Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

Is that the only reason? I mean, of course you are ultimately the only one in a position to know whether you like a man or not, but in this whole thread you have been talking about how all you want is to get married, and you don't even care who the man is or whether he wants to disregard your wishes and use you as an incubator, and how marriage is surrender and adjustment and you may as well give in to just anyone.

So when a nice and intelligent guy comes along, are you sure you want to turn him down just because he looks too short? (Looks short, not even is short.)

no, I didn't want to give other details here. I was unsure about even going there to meet him from the beginning. Here are the details if you care to read -

- I'm physically not attracted to him. I really need to get over that if I have to continue talking to him in terms of marriage. I will let go of height, but even then I not attracted to his personality, overall the way he carries himself. He appears to be a nice guy though.

- He is ~39,

- is going to start his PhD in few months in a really small, remote town in another state (north of west coast). That changes the whole dynamic.

- Just because he is willing to wait a few years (thats what he says today, doesn't mean he will stick to it) to have kids, doesn't mean that is out of picture. He has made it very clear that he wants kids and its better to have them sooner than later.

- I will have to find work immediately and continue working or else its difficult to run the family. I will have to be the one bringing in most money and will have to bear a child in a year or two. I will not be able to take a break after delivering the baby because he has made it clear that he doesn't have much savings and will be going to school full-time. I asked him if he desires to work part-time, he said "no".

- I went to meet him yesterday, but it was our 1st meeting so I didn't ask him the details, but he went to Europe to get his medical degree and didn't/couldn't complete the necessary requirements of residency or something, so can't use that medical degree here.

- Overall his career decisions bother me. I haven't asked the exact timeframe of his medical training, but he mentioned that he started med school in his late 20s, is not able to use his degree here, now starting a PhD program full time in his late 30s. I understand the intellectual factor, but my impression is that he doesn't take practical decisions. I think that starting a PhD in late 30s when you don't have a 2nd degree to fall back on is not a practical decision. The path to a tenure track position is long after a PhD. He also said that yesterday. Stability of income is important for me in a husband.

[LAYAAN]

My dad is taken back to the hospital again. He is not feeling well. When things go bad, everything goes bad at the same time.

My PhD, my marriage efforts, my dad's health - everything had to go wrong at the same time.

I don't know what to do. Should I just drop everything here and go back to India? I mean I am not achieving anything here. I really feel like such a loser.

[annie24]

tinu - you are so close. just finish up your schooling here. what can you do in india? you are not a doctor, you can't treat your dad. even if you could, he already has a doctor. please just finish up here.

[penelope13]

Just finish your PhD! How often do you need to come to the same conclusion that it is too much stress for you to deal with everything at the same time?

[marshmlofluff]

Hmm. Well, OK--that is (IMO) a way more serious issue than looking short.

 

Is this the same 39 year old divorced guy from before, or a different one?

 

Now I understand why you say you understand the mindset better of men who ask finance related questions. And actually, that is useful insight, because maybe now you know how to answer in a way that might allay some of their concerns.

 

I am glad to see that even though you sounded very anxious to get married, you are still ruling out people who are not OK with you.

[marshmlofluff]

I don't know what to do.

 

Finish your PhD.

[LAYAAN]

Hmm. Well, OK--that is (IMO) a way more serious issue than looking short.

Is this the same 39 year old divorced guy from before, or a different one?

Now I understand why you say you understand the mindset better of men who ask finance related questions. And actually, that is useful insight, because maybe now you know how to answer in a way that might allay some of their concerns.

I am glad to see that even though you sounded very anxious to get married, you are still ruling out people who are not OK with you.

No, this is not the same. This is a different one. This guy was never married. He currently lives very closeby within 1 hour drive distance so we grabbed the opportunity to meet before he goes away for his education.

Yes, I realize that the business factor of marriage is important too and why people want to get those facts out of the way first. I had another matrimonial interview on phone today and I faced similar Qs and I kept calm and gave honest answers. Not sure if the guy will ask me out, he said he wants to talk more, so we will see.

Trust me, this ruling out is getting to me. Every guy that I let go, my anxiety only increases, but this guy is a clear-cut case. Its not gonna work out. Even if I want to get to know him, its 10 hour drive from SF to his place. He says no plane goes there. I am currently not gonna think about this man.

[LAYAAN]

Just finish your PhD! How often do you need to come to the same conclusion that it is too much stress for you to deal with everything at the same time?

I'm sorry Penny. Thank you for your patience. I don't know what else to say. Thank you for guiding patiently despite my nonsense.

