Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

No Marsh, so what if it hurts me? I asked you for your honest opinion because I wanted to know where I was going wrong. I couldn't figure it out on my own. I keep things real. I encourage people to be honest with me. Thats the reason why I'm here. There is a difference between harsh/shrewd and telling the truth with an intention of helping the other person. Your post was very well-written. I didn't feel that you tried to attack my views, you only explained things from someone else's perspective. I really appreciate that.

I still have a Q for you and I will write about it.

[LAYAAN]

So, I thought about the message you wrote. I agree with it for the most part. But I still have a few doubts. This post may get much longer, but I want to share some scenarios with you and get your take on it.

 

- You mentioned that you marry a guy after you complete his evaluation as husband and father. Alright, I get that. But in typical arranged marriage market where interacting with each other for 3 months is a luxury, how can you evaluate a person?

 

I want to share 4 cases with you and I would like to know what you think about this.

1) My mom got married to my dad, typical arranged marriage. She regrets having a child with him. She told me several times "Had I not had a child, I would have simply filed for divorce and freed myself. I regret staying in marriage with this man, but because he was 37 and I was 32, I didn't think it was appropriate to wait any longer to have kids. So, I just went ahead and had a child. I never really got to know your father until after I had you, 2-3 years down into marriage, I realized that we are 2 different people who have nothing in common. That is when I decided that I'm NOT going to have any more kids with this man. If the situation gets worse, I will file for divorce. I will be able to support 1 child on my own, but nothing more than that." My parents stayed pretty much separate until I was in grade 11 or so, father kept visiting, but that was it. He would come on weekends, spend the entire day out, come home for dinner, sit in front of TV after that. My mom designed her own life and kept herself busy in that. Since my dad was rarely around, when he visited us on weekends, we all made a great effort to not fight. The problems still were there. Noone addressed them.

2) My cousin sister is same age as mine. She faced heavy rejection in marriage market, just like I did. One boy finally said yes. She said "I will adjust to any extent. I just want to get married and have a child." Alright, so they never dated, never interacted. He was 32, she was 26 when they got married. He said "Come on, you married me. Why do you want to wait to have kids then? I'm 32, how long are we going to wait? Lets have kids." 3 months into her marriage, she got pregnant. Delivered a boy, 3 years later the problems in their marriage got so bad that she tried to set herself on fire. Now, he is pushing her for divorce. She doesn't want to divorce him "You want to live separate, do that. You want to get a mistress, do that. Where do you think I can go with your child? If we get divorced, I have no chance of remarrying a decent guy if I have a child in India. If at all I remarry, I will have to marry someone who has a child. So, I'm not going to sign the divorce papers. We can live separately if you want." I'm not trying to picture her husband as a devil here. But when they started fighting few months into marriage, his friends advised him "why is your wife running her mouth? Just get her pregnant man. Thats the quickest way to shut her mouth permanently. Once she has a child, she will get down on her knees and compromise to any extent to stay in marriage with you." I also want to add something here. Her parents were out of town when my sister set herself on fire. My parents went to her place (her real sister didn't support her), her husband was fuming with anger "This biatch will get me in trouble. Sure, take her with you and lift "YOUR" child off my bed. Take him with you too. You are not going to leave him here."

3) My cousin bro got married to an ambitious engineer. She had made it clear to him that if she got an opportunity, she would take a job in Hong Kong. He was okay with it. She got the job offer. He initially said he would go with her. She came back for a short break, got pregnant. Left the job, came back to India and sat home for 2 years after. My bro didn't budge, "I told you I want a child. Now if you are pregnant, we should just keep it. Let go of your job and ambition." He admitted to us "What nonsense is this education thing? Didnt' my wife shut up and sit home with a child? (ab jo baccha hohi gaya hai, to usko leke ye chupchap ghar nahi kya baithi?) Thats what happens when you have a kid. A woman is responsible to take care of the kid."

4) My 2 good friends got married, they had told their husbands that they don't want kids yet. Few months down into marriage, they conceived, their husbands revealed their real colors "Well, we both want kids. Forget your stupid education. Why do you want to wait to have kids unnecessarily? Now since you have conceived, lets go ahead with it." These 2 girls never completed their MS. They just quit because it was impossible for them to take care of the husband and the baby.

