Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

Well, I will not spew frustration and anger here. I'm really trying to look at the bright side.

What I've learned from this whole chicago trip experience -

- if you are going to see someone and thats the sole reason that you are going there, make it clear to them in email. Men are more visual, so if they read it, it might stick into their head better.

- make it known to them that the only reason you are going is because they have agreed to pay half the fare and you can't afford this on your own otherwise, again in writing.

- You may sure that you have alternate plan in case they flake out on you.

- see things in perspective and learn to be happy and thankful. it could be worse.

- I'm glad that I stepped outside CA for a while.

- I've never traveled by train before. I'm so proud of myself that I took a chance to go to LAX by train and also traveled by train in Chicago. I followed maps accurately. I walked wherever I could. I got some exercise. Yes! I'm not afraid of taking trains anymore.

- I learned to ask for directions and follow directions (I can get easily confused, yes, even with a GPS, I can manage to get lost. Very strange!)

- I met some fun people on the train and the place where I stayed.

- I'm so proud of myself for stepping outside my comfort zone and staying in a hostel than a hotel. It was a different experience, a new one, and I like it. I made myself 2-3 meals in the kitchen. Managed to talk to tourists from different parts of the world and I'm happy for the experience.

- I'm also proud of myself that I didn't sit at the hostel sulking about the experience. I looked up the tours online, went out and had fun on my own. Good!

- I learned to survive on granola bars and water for several hours, so that's good.

- I learned from a YouTube video how to put on make up that will last for a few hours in hot weather. Yes!

- I also learned that my cell phone isn't that bad afterall. I forgot to carry the charger, but hey the battery didn't die on me. It gave me service for 4 days until I finally reached home. Fantastic!

 

Overall it has been a different experience, a new one, and its good. Don't be bitter, angry and resentful. Let go, choose to stay thankful and move on.

[LAYAAN]

Friday night I didn't do anything, but I'm so proud of myself that I took the train to LAX. Seriously, I mean it. Everytime I go to LAX, I would have to ask someone for a ride, or mostly take SuperShuttle. I can save a lot of money and time by taking the train.

I really wanted a single occupancy room, but I decided not to because of the price. I'm glad I stayed with 7 other girls from different parts of the world who are all tourists.

1 from Germany, 3 from UK, 2 from a country from South America (couldn't follow their accent easily), 1 I never got to meet. I only saw her in bed.

The only way I could do sightseeing is because I was in a hostel and they give you directions and help you out.

Saturday I stepped out on my own to explore the area. Went to the beach to walk. It was so nice. The guy called, we met and I went with him to the Navy Pier, then went to flat top grill and experienced a new way of custom making your own stir fry. Okay... thats new! great! I like the idea! After he left, I went on my own to the Sears tower and had a great time! Slept like a rock after I came back.

Sunday, they guy didn't show up. I went grocery shopping, so I could save money on food, made myself wraps and ate before I left. I took the bus, went close to the Navy Pier for the architectural boat tour. They were all sold out, I asked them where I could get in, went to that place, and yes, I got in! I took the tour, awesome! I liked it very much! Then went to Navy Pier on my own, had an ice cream. Went to Smith Museum of Stained glass windows, had a great time there! Walked back to the hostel, ate. Went to Millennium park, Buckingham fountain, attended a jazz music concert and really had a great time! Went to enquire about the train to the airport on my way back home. I had a fun day full of activities.

Monday morning woke up early and took the train to the airport. The airport was flooded due to labor day weekend. I wasn't checking in any bag but it still took me 2 hours from my place to finally reach the gate. The flight before was canceled so there was a lot of rush. Well, just glad I could get on the flight. Came to LAX, went to Union station. Found out that metrolink wasn't running because of holiday. They never said anything on their website before I left. I did check. So, I waited at the station for 4 hours to take the only Amtrak back home. It was a new experience, but hey, I loved it. I met a vegan female truck driver. She shared some recipes with me. She showed me her cats' photos. It was fun. I went to observation lounge, it was so cool! went to snack bar and got myself a veggie burger. Great! my friend came to pick me up at the train station. I came back home safely.

Overall a lot of new experience and I'll choose to be thankful for it all.

