Thoughts, ramblings

[marshmlofluff]

I really hope so too. I told the senior student (now a PhD) who is visiting the town today, that I don't feel that I'm done yet. But your words give me hope. I'm still in state of fear. I've turned hypersensitive and super cautious as a result of how things went down in last 7 years. Honestly, I'm even afraid of getting married because of the way how I was treated in this PhD program and how I wasn't able to leave PhD. I'm starting to see marriage in a different light because of all this.

 

I don't think your PhD has much bearing on how a marriage will be, or what light you should see marriage in. They are totally different animals. I think the worst thing you could do is let the PhD spoil your outlook on the rest of your life; it stopped you from having a personal life for a long time, so maybe you should take the attitude that now you are even more excited to leave that part of your life behind and live a full life, and do all the things you were unable to do as a graduate student.

 

I'm so happy to know that the relationship is going strong! I'm very happy for you, Marsh! May God bless you. I hope that you two get married.

 

Thank you for the good wishes. It has been a long and winding road for me, but I do hope it will go somewhere good.

 

I'm not sure about EH. Sometime I think that I should go on there and try, sometime I wonder, whats the point? My previous experience has been bad already. Plus right now I dont have a job so I have no money to pay EH and have these men turn me down. I might as well just stay in arranged market and keep getting turned down for various reasons mentioned before.

 

When I said EH, I meant any site like EH. I actually did not like EH much, although all my friends liked it a lot; when I was in a rural area it did not work *at all.* For me the best was OKCupid, and money is not an issue there as the site is free. I actually met my BF on PlentyOfFish (free) where I least expected to meet anyone.

 

Given that most of us define a "bad" experience with online dating as one where you end up not getting into a relationship, by definition all of your experiences are going to be bad until one works. I think almost everyone has to go through some bad experiences before finding a not-bad one, so I don't think that past bad experiences on EH/whatever should deter you. Each of them is one step toward the good one.

 

Also, as far expenses, in my opinion the best dating site is OKCupid, and it is free. It is not my place to tell you about your finances; you know better than I what you can afford. But be careful that "I can't afford it" doesn't become an excuse (it did for me for a while). It sounds as though meeting someone is a top life priority for you. While I can understand that you would not want to spend $4,000 on a professional matchmaker, as I remember, EH is the most expensive of the non-free dating sites, and depending what plan you choose even EH costs less than $10 a week. It seems like if meeting someone is really, really important to you, and if you decided EH was the best dating site, that could be a worthwhile investment. I set aside a few hundred dollars a year--even in graduate school--for dating expenses: Meeting someone was a priority to me and I had to do it, even if it meant some cuts in other areas.

 

But let us suppose you stick with a free site. Fundamentally, I guess I don't really see what you have to lose by posting a profile there in addition to your matrimonial profile. As I see it, the very worst possible thing that is likely to happen is that you go on a bad date or three, or five, whereas the best possible thing that can happen is very good. I actually made a lot of platonic friends on OKC--men and women--whom I am still in touch with.

 

I do understand all your arguments for wanting to stay exclusively on the matrimonial sites, but I will counter all of them with this: The larger your pool of men, the more chance you have of meeting one you get along with. You don't have to marry someone because you see him on OKC, but there is no harm in seeing who is out there, and occasionally answering an e-mail. You never know whom you might meet.

[LAYAAN]

I don't think your PhD has much bearing on how a marriage will be, or what light you should see marriage in. They are totally different animals. I think the worst thing you could do is let the PhD spoil your outlook on the rest of your life; it stopped you from having a personal life for a long time, so maybe you should take the attitude that now you are even more excited to leave that part of your life behind and live a full life, and do all the things you were unable to do as a graduate student.

I understand what you say. I agree for the most part. Here is how I was connecting them.

