Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

"Your direction, not intention, decides your destination."

I was listening to a head pastor's interview and this was his message today.

[annie24]

what does that mean?

[LAYAAN]

Ya, it can get confusing.

 

 

 

You have to take the statements separately first.

- Direction determines destination.

- Intention does not determine destination.

 

Simply put, a student desires to join medical school. He has not been studying for MCAT when rest of the crowd diligently put in efforts and cleared their MCAT. So, his intentions, even though good, won't get him into medical school. He is wasting time getting angry at those who got in, in a yo-yo relationship and getting angry because its unproductive and stressing him out, etc. So, even if his intentions are good, the direction he is currently going in, if he continues down this road, will not get him into med school. So, thats what the pastor said "Its dumb to ask 'how did I get here?' Well, if you had asked any decent person to evaluate your actions in reference to your goal, he would have told you that you are on the wrong path. It doesn't matter what you want unless your intentions and your directions align with the goal."

[LAYAAN]

He emailed "Thanks for sharing your perspectives. I did get a clear picture of your situation and felt the same as you do (about our priorities not aligning at this time in life). I wish you the best"

 

He has canceled interest in me on the matrimonial website.

[marshmlofluff]

He emailed "Thanks for sharing your perspectives. I did get a clear picture of your situation and felt the same as you do (about our priorities not aligning at this time in life). I wish you the best"

 

He has canceled interest in me on the matrimonial website.

 

Good; your life agendas didn't match, and he wasn't willing to compromise on anything so that you could finish a degree that was important to you. The less time wasted, the better.

[LAYAAN]

Yes Marsh. You being of Indian descent can probably understand what I say here.

 

You know, I've never yet met a man in arranged marriage system that said "okay, no worries, complete your education." Every man wanted me to yield to his plans. My mom is not surprised to see this. She said thats natural for most men. She is right.

My 1st ex wanted to get married by a certain time. He found a woman who agreed to that. My 2nd ex wants to wait at least a couple of years to talk marriage. He will find a woman who is okay with that.

Thats why I use the term "surrender". As a woman you basically surrender to someone's will. If you don't thats okay, but make sure you have enough qualifications to hold by your rules and conditions. Otherwise, like me and like some of my friends you only get old and noone wants such item.

I hate to feel this way about me.

Time and time again, such incidences have made me realize that I will have to compromise somewhere if I want to get married. I don't think I will be able to find a guy on my terms and conditions.

[LAYAAN]

This is what I have realized in life -

 

Women go looking for love and a man suitable for marriage.

Men don't go looking for a woman they can marry. Once they fall in love and can maintain a consistent interest in a woman, that is when they start thinking about marriage.

 

That is the key difference in their attitudes. Thats why a man can't answer "where this is headed?" Thats why women look like they are on marriage mission.

[penelope13]

Tinu, sorry if I am being too much of a scientist, i.e. logical/rational about things, but: why do you post all these great epiphanies/ thoughts/ teachings etc - but then don't take them to heart at all?

 

I'd really like to understand where this block in your thinking/choice of actions is coming from and how to overcome it.

[LAYAAN]

Tinu, sorry if I am being too much of a scientist, i.e. logical/rational about things, but: why do you post all these great epiphanies/ thoughts/ teachings etc - but then don't take them to heart at all?

I'd really like to understand where this block in your thinking/choice of actions is coming from and how to overcome it.

I was thinking about it myself when I was writing this post.

"Can I apply this logic to my life and the decisions that I have taken/am taking?"

Not always. I'm struggling with myself Penny. I'm struggling to let go of that marriage worm in my head and focus on my education. That is the biggest struggle of my life. I've been struggling with it since last 10 years everyday. Everyday I tell myself "Hang in there. Focus on what's in front of you today. Focus on your education." Its challenging.

 

I have been asking myself where exactly is the block in my thinking too. I'm searching for that answer.

 

BTW, I wrote about it because I didn't want to lose this great piece of advice. I wanted to write it in my journal so I can refer back to it.

[LAYAAN]

Penny,

Is it wrong to want a companionship? Why exactly do you think I'm going about it illogically?

Worrying is wrong. I admit that.

Not paying attention to studies is wrong. I get that.

But I'm not running after men. I'm not sleeping with men. I'm not going with wrong men just wanting to get married. So, what exactly is wrong about my actions?

