Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

link removed

link removed

 

not to spread discouraging message, but I like it when people tell the truth without sugarcoating it.

[marshmlofluff]

Wow L--your journal has exactly 64,000 views!

 

 

 

not to spread discouraging message, but I like it when people tell the truth without sugarcoating it.

 

Well...here is the truth as I see it. The years that are gone are gone. Hindsight is always 20/20, as they say, and I'm sure that looking back everyone has some things they'd do differently if they could live their lives again.

 

Maybe you should have done things differently, maybe you shouldn't...it doesn't matter now, because you can't change the past, or un-do your PhD. You also can't see what your life would have been like if you hadn't done a PhD. Who knows--maybe it would have been much worse. Maybe you would have met a bad man, gotten divorced, and ended up in a worse place than you are.

 

So...move on. Don't waste mental energy regretting things you can't change. Use your past experiences to determine how you want to spend the future. All you have is the time in front of you, so live without regret, or looking back.

 

 

 

Pet your cat. Find a good man. Find a job.

 

The worst thing is indecision, I think...it paralyzes people and prevents them from moving forward with their lives. Now that you have made the crucial life decision to return home, I believe that your life will fall into place around it.

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Marsh for the link and your post. I really didn't post the links for any reason other than I really liked what is written and the honesty that shows through.

 

Yes, I understand that I need to stop beating upon myself and simply continue to move forward in my life for I can't change the past.

[LAYAAN]

Met one man last evening.

[annie24]

Did you like him?

[LAYAAN]

Yes, it was only a 1st meeting. We were out in 1/2 an hour. High chances that he is going to say no. It takes no education to tell where its going when the guy wraps up the date in under an hour, seems to leave abruptly, doesn't say anything while departing. Because I am not turned off, I am going to ask my mother to send him an email. I'm going to do my part, agree to meet quickly, look pleasant, behave well, and follow-up (since this is not western dating system), but I will not be surprised if he says no.

[annie24]

Meh, keep trying! Chin up!!

[LAYAAN]

It is tough to stay hopeful Annie... very tough to stay hopeful.

 

Something that I'm thankful for though (Marsh has also written about this before), is that the rejection happened quickly. This guy and I talked over phone for

[marshmlofluff]

It is tough to stay hopeful Annie... very tough to stay hopeful.

 

Something that I'm thankful for though (Marsh has also written about this before), is that the rejection happened quickly. This guy and I talked over phone for

 

Well, I guess you can feel sad for a few days, and then--next! Keep moving.

[LAYAAN]

Well, I guess you can feel sad for a few days, and then--next! Keep moving.

His mother emailed last night. They don't want to proceed.

 

Keep moving... how long? I've been on this journey since age 21. My friend who recently got married at 33 said to me "If you want a job and don't have one, what do you do? Do you give up looking because people are turning you down? You have to go to these meetings with same mentality. Unfortunate part is that jobs are more in no. than men. That makes these rejections very hard to swallow."

 

I just want someone to tell me what am I doing so wrong to bring in this huge load of rejections? We don't even approach those men that have specifically mentioned things that I don't have (e.g. a certain profession). I sometimes feel that I will wait for another year and then just withdraw my name and adopt a baby and start a new life. How do you deal with self-doubt (is something wrong with me? What do I lack that is so obvious to others, but not me?) and worry?

[marshmlofluff]

Keep moving... how long? I've been on this journey since age 21.

 

While that may be true, it doesn't sound like you were actually in a realistic position to get married until 33. You were not in your home country, you had job issues, visa issues, etc. It sounds to me like it's only been three or four months that you've really been trying in a way that has the potential to work.

 

I just want someone to tell me what am I doing so wrong to bring in this huge load of rejections? We don't even approach those men that have specifically mentioned things that I don't have (e.g. a certain profession). I sometimes feel that I will wait for another year and then just withdraw my name and adopt a baby and start a new life. How do you deal with self-doubt (is something wrong with me? What do I lack that is so obvious to others, but not me?) and worry?

 

I'm not sure there is anything unusual about getting rejections, especially online. Everyone in the world gets rejections...boy did I get my share.

 

Think about it from the other side of things. There was nothing really wrong with the PhD guy you didn't want to marry; he and his life just weren't a fit for you and your life. But he met someone else, and the same is true for you...you will meet someone else too.