 

Marsh, I'm not trying to portray these men as evil. If these women were so strong, they should have used additional protection instead of relying on their husbands. Alright, what I'm saying is this -

Once you are legally married to a man, he may reveal his real colors. I mean it. That is what happens in Indian marriages. He may say one thing to your face before marriage and not mean it. Considering how little you interact with each other (if you are lucky to even interact), you really dont' know the person much when you marry them. How do you evaluate a person as a husband, as a father then? All these women are sad Marsh, that they trusted their husbands. Now they have a child so instead of someone abusing their child, these women are choosing to stay in their marriage. I don't blame them. I probably would do the same for my child. At least their fathers provide for these kids, even if they don't treat the mothers well.

I hope you understand why I'm afraid of having a child. Western women may not understand what I'm talking. In Indian marriage a child ties you down to that man. You will negotiate and compromise to any extent to stay with the guy and make the marriage work. That is the reason why I'm scared. I saw how my mom suffered. I've suffered in my interaction with my dad. I'm not trying to put blame on either of my parents. They did their best, this is their best. More than anything else Marsh, I've seen how helpless my mom felt. What do you do then? Kill your soul slowly and stay with a man that you don't love? who doesn't respect you? who doesn't agree with your plan and wants to do his own thing all the time in marriage? or you look at your child and continue staying in unhappy marriage, because its better than some other man abuse your kids and you see that helplessly?

Some western women will say that I've a caveman attitude... alright. But I've come to see the truth. A man reveals his true nature to you when he knows that you are at the most vulnerable point in the relationship and you can't get out easily.

[annie24]

tinu, these are all the more reasons to finish your PhD and boards. say you do get married and 2 years in, you decide you can't stand him anymore. with a phd and a pharmacy license, you'll be able to get out and provide for yourself. it will only help you to do this.

 

i am serious about talking to your committee professors one on one and coming up with solutions to your pressing problems. we can sit around all day and talk about marriage, but seriously, get back to work!!

[marshmlofluff]

- You mentioned that you marry a guy after you complete his evaluation as husband and father. Alright, I get that. But in typical arranged marriage market where interacting with each other for 3 months is a luxury, how can you evaluate a person?

 

I don't know the answer to this. I have never been a fan of arranged marriage for exactly this reason. I guess optimally you use those three months to find out everything you can about the man, and you keep a long engagement. At least in the arranged market you can directly ask questions directly like "how much do you earn?" and "how do you feel about kids?" whereas in Western dating you just have to wonder for months until the guy comes out and says something.

 

I want to share 4 cases with you and I would like to know what you think about this.

 

I think that you live in America, where women generally do not solve the problem of a bad marriage by setting themselves on fire. I think that if a man turns out to be a rotten apple, you are free to divorce that man, children or not. That if you do, you will receive child support and possibly alimony, and that odds are that you will be able to meet another man.

 

I think perhaps it might help you, generally, to be a little more optimistic. You seem to be picking out the worst-case scenarios in every situation and scaring yourself. You seem to think you won't find a job and get a work visa on your own, so you try frantically to get married. But then you look for marriage beginning with the assumption that most men are evil and most marriages are awful, and that after you are married you have no option to leave the marriage...these assumptions make you place conditions on a marriage (three years before kids) that make an arranged marriage unfeasible. You assume a Western-style relationship will fail and therefore you don't want to try one, even though that seems a better fit for your values. You look frantically on the arranged market assuming you will never meet anyone after a certain age, and you cover up your feelings on kids because you are afraid of being rejected, causing you to be rejected more.

 

It seems to me that you are so scared of failure--in your PhD, and in marriage, that you are paralyzed. You avoid the PhD by focusing on marriage, while you avoid marriage by allowing your fears of marriage to prevent you from getting married. And the more you avoid these two things, the scarier they get.

 

(I may be projecting my own experiences onto you, but I know I myself get stuck in cycles like that sometimes. I am trying to work on it.)

[marshmlofluff]

- You mentioned that you marry a guy after you complete his evaluation as husband and father. Alright, I get that. But in typical arranged marriage market where interacting with each other for 3 months is a luxury, how can you evaluate a person?