[annie24]

what were you doing in chicago?

[marshmlofluff]

what were you doing in chicago?

 

Annie, Tinu has another thread called "Vanished?" She went to meet a guy off a matrimonial site, and basically it sounds like after she went all that way to see him, he was a jerk and didn't really spend any time with her or take an interest.

[annie24]

oh my.... totally missed that thread! i read it. what an ugly situation.

 

Tinu - how is your schedule for the exams and graduation? are you doing enough work/writing??

[LAYAAN]

Now I better do. I did nothing last entire week including these 4 days.

[annie24]

I am glad that you got at least something positive out of the chicago trip. at least you got to see a new city, as you said, stepped out of your comfort zone, etc... that is all good. it's unfortunate that you didn't get a chance to really relax, it sounds like it was rather stressful. personally, i would let the man come to you for the first meeting. or at least meet halfway to see how genuine he is. especially not in your situation where you have limited time and limited funds.

 

speaking of limited time, hahaha..... have you done a 'reverse timetable' for your graduation and boards? I've done this recently. For example, in order to have a Fall 2010 graduation, you need to deposit the official completed thesis by December 15th. That means that you should have your PhD defense no later than December 7th. You need to request your warrant to graduate from your department at least 3 weeks in advance of your thesis so that means you should request the warrant by November 15th. And you need to give your committee a copy of your thesis 2 weeks in advance which means you should give it to them by November the 23rd.

 

and so on...... The dissertation group I am part of encourages this sort of backwards scheduling with graduation, because there are so many things that need to be done in order to get the graduation ball officially rolling.

[LAYAAN]

Talking about reverse timetable... yes... I did it for my pharmacy exams first. Didn't follow it. Now back to square one.

For my PhD, Annie, I have been trying to push my PI to get the paper out, he just doesn't seem to care. I need to talk to him in official setting. It is very tricky to deal with him. I can't push him too much because he may come with vengence at the time of my defense.

 

Also, I want to tell you (and all the readers of my journal) something. I would like it if I can finish my PhD ASAP and move on to the next chapter of my life. But I'm kinda happy that my PhD is taking longer. I will explain why. I'm here on a student visa. The moment I finish my requirements towards a PhD, my visa status changes to what is called OPT (optional practical training). You can stay in this country if you have OPT signed and approved by your deprtment and the immigration services. You can work for a year. In some cases, it can also be extended to 17 more months. Due to recession, now foreign students have to show a job within 3 months of their OPT start date. IF they fail to show that, they have to leave the country. That is why my intention is to pass both of my pharmacy boards, transfer scores to other states, possibly take state exams in other states and find a job before my OPT start date. So, even if I would like this PHD drama to end, I'm really trying to stay positive and keeping my eyes on the pharmacy thing.

 

I'm going to be honest. I'm glad I applied for and got into PhD program. Had I not tried, it would have always been on my mind "I should have tried", but now I've tried it, I am not sure I can pursue research for living. I have serious questions about that in my heart. Alright, during the process, there were very few moments where I was really excited about being in PhD and with the prospects. The reason why I say this is because I don't want to be a postdoc. I don't want to start my own lab. I don't want to do anything with reasearch anymore. There is a positive aspect to all the challenges that I've gone through during my PhD though. It is that I have come to understand myself a little more closely than I previously did. What matters to me in the big scheme of things, Annie, is that I live a balanced life. I'm not okay with working under constant stress, uncertainty, and instability. I worked as a pharmacist before (I've mentioned this before somewhere in my journal). I've come to appreciate the structure of that job. As exciting as research is (don't get me wrong, I like the intellectual part of being in research field), I'm tired of the uncertainty it brings with it. "Will my next experiment go okay? Will my paper get accepted? Will my next grant get funded/renewed?" I carry this with burden me wherever I go. Now, someone will say, "hey, thats the nature of research field in this country. You can't have only 1 and not the other." Alright, I didn't know that before. Now, I know it. I want stability. I want predictability. I'm really looking in terms of lifestyle and if I can do this for long-term. This may sound ridiculous, but I want to work only for 8-9 hours a day and be able to leave my work behind when I leave the workplace. May be this is too much to ask for. I don't handle stress very well. I can if its short time, but I don't want constant stress in my life. And I'm not trying to give excuses, I get anxious very easily and that is my nature. I can't fight it. I have to work with it. That means making right choices in terms of profession. Like I said, I'm glad I tried my hand at PhD program. It has been a long yet very fulfilling journey, but given a choice, I would not pursue this to make living out of it. Hope this makes sense. So, really I want to try my best to complete my pharmacy exams and get licensed before my OPT starts and that is what I would really want to do. I may teach, do some research (I like doing reserach. I just don't like the uncertainty and financial challenges that research career brings). I had to go through the process to know this and to really feel it personally. If someone else would have told me this, I wouldn't have listened to them. Now, because I've gone through this, I have a different perspective.

