

so in addition to trying to keep my financial status solid i have to improve my health potential.

 

sigh, where to next? there is the camping trip with her son, but im not sure what our status is anymore after this weekend and yesterday. maybe this time she will pull the plug, or not.

 

rich is having a moment still.

[rich_1517]

anyone out there>?

 

she called and wants to go to the movies. so off i go and act like nothing happened. just a blip.

 

i have to play the confidence, low pressure game again. i miss her i really do, i have no idea what she is doing.

 

she obviously does not want me to get too far away. the last time I expressed my feelings i walked away for a month.

 

the future is hard to see, i am moving in a month and i want her to ask me again to move in and so it hurts to see that change. that doesnt mean it wont change again. i have to do the let go for now thing.

 

and of course be prepared for the invites with the son.

[guesswho]

Yes, I'm out here, I'm just not sure what to advise. You could pick up where you left off, like the meltdown never happened, or you could send her an e-mail. I'm not sure how long ago it happened, so I'm not sure if the time has passed.

 

In the e-mail you could say things like, you're sorry for the pressure, you were having a bad day--which may minimize the damage. In fact, you could request she doesn't even answer the e-mail stating "you've heard it all before". Then you could say yes, you do want a life with her, but you're coming from a different place now in that you don't need her to be happy.....so whatever she decides will be fine and you'll just take one day at a time and see where it leads. It's possible this type of message could regain some of the aloofness you lost, but it's up to you. Also, I'm not suggesting you be nasty or negative--more factual.

 

On the bright side, she didn't seem to get completely scared off if she's calling and asking you to do things. She's just probably feeling a little more confident again and that she's once again calling the shots. It will take you a little time to regain lost ground, but hopefully you'll use this to look back on the next time you're tempted to "spill your guts" and it will stop you. I think you are definitely to the place where she is going to have to feel like she needs to chase after you a little in order to force her to open up. It could even be possible that she'll find she needs some professional counseling in dealing with her intimacy issues.

 

Cheer up....we all make mistakes and since you're in it for the long haul, this set back shouldn't make or break the outcome. Hang in there and get your game back!

[rich_1517]

thanks Guess your posts make me feel better.

 

the game is definitely still on. i decided to treat it as "had a bad day". still decding if i will reopen the topic to say i have allowed situations to affect my self resepct and how i behave. and its important to make sure that doesnt continue.

 

we did the online IM thing last night, and this is funny, i thought i was having fun so i typed something in an unreadble font that was really sexual, thinking of course she couldnt read it. wrong, since she didnt have the font it spelled it out for her. ooops. i hate im with her, to impersonal.

 

she now has called to invite me to do something with her and her son tomorrow night.

 

so yes she is in control, but i have to watch my own reactions right now. i am angry again at the situation becuase i opened up and feel vulnerable, so on one hand i have to not react petty and defensive, at the same time its time to stop apologising for being me, this will come and the fact that she isnt running away does feed my confidence.

 

she is now flirting openly (verbally) with me so i will meet her there. so today is an aloof and sarcastic day.

 

sigh. thanks guess

[guesswho]

I loved your IM story. Too funny!

[rich_1517]

well i really am sick so i had legitimate reason to break a date.

 

still hurting from all the confusion around this. people mean well but sometimes grrr. my femal roomate laid into me about how patient i am and she is just using me and im just her "mate". shes british.

 

and of course i am unsure of what is happening myself, totally. i want to believe that she isnt using me i really do. who would involve thier son and thier time this much with a "buddy?". can she truly be that bored? ladies?

 

tonight was a calculated move, i cancelled non chalantly and said another night, i feel terrible. she was very understanding. i said tomorrow night is ok though with her son. she said not sure if she is going to do it. has to plan goals for the weekend.

 

now heres the catch, the plans for tomorrow mean coming my way. an hour from her home. means she and her son would stay here. unless that is uncomfortable with her. otnight when we talk or IM ill say i can lay out the futon for you guys or not, your call. this is very close behaviour to where we used to be.

 

so its back to my question, do i own what i did at all? the needy part or just be aloof and present. have a good time? sigh....

[rich_1517]

be careful what you wish for. i had really wished this week that two things would happen. i would begin to care less and my confidence would return,

 

dangerous combination. books about reconcilliation warn about this part. you put so much effort in with little return and apathetic feelings set in.