 

I don't know the answer to this. I have never been a fan of arranged marriage for exactly this reason. I guess optimally you use those three months to find out everything you can about the man, and you keep a long engagement. At least in the arranged market you can directly ask questions directly like "how much do you earn?" and "how do you feel about kids?" whereas in Western dating you just have to wonder for months until the guy comes out and says something.

 

I want to share 4 cases with you and I would like to know what you think about this.

I think that you live in America, where women generally do not solve the problem of a bad marriage by setting themselves on fire. I think that if a man turns out to be a rotten apple, you are free to divorce that man, children or not. That if you do, you will receive child support and possibly alimony, and that odds are that you will be able to meet another man.

 

I think perhaps it might help you, generally, to be a little more optimistic. You seem to be picking out the worst-case scenarios in every situation and scaring yourself. You seem to think you won't find a job and get a work visa on your own, so you try frantically to get married. But then you look for marriage beginning with the assumption that most men are evil and most marriages are awful, and that after you are married you have no option to leave the marriage...these assumptions make you place conditions on a marriage (three years before kids) that make an arranged marriage unfeasible. You assume a Western-style relationship will fail and therefore you don't want to try one, even though that seems a better fit for your values. You look frantically on the arranged market assuming you will never meet anyone after a certain age, and you cover up your feelings on kids because you are afraid of being rejected, causing you to be rejected more.

 

It seems to me that you are so scared of failure--in your PhD, and in marriage, that you are paralyzed. You avoid the PhD by focusing on marriage, while you avoid marriage by allowing your fears of marriage to prevent you from getting married. And the more you avoid these two things, the scarier they get.

 

(I may be projecting my own experiences onto you, but I know I myself get stuck in cycles like that sometimes. I am trying to work on it.)

 

And yes, Annie is right, Tinu...all this talk of marriage is interesting--but right now I can waste time rambling and obsessing, because I finished my PhD. I think your time is more costly right now, and you should refocus on your PhD.

[marshmlofluff]

Oops I double posted as I thought it ate my post the first time...still getting used to the new forum software.

 

Annie or some mod, if you could please delete the first version (6:11 pm) and this post. Thanks.

[LAYAAN]

I think that you live in America, where women generally do not solve the problem of a bad marriage by setting themselves on fire. I think that if a man turns out to be a rotten apple, you are free to divorce that man, children or not. That if you do, you will receive child support and possibly alimony, and that odds are that you will be able to meet another man.

right, yes, I agree with this. I don't believe in setting myself on fire for what someone did to me. I was just quoting something that happened in my family, how far a bad marriage can push you.

 

I think perhaps it might help you, generally, to be a little more optimistic. You seem to be picking out the worst-case scenarios in every situation and scaring yourself. You seem to think you won't find a job and get a work visa on your own, so you try frantically to get married. But then you look for marriage beginning with the assumption that most men are evil and most marriages are awful, and that after you are married you have no option to leave the marriage...these assumptions make you place conditions on a marriage (three years before kids) that make an arranged marriage unfeasible. You assume a Western-style relationship will fail and therefore you don't want to try one, even though that seems a better fit for your values. You look frantically on the arranged market assuming you will never meet anyone after a certain age, and you cover up your feelings on kids because you are afraid of being rejected, causing you to be rejected more.

It seems to me that you are so scared of failure--in your PhD, and in marriage, that you are paralyzed. You avoid the PhD by focusing on marriage, while you avoid marriage by allowing your fears of marriage to prevent you from getting married. And the more you avoid these two things, the scarier they get.

(I may be projecting my own experiences onto you, but I know I myself get stuck in cycles like that sometimes. I am trying to work on it.)

Yes, I think you have a point here. I have been told this before. That I let myself get sucked into negative feelings and imaginary fears. To an extent I agree with what you and others have said to me about this. Please don't think that I'm defending my views. I'm only sharing whats going through my head. Remember there is a saying "Prepare for the worst, think of the best" People throw this at me all the time, but only the other half "think of the best". Sure, you first prepare for the worst case scenario, THEN think of the best. Divorce is a reality, finding out that you married a rotten apple is a reality. That is why empowering yourself by having good friends, wise counsel, completing your education, becoming financially independent, and most importantly letting go of marriage anxiety is very important. I'm telling myself this and I'm trying to improve in these areas. Its not easy.