[LAYAAN]

While that may be true, it doesn't sound like you were actually in a realistic position to get married until 33. You were not in your home country, you had job issues, visa issues, etc. It sounds to me like it's only been three or four months that you've really been trying in a way that has the potential to work.

 

 

 

I'm not sure there is anything unusual about getting rejections, especially online. Everyone in the world gets rejections...boy did I get my share.

 

Think about it from the other side of things. There was nothing really wrong with the PhD guy you didn't want to marry; he and his life just weren't a fit for you and your life. But he met someone else, and the same is true for you...you will meet someone else too.

Thank you Marsh.

Yes, you bring a different perspective. I didn't think about this. You are right.

Recently another proposal failed to go through because he is not interested in leaving city X. Presently we both live in city X. I know that its very difficult for me to get a decent job here in my field of choice. I have to move to southern part of my country if I want to get somewhere. He said "Unless someone pays me 2x my current salary, I am not leaving." We stopped interacting. I can't push him to leave his comfort zone. I can't find a job in city X and stay in a field that I don't want to stay in. What do you do then? We had to let it go. Everything else is fine, but we can't live in the same city.

[marshmlofluff]

Thank you Marsh.

Yes, you bring a different perspective. I didn't think about this. You are right.

Recently another proposal failed to go through because he is not interested in leaving city X. Presently we both live in city X. I know that its very difficult for me to get a decent job here in my field of choice. I have to move to southern part of my country if I want to get somewhere. He said "Unless someone pays me 2x my current salary, I am not leaving." We stopped interacting. I can't push him to leave his comfort zone. I can't find a job in city X and stay in a field that I don't want to stay in. What do you do then? We had to let it go. Everything else is fine, but we can't live in the same city.

 

You can keep him in mind if you like him. Your family is in City X, so it's to your own advantage to stay there. That way you can also stay where you speak the language, etc.

 

I myself made a *lot* of compromises on my job purely because I wanted to stay in my own City X, near my family. I don't regret it at all. In my 20s, I made my career the center of my life--and then in the end, the career turned out to be not so great, and I had to leave it anyway. I was almost 31 when I finally realized that whereas jobs come and go, a husband is going to be around for a lifetime. Everyone has their own balance, but if you have to make some compromises on a job in order to find a suitable partner, I would say it's good to be open to that.

[LAYAAN]

You can keep him in mind if you like him. Your family is in City X, so it's to your own advantage to stay there. That way you can also stay where you speak the language, etc.

If I could have anything even I would ask for this. In fact, since I was 21, my parents have been looking for a boy in their own town. My preference is to stay right here in my town. I get free room, free food, I'm right here when my parents need me. While all this sounds good, there is another part that I must pay attention to. There is no pharma industry here. The only job I can probably get is to teach at a pharmacy school. The boy hasn't said to me "If you promise me to get a job in this town, I will marry you." He is out there still looking. What do I do? I'm even willing to take up a pure teaching position in my town if this guy is going to marry me (ofcourse if there is one available and if I get it). I won't be making much money in a teaching position in this country. Once I get into academics, there is virtually no possibility of switching to an industrial position. Its the same way even in the US (I'm not talking about those high-profile professors that are top dogs in their field and pharma giants chase them down, begging them to serve as a consultant in exchange of a million dollars. I'm playing by the rule of averages here).

 

I myself made a *lot* of compromises on my job purely because I wanted to stay in my own City X, near my family. I don't regret it at all. In my 20s, I made my career the center of my life--and then in the end, the career turned out to be not so great, and I had to leave it anyway. I was almost 31 when I finally realized that whereas jobs come and go, a husband is going to be around for a lifetime. Everyone has their own balance, but if you have to make some compromises on a job in order to find a suitable partner, I would say it's good to be open to that.

I agree. This is one of the reasons, I wrote in my journal that I will take up even a postdoc or a research assistant or adjunct faculty position, as long as I'm going to be closer to my husband in the US. I have the same approach here while looking for men here as well. I'm applying for those rare positions in my town, but so far I haven't had any luck. Remember I was considering that guy in Wyoming and a physician in North Dakota? Its because of this. I don't care so much about my career at this time, as long as I can get some job and can stay closer to my husband and I'm okay not working from the 1st day of marriage. Its these men that are concerned that I won't be happy, what job I'll get, what salary will I get, will I get a job in their town, this and that.

