Thoughts, ramblings

[annie24]

personally, i don't see anything wrong with meeting them - as long as they come to you!! i think yes, it would be ridiculous for you to fly out now wherever, but if a man wants to visit you (maybe even the weekend after the exam!) why not.

 

but don't waste your precious brain cells right now worried about a man.

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Annie.

[LAYAAN]

Last couple of days have been difficult. I have written about this man in my previous posts (I'll get the post number if I can easily find it). I got in touch with him through my maternal uncle.

Basically, he is back home, completed his MS there (not sure if he really has completed it or not either), started a PhD program, didn't finish it. He currently has a job with the government. He has been putting huge pressure on me to come back and marry him. My mother, maternal uncle are suddenly dancing to his rhythm. So, I had to ask him some hard Qs to understand where he is at in his life and career and now I'm being blamed for being "too analytical, too picky". I call mom these days regularly (even if I don't want to) to inquire about the house and her health (she recently had eye surgery). My mom wouldn't talk straight to me. Whatever I say, she is throwing temper tantrums at me and calling me "too picky".

 

The maternal uncle has joined forces with my mom in blaming me, "What was I thinking suggesting your daughter the proposal of this boy? He is a great guy. He won't stay unmarried long. You are going to lose him. Well, first of all, your daughter needs to stop asking the Qs that she is asking. It seems like her list of Qs is never-ending. I'm not going to get involved in this anymore because I don't want to be blamed later on if her marriage falls apart. Understand that she is too picky for her age. She needs to learn to take whatever she is getting and shut up. Thats the only way she will be able to get married. Why the heck she is asking him Qs about his PhD and his career plans? Our daughter-in-law never asked our son these Qs when they got married and even after marriage."

 

The guy basically indicated that he is in a rush to get married and if I return, he will marry me. My Q is - thats great, but is this guy worth leaving what I've going here? He didn't complete his PhD. He gave me no reason for why he won't complete his PhD. Since he went through the program for several years before he started his 1st and current position, that has left huge gap on his CV and he doesn't want to address that. He said he would get a permanent government position. He claims that he got it, but declined it. He has given me no reason for why he turned down a permanent position. When I asked him what are his career plans? he says he doesn't know. But he is putting pressure on me to return at once and get married. What for? There is no security in marrying him.

 

My mom argued with me back and forth, but later agreed with my concerns and now thinks that I should send him an email and ask him what does he plan on doing after a couple of years when the position finally ends? My mom thinks that I should write him all my Qs before finally saying no to him.

 

So, I told him straight "I want to think about your proposal, but I need more information before coming to a decision." If he had told me that he has a permanent position with the govt, I would have left everything here in an instant. Since he told me that he has declined the position, I told him "My visa change is in progress, once it gets approved, I'm going to visit my parents anyway. If you are single until then, I will be happy to meet you and see how things go, but I can't come back now."

 

Hate all this. I told my mom today "I appreciate that uncle suggested this boy's alliance, but its upto us to accept it. If my life is going to be tied to his, I need to ask Qs. I can't just blindly jump without looking. Your problem is that you want uncle to "understand" us and our logic. He can't/doesn't want to. You are constantly going to uncle with your problems and crying about how your daughter is still unmarried... so he gave a solution "marry this man". Its upto us to figure out if this solution is going to work for us. Don't go to him and cry if you are not going to take his advice. That's why you have left him angry. That's putting pressure on you and you are putting pressure on me. And you know me. I can't take decisions under pressure. That is why I let 2 men go. I need some peace of mind and information to take marriage decision whether I'm here or there."

[LAYAAN]

The reference to post above is page #170, post # 1697.

[penelope13]

I officially give up. There doesn't seem to be anything that I can say to help you out of your eternal cycle. Of course I could simply stop posting on your thread, but I thought I'd give you at least an explanation why (not that I think it will have any impact, but at least I know i've tried everything I am capable of).