 

Sorry, that was a loong reply to your message. Thank you for reading. Feel free to comment.

[Ellie2006]

After reading your latest entry, I feel as though that the reason for your self-sabotage regarding the dissertation is: you really arent all that invested in getting a ph.d. What you are interested in is staying in the U.S. (which the grad program is allowing you to do, on a student visa). And this obsession with finding a husband ASAP is intricately tied to your desire to stay in the US since marrying a man (American (citizen) or Indian with a H-visa or a green card) will qualify you to stay as a spouse. This perhaps is why you are prioritizing finding a husband, during this critical point of the dissertating stage, at the risk of postponing your defense/completion of your degree.

 

I will respect how you feel about not wanting to go back to India/staying in the US; you feel what you feel, enough said.

 

But I believe extending your dissertating period indefinitely as you are now, whether you are doing it deliberately or not, consciously or unconsciously, it's really a double-edged sword. I dont have any statistics to support my claim, but the longer it takes, the more likely it is that one won't finish. Plus, wouldnt you be hurting your chances in the job market as well?

 

What I can suggest now is that you do a very detailed risk-benefit analysis of your decision. I am a worrier by nature but I do feel like you're playing with fire here.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Ellie. Yes, you are right to some extent. I guess, the more and more I'm communicating with you all (through the posts), the more it makes me feel that finishing PhD is the ideal way to go than to delay it, than to invest time and energy in finding a husband, etc.

I agree that finding a husband is a task that has gotten in my PhD journey and has delayed it. I agree with that.

But I'm not looking to get married just so I can stay in the US. I want to get married mainly because I want companionship. I am tired of coming to an empty home. I want a companion. I've lived alone too long.

[annie24]

I think ellie hit on some really revealing points - it really does seem like tinu, there is an advantage to you 'spinning your wheels' so to speak.

 

In the sciences, I do see some people take quite a long time, but they eventually finish. those that don't finish grad school usually drop out within the first 1-3 years. after year 5, they are there until the end. but there is a penalty for staying in grad school too long. for example, at my institution, i have to graduate within 5 years of attaining dissertator status, otherwise, i would have to retake my prelims. NO WAY!!! blah. That is not a good scenario. I guess that is the university's way of making sure we leave.

 

Tinu - have you had a committee meeting in a while? It might be a good idea to talk to the other profs on your committee, either individually or together, and ask what can you do with regards to the paper situation. If it's been rejected 4 times, i bet it needs some serious additions in data, not necessarily keep shopping around different journals. I would really think of a way you can beef up that paper, perhaps with a collaboration, so that it is publishable in a solid journal.

[LAYAAN]

The PI's ego stands in the way, Annie. I have been telling him that we can get in touch with another lady on campus. (I've mentioned this in my journal also). she is well-published in our area. My prof has no experience and expertise in it, but his ego is hurt when I suggested that we humbly approach her and ask her for her guidance in this matter.

I don't know what to do. I'm trying to call a committee meeting to see what we can do about this.

[annie24]

or just go and talk to your committee members individually in their offices. instead of calling a formal meeting.

[LAYAAN]

It is so hard for me to keep worries at bay in terms of marriage. I crave companionship, stability, someone to spend my life with, someone to come home to. I really don't know why is it so difficult for me to find a man? My expectations are not over the top. Yes, people tell me "don't think that its about you." Alright, then who is it about? If I'm getting turned down serially, for last 10 years, can you tell me how to not take rejection personally? Can you tell me how is it not about me? Yes, settling is very tempting, but you can settle for someone provided they are ready to marry you in first place. Even that isn't happening. I wish I could find a bug in my brain that causes me to feel restless and want to get married. I would kill that bug.