 

The block in understanding (as I've mentioned before also) comes from -

my age

my ethnicity

limitations I (think, I) have

[LAYAAN]

Last evening I was bored, so made myself some thai iced tea. Figured out, I was tossing and turning at night, couldn't fall asleep. Finally I did. Now up.

 

link removed

 

I told myself that I will try my best to stay focused on today and not worry about my marriage/future.

I will take steps to make today count towards my big goals of graduating and getting pharmacy license.

I will think +ve/productive thoughts.

I will mind my business only.

I will pray to God when things get rough.

[penelope13]

There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship. There is nothing wrong with wanting a PhD.

 

However, where you go wrong (sorry to be so direct, but I hope by now you know that I don't mean to bring you down thus that I don't have to sugar coat things anymore) is the following:

 

a) I think it is essential for people to be realistic and honest about their abilities, capabilities as well as their restrictions: you have shown ample of times that you cannot deal with the stress of both the PhD and the marriage market at the same time. This is nothing to be ashamed of, however it is quite irresponsible to ignore this fact. Since you currently can't afford to focus one week on one thing and one week on another, you have to make a decision what is currently more important to you to invest your energy into. But both does NOT work for you.

 

b) Wanting a relationship is something that the majority of people aim for in their life. And of course you like everyone else deserves this. However there is a right and a wrong way to go about it, which has nothing to do with if you are choosing the arranged market route or the western style dating route. Having standards and deal breakers is fine (although you should be flexible enough to reevaluate them from time to time, since your life/ personality/needs might change over time). However being negative, full of anger, resentment, having a sense of entitlement is NOT the way to go about it. Why people don't understand that other people can pick up on this, I don't fully understand myself. You could be the nicest, most gorgeous person in the world, the aforementioned feelings would not help you to find and maintain a healthy/ happy relationship (we will not talk about other type of relationships, since you know you could have someone any time, if you were willing to disregard any kind of compatibility, chemistry, etc). I have mentioned it more than once: given your emotional/ mental state at the moment, I highly doubt that you would even recognize your Mr. Right.

 

 

Another thing I believe that is wrong in your approach (many people do the same thing) is to expect something from a partner, what you are not willing/ able to do for yourself: how can you expect someone to love you, when you are not willing to love yourself? How can you expect someone to take away all the stress in your life, because you can't deal with it yourself? Yes of course your partner should support you and love you, but the operating word is SUPPORT: i.e. enhancing you in all your endeavors and challenges, not taking on the challenges in your place.

 

Why I mention sense of entitlement: not running after men, not sleeping with men, not getting involved with attached men does NOT merit you a perfect partner. When it comes to finding the right person, you do not get "plus points for the things that you do right", so that you can 'equal' out things were you are not perfect enough.

 

People who are extremely anxious often believe it shouldn't be such a big deal for someone else to deal with it, because they have to deal with it every waking moment. However, having to deal with an anxious person requires a whole lot more energy and focus than a non-anxious person and many people are simply not willing to invest the required energy (especially if they themselves are not anxious at all), often it is perceived as a waste of energy investment.

 

You are getting a Phd in natural sciences, right? One of the things you are supposed to learn during your PhD is how to design an experimental plan: i.e. properly form your hypothesis, identify what the right controls are and then define what the right experimental steps are etc. When you are doing this you have to take some other factors into considerations such as your budget and the specific machines you have available and the techniques you already know or could master in a reasonable amount of time. It would be fantastic if we all had unlimited funds, all the state-of-the-art technology and would be able to master any and all skills. But anyone knows that this is totally unrealistic and that you have to design your experiment according to the resources that are available to you. - In real life and when it comes to finding a relationship it is the same principle: we all want to be a perfect 10 lookwise, be intelligent, have no psychological challenges and have the most alluring personality ever, unfortunately no one is perfect. So what we have to do in order to find a partner is to work out the strategy that will work out best for my particular personality, situation in life, and goals. No point in complaining about what I don't have, rather focus on how to make it work with what I got.

 

A good experimental design starts with looking at the hypothesis: what is it really that I want, why do I want it; what are the assumptions my hypothesis is based on. For you this would translate into: you want to get married, why do you want to get married? - I am venturing a guess that you currently only believe that getting married is your biggest and ultimate goal, actually I believe what your true goal is, is to escape stress from a number of different sources and marriage is the route you think will accomplish this for you. Since you are motivated by urgency, your methods are influenced by that (a fear of investing time into a relationship, if you do not know from the beginning that it will result in marriage etc) rather than based on what are the necessary steps for you to find your ideal partner (get rid of the stress of the PhD either by finishing it or quitting it; by getting rid of your negativity etc).