 

You are actively choosing to remain in your dilemma. Not once have you listened and followed the advice given to you by many, many people or taken any actions if it meant trying out a new and different approach. You say: 'thanks for the advice, but I keep doing what I have been doing so far' - till you come back to complain about yet another situation that frustrates you or freaks you out.

 

There is nothing magic anyone could say to pull you out of this - because it has been essentially all said many times.

 

I truly wished I could have been of help (not to alleviate momentary anxiety, but to induce a true change/growth), but I feel I am wasting my time and care.

 

If you are wondering what triggered this post: everyone on here suggested you to try to focus on your exams - yet you decide to spend all your energy and time worrying about getting married to the point that you are even considering postponing your exams; that is the only thing you are writing about and you are responding to when someone posts. When you have an opportunity to get married (not that I am recommending that at all!!!!!!) - you find reasons not to consider it. Doesn't this clearly indicate that you really don't know which way to turn, yet are not willing to let go of either option? But you know all of that. I truly don't feel I have anything useful to offer to you anymore. All my thoughts and suggestions that I am able to give, can already be found somewhere on this thread.

 

Wish you all the best

 

P.

[LAYAAN]

I understand your frustration. I appreciate that you tried to help me so much.

 

I have nowhere to turn to. That is why I come here and write. I can't focus on my exams because this man wants answers from me. I never asked him to talk to me. He is emailing me, calling me. I even recently turned down his request for a phone call.

 

It took everything in me to stay here after his last phone call and after huge argument with my mother. My mother is threatening me. I told my mother to not look for men back home until I come there, but she wont' listen and this will continue to happen unless she won't stop looking for men there. They want instant answers. I can't provide them that.

[annie24]

It took everything in me to stay here after his last phone call and after huge argument with my mother. I told my mother to not look for men back home until I come there, but she wont' listen.

 

L - you are a grown woman. you're 33 years old and at least 5000 miles away from your mother. she can't make you do anything. you know, you have to decide what it is you want and what it is that is important to you and go for it.

[LAYAAN]

L - you are a grown woman. you're 33 years old and at least 5000 miles away from your mother. She can't make you do anything. you know, you have to decide what it is you want and what it is that is important to you and go for it.

Well... she is sending these guys my way and I told her not to do that. She won't listen.

The fights that we are having are associated with this. The guy is in a rush to get married. So, I told her, "I can't give him an answer unless I collect information from him. I have some Qs to the guy and depending on his answers I will decide if the proposal is good enough for me to drop everything and fly back right now. If he is in a rush, let him go ahead and get married. I need to get my visa approved only then I can come. In the mean time, I emailed him, and especially after hearing that he has turned down the permanent position, I'm in no hurry to fly back to meet him. I will meet him when I go back (if he is single and ready to meet. If not so be it)" That is what my answer to my mom is.

 

So, now she is fighting with me because my uncle and the guy's side are putting pressure on her. My mom and my uncle say "The guy is ready to marry you. You should be thankful for that and just come back and marry him."

I said "No, that is not sufficient, because I have serious doubts about his ability to get a job since he has not finished his education. Its confusing. So, you all say, just marry, okay, what after that? Who is going to provide for us?"

 

Also, one of the major reasons for our fights is that my parents want me to come back and take care of them. My mom is angry that I am not going back, no matter what is happening to them (recently she had eye surgery and a major structure in their house collapsed.) So, she and her relatives think that I'm the worst child any parent can have because I don't care. At least 3 of her relatives have kids out of the country and their parents don't complain. Even if I was married somewhere away from home town in the same country, I still can't leave my job and husband for weeks and come and live with you and support you." So, now they are targeting my exams. "We dont' want you to stay there another second. Don't take the exams. Just come back." And I'm telling them "Hang in there, let me take my exams, my visa is being processed in the mean time, so I'm not wasting my time here. Its only a matter of few months. When I come back, I want to keep options open if I dont get married there." They don't agree and the fights are on every single day. I've lost peace of mind because of that.