 

Women here won't like it if I say this - in my culture, a woman follows her husband along. His job, his career, his career growth take priority over everything else. I've faced this in the US and even here. The guy that I was considering for marriage in December, slammed the receiver when I only asked if he would consider moving to my town since we are established here and can support him while he is originally from city X, working and struggling in city Y.

[LAYAAN]

link removed

I don't know how to attach a PDF file here.

There are a couple of PDF files if you want to search -

Influences on the Career Transitions of Female Postdoctoral Scholars

NPA ADVANCE FOCUS GROUP FINDINGS

February 24, 2012

[LAYAAN]

link removed

I like reading this blog.

[LAYAAN]

Few days ago, I talked to someone who has recently returned from one of the top research institutions in the US back to my country. He said "You may have returned a lil too early for your experience in your field. Why don't you stay back some more, develop expertise in a field of your choice, negotiate a great salary from there (US) and then return? Would you be interested in going back to do some more research as a postdoc? I can try to arrange for something."

 

I told him "I appreciate your desire to help me, but I'm not looking to get into a basic science postdoc position. I really want to see if I can get an industry position, no matter how junior or even at the entry level."

 

My mother asked me why did I turn down even a possibility of getting a position? .... I didn't bother explaining.

[marshmlofluff]

The boy hasn't said to me "If you promise me to get a job in this town, I will marry you." He is out there still looking. What do I do?

 

Have you said to him "I am interested in staying in this city, and would prefer to stay here, since my family is here. I also am interested in you. I think I could be happy here, living with you, and I am willing to stay here and take up a teaching job if you are ready to marry?" If not, I suggest that.

 

Women here won't like it if I say this - in my culture, a woman follows her husband along. His job, his career, his career growth take priority over everything else.

 

I neither like nor dislike the statement; it might be more true in your culture than in the West. But I can just say that what you describe wasn't my experience, not even with men from your culture. I guess it was clear to anyone who was familiar with my professional life that I wasn't the type of woman who was going to meekly serve her husband and sacrifice her career for his. Those men who had a problem with that or who wanted something different probably did not even begin an interaction with me, or pursue one.

[LAYAAN]

Have you said to him "I am interested in staying in this city, and would prefer to stay here, since my family is here. I also am interested in you. I think I could be happy here, living with you, and I am willing to stay here and take up a teaching job if you are ready to marry?" If not, I suggest that.

All this is over, Marsh. He called me 2 days ago and said "I really need to take a decision. I have met a girl. We all like her. What's happening at your end? Are you getting a job in this town?"

I said "I haven't even had an interview in my town, much less a job. See, I see no advertisements for teaching positions in my town either. That doesn't mean that it wont' happen, but it will definitely take time. How much time? I can't tell you. I'm interested in you. I will find something to do even a guest lecturer position or something to start with. Will you be okay with my tiny income? I won't bring in a huge amount of income that a woman from IT field would bring in. It is painful for me to say this, but if you have met someone that fits in with your desires, your specifications, and you and your family like her, then you know what you should do."

 

This is not the first man I've lost because I don't have a job and I don't make a certain amount of money. The inflation rate here is so high that 99% men are looking for working women only and they would rather wait to marry someone who makes a certain amount of money than marry anyone in hurry. In fact, I've come to believe that if I continue to stay in my town, I would find no man and no job. That is why, if all goes well, I will be relocating to another town in a southern state in hopes that my life can start. Its difficult, but I really don't see how to break this cycle that I'm caught into- 'No job therefore no man.'

 

In fact, I sat down with my mom after this episode and told her "We saw 10+ men in 2 months that I've been here. Why do you think it didn't move forward? Most of them asked the same Q in different ways- You have a pharmacy degree. Where will you find a job? If I had a decent job today, they would feel confident in proceeding with me. But the fact that I don't have a job bothers them. I see that we are wasting our time and energy spinning our wheels looking for men in our town. They all want a working wife and I'm not one, so I think I should move to the other town in search of work and hopefully something might work there if I get a job."

 

The guy I wrote about before (the one who doesn't want a kid) is the only guy I've met so far who is okay with my not having a job.

 

I honestly feel that I'm fighting a losing battle. I moved here in hope of finding a man and getting a job. I wonder if that would happen.

[marshmlofluff]

Wow. I'm so sorry to hear that. It must have been very painful. At least it sounds like the problem wasn't your job; it was that he met another woman who, for whatever reason, he felt he was more compatible with. In that circumstance, I don't think that your having a job would've helped. Just the same way, you will find someone who likes you, regardless of your job, better then everyone else.