 

I wish God was more approachable. I really wish I could see him, I could talk to him. I really would ask him if this is not his will for my life. I swear, I would quit trying. I would even get a hysterectomy done and design a new plan for my life. Why are some so ridiculously normal and average things so difficult in my life? Why? God, if you are listening, please take my desire for companionship away if you are not going to provide a man. The men that I want to be with, don't want anything to do with me. The men that I don't care for are only available. Tell me how to not settle God, tell me. Where the heck is my spirit guide during all this emotional turmoil? If I'm your child why wouldn't you talk to me?

 

Many times I have wondered how I'm going to live the rest of my life with this unrest in my heart. I look at the calendar and think "Its been only 30 years? How am I going to spend remaining 50 years of my life with this heavy burden on my heart?" Suicide is not an option. I don't believe in it. I believe that I would come back to live the allotted portion of my life. I feel so alone. I can't begin to express.

 

Every single time I've started anything with a man, I've prayed a simple prayer "God, thank you for this opportunity, thank you for hope, thank you for an ego boost that someone is still interested in me. Give me calmness of mind and wisdom to deal with this guy. Please open the door if this is your will. If its not, please shut it. I don't need to waste my time and get hurt, but if you have a lesson waiting for me in this situation, help me learn that." Every single time I've prayed this way, something or the other has gone wrong and things didn't proceed. Don't tell me God's romantic complaints department is this quick, seriously? I wonder sometime, how long am I going to continue trusting you God and when I pray sincerely, you close the doors and make me go through this roller coaster of hope and despair. Do you really answer all prayers? all requests? and this quick? seriously? Its amazing the power that you have though, I fight with you, I grumble, I even cuss at you and crawl back to you sheepishly again. I hate that I can't do this on my own and that I have to rely on you. Faith is supposed to make this journey easy, but its not. Hope you see that God.

[LAYAAN]

Quote:

I don't know where God is leading me in this quest for companionship. I recently had an argument with another man in arranged market. He wants to get married ASAP, same issue of kids again. He reminded me that I'm not a "barely legal/teenage" girl of 20-21 yrs and that I should be "aware" of my age when I'm telling "others" adamantly that I want to take the decision of having kids after a couple of years of enjoying my marriage. He also said "So, you think your way is a better way, huh?" It hurts so bad. He also said "I'm not telling you to follow "my" plan. Its about greater good as a family to have kids sooner than later."

I think he is entitled to his opinion and to look for whatever he is looking for. But I don't think anyone should be arguing with you, or being rude and patronizing, so early on in an interaction.

 

Don't get your feelings hurt; think of it this way--you are a potential candidate, he is hoping things work out with you, and then he encounters this roadblock. So he is trying to convince you to change your mind. His tactics for doing so were clumsy and insulting, certainly, and that is the part that I don't like. If that is how he deals with conflict, by telling you how you should feel, that's kind of annoying. It's not really his place to decide what the greater good is. Maybe *you* feel the greater good is not to bring a child into a marriage until you are sure the marriage is solid.

 

And from your end, if men keep saying the same thing to you over and over again, you may have to adapt your outlook. I know that in my case, because I definitely do want kids I would be frustrated if I did not know where a man stood on the issue. If he said "no" it would be easy; I would walk away and not waste my time. But it is unclear what to do when someone says they are immutably unsure...that they don't really know whether they want kids, and won't really know until they've been married for a few years, etc. One gets frustrated, and wonders "why can't this person make up their minds about the important things in life before entering the dating/marriage pool?" For me I figure that a guy had 30+ years to figure out what he wanted in life; why couldn't he do it before he started dating/talking to me?

 

Remember how you felt when you met the fireman who said he was "not sure" about getting married; you left.

 

I guess I am just trying to see things from the mens' perspective in case it helps you somehow. If you don't want kids or are unsure this is such a big deal on the arranged market that I think you would save yourself a lot of trouble by being up front about your feelings before you get to the point of talking to someone on the phone.