When I entered PhD program, I didn't know if I wanted PhD bad and was willing to do whatever it takes to get it. I didn't know if this was the right degree for my professional goal. I was so glad that I got full financial aid that I didn't care who was offering the money. As a result, I chose to work with a professor who has a bad reputation on campus. I didn't know what Qs to ask and how to screen labs. I didn't know what my personal goals were and how I should have chosen a lab that would help me achieve those goals. e.g. If I can go back in time with current knowledge about myself and the system, I would first of all just go for an MS, see how I like being in research field and then decide if PhD is really for me or not. Also, I would choose a lab where the PI has a reputation of being helpful to his students, graduates his students in 5 years, no delays for any reason, understands student's professional goals and is supportive of them, has enough funding to support the student through the graduate training. Instead I didnt' think about any of these factors and went into a lab that met with none of these expectations. I don't blame my boss. He is who he is. I was naive and just was blind. That is where I went wrong. The reason... I was so possessed by the desire to just get out of India, get out of the suffocating marriage market, and get out quick that I didn't care to watch where I was headed. I just kept moving and that's not appropriate. I paid for it dearly for last 7 years. Had I taken a few months to really interview the labs and then prayerfully proceed in my decision, yes, I would have started my PhD late, but I would have finished sooner and probably more happier.

It was difficult to get out of the PhD program. Those who quit PhD, normally do so in about 1-3 years. The longer you stay, the harder it is to switch labs and to let go of hope (or delusion) that you are getting closer to graduation. I pretty much was held hostage for the paper. Until they had it, they were not going to let me go. If I would have tried to quit, they would have asked me for partial/full reimbursement of tuition for all the classes that the school paid for. The school dean has a way of getting things done, this way or that way. Unfortunately, around same time when I was thinking of quitting, a lot of PhD students from our program simply got up and left and the faculty and administration was visibly angry about it. If I would have tried to quit, they would have made a case out of me to teach others a lesson. I'm not exaggerating. It has happened now. I will write about it sometime in my journal.

 

I understand that PhD is professional life and marriage is personal. But I sense the same desperation taking my brain over now. I'm so desperate to marry a man based in this country that I don't really want to see who I'm marrying. Deep down I want to marry a quality guy, but I'm choosing to ignore red flags repeatedly. You see the connection? Similar problem happens in marriage. The longer you stay, the more difficult it is to get out. And worse... marriage is a legal relationship. We all know that divorce can get messy and costly. I'm telling myself repeatedly (and not doing a good job at it) to not rush into marriage. Its okay if I get married a year later than to marry someone because I'm turning 33. That's why I'm using example of my PhD to connect to poor choices and consequences. Considering the timeframe, really, PhD is nothing in comparison to marriage. Marriage is for lifetime. Divorce is costly and makes even a strong person depressed.

 

I hope you see the similarity. But I agree with you. I'm trying to tell myself not to let my PhD experience cloud my ability to live a happy life, but yes its difficult. I clearly need time to get over this.

[penelope13]

All you really need to do is learn the lessons and apply them for future decisions. That's all you can do anyway. You can't change the past, but you can use the experiences and the learned lessons in order to make better decisions for the future.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, I agree. I need to learn the lessons and apply them for future decisions. True.

[marshmlofluff]

I hope you see the similarity. But I agree with you. I'm trying to tell myself not to let my PhD experience cloud my ability to live a happy life, but yes its difficult. I clearly need time to get over this.

 

*nod* I understand what you are saying. It makes sense, and during my PhD I made a lot of decisions the same way you say you did--in a fear-based way. I took an advisor and stayed with him after it was clear he was not a good advisor, because in the back of my mind I thought no other advisor else would accept me. Even after graduating, I sometimes took jobs as an escape from the last job. The result was that I didn't feel I had any say in where I went or my own life, and I got frustrated.

 

But (as you know) that is not an issue with the PhD itself, or a problem with marriage...that is an issue of outlook on life, and being careful not to choose things by running from other things. As long as you identify your own patterns that you want to break, and try your best to break them, I think you will be fine.

 

If you look at your choices in men, I don't think you are quite as desperate as you believe you are. I think you've (correctly) walked away from a lot of men who would not have been good for you, and you have held onto your beliefs that you don't really want kids, and don't want to be married within a certain time frame, even though these beliefs are not the norm on the arranged marriage market.