I agree with you though, I would have finished my PhD lot faster had I never bothered to stay on arranged market or even look for love. I agree with that. So, for now I'm going to take everyone's suggestion and focus on my education. Its gonnabe hard, but I'm going to give it my best.

Thank you Marsh for patiently replying to my posts and sharing your views. It has helped me a lot.

[LAYAAN]

I have made my profile on matrimonial website invisible. I hope to keep it that way until I get my pharmacy exams out of way.

I have been thinking about this for a long time, finally gathered courage to do it.

[marshmlofluff]

right, yes, I agree with this. I don't believe in setting myself on fire for what someone did to me. I was just quoting something that happened in my family, how far a bad marriage can push you.

 

Remember, that is always up to you. Even in a situation where you feel helpless, there is always something you can do to improve it. Kids or not, you can work to improve your marriage, or you can leave it. You have that power. In my experience, everyone has flaws but most people do not mean badly; most men are not bad men. And half of any marriage is you.

 

I like this quote, which I posted somewhere else...

 

I have no way of knowing whether or not you married the wrong person, but I

do know that many people have a lot of wrong ideas about marriage and what

it takes to make that marriage happy and successful. I'll be the first to

admit that it's possible that you did marry the wrong person. However, if

you treat the wrong person like the right person, you could well end up

having married the right person after all. On the other hand, if you marry

the right person, and treat that person wrong, you certainly will have ended

up marrying the wrong person. I also know that it is far more important to

be the right kind of person than it is to marry the right person. In short,

whether you married the right or wrong person is primarily up to you.

Zig Ziglar

You say...

 

Divorce is a reality, finding out that you married a rotten apple is a reality. That is why empowering yourself by having good friends, wise counsel, completing your education, becoming financially independent, and most importantly letting go of marriage anxiety is very important. I'm telling myself this and I'm trying to improve in these areas.

I think this is a very, very, very healthy attitude and I am glad you are working toward it. So am I. Marriage (and arranged marriage particularly) is a risk, so make it a calculated one and mitigate it as much as you can. But then once you have made all the calculations take that risk without being too afraid, otherwise the fear may spoil the experience.

 

Me, I go motorbiking with BF sometimes. He's only been riding a year or so and anyway motorbikes are fairly risky. So we mitigate the risk. We gear up completely, we take back roads, we do not ride at night or when it rains. But after we have made those calculations and accepted the risk, we don't then spend the entire bike ride thinking "we're going to die! We're going to die!" because there is no point in that...you are taking the risk because the ride is fun, so why spoil it? The same way, I think it maybe is not a good idea to plan on spending the first three years of marriage treating your husband as though he might turn out to be a horrible guy...people respond to the way you treat them--treat them with mistrust and it will be reflected right back at you. Instead take the time you need to feel like he isn't a bad man before marrying him, and then once you are married I'd say to begin by giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Congratulations on making your ad invisible. Even if you only do it for a few weeks, I hope it will make you feel better. It will take off the sense of being constantly worried about who is going to write you or what to say to someone who wrote you and it will break the cycle of anxiety. It is very possible to burn out on online matchmaking...I have taken many "breaks" and generally come back feeling much better.

[penelope13]

Tinu, maybe I am a bit slow here: but all the scenarios you are describing - why the hell would you want to marry at all if you believe that is the most likely outcome (nothing to do with the kids question)?

 

When are your pharmacy exams?

[LAYAAN]

Nov mid are my exams.

Penny, I've no answer to your Q. May be I'm special ed and I need some help understanding my own self I think.

 

I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to take care of my finances right now. May be I'm thinking negatively, realistic, cautious or may be I'm going mad. I just want don't want to talk about anything. I've to call my mom and hope that she sends me some money or I'm trying to figure out how much extra charges will I be paying if I pay the balance next month. What a costly lesson!

 

My mom called me today and said that some guy called her for arranged marriage reason and said "Your daughter is in what school? Noone has even heard of that school. Is that degree even real and valid? The ranking of the university is too low. I'm not sure I can live with someone like your daughter." I have no words to express my hurt.... I don't want to talk to anyone... I don't want to say anything... I have no opinion on anything anymore.... I don't want to even write anything in my journal... I don't want to bother any of you ladies either... I feel like I've troubled all of you enough already.... I appreciate all the support, I just dont want to write anything related to marriage in my journal. I've had enough... I'm so numb today... I can't even think straight.... I just want to delete my matrimonial profile... I'm going to do that today... screw this whole nonsense... Whats the point anyways?...