 

I also will gently remind you that now is not the time you should be upsetting yourself with these conversations. Remember, focus on your PhD.

[LAYAAN]

There are a few points I would like to discuss in your latest reply to my post.

 

1) Thank you for reminding me about why I left the fireman. It helps me understand why some men are feeling the same way about me.

 

2) I understand that right now is not a good time to think about anything other than PhD, school, pharmacy, etc. But I think otherwise. It is possible to keep telling myself, don't worry about any of this right now, just focus on your work. Alright, I do that say for 1 more year. I don't do any introspection about "what I want from my marriage, the timeframe, kids, etc." Remember what you said in your post, why couldn't you come to a conclusion in 30+ years? The major reason is this... because life was so busy, with school, staying afloat and I was constantly in survival mode, especially for last 10 years. I never got time to sit down and think about what I really wanted. People in arranged marriage won't buy this nonsense. Similarly, I feel even if I don't get married in next year or so, I must know what is it that I want, what are my thoughts in terms of having kids when I'm really ready to jump back into the matrimonial/dating market. That is why I want to talk to others, I am reading books, I'm doing whatever I can to come to a conclusion about kids issue.

 

I'm trying to understand the kids issue here. I'm thinking out loud so please bear with me.

Alright, men want to know if I want to have kids or not. In all honesty, this is what I feel. There are a few Qs here -

1) Do I want kids?

2) Do I want kids with you?

3) What do I consider to be ideal time to have kids by?

 

1) Do I want kids? No, I don't desire kids on my own. I do not want to be a single mom ever. Kids is too much work. I want a man to provide (at least contribute) for his kids. I want him to share the duties of raising a child if he wants kids. Its too much responsibility to handle on my own. I think your life can never become carefree once you have a child. Once they are born, everything is about them. You have to consider health, future and well-being of your child in every single decision you take. They are costly. There is no telling that they will love you back, that they would be appreciative of what you have done for them. Its selfish to bring a child into this world hoping that they will love you back, hoping that they would take care of you because you took care of them. So, why have a child? If I could do my will, I would never have a child. I would invest that time, finances, energy into something more meaningful. I would rather give to orphanage.

 

2) Do I want kids with you (a man)? How can I tell that today from such a limited interaction with you? I will only be able to tell better if I've lived with you as your wife for at least a couple of years. Why is it so difficult to accept this as a valid answer? Even if I was dying to have kids, I would still give the same answer. Its just like marriage. I am dying to get married. Yes, I really want companionship, but do I want to marry you? I don't know that, I need to find out more about you to answer that Q. Everyone on ENA bashes women who are too focused on marriage and just want to get married. How is it different from women going around saying "I want kids. Oh I so want to have kids." So, you will have them with anyone? No, right? Now, just because you married a man, doesn't mean that marriage will be successful. So, you need to see what kinda person he is before you actually have a child with him. Its simply because child complicates leaving a bad marriage. Even if you divorce, your ex is still the child's father and you will be connected to his father in some way after your divorce.

 

3) Whats with the timeline? Noone can predict success of marriage. You can use some indicators, but you can't predict anything with 100% accuracy. That is why I said that living with someone for 2-3 years in marriage should be a good indicator. Again, the guy may change after 5-6 years and you may get divorced and still have his child. What are you gonna do then? Nothing. Its all about taking calculated risk. Its just like crossing a street with eyes closed. What is the chance of getting hit? someone might say "higher than if you would follow traffic rules." Alright... people follow rules and still get hit by a car (I had an accident recently), what do you call it then? That's all I'm saying. You can't predict what will happen, you can only practice caution. Why bother having a child with someone when you don't know what kinda husband he is?

 

4) Well, what if you run out of time to have a healthy, biological child? Would you regret being "adamant" about following your gut, your heart, blah blah?

I don't think so. These are difficult Qs.

a) Would you have a child with your husband when you are not at peace with the decision, but you are afraid that your husband may leave you or it may start fights in your marriage?

b) Would you have a child with your husband out of fear that if you wait too long you may never have a healthy, biological child?

There are no right or wrong answers here. Its all about calculated risk and what kinda loss are you willing to take on depending on your answer to the Q.