[annie24]

but - do you get what i mean - you are 33. she can't literally pull you by the ear out of the us and back into india. it's not going to happen like that. you are a grown woman. no one can make you do anything against your will. if you want to meet him, that's cool - but he should fly to see you!

[LAYAAN]

Yes, I get what you wrote, Annie.

[marshmlofluff]

The advice Penny gives and has given over the course of this thread has seemed very wise and accurate to me.

 

In all fairness, though, L's is a difficult situation.

 

And perhaps it behooves everyone (including myself) to remember this: So many of our problems, and the solutions, seem simple when an outsider sees them. "Just lose the weight!" "Just study for exams!" "Break up with him!" "Stop worrying!" etc.

 

But--well, if all of us were perfect...

 

L. is alone, 10k miles from home, and honestly (especially in Indian culture) it is hard when your whole family is pushing on you to do something.

 

It's a tough spot to be in.

 

But yes, L, you *can* focus on your exams, regardless of this man or any other. And you must; the more you worry about getting married, the more you delay your exams, and the more you delay the possibility of your getting married.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you marsh for your message and understanding the pressure that my family is putting on me.

I do see the similarity in this phase and the phase I was in, earlier this year with my PhD, caught in the same vicious cycle. I haven't touched books in last week due to this guy from back home putting pressure on me.

[LAYAAN]

I've caved in and I'm saying yes to the guy that I'm not too keen on marrying.

Thanks everyone for your support, I mean it sincerely. I wish things were not like this. I don't have much choice. I will write more about this later, if I can find words.

[marshmlofluff]

I've caved in and I'm saying yes to the guy that I'm not too keen on marrying.

Thanks everyone for your support, I mean it sincerely. I wish things were not like this. I don't have much choice. I will write more about this later, if I can find words.

 

Keep us updated.

 

And remember that no matter what, you always have a choice. (Granted, sometimes that choice is between a rock and a hard place, but you *always* have a choice.)

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh. I feel physically sick today. I am going to take a pill and sleep.

[annie24]

Keep us updated.

 

And remember that no matter what, you always have a choice. (Granted, sometimes that choice is between a rock and a hard place, but you *always* have a choice.)

 

yes, agreed. i would spend some time with this man in person to make sure that this is really what you want to do.

[marshmlofluff]

Thank you Marsh. I feel physically sick today. I am going to take a pill and sleep.

 

I won't bother you now since you are sleeping, but it's going to be OK, L. No matter what you do, you are going to be OK.

 

The more I think about it, the more this guy seems quite decent. Unlike most other men, he will at least understand and appreciate what it means to do a PhD (maybe that is why he likes you). Your family seems to like him (that's important). Sure, there are things about him that you wish were different. But it's like this--everyone is weird in some ways. If their particular brand of weird is not abusive and it isn't destructive then just let them be; try not to judge them. I promise you--there will be things you don't like about anyone. The guy you *were* super-interested in? First, he sounds like a flake who disappeared--and secondly if you have to move abroad, you may as well move to your home country. I have always said--since before you met this man--that I think you will be happier at home than living a lonely life in the US. I think this may be for the best, or at least a good thing for you.

 

Just relax and keep an open heart. If you choose to marry him, ultimately, you are making that decision; you are not being forced into it. There is no reason to feel sick.

 

I'd say go for it. And do it happily. But you must continue to work on any issues you have with anxiety, etc. These things are simply not going to go away because you get married--that's my experience. Don't look to relationships to make you happy. They are icing; they are not the cake. You have to be happy by yourself, before you can be happy with another person.

[LAYAAN]

Since I can't fall asleep, let me try to write a few words here.

 

This is how it unfolded very rapidly and suddenly ...

1st week of June we talked

no contact in between

 

middle of Sept - some email

 

Oct 1st week - another email from him "when are you planning to visit?"