 

About the blocks you think you are dealing with:

I) your age: firstly you are not as old as you make yourself believe; if you wouldn't be fixated on the arranged marriage route, your age would not be such an issue. Many people have given you examples (myself included, I got together with my partner when I was 34) that they have found their SO when they were much older than you. You yourself have said that you started to try to arranged marriage route a decade ago, i.e. when you were 21. At that time and a number of years to follow, it couldn't have been your age, no?

 

2) your ethnicity. Sorry, but last time I checked Indian was not a minority ethnicity. If you would broaden your requirements and consider non-Indian men, your pool would even increase.

 

I am not sure which limitations you are thinking about, and it's absolutely possible that there are some things that make it more challenging for you, but then knowing what it is is your first step to do something about it, no? (working on getting rid of negative thinking, eliminating the anger/ rage; becoming emotionally independent from your parents ...).

 

However I believe you are focusing your thoughts too much on the negative aspects, rather than saying: what do I have to make it work, and what do I need to reach my goals. This would include rethinking assumptions about yourself and life and how to reach a specific goal. You wouldn't continue doing the same experiment again and again if it always failed, you would go and try out something different.

[LAYAAN]

Penny, I wanted to respond to your message. But its emotionally exhausting for me to explain myself to anyone these days.

Thank you for your response and efforts to help.

 

I'm going to stop writing in my journal so much.

I'm not looking for sympathy here. I'm looking to be understood and provided a pragmatic solution. I'm tired of explaining to others my side of the story.

[penelope13]

No, if writing in this journal helps you, you should do that. But if it doesn't help you that others (I mean more specifically me) try to give you other perspectives, then I will refrain from doing so.

 

You don't have to justify yourself. I was merely trying to help you find a better strategy to reach your goals, that are totally justified.

 

Good luck with your endeavor

[marshmlofluff]

No, if writing in this journal helps you, you should do that. But if it doesn't help you that others (I mean more specifically me) try to give you other perspectives, then I will refrain from doing so.

 

You don't have to justify yourself. I was merely trying to help you find a better strategy to reach your goals, that are totally justified.

 

Good luck with your endeavor

 

I think Penny's message was largely fantastic.

 

That said, having been in a similar position to Tinu, I do feel that a lot of the problems she faces really are due to ethnicity/culture.

 

I do think marriage is a lot, lot, lot harder when you are in Tinu's situation: She is an educated woman in what, in India, is considered a non-traditional field in a very rigid culture where more often than not there is only ONE way of doing things: You HAVE to be an IT person/doctor/engineer or else you are worthless. If you are a woman you HAVE to be a housewife or a high earner otherwise you are disqualified as a potential wife.

 

Tinu lives abroad. She is also correct in saying that Indian people are a small minority in the US--last time I checked the fraction of Indian people in the US was something like 0.3%. I am in a rural area--I haven't seen another Indian person in a month. *And* she is also right that the arranged marriage system favors people who are younger than she is.

 

One could argue (as I have) that she might widen her pool by considering non-Indian men. But I do want to say that even though I grew up in the US it has still been very difficult for me to do that, because there is almost no overlap in the two cultures' approaches to romance and marriage. My mom and dad met twice before they married. My cousins have married similarly, even if they were born in the US. Having grown up with that paradigm, I had a very, very hard time conforming to a mindset where premarital sex or living together or sleeping with each other before being married are not only permissible but expected. It took me years. I have had to torque my values almost to the breaking point and change myself beyond recognition in order to be closer to the American dating "norm" here. And intercultural relationships are challenging. The other day my boyfriend (meaning very well) said something about the "Hindi" religion. Things like that on a daily basis are difficult to deal with.

 

I wish I knew the solution to any of these problems. Life isn't fair. The marriage market isn't fair; accross the board it punishes educated women, and more so in Indian culture, which is more traditional.

 

I think all one can hope to do is be open-minded, try different things, and play the hand you are dealt. That is what I have been trying to do. I wasn't a fit for Indian men--so I became open to different styles of dating and tried to understand how dating works in the US and adapt my values to accommodate that. I moved to a rural area which people joked was only accessible by helicopter. So I used the Internet; I met a pilot. Maybe I find a partner; maybe I don't. But I never gave up and I never will. (And also, I did not really look for partners at high-stress times in my life, while I was finishing my PhD or postdoc. A couple of months really doesn't seem to make that much difference--in my experience, almost all the guys who were online two months before were still there two months later.)