 

That said, in the future should you find yourself in such situation again, I think it's best to try and put a positive spin on things rather than say "I will have a tiny income. I won't bring in a huge amount of money like an IT woman." The problem with saying things like that is that it can come accross as negative, harsh, and bitter.

 

 

 

I don't know that I would lose hope because of this. If someone likes you, he is willing to tolerate a lot of shortcomings--that's my experience. I have a friend who is madly in love with a woman he works with. She has two kids, is separated from her husband but refuses to divorce, and has all kinds of emotional issues. My friend doesn't care--not only does he like her, he likes her so much that he's been staying at a job he hates just because he can be near her. I'm not saying that your culture is as tolerant, but at the same time people are people.

 

I also think that your culture is more traditional--a large fraction of men don't like a woman to earn too much and would be totally happy with a woman who had the education and intelligence to have a meaningful conversation with them, but who wanted to stay home and take care of the house and kids. I'm not saying that you would be happy with that situation or that kind of man, but I'm just surprised to hear you say that 99% of men insist on your having a high salary.

 

 

 

You have only been home two months, if I understand correctly. In that time, you have already managed to meet 10+ men (which in the US would have taken five years), and had job interviews. I understand that rejection is difficult, and the transition back to your home country is difficult, but at the same time I just don't think that your circumstances justify the levels of frustration and pessimism that you are expressing.

 

You have asked many times what the problem is, and why men are declining you. Since you are in your country where long-term relationships mostly do not happen, you have one meeting with these men to make a good impression. It is super important that you be yourself but be your *best* self. Meet them with sweetness, softness and smiles, and tenderness and concern for their well-being. Even if the situation of a first meeting is awkward, you must act as though you are happy to be in their company and respect them. If instead you come accross as negative, angry, harsh, or hostile, the interaction will be over right then, whether you have a wonderful job or not. By the same coin, if you are able to soften that and be charming, your job situation may not matter. Just a thought.

[Lyn Utermark]

me too... I was just looking to find a place to blog my vents...

[LAYAAN]

That said, in the future should you find yourself in such situation again, I think it's best to try and put a positive spin on things rather than say "I will have a tiny income. I won't bring in a huge amount of money like an IT woman." The problem with saying things like that is that it can come accross as negative, harsh, and bitter.

Nah... I said it with a calm tone. I mean what I said. The guy had written in his profile that he prefers to marry someone from IT industry. When they approached us, my mom even asked his dad "My daughter is not an engineer. Is that okay?" They said that it was okay. He told me in our personal meeting that he still prefers to marry someone from IT. His wife's income is a necessity for him. That is fine. I said it because it is true and I want him to know what he is getting into. I don't want fights later on because of my low salary. Its not about being harsh or negative. Its about being realistic. He needs to know this before he gets engaged to me.

 

I'm starting my career now whereas even a normal BE computers in my country has min 5+ years of work experience under her belt so such a woman is much ahead of the game in terms of salary.

 

This is not the 1st guy. There have been at least 2 more similar cases. One guy came to my house and in front of everyone (his family and my family) he said "oh... pharmacy has no job prospects here. Why did you come back?" Was that a time and place to address this question? My Q is - if you thought you didn't want to be with someone with my area of work, why did you come to see me?

 

Other guy asked me "Are there any pharmaceutical companies around this town where in you can find a job? I guess not haan."

 

See... this is not about love. This about finding the best that you can before you decide that you want to look no more. The example you gave may be true, but it is not true in arranged setting. You hardly see the guy for 1/2 hour. If he doesn't like you physically, what is there to like about you? I'm a soft-spoken person naturally and in arranged marriage irrespective of what the guy or his family say/s, I don't even stand up for myself because they don't like women behaving that way in my culture. It goes around "Their daughter is rude, angry, bitter, disrespectful." (How am I disrespectful for standing up for myself? But to even have self-respect and pride is bad for women in my culture.)