 

Oct 2nd week - I suggested that we see each other on webcam (for the first time ever in several years of our casual talking, emailing)

 

Oct 3rd week - his mom gets up and calls my mom. They decide to meet.

 

In the mean time, I email him what is he doing about his job, etc.

 

Oct 3rd week - this man along with some of his family members meet my parents.

I asked him what his deadline for marriage is... he didn't reply.

I asked him if there is anyone waiting for his answer... he didn't reply.

 

Nov 1st -

Him "When are you coming back?"

Me "I need time to sort out my visa issues. In the mean time, I'm studying for exams. I hope I can be there by January and then I would love to meet with you."

Him "January is too far. I dont think I can wait until then. I have to give an answer to other 2 women. Just like I'm waiting for your answer, they are waiting for mine."

Me " Okay, so if January is too far. I asked you before as well... what is your deadline?"

Him "I dont like to give deadline to others."

Me "Well... you are in a way giving me the deadline. Believe it or not."

Him "You have to tell me today yes/no. I can't wait for January to arrive and then you come here and we meet and then you give me a yes/no. I will lose these 2 girls by that time. I dont' want that. I also don't want to start looking again after 3 months. My mom isn't keeping well, she is after me for marriage. I dont' think I will wait long.

So, basically I give you 2 options - 1) Give me a yes and I will wait for you to wrap things up and come back here. I will say no to those girls. You can come back in January. 2) Give me a no and I'll stop asking you any Qs, and wish you good luck. I will move on with my life, you move on with yours.

[LAYAAN]

yes, agreed. i would spend some time with this man in person to make sure that this is really what you want to do.

That is not possible. I was pushing for that. I even wrote to him in an email you are giving me an ultimatum. Now you are pushing me because someone else is pushing you. You know very well that I'm not in a position to give you an answer right now unless I meet you in person and have a heart-to-heart conversation with you."

His stand is "Take it or leave it. Your only choices are yes/no. I dont want to hear anything other than that."

 

He is smart. He doesn't say anything to me directly.

His mom is calling my mom and saying all sorts of things to her.

"Your daughter is bullheaded. Why (the hell) is she asking so many Qs about his career and degree? I'm worried now, if this is the way she is, can they really get along? Your daughter asks Qs like policeman would interrogate. Even they don't ask so many Qs."

 

My mom got mad at me and said " You will have to give him a yes/no. And please stop asking so many Qs."

Me "How am I expected to get to know a man who is so far away otherwise? If my life is going to be tied to his, I wont' ask Qs?"

Mom "well, they are taking offense to that. So you decide what you want to do."

[LAYAAN]

What I dislike about him -

 

I don't think that this man is focused on his career. I dont think that he takes his career seriously. I have serious doubts about this man's ability and willingness to provide for his family.

 

He told me that he is a happy-go-lucky man, that he doesn't plan for future, he doesn't think about his future. He drives his mother's car. His age is 35 FYI.

 

He got his MS in 2000. He started his PhD in 2002. He has not completed it yet. He said initially that he is working on it. Later he said stuff like "I'm tired of research." When I finally asked him what is going on with his PhD, when is he going to get it, he said "Getting my PhD is not my priority." Okay... so what is his priority? I dont know that. I really would like to know that. But I can't ask him this Q because he got mad at me when I asked him the Q about his PhD.

 

My problem is not that he doesn't have a PhD. My serious concern is that now if he leaves it (or has probably left it already), it will leave several years of gap on his CV which he will have to explain to the prospective employers. What are you going to show for those years? You can show the work you've done as research experience, or you can still complete your PhD part-time. I really wish he would address my concern about this and provide a satisfactory explanation that would convince me. Instead, he gets angry when I address this issue.

 

He doesn't volunteer important information. I have to ask Qs to find out information and then his mom says that I ask too many Qs. I hate that. I consider that as sneaky behavior. His matrimonial profile reads Dr. ABC and there is no mention of any doctoral degree in the profile.