[annie24]

tinu - who are these men? men who want to hire you to give you jobs or men who want to marry you? listen, put all that craziness out of your head. it's insane, do these guys think they are donald trump trying to figure out whether to hire or fire you? tell them to F off.

[marshmlofluff]

My mom called me today and said that some guy called her for arranged marriage reason and said "Your daughter is in what school? Noone has even heard of that school. Is that degree even real and valid? The ranking of the university is too low. I'm not sure I can live with someone like your daughter." I have no words to express my hurt.... I don't want to talk to anyone... I don't want to say anything...

 

He sounds like an awful man; I feel bad for whoever gets stuck with him. What a nasty thing of him to say.

 

But you--look at it this way: Be happy that you dodged a horrible man, without wasting a second of your time or even having to talk to him. The sooner you forget him the better.

[LAYAAN]

I'm hanging in there. I'm trying my best to stay positive.

I called my mom today. I didn't dare to ask her if she could give me some money. I'm most likely gonna pay the interest on balance.

Marsh and Annie, most men I've seen in arranged market are this way. This is a prototype of Indian men in arranged market. Yes, I'm happy that I don't have to be his wife.

[penelope13]

Just forget this whole marriage business for a while and focus on your exams/ PhD

[marshmlofluff]

Just forget this whole marriage business for a while and focus on your exams/ PhD

 

Totally. I didn't even know your exams were so close...just shelve the marriage thing for a while. Let your mom handle searching and ask her to only update you if she finds someone worth pursuing.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, I'm hanging in there, studying, praying to stay focused and calm.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes, I'm hanging in there, studying, praying to stay focused and calm.

 

You can do it! I'm so proud of you.

 

Anonymous posting invites criticism, and sometimes people (including me) are sometimes so critical of you in this journal that when I read it, I flinch. I am always struck that you answer so modestly and graciously, whereas in your place I would be so hurt and throw a tantrum. While you are on a short break, maybe friends here--including me--ought to also take the time to tell you the things that we admire about you. I will tell you why I personally keep coming back to your journal:

 

1. I admire that you are honest, even about things that might be embarrassing.

 

2. I admire how you are sweet to people who say things that might hurt.

 

3. I admire how brave you are to be alone in a foreign country, pursuing higher education. I admire how you have not given up and are now in the home stretch.

 

4. I admire how you keep your head up and keep trying despite the rejection. One of these days I think you are going to meet someone great; I really do.

 

5. And even though I argue, I actually admire that you are not hellbent on having kids, and feel that your life can be complete without them.

 

Tinu, it is a rough road, doing a PhD. I've had some sad times in the years since I graduated, but I just want to tell you this--so far, nothing in my life has ever felt as bad as the final semester of my PhD; not getting dumped a couple of times, nothing. Things will get better; you will see. Life changes so much for the better when you are free, and not under the total control of one person who may or may not be emotionally healthy. It doesn't even matter where you go after your PhD--you are free, you have your degree in hand, and it is a great feeling. Like having chains off. The freedom is scary, but it's great.

 

As soon as you are done I bet your life will work itself out nicely. I'd also bet a lot of money that in five years, you will look back and wonder what it was you were so anxious about.

 

Although I am not really the praying sort, I do send you good wishes just about every day.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh, your post just made my day! That was really very sweet of you to say those things. I'm so glad to have met you here. You seem to understand a lot of what I write. Its really a blessing! Sometimes cultural differences and the way you are raised can really get in the way of fully understanding someone, no matter how good the intention.

As you must have noticed by now, I'm not good at throwing tantrums, never was, but I'm here really to learn and when I write so honestly and keep it open for others to read, I'm taking that risk. A public journal really are 2 opposite terms, I think. I want to be honest, but I have this fear of getting judged by others too. Yet, I believe in providing complete picture so people know where I'm coming from. And hey, some people, like myself, learn only by a dose of tough love.

Thank you so much for the last few paragraphs. Yes, I can't imagine that free feeling. I don't know what I'll do, how I'll react. But I want to stay alive to feel that. Writing journal and keeping it open to others has helped me a lot. Its really therapeutic.