In all honesty, this is what I feel today... I do not want to have a child with a man unless I feel happy, content with the relationship. Alright, what if you are past the age to have a healthy biological child?... well, thats fine for me. I would not have a child then. Would you regret waiting? No, I don't think so. If by the time I really felt like having a child with my husband and the time has run out, I may consider adopting (with my husband's involvement in the decision) or volunteer in orphanage, etc. I am willing to risk never having a biological child than to have it out of fear of running out of time. This is where I stand today. My views may change completely down the road, but I don't think they will. I think that my thinking is rational, logical. Its not emotionally driven. I am aware of the risk and loss.

 

5) Why bother getting married then?

Because thats what gives me comfort. I recognize a romantic relationship with a man, companionship to be more valid and comfortable for me under the tile of marriage. I would feel like a "ho" if I'm living with a man without marriage, endlessly.

I really am marrying for companionship. Not so I can sit on a couch and eat bon-bon and get fat while the guy works to provide for me. Not so I can finally have kids with someone and think that my life is now stable. If God has saved a man for me, I really would want to get married for companionship. I want to have a friend, I want to come home to someone.

 

Marsh, your comments are appreciated. I've written my views very honestly from my heart. No pretense here. I would like to hear what you think. Please tell me if you think I'm going wrong somewhere.

[marshmlofluff]

Introspection is good, but you have to do it in a way that doesn't lead to an ever-increasing cycle of anxiety, and interfere with your finishing your PhD. And also I think that introspection needs to be complete before you really seriously look for someone on the arranged market. Ideally I would suggest you finish your PhD, while doing so take some time to think about what it is you want in life, figure out what your next career step is and where you will be living, and then have all these meetings and phone calls with people. It is hard to find someone whose life goals match yours if you don't know what your own life goals are.

 

You know, just as I know, that 99% of men on the arranged market are there because they are traditional. They are looking to get married to a traditional girl in the immediate future, and start a traditional family. If you aren't entirely certain that this is what you want, I don't think the arranged market is the best market for you...I don't see much sense in talking to person after person who is going to reject you because you aren't sure you want kids; it is just going to make you more upset and frustrated.

 

As others have said, it is hard to find Western-style love--a man who loves you for who you are, appreciates your education, is willing to wait for you to finish it, and is open-minded about kids on link removed. If you want the benefits of a Western-style relationship, you have to take a risk, invest the time, get physical, and likely get your heart broken a few times--for that matter, even after you are married, the odds of divorce are also much higher. Looking for romance on link removed is like looking for an arranged marriage on PlentyofFish...yes, you can find it, but it's going to be very hard. Most likely one is not going to be able to conduct a Western-style relationship with a Western-style man on the time scale and with the guarantees of an arranged marriage.

 

For the exact same reason that you do not want to accept as a valid answer that a man like the fireman might want to take two or three years to decide whether he wants to get married at all, or whether he wants to marry you, and feels that he can only make an informed decision if he has lived with you as a girlfriend for a few years. There is no guarantee that a relationship will work, but before entering a relationship, you want to be certain that the two of you at least share the dream of getting married.

 

The same way, men who want kids probably want to know that you share their dream of having kids. Everyone understands that marriage is a risk, but if you start out wanting different things, there is no point in getting married. Not every boat makes it accross the ocean, some of them sink. But if a boat isn't at least attempting to go where you want, what's the point in getting on?

 

So your answer is a valid answer, just not one that is appealing to the majority of men on the arranged market, who do want kids.

 

And maybe part of the issue is that your concept of the first few years of marriage as a time to evaluate a man as a husband and potential father sounds a lot like most people's concept of dating (or engagement). To me, extreme caution is fine before marriage, but it is not the attitude I want a partner to have after I have committed my life to him, and he has committed his to me. I don't want to be in a marriage feeling as though I am on probation, and that I will only be allowed to have kids if I successfully pass. I would prefer that my partner already believe that I will be a good wife and mother, and have that much faith in me.

 

Your overall attitude sounds resigned--"well, kids are a lot of work...I'll have them if the guy insists, and I'll only start trying in my mid-30s once I'm sure he isn't going to disappear." That isn't an appealing attitude to someone who is enthusiastic. I mean, if you start out this ambivalent, how are you going to feel when you are changing diapers and sleep-deprived?