 

So that has been my own approach; to adapt as much as I can, without losing myself. Whether it will work or not, who can say. Goodness knows I have been through a lot of hardship and heartache.

 

But in the end, everybody finds her own unique solution to life's problems, and I am sure Tinu will, too.

[penelope13]

Tinu knows that my own story has not been straight forward, that I know how it is to live in a different country/ culture, how it is to date outside your own ethnicity and nationality, that I know that women with a higher education might have more difficulties finding someone who is supportive of that, nevertheless however extraordinary her circumstances might be, the only thing she really needs is to come up with a strategy for going forward, not for being stuck in focusing on all the obstacles.

 

That's not how you succeeded in the end, that's not how I succeeded in the end. As you said, we had to go through a lot of hardship and heartache, but succeeded because we adapted to the circumstances regardless if they were self made or outside factors.

[LAYAAN]

No, don't misunderstand Penny. I appreciate all the input. I know that you have been only wanting to help and you also have been patient. I thank you for all that.

But I feel that I'm not able to explain myself. I feel misunderstood.

Particularly when you wrote I operate with a sense of entitlement I felt hurt.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Marsh for your reply.

I also want to add something. When I tried to talk to men in arranged market. I realized that most of them have basic expectations -

1) Educated/intelligent does not mean a thing to most of them.

What they are looking for is a direct application of that education/intelligence and reward in terms of job stability and monetary returns. These 2 things are tangible and the evidence can be seen on paper. If they can't see the evidence, they are moving on.

That is the reason why women with everyday degrees are able to find husbands quicker than MD or PhD holder women. Even MD is considered a practical degree by some

[marshmlofluff]

Tinu knows that my own story has not been straight forward, that I know how it is to live in a different country/ culture, how it is to date outside your own ethnicity and nationality, that I know that women with a higher education might have more difficulties finding someone who is supportive of that, nevertheless however extraordinary her circumstances might be, the only thing she really needs is to come up with a strategy for going forward, not for being stuck in focusing on all the obstacles.

 

That's not how you succeeded in the end, that's not how I succeeded in the end. As you said, we had to go through a lot of hardship and heartache, but succeeded because we adapted to the circumstances regardless if they were self made or outside factors.

 

*nod* Yes, I agree. And I have indeed succeeded in that I have found what is at present a happy relationship. But I would actually define "success" a little differently--not by finding a relationship or even by getting married, because getting married is only the beginning; one still has to make the marriage work. Rather I am defining "success" by continuing to be adaptable and try, and by keeping hope alive through rejection and hurt and everything else. And by continuing to make progress toward your life goals (a PhD and eventually marriage) in spite of loneliness and everything else. I think that is what Tinu has to do.

 

Meeting someone is not entirely under your control, but being in the right frame of mind to--that is something you can control, and if you can do that, and work around whatever obstacles are in front of you, that in itself is something to be proud of. Even if you are alone, you can go to bed at night knowing you did your best. As they always say in India, Karmanye vadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachna--which I interpret to mean that although the final outcome of events is not totally in your hands, your duty is to make your best effort to influence it.

 

For me relationships have been the hardest part of my life--much more so than getting a PhD, or even becoming a professor.

 

I mention the obstacles because I think they ought to be acknowledged, and not ignored--recognizing them shows you the path to work around them. As an educated Indian woman in the US, it is extremely hard to meet someone. It is not impossible by any means, but it takes a lot more effort and generally it takes a lot longer than it might otherwise. Once one recognizes and acknowledges that, she can adjust her expectations and also her approach accordingly.

 

I know that at least in my case, it really helped me just to recognize that there were obstacles, because for a long time I incorrectly thought the problem was *me*: I wasn't pretty enough, I wasn't thin enough, I wasn't engaging enough. At 27 I finally realized that none of those things was true. Rather, the problem was that (a) my life circumstances were very different than most women I knew who got married easily, and (b) I was too rigid on my values and thus ruling out 99.7% of possible partners.

 

My particular solution was to loosen up a bit and explore dating men who were very different from me, culturally and professionally--as a result of which I am a professor and I am dating a man who rides a Harley and flies--and he is by far the best man I have ever dated.