Thanks again for your kind words. I really really appreciate it. I felt like someone just gave me a warm hug!

 

I was looking to send you a PM, but I couldn't. I want to share something with you. This morning, I got up and sat down to pray. I finished my prayers, got down on my knees and said to God "You have to take this restless feeling in my heart away. You know how I'm pushing myself each day. I don't know if you are there, I don't know if you can hear me. Talk to me please, tell me that you are watching me that I'm going through a storm." I got up and saw your post. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much!

[LAYAAN]

My favorite timepass activity these days is to go to mall and browse through beauty products. Well, I wouldn't mind if browsing is where it stopped. I have 3 shampoo bottles. I have 1 soap free cleanser for my face, and an apricot scrub. At least 5 different soaps (yes, I'm not a body wash person. I like the ease of a soap). I recollect my life in India. It was so simple. Mom bought 1 huge bottle of Nyle shikakai shampoo and all 3 of us used the same thing. I'm still not very much westernized in that area, but I realized how many cosmetics and grooming products I have now. Is it really essential? And then my dorm friends and their friends gather on a lazy Friday night in one of the rooms and the favorite topic is cosmetics and new shampoos and what not. I resisted the temptation to buy a new hair straightener. I normally wear my hair natural. I already have a flat iron. That has damaged my hair enough. Why do I need another flat iron? Come on. Now, I'm spending time looking at hair care products. Its interesting. I listen to everyone black friends and white friends. My hair is neither. My white friends put so many products in their hair... I can't even keep up. My black friends do so much to straighten their hair... wow... I normally just comb my hair and put it in a bun and keep it from getting into my way constantly.

I consider myself as a wise, informed shopper. I shop only according to my needs (not desires) and I find myself struggling to resist the temptation. I can only imagine what must be happening to some other women who want to keep up.

When I was taking pharmaceutics and cosmetic preparation class, it was eye-opening. Do we really need a separate moisturizer for body and face? Do we need a separate cleanser for body and face and hair? All those shampoos that claim to do this and that... do they really? What is the purpose of using a shampoo? to cleanse... pretty much thats all they do. Everything else is really just a hype.

I told myself that I will not spend another dime on cosmetics until I completely use up what I currently have.

Most men's lives are so simple. One of female friend keeps her beauty routine simple too. Shampoo and conditioner. Soap or body wash (anything available), cleanser, toner, moisturizer for face. Puts hair in a bun... done! She is naturally good looking. Doesn't wear any make up. Keeps it really simple. I like that. I'm getting sucked into trying different brands this and that. I have subscribed to many youtube make up tutorials and I can't keep up.

[annie24]

I think you would faint if you saw my beauty and cosmetics collection, lol! it's like walking into a sephora.

[LAYAAN]

yes, I can understand. I have a few friends who have closets full of make up and this and that. Its okay. It works for you. Do you watch youtube make up tutorials? That is my favorite timepass these days. I've subscribed to "emilynoel83" on youtube. Girl, she has a ROOM full of make up. Now tell me.

[LAYAAN]

yes, finally i told her that i went to chicago to see a guy. My mom gave me a lecture for 1 hour 28 minutes. You are too naive. Ask these men to come to meet you here. Why bother meeting them? You should have just canceled your ticket. I'm glad you learned a lesson for life.... blah blah.

Alright... everything is true.

[annie24]

well, you learned, that's life. you never know. don't let her make you feel bad.

[LAYAAN]

I went online... sorta advertised myself and a girl responded. We call after 9 when I have free minutes. We had our 1st study session yesterday. I really appreciate that I have a partner to study with. I told her that. I forced myself to sit down and not waste time yesterday. It was because we were scheduled to discuss some chapters at night. She said the same thing. She said "I was feeling like falling asleep, but I couldn't because I agreed to study with you."

Well, I hope this continues and we keep studying and motivating each other. I hope its beginning for something better. I was feeling very sad yesterday and was very much tempted to go wallowing down in my sadness. But I told myself that you can feel sad some other day, for now, B is going to call you, you need to finish studying these 2 chapters. I sat down with my study books and literally had to pray several times until I finished studying. She called and the session went well. Both of us were benefited. I felt an energy boost, a high after our study session. I really hope this continues.