 

this week to compensate for saying too much i broke a date with her, cut all my conversations short, was a little short last night when i didnt feel well and was so so today when she called and i cut the conversation short again.

 

no i dont think its affecting her all that much. this was for me. i think if she cancelled tomorrows park, dinner, movie, sleepover with me and her son i would not care right now.

 

i watched peter pan tonight with L, yes she changed her mind. i could emphathise with peter a lot. there is that part of me that loves life, devil may care, forget my worries, that has been buried for a while.

 

i have to watch this becuase in this mode i could very easily say "you have taught me to let go more, and to see you as a friend"

 

have to watch this. becuase i am getting fatalistic. some days i think that no one would string someone along like this, no way. not weekend trips, and sleeping over and calls, calls calls. could it really be just bored and using me for comfort and feeling better?

 

on the other days i am convinced thats what she is doing hence the no sex, limited flirting. on those days, like today i get in a very standoffish and negative place about her. and the temptation to make suggestions about sex come to mind to test.

 

so here I am playing the game, and i still have to follow the rules, no pressure or be elsewhere.

 

next week will be interesting. her mom has asked her to house sit. the new house in the middle of no where. i mean no where. nothing to do at the end of thrity minutes of dead end dirt road.

 

I do not expect her to invite me, and without any intimacy im not sure i would go, but it will be interesting to see if she invites me. so to that end i work one date at a time. i will have fun tomorrow, then be absent and give myself time again to ask what i am doing.

[rich_1517]

what the?

 

ok so the woman i love has now invited me to go away for two weeks with her and her son. no small trip either. this is out of country.

 

and next weekend? four days at her moms in the middle of nowhere. i had expected her not to invite me.

 

so heres how we interact, good eye contact, open conversation, considerateness, caring, touching (non sexual), shared responsibities, comfort. and of course fun and more importantly we make each other and her son just plain feel good.

 

but... no serious kissing, last night i went to be with no good night kiss.

 

after bringing up the trip in august, she started to ask about next weekend. and i stopped her to say something, she said i know we spend a lot time together, i just love to be with you.

 

i said thats what i want you to say, not would i like to go? i need you to say you want me to come, i need the words.

 

physical looks like this: fighting, biting, pinching, twisting, spanking but yeah no direct "sexual" overtone. as i tweaked her nips after she bit me she said "you lost that privilege". i held my reaction to excuse me, but didnt you grab **** when i had you down?

 

the point it this. what the?

 

talking will have to come soon?

 

i do know that my confidence and sometimes laid back attitude gets a very positive result and right now she has no room to nurture me. (if you look at her son right now you would understand, it all goes there)

 

i have to lay this all out on a list and maybe see a counselor at this point to maybe get a glimpse of what may be driving her. it really could be the smoking and diet. that you know what will not happen until.

 

but Rich is feeling pretty good, he knows that if he does nothing to halt it, that at least the next two months are serious involvement with her and maybe no sex, but it is getting exciting not scary, yes it is.

[rich_1517]

i know i just keep posting and perhaps i am alone in here. but you know this works. to hear my own thoughts on digital paper.

 

on one hand i am tempted to do nothing, just relax and let this unfold on her timetable.

 

but if we assume my backbone is an important part of the relationship, then i better keep rebuilding it. lack of respect will either give me no ground for reconcilliation because i am too weak, or we go back in and i have no ground to stand on and my needs are nowhere in the mix.

 

yes i am making a big assumption here, that she is moving towards reconcilliation. there is one major clue that is important. during a hike she was commenting on my mismatched sox. i did it on purpose, off tones in the same family. she wanted to say something, then held back. i said go ahead.

 

she said one of the things that has bothered her in the past has been my not keeping my clothes neat. i dress well but i am a bachelor, so sometimes details get missed. the important thing is: she expressed a change she would like to see. thats important, its the first since break up.

 

others things were reasons why no relationship, this was change would make me feel better.

 

 

there should be relationship police. there really should. she would have so many points on her license they would revoke it.

[jony123]

you are right there about the clothes.. she wouldn't say anythin unless she cared about you...how long was you 2 broke up for... i am workin on things with my ex and it is goin really good but she is away to her fathers 1hr drive and i broke both my cars...