 

What the best strategy for Tinu is, I don't know--it is unique for everyone, because it depends on what matters the most to that particular person. I think everybody agrees though that for the moment, Tinu needs to just focus on her PhD and get it out of the way.

[marshmlofluff]

Thank you Marsh for your reply.

I also want to add something. When I tried to talk to men in arranged market. I realized that most of them have basic expectations -

1) Educated/intelligent does not mean a thing to most of them.

What they are looking for is a direct application of that education/intelligence and reward in terms of job stability and monetary returns. These 2 things are tangible and the evidence can be seen on paper. If they can't see the evidence, they are moving on.

That is the reason why women with everyday degrees are able to find husbands quicker than MD or PhD holder women. Even MD is considered a practical degree by some

 

Yes, you put this very well. I think the problem you and I have both faced is that it is far more difficult to marry within the Indian culture when your values and career path are not in line with the things that are valued in that culture.

 

As you know, my particular solution (and the solution most other Indian female graduate students seemed to settle on) was to look outside the culture. You have explained why that particular solution is difficult for you, and your explanation makes sense--as I said, even though I was born and raised here it was a difficult transition to the US mindset.

 

I guess the question then is this: What solution and strategy work best for you? And the answer depends on your particular circumstances and requirements for happiness.

[LAYAAN]

right, thank you my friend for understanding. And that is why I say that I can't fit into Indian arranged marriage system, I'm clearly a mismatch and I can't fit into western dating system either.

 

That is why my options are -

1) suck it up and try to forget chemistry, passion, friendship and marry someone who comes from similar (educated) family background, match horoscopes in arranged market and call it a day.

2) or try to play the dating field and hope that the guy at least starts talking engagement and marriage by the end of a year and if he doesn't, leave him and find the next one.

 

The 2nd option at this age is more risky. Yes, I'm at the upper end of the marriage age bracket, but I'm still within the bracket according to the arranged market. Like I've said before, I can't waste this time trying to date some American who may or may not marry me a year later. I would rather invest this time in arranged market where people at least will give me a definite yes or no in a short period of time. Once I'm out of this market, and happen to stay in the US, American dating pool would still be open to me. Or at that age I may not even consider getting married at all. I'm on the verge of giving up now itself.

 

That is the reason why I'm still standing in the arranged market. Yes, I wish I didn't have to, but wishing doesn't change anything. The other day a man asked me if my degree is even valid since I am taking so long to get it. I didn't bark at him. I only answered the given Q to the best of my ability.

 

But one thing I agree with. And Penny I agree with you on this.

1) I should not have put myself in arranged market while going through PhD

2) If I do, I should develop a thick skin and answer the Qs to-the-point.

But that is what I tried to tell you that I had no choice other than that. Its not about Indians being minority in this country or wherever. Its about their mentality and expectations that I can't fulfill. That is why I said that I will have to lower my expectations and hope to get some basic package and call it a day if I have to marry.

[annie24]

tinu, i sometimes get the sense that you are looking for a love marriage, but that doesn't seem to be what the arranged marriage is all about....

[marshmlofluff]

tinu, i sometimes get the sense that you are looking for a love marriage, but that doesn't seem to be what the arranged marriage is all about....

 

Nicely put, Annie; I was thinking something similar but I couldn't put it in words. And yes, that is the issue--for a love marriage, you have to take time to build the love before the marriage.

 

Now as Tinu says, the other option is

 

1) suck it up and try to forget chemistry, passion, friendship and marry someone who comes from similar (educated) family background, match horoscopes in arranged market and call it a day.

 

Let's rewrite it this way: Option #1 is to marry someone who is compatible on paper--and not necessarily to forget chemistry/passion/friendship, but to build those things with him over time.

[LAYAAN]

tinu, i sometimes get the sense that you are looking for a love marriage, but that doesn't seem to be what the arranged marriage is all about....

not looking for anything anymore. Just feel like giving up. Feel exhausted, worn out. Feel hopeless.

I keep going back to square one and ask myself why do I even want to get married? I don't hope to find companionship in arranged marriage, especially with the kinda men I've met so far.

[LAYAAN]

Nicely put, Annie; I was thinking something similar but I couldn't put it in words. And yes, that is the issue--for a love marriage, you have to take time to build the love before the marriage.

 

Now as Tinu says, the other option is

 

Let's rewrite it this way: Option #1 is to marry someone who is compatible on paper--and not necessarily to forget chemistry/passion/friendship, but to build those things with him over time.

That may be possible.