 

And also, keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20. We all say to ourselves "if only..." and "it was so obvious that I should have done..." Seven years ago though, you made the best decision you could at the time given the information you had at hand, and based on who you were then, and what mattered to you. Even if your decision wasn't perfect--sometimes, honestly, the worst possible outcome...isn't that bad. You were poorly advised, and your PhD took an extra year, and right now it seems like the end of the world. Ultimately though, you have your degree, you got the very scary life experience of living all alone in a foreign country for seven years, which has made you strong, and you will be a pharmacist. In two years you will barely think of your advisor or your time in graduate school, but the PhD and these experiences are something you can be proud of your whole life. Think of all the people who wish they had gone to school more, and who would love to be in your shoes. For that matter, think of those women in India who are not educated, depend on their husbands for everything, and will be destitute if their husband ever leaves or dies. You aren't like that. It was a long road, but you gained something big.

 

As to divorce, it is what it is; people live through unimaginable things. No matter how bad it is, most people I know who have divorced have lived through divorce, gotten up, dusted themselves off, and found love again. I try to keep that in mind when I get afraid of commitment or intimacy.

[LAYAAN]

And also, keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20. We all say to ourselves "if only..." and "it was so obvious that I should have done..." Seven years ago though, you made the best decision you could at the time given the information you had at hand, and based on who you were then, and what mattered to you. Even if your decision wasn't perfect--sometimes, honestly, the worst possible outcome...isn't that bad. You were poorly advised, and your PhD took an extra year, and right now it seems like the end of the world. Ultimately though, you have your degree, you got the very scary life experience of living all alone in a foreign country for seven years, which has made you strong, and you will be a pharmacist.

Thank you so much for writing this. This sets me free from guilt. Just like Penny wrote... you do your best and learn from your lessons and use the knowledge next time you have to make a decision.

 

As to divorce, it is what it is; people live through unimaginable things. No matter how bad it is, most people I know who have divorced have lived through divorce, gotten up, dusted themselves off, and found love again. I try to keep that in mind when I get afraid of commitment or intimacy.

True. Thats very true. Yes, I have similar mindset about divorce. Yes, its sad, but hey... we can't foresee things. You take decisions carefully, try your best to make things work, but don't live life miserably. If its not meant to work out, so be it. Don't get shattered, life goes on.

[LAYAAN]

I'm sorry to write this, but I'm tired and broke from flying to go meet men. I'm frustrated because after all this I'm not meeting the right person, I'm feeling that I'm wasting my money and the other party isn't paying a dime to meet me, and I'm being rejected by these men. I'm angry that I'm giving more and receiving less.

 

Today is my last day at school, I have no stipend from today on.

 

There are 2 men that want me to go meet them. I dont' want to. I think they should come meet me here. I don't have money to spend on flights anymore. (I recently paid for my flight to a 2-week course in TN and also bought ticket to go to India). These men (just like all other men I've met) tell me to come to their home and stay there for 1-2 days. Thats their way of telling me "Well, I'm taking care of your stay here, am I not? I'm paying for it in a way." I don't want to stay at their place, I want to stay in a hotel instead to avoid too much togetherness and awkward feeling if there is no attraction/liking. My mom says "Well, you want to get married, you have to go. Don't wait for them to come to you. That may never happen." So, I've stopped talking to her about this. This is very frustrating.

My mom said to me today "You have to ask yourself why is it that I see a problem with every man? That means I have some issue and not them." Am I going wrong somewhere?

[annie24]

Tinu - I, as a progressive woman who enjoys pre-marital sexual relations with men, think that it's inappropriate to fly to see a man and spend the night at his house. It's just not safe. you don't even know the guy and you don't have the money.

 

Honestly? I would tell the men the truth - you just graduated with your PhD, finances are tight, you hope they can come visit you. But, you feel more comfortable staying at a hotel - you don't stay at homes of men you have never met for safety reasons. I would let them know that in the near future, you hope to be employed so finances won't be an issue, just right now, you cannot afford the hotel and flight. but that you hope that they come visit you.

 

Personally - i've said it before, I think men who are geuninely interested in you will come visit YOU. they will not make you go see them, at least of the first visit. As you saw with that guy you flew to see in chicago - you spent what, $700, and nothing came out of it.

 

I agree with whoever said it - eHarmony is a better use of your money. or any dating site. no reason you can't do that in parallel.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes, that was me who said that about EHarmony...forget eHarmony, just try a free site--at least the men you meet will mostly be local, and as I said, the most you have to lose is a few hours over some bad dinners.