 

In solid marriages I have seen where both partners are enthusiastic about kids, they may not have children immediately, but they are excited about, and even plan for the kids from Day 1. They work toward making their marriage and marital home a suitable place for having and raising kids. They do not begin with the attitude that the marriage is likely to fail, and only if it doesn't then will they consider children.

 

Personally for me at age 31, that is the spirit I want in a man, not "well, I might maybe want kids in five years, assuming our marriage doesn't fall apart first." I want someone who shares my enthusiasm, because kids are hard work. What if he or I can't conceive--if he starts out lukewarm, is he going to be OK with years and tens of thousands of dollars spent in invasive fertility treatments or adoption costs?

 

For me personally, I try to evaluate men as potential husbands and fathers. I would not marry someone unless I thought there was a near 100% chance that he would be good at both, and that is why I am still single. I would hold off on committing to a man, as I am holding off now. But once I had committed my life to a man I would not treat him as someone I did not trust--"well, I will have kids IF you are a well-behaved husband for three years."

 

After meeting and dating many men, I am not sure I would need to live with someone a few years in order to gauge those qualities; you can tell about a person relatively quickly if you keep your eyes open. The guy you flew to Chicago to meet was flaky--you knew that before you got on the plane, just from talking to him.

 

About six months into my present relationship, I can clearly see that my present BF takes very good care of his pets; he is responsible, he is commitment-minded, he is careful. All in all, I would be willing to take a risk that he would be a good father.

 

My logic at least is that you should not marry someone until you are reasonably certain he is going to be a good husband, and furthermore once you are in the marriage half of making it a good marriage is *your* responsibility to be a good wife. Given that, hopefully it does not take three years to figure out whether someone is potentially a good husband or not...at least, not if you marry in your mid-30s and want a healthy, biological child.

 

I am not saying you are right or wrong, I am just saying that this attitude is not appealing to the majority of men on the arranged marriage market. Determining ahead of time that you plan to take several years post-marriage to figure out whether you are happy and want kids, while your biological clock runs down, is not fine with men who know for sure they are interested in having a couple of children. As you know, Indian culture is family-oriented, and a large part of people getting married is that they do want biological children, and generally more than one. They are optimistic that they can make the relationship work. They want someone who feels the same way.

 

If you are marrying only for companionship, and not to have children, then there is no reason on Earth to feel like you need to get married NOW NOW NOW.

 

Joining your life and household with a man is difficult--it is hard work. My BF is at my house two weeks a month and it has been such a huge, massive adjustment for me...it is definitely not wine and roses. We have differences on everything from personal hygiene to diet (he is strict vegetarian and I am the opposite) to personal space to pets to how we wash the dishes. Overall it is nicer than being single, but it is still very difficult--every single thing is a negotiation and compromise. I don't feel like my life has done a 180 from meeting someone, or that any major problems have been solved. I still feel lonely sometimes and I still feel sad sometimes, and basically my overall happiness is very similar to what it was before I met him, it's just that the difficulties are different; now instead of being lonely you have to adjust to another person's way of life, and deal with fighting and being let down and other things.

 

I will tell you this--I think the best predictor of how happy someone is going to be in a marriage is how happy she is before she is married.

 

Finally, I would just say this. Most people on here seem to agree:

 

(1) You should be focusing on your PhD right now.

 

(2) With your particular set of expectations, the arranged market is not the best place to look for a suitable partner. Either you need to adjust your own views on some things, or you need to be willing to take a risk.

 

(3) Marriage is not a miracle cure for anxiety, loneliness, and depression; it may make those problems worse.

 

I will add this:

 

(4) If you insist on looking now, and looking on the arranged market, be honest in your profile about what you want. Say honestly that it is not a priority for you to have a biological child, that you aren't sure you want one, and that either way you want to wait a few years and enjoy marriage.

 

That way you will weed out the men who do not match up with you on the basics, before you get to the point of annoying phone conversations where they try to convince you that you should have kids soon. I don't understand why you don't want to do that; the end result of what you are doing now appears to be that you are meeting incompatible men, they are turning you down, and you are getting more and more frustrated.