 

I tried to keep quiet about his passiveness w.r.t. his PhD. It was very difficult for me, but I kept quiet. So, then he mentioned that he has a temporary job (a government position) with a possibility of getting permanent. Alright. So, I lifted myself again and said "Its not that bad. He will get a permanent position soon and all will be well." Then he didn't say anything about it until I opened the topic again. Then he said "Oh, I have politely declined the permanent position." My job will be here for 2-3 more years, after that I don't know. I'm not insecure/uncomfortable in taking contract/temporary positions. So, my Q is if you stay here 2 years, there 1 year, another place 2 years... how am I expected to hold a stable job if we are constantly moving? This man gets angry when I ask him career-related Qs. Instead of getting angry, what I'm looking for is a calm reassurance and I've never gotten that from him. I would not bother looking at his degrees if he was rich, but he isn't rich either. So, how is he going to feed his family?

 

I still said that I'll keep him in mind and I thought to myself that I will see him when I visit parents, but not until then. Now, this guy is putting pressure on me. Tell me yes or no now. I really am not in a position to give him yes/no. I need more information to come to a conclusion. But considering his nature, my mom thinks and I agree that he will not give me any more information than he already has given me. He gave similar answers even to my parents when he visited them.

[LAYAAN]

This is what (I think) I like in him -

 

- similar culture, he has come through referral from my maternal uncle.

- doesn't drink/smoke. is a vegetarian like me.

- he is healthy

- he is decent looking

- he has MS (I haven't seen his diploma, but I hope that he actually has it)

 

my mom says that he is good natured. I dont know what that means because he has been pushing me just like the UK guy.

[annie24]

Hm. my take is that I don't like to be pressured into major decisions, especially when there is no real reason to. when someone makes you make a decision on the spot, and no other options, my answer is to say no and walk away. i don't just mean with romantic relationships but in general. like when a salesperson is trying very hard to sell you something and they say 'we will give it to you at this price today, but if you come back tomorrow, it won't be here anymore.' i don't like that. it ticks me off and i walk away. especially when they don't even give you time to sit over lunch and think about it.

 

look - about his position/cv/etc... i see your point, but i see his point also. if he has a job, maybe his phd is not necessary. i know many people who are "ABD" (completed their graduate work except their dissertation) and still have good careers. i don't know if he needs to officially finish to get a job or what.

 

i think it's more than reasonable to want to meet your future husband, at least once, before committing. if he isn't down for that, i see that as a red flag, personally. i mean, just to meet. just to see how you get along in person! L, this is THE BIGGEST decision of your life, bigger than even the choice to get a PhD. you see women who rush into marriage like Kim Kardashian and a few months later get divorced. After the pretty flowers and ceremony, it will be just you and him behind closed doors. i don't think you should be made to feel bad about asking questions - you should know your future husband before marriage!!

 

My question to you - if you marry him and he can't find a job for whatever reason, will you be able to support your family for a while? and if he can't find a job in his field, maybe he can find a job doing whatever in some store? having a phd is not a gaurantee of anything, to be honest. i know PhDs who have been out of work for a year because of the state of the economy and the competition for jobs. i don't know how it is in india.

[LAYAAN]

I won't bother you now since you are sleeping, but it's going to be OK, L. No matter what you do, you are going to be OK.

 

The more I think about it, the more this guy seems quite decent. Unlike most other men, he will at least understand and appreciate what it means to do a PhD (maybe that is why he likes you). Your family seems to like him (that's important). Sure, there are things about him that you wish were different. But it's like this--everyone is weird in some ways. If their particular brand of weird is not abusive and it isn't destructive then just let them be; try not to judge them. I promise you--there will be things you don't like about anyone.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. Yes, this is important to understand. Everyone will have something that I dont want/like. Considering my age, I'm forced to think about what I can live with and what I should compromise on. In age of 26-29, I really had some decent men that I turned down for this or that reason. If I could go back in that time with this attitude, I probably would not have turned them down. But this is where I'm and I can't go back... I can only go forward. Thank you for sharing these wise words. Thank you so much for not being like "You have doubts?... dont go forward then." I'm not saying this because you are supporting my decision, I'm saying this because you have provided both sides of the argument.