 

And I agree; no way should you be solely financially responsible for traveling to see men, or staying at their house, especially after what happened with the guy in Chicago. It isn't smart, and it isn't safe. My boyfriend is a white American guy and even he didn't suggest staying at my house the first time he came.

 

In my opinion, the best thing is to be honest. What Annie said...

 

Dear X,

 

I would very much like to meet you. I have enjoyed our conversations and I think they we a lot of potential. I am really excited about getting to know you better and meeting you in person.

 

For our first visit, though, I would feel much more comfortable if you came to see me here. Do you think that would be possible? I would be happy to make the next trip.

 

Sincerely,

Tinu

 

Personally I would not yet bring up money; I would make it just an issue of feeling comfortable. Then you can discuss finances afterward.

[LAYAAN]

I am emailing 2 men who have kept me hanging and 1 has recently tried to get back in touch with me.

 

Hello X, How are you?

Got your text message and the email reply. Was busy for a while.

I appreciate your effort to reach me. But you will agree that things have been less than ideal between us. Its been more than 8 months, we have been in touch with each other. I'm looking for consistency and progress in relationship. From our interaction so far my impression has been that there is no genuine interest from your side in taking things ahead. Your interest in me seems to go back and forth. I'm convinced that we have talked enough on phone to proceed with meeting, but for some reason that has not happened, even after my suggesting that.

If you have plans to meet, I'll be happy to talk about the plan. If you don't want to proceed in that direction, that is fine as well. But I do not want to continue chatting/texting/talking on phone anymore.

Good luck to you.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Annie and Marsh. Yes, I am planning on emailing him.

[penelope13]

Maybe I am wrong about this, but it seems you are so busy trying to figure out what these guys want, if they are interested in you etc that you seem to totally forget to think about if you genuinely like any of them yourself. I can't remember ever having read a post in which you report any kind of excitement about any particular guy whatsoever.

 

Based on some of your more recent posts it seems that getting married is really only a way to escape various things, but underneath all the fears you want a relationship that is based on romance and love.

[annie24]

I agree, I haven't gotten the sense from you that you've been giddy or really excited about any of these men?

[dancing_magpie]

Tinu - please, please, please DO NOT stay with any of these men at their houses. It really isn't safe - just because you have emailed/spoken to them on the phone does not mean you know them properly. You have never met face to face - the communication you have had so far may have created a false sense of security, but you've said yourself that you feel uncomfortable with it and that's because you know that it isn't a wise move.

 

If you're going to stay in a hotel fine but as the others have said - you really shouldn't have to be making all the effort to go over and meet these men. They should come and meet you or you meet each other half way. But really if they are interested in you - they will come to see you.

 

Also what penny and annie have said is SO true... you really don't sound like you're that interested in them apart from trying to figure out their motivations. It seems that you're so concerned about bagging yourself a man, you're overlooking what kind of man you might end up with. I am so glad that I personally have never had anything to do with the 'arranged marriage market' (despite my mother's efforts). The type of men you have described here sound utterly dreadful and I am horrified that you put up with their nonsense. I am also angry for you because they seem to treat you in such an appalling manner. You are a hard-working, highly educated and independent young woman who deserves SO much more than this.

 

I really think you should try what Marsh says and use one of the free sites for now if you cannot afford one of the others. Don't dismiss them - I found my partner through one of these and we've been together for almost 2 years now.

 

Concentrate on what you want and need. How do you see your life in 5 years time? If you're unsure about kids or definitely know that you don't want them, are you certain that the best place to be looking for men is in the arranged marriage market? They are more likely to have some rigid views about what they expect from their wife-to-be...

[LAYAAN]

Thank you ladies.

Well, as Annie, Penny and magpie have pointed it out, I'm not thrilled/giddy to meet any of these men. Its partly because of how things have gone so far between us, because of the technicality of arranged marriage process (the Qs you ask each other are so run of the mill, there really is no love/attraction), and also because of my personality. There have been times when I couldn't wait to see someone and things just didn't work out.

I sometimes think that the problem is with me. Don't know. I'm trying to do some introspection.