 

Anyway just my $0.02. I am sure other people have other thoughts.

[LAYAAN]

wow, the forums have new look. Well, I guess I liked previous one better, or may be I was used to it so I felt comfortable with it. Hope I get used to this soon too.

[LAYAAN]

Anu, why can't I see your journal in the journals section? Am I missing something?

[LAYAAN]

"For the exact same reason that you do not want to accept as a valid answer that a man like the fireman might want to take two or three years to decide whether he wants to get married at all, or whether he wants to marry you, and feels that he can only make an informed decision if he has lived with you as a girlfriend for a few years. There is no guarantee that a relationship will work, but before entering a relationship, you want to be certain that the two of you at least share the dream of getting married.

 

The same way, men who want kids probably want to know that you share their dream of having kids. Everyone understands that marriage is a risk, but if you start out wanting different things, there is no point in getting married. Not every boat makes it accross the ocean, some of them sink. But if a boat isn't at least attempting to go where you want, what's the point in getting on?

 

So your answer is a valid answer, just not one that is appealing to the majority of men on the arranged market, who do want kids.

 

And maybe part of the issue is that your concept of the first few years of marriage as a time to evaluate a man as a husband and potential father sounds a lot like most people's concept of dating (or engagement). To me, extreme caution is fine before marriage, but it is not the attitude I want a partner to have after I have committed my life to him, and he has committed his to me. I don't want to be in a marriage feeling as though I am on probation, and that I will only be allowed to have kids if I successfully pass. I would prefer that my partner already believe that I will be a good wife and mother, and have that much faith in me."

 

Thank you so much Marsh for writing a detailed and thought-provoking reply. You have answered pretty much all my Qs and cleared away my doubts in this 1st paragraph. You are right. Thanks again for bringing the analogy of fireman's behavior here. I can associate. I understand now.

"Before starting a relationship you want to make sure that both of you share a common goal, common dream." Very true. I remember telling him "You don't need to marry me. I understand that. If you feel I'm not the right person for you during dating process, I completely understand that you wouldn't want to marry me. But I do not even want to meet someone who doesn't believe in marriage, or is not sure that he wants to get married. I believe in marriage system. I desire to get married to a decent man."

Now I understand what you mean by shared goals, shared dreams, and enthusiasm. You are right, why bother getting together with someone who isn't enthusiastic about having kids?

 

I also understand much better now when you talk about "evaluate before marriage, not after marriage. You marry someone who you think will make a good husband and father." I heard similar stuff from a man recently (who argued with me about kids issue). He said now when I get married, its gonnabe full and final. I'm going to make sure that I dont' end up marrying a wrong person. So, there is no chance of going back. When I marry, I know I want to spend rest of my life with this person, she will be a good wife and a mother, and that's also a reason why I said that I WILL have kids with her immediately after marriage. There is no going back. After reading your reply, I feel much better. I feel I can understand the guy better now.

 

Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate it Marsh!

[anu1560]

Anu, why can't I see your journal in the journals section? Am I missing something?

 

pm'ed you.

[marshmlofluff]

Wow...I can barely figure out how to reply to you with this new forum look...but I'm glad if I was of any help, Tinu!

[penelope13]

Marsh this was an excellent post! Tinu I hope you get something out from that.

 

As to your question about God's lesson: is it not possible that the message might be: focus on your PhD now, it's not the right time for you to meet your husband now? Nearly every religion teaches that God's will/ timeframe may be very different from what you have in mind for yourself.

[LAYAAN]

Oh yes, that is what my God's will seems to be too.

Also, one more thing. Before I came to the US, I had already experienced 3 yrs of heavy rejection in marriage market. That time I begged God to get me out of that situation and help me start my further education. I promised him that I would not look back and ask him again for marriage. Well, what should I say... I'm ashamed to admit that I did ask him about my marriage... multiple times!

 

But yes, you are right, Marsh's post is loaded with message. She has patiently and logically answered all my Qs. I really appreciate that. I can't thank her enough. That was an eye-opening message.

[marshmlofluff]

Thanks Penny, and thanks Tinu. Tinu, I hesitated to write that message as I thought it might hurt your feelings. But I guess I thought it might help as far as trying to understand things from another perspective.