 

The guy you *were* super-interested in? First, he sounds like a flake who disappeared--and secondly if you have to move abroad, you may as well move to your home country. I have always said--since before you met this man--that I think you will be happier at home than living a lonely life in the US. I think this may be for the best, or at least a good thing for you.

No, the guy that I was super interested is here in the US. Yes, 1.5 months he was not in touch with me. That is after he told me that he will come to see me in Sept end and that he was going to book his tickets. Then I asked him if he was coming and he said no. At that time he didn't give me a reason. Later he said that he would be busy with meetings. Last weekend he called and talked. He said that he will call me this weekend.

There was other guy who was super interested in meeting me... he is not here. He is in Australia. (I didn't leave him hanging. I told him that I have important matters to attend to. I didn't close the match, it was his decision and I'm not sorry about that.)

 

Just relax and keep an open heart. If you choose to marry him, ultimately, you are making that decision; you are not being forced into it. There is no reason to feel sick.

Yes, that's right. No decision is ever forced. You are saying yes to it.

 

 

I'd say go for it. And do it happily. But you must continue to work on any issues you have with anxiety, etc. These things are simply not going to go away because you get married--that's my experience. Don't look to relationships to make you happy. They are icing; they are not the cake. You have to be happy by yourself, before you can be happy with another person.

Yes, I agree.

[marshmlofluff]

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. Yes, this is important to understand. Everyone will have something that I dont want/like. Considering my age, I'm forced to think about what I can live with and what I should compromise on. In age of 26-29, I really had some decent men that I turned down for this or that reason. If I could go back in that time with this attitude, I probably would not have turned them down. But this is where I'm and I can't go back... I can only go forward. Thank you for sharing these wise words. Thank you so much for not being like "You have doubts?... dont go forward then." I'm not saying this because you are supporting my decision, I'm saying this because you have provided both sides of the argument.

 

It doesn't even have to do with your age, L. It's just that life is about compromise. Just about every single time you make any decision, you gain something and you lose something. That is an inherent part of making decisions. It's just something you have to accept, and if you accept it you won't feel as bad about it.

 

Remember how angry you were when men asked you financial questions? This guy probably feels upset himself about the status of his PhD--and then when you ask him pointed questions about it, he feels worse and also it comes accross as criticizing him. It's not that you don't need information. It's that it is important to ask for it in a respectful way--honey, not vinegar. (Btw I doubt he has let his PhD drag on forever because he is happy-go-lucky...more likely he is afraid of failure, or something else.) Don't interrogate him; just get on webcam and talk to him as much as you can.

 

Also don't forget how close you yourself came to not finishing your PhD. So many times you said you wanted to just give up, quit, etc. Would you have been less of a person if you did that? Would it have affected your ability to be a good wife?

 

Btw, I have never seen anyone with his academic training go unemployed and starve to death. And if you are the primary earner, it is possible that it's him who will end up moving for you, especially if he really is happy-go-lucky and happy to follow you.

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Marsh for your replies.

Last few days have been really challenging. I have lost a bunch of weight, may be my depression is back. Don't know. I'm simply unable to sleep.

I lost the only job offer I had. They gave me no reason and have told me that they wont be processing my visa.

I had applied for another job, was interviewed at 4 different times for the same job. I felt great about it. They felt good about me, but ultimately gave the job to someone with more experience. I kinda noticed that. Even though they scheduled interviews such that the candidates won't run into each other, ultimately someone tends to go over time and I ran into 3 other women. They all looked like they were in their 40s... that means more experienced.

I'm living one day at-a-time. I dont know what to write here... so I haven't been writing much in my journal either.