 

But yes, none of you ladies should worry that I might stay at the guy's place. I'm strongly against it. No matter how much the guy is pushy. I wrote about it because that is the truth. Indian men I met on EH, link removed or through local matrimonial bereaus ... all had this in common. They all wanted me to stay at their place. So, this might be a cultural thing. I don't know. I don't care to know. I need to be able to sleep at night without worrying about anything else. So, yes, it gets costly, but I don't want to stay with any man in his home yet.

[annie24]

he should come visit you and stay in a hotel.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes--that makes sense. When BF came to visit me, he drove the five hours and I paid his hotel; he had more time, and I had more money, and it seemed a fair split.

[LAYAAN]

Mom called me today. I have written about this guy in my May month threads (post#1530, page#153). I emailed him that time and decided to break it off completely with him.

 

His mom called my mom today and said "My son is alone there. He is depressed because your daughter has stopped talking to him all of a sudden. He still doesn't understand why your daughter broke it off with him. What is it that he said that was so wrong? He is curious to know. He is wondering why they can't meet up and he will get to clear the misunderstanding. He emailed you, but you didn't reply him either."

My mom said "Well, I will talk to my daughter, but from what she has shared with me, your son has said hurtful stuff. So my daughter feels that its better to stop it right here instead of going ahead."

His mom called my mom again later same day and asked her what have I decided. My mom said that she couldn't get in touch with me, but she will inform her if she hears anything from me.

My mom suggests "Its been a month since you two stopped talking. So I would just let it go now instead of rehashing old things. You said you have tried to talk to him and nothing came out of it. Meeting in person would have helped, but now you will not know if he is putting up an act or he is being genuine. He will be on his best behavior now on. Its up to you to decide what you want to do. Let me know and I will tell her accordingly."

I don't know what to think of this. Should I be flattered that he is coming back after my telling him twice (once on phone and the other time in email) that I'm not interested in proceeding? Should I just go ahead and meet up because nothing else is working either? I asked my mom for some time so I can think about this.

[penelope13]

Do you like this guy?

Do you think you could love him?

If you said no to either question, what else is there to think about?

 

Whenever I see you write that mom x contacts your mom i think it's just instigated by that particular mother and not by the guy. Like your mother, the mothers of these guys simply don't want to accept that their child has turned down someone. It doesn't matter to them if there is compatibility (I'm not even talking about love), all they care about is finalizing a marriage. It's really sad that that generation of women in India has been so influence by the old system/culture that they are not even daring to dream of a different life for their children. I think it's mainly about them and what their friends/relatives may thing, but it has nothing to do with wanting happiness for their children.

[annie24]

this guy again? tell your mother to not take his mother's calls anymore. sheesh.

[LAYAAN]

Yes Annie, its the same guy again.

[annie24]

This guy sounds nuts and his mother may be nuts as well. continue to ignore....

[dancing_magpie]

So he said this to you:

 

'You are wasting my time. You are a drama queen, a spoiled brat, you have no simple manners, you are rude. Someone needs to straighten you out.'

 

How can you even entertain the idea for a second that you would like to end up with this man? Seriously there's nothing to think about - he's a jerk and will behave like one to you, as he already has done...

[annie24]

So he said this to you:

 

'You are wasting my time. You are a drama queen, a spoiled brat, you have no simple manners, you are rude. Someone needs to straighten you out.'

 

How can you even entertain the idea for a second that you would like to end up with this man? Seriously there's nothing to think about - he's a jerk and will behave like one to you, as he already has done...

 

seriously.............................

[LAYAAN]

His mom and he both say that I should meet him once and then say no if I don't find him suitable. His mom said "Sometimes people say stuff that they don't mean. He really likes your daughter." blah blah

But my mom knows what he said to me so she shared it with his mom. So now his mom knows.

 

What's there to think about this guy?... I'm desperate for marriage as I'm getting more and more rejections. I know I'll have to lower my expectations and settle. I appreciate, dancing_magpie, the kind words you wrote about me but men in arranged market are not looking for any of those qualities. They look for 2 factors 1) if they find you attractive enough (f*ability factor as 'Patti Stanger' calls it) and 2) Do you have/Can you quickly find a job in their city? That's it. The 2nd factor is more important than the 1st considering current US economy.

This man is okay with my not having a job right now. He is okay with giving me the time to transition. That's why I was willing to let go of some of the nasty stuff he has said to me. But don't get me wrong I have already cut all communication with him since that day.