[annie24]

Layann - you and your parents need to get over this inferiority complex and start putting a positive spin on things. Instead of, "our daughter is not in IT, is that ok?" they should be saying, "our daughter is beautiful, lovely, kind, intelligent, and is a good cook. she just obtained a PhD from an american university in pharmacy and we are so proud of her." that's how you have to present yourself as well. put a positive spin on everything! the guy and his family can then decide if that's what he wants or not. i mean, stop being ashamed of yourself like you have 5 heads or are green or something. it's like a job interview - put your best foot forward, highlight your positives, and bury down the "negatives." which i don't really consider a PhD in pharmacy to be a negative thing!! i mean, you're immensely qualified and intelligent and will get a good job eventually, it just takes a little time to look. it's not like you are a burger flipper at mcdonalds' and can get a job today at mcdonald's or burger king or any other chain. high profile jobs take a little longer to obtain.

[marshmlofluff]

I'd add something, but this is pretty perfect. Add to that that you had job offers in the US (since you did), but came home to be in the same country as your family.

 

I'm not saying that if your meetings go perfectly, men will change their minds about wanting an IT woman. Since there is so little to lose in a 1/2 hour meeting, sometimes people come in with a preconceived notion of what they want, and they just meet you to make sure that they won't change their mind.

 

But being positive is not going to hurt. Be your best self. Take some professional photos suited to your country, that look happy and cheerful. Go get your hair done. Etc. And get out of the frame of mind that because you aren't in IT nobody will want to marry you--plenty of non-IT women are happily married. Also, keep in mind that whether it is a good thing or not, your country is more traditional and therefore overall more tolerant of women who are not working.

 

Keep trying.

[LAYAAN]

- Recently I was interviewed at one small University in a small town for a faculty position. I turned down the job. (I wanted to take it to be closer to him and possibly get married.) This town is an hour away from a huge city. This is the same city where a man lives that I really like interacting with (I've written about him before. We met through a marriage website.)

 

so... there has been something I've been battling with about this guy.

 

He is without work since April. Fine... I like him and would like to proceed with him. He says that he feels the same way, but can't because he doesn't have a job and needs to have a job before he can marry. I said to him "Listen, we can marry and you can continue looking for job. I'm getting about $800 plus free accommodation and we live on campus (so no commuting for me, since he doesn't have a job, no commuting for him either. If he wants to attend interviews, he can do so). We can definitely survive on that. If you get something in the big town close by, that's fine. If you get something in other town, you go there. I will join you when we think its appropriate. Till that time, we can travel to meet each other once a month or so."

Even before this I had given him a few options (so we could be together), he declined those (I've written about it in my journal).

 

When I attended the interview, I went to see him in his town. We met once in early June, now this is the 2nd time we met. I see that he was more stressed about finding a job. He didn't want to talk about marriage. I went to see him because I wanted to sit down and talk and see if we can come to a mutual agreement about how and if to continue our communication.

 

I want to take a break from talking to him. I like him and want to move forward with him. He says he likes me, but won't marry me until he gets a job and he won't negotiate on that. While I'm continuing to stay in touch with him - I'm getting emotionally involved.

 

This is exactly what happened from 2005-mid 2007. My goal was to get married. The UK guy wasn't ready for marriage then as he was still finishing his PhD and didn't have a job, so I waited (like a fool). By mid 2007, he had finished his PhD and gotten a job and his parents started pushing him for marriage, so he started pushing me for marriage. Unfortunately I should have completed MS level education (i.e. passed my Quals) by mid 2006, but the whole process was stalled for stupid academic reasons. Also, we started having fights during this looong period of interaction as our differences surfaced. He kept looking for a girl during this entire time (I was not aware of that. A friend found his marriage profile online). The moment he found one, he moved on (a week after we decided to stop interacting) and got married. I went through massive depression and took almost a year to get over him. My PhD was further delayed due to my unproductivity during this time. During this time, (as I look back, I realize) my market value due to my age was at its highest. I wasn't keen on finishing up my PhD and really could have gotten married had I been emotionally available and baggage free. I have let some really decent, marriage material guys go because of this man and I regret that to this date.

 

I find myself in same situation now with this new guy.

I want to be available and baggage free to meet someone and get married. He is currently available, but not ready for marriage (at least with me).

I want to tell him "I'm interested in taking this forward towards marriage. I've given you a few options that you are not interested in taking. I want to limit our interaction now onwards. I do not know how to continue talking with you and not get emotionally involved and not continue to ask you about marriage. I also am not the kind of person who can feel good about being involved in someone and continue to interact with other men and jump the moment I find someone else. If and when you are ready to talk to me about marriage, you know how to find me. If you don't get in touch with me, I will understand and won't bother you."

 

How do you suggest that I handle this?