[LAYAAN]

So, yesterday I had another matrimonial interview on phone. I don't know what is going through my mind right now or even when I decided to talk to this guy. We had talked briefly for a while few years ago, he never called back. He is 37.

 

So, yesterday, as we were talking he touched this topic of "perfection" and how we seek perfect/the best partners. So, my response to that was looking for the perfect job is different from looking for the perfect partner. There is a saying in my culture "a cow that gives plenty of thick milk, has short horns, never kicks is an impossible find." (the literal translation) In terms of job, its pure business, you deliver the best, you ask for the best package in return. But even then how many people that can deliver the best and the most have the best work conditions? Is it possible to ask for the best job with best salary with lowest amount of stress with lowest amount of work hours with lowest coworker issues? Everything is a package deal and that's why you look for the best in your basic essential areas and others, you look for optimum/comfortable/can-work-with-this match and call it a day. If you find something like this, I would call that a success still.

 

His approach is more like "Profession and wife, I look for the best. All good things together in one place and people should look for something like that and hold out for that kinda situation." I said "Well, I can't say people shouldn't look for that kinda perfection, but there comes a point where you have to be realistic and ask yourself am I searching for something that is non-existent? and if it exists and I haven't found it yet, where do I stop?" If everything in life is a package deal then is it ideal to wait for this perfect person? Now, if you already have a perfect person that you are dating then you are at least investing time building a relationship, but just to continue meeting and rejecting people in this pursuit of perfection is not a wise thing to do, I feel.

Mind you this is the same guy who turned me down before because I'm not an engineer and I'm not beautiful enough for him. I really don't think he will say yes to me because I sense that he is not changed in his heart. Deep inside he is still craving to find that perfect beautiful engineer woman. He is probably run out of options and wants to only talk to me, but will never go ahead and make any plans to meet. That is what he has done before. He calls me then decides he doesn't want me and moves on, then comes back. That is probably the reason why he decided to break his engagement to another woman. Search of the perfect/best partner! I'm not sure where it ends, if it ends at all.

[dancing_magpie]

Hey Tinu - why are you speaking to this guy if you feel like this about him. Sounds like you've realised he's not the guy for you - not back then and not now either.

[marshmlofluff]

Hey Tinu - why are you speaking to this guy if you feel like this about him. Sounds like you've realised he's not the guy for you - not back then and not now either.

 

Yeah--I was wondering the same thing. I don't think either of these guys is a great pick, but between the last two guys I'd say the PhD guy who is moving to the middle of nowhere is better.

[annie24]

Tinu - that reminds me of the "Secretary problem." It's some sort of study where if someone is looking to hire a secretary, but they can either say yes or no at the end of the interview, how many people will the boss interview (out of 100) before he hires a secretary - 37 was the answer.

 

link removed

 

basically, people reject the first however many number of secretary candidates while they assess what they are like, the good and bad, and then after a certain number, pick the next one that meets their standards.

 

i guess he can go on searching for as long as he likes, but what if the best woman he ever dated he met and gave up 10 years ago! oh well, that is his problem.

 

i hope he doesn't call you again.

[marshmlofluff]

Tinu - that reminds me of the "Secretary problem." It's some sort of study where if someone is looking to hire a secretary, but they can either say yes or no at the end of the interview, how many people will the boss interview (out of 100) before he hires a secretary - 37 was the answer.

 

link removed

 

basically, people reject the first however many number of secretary candidates while they assess what they are like, the good and bad, and then after a certain number, pick the next one that meets their standards.

 

Wow--that is totally fascinating! I've noticed something similar happens when grading papers; when you are grading a few hundred, the way you grade the last one is very different than the way you graded the first.

 

But anyway Tinu--yeah, I don't like the sound of this dude much. I am really glad though that you've found a way to deal with the finance related questions, so that you don't take them too personally.

[LAYAAN]

He called my mom and talked to her "Your daughter has had some misunderstanding about me. I think if I can talk to her and if we can meet, we will get better understanding of each other." My mom asked me to email him. She told me not to mention this to him at all. So, I emailed him. He called and we talked.

My impression is that he wouldn't call. Thats the way he behaves. I have already deleted his number.

[LAYAAN]

Tinu - that reminds me of the "Secretary problem." It's some sort of study where if someone is looking to hire a secretary, but they can either say yes or no at the end of the interview, how many people will the boss interview (out of 100) before he hires a secretary - 37 was the answer.

 

link removed

 

basically, people reject the first however many number of secretary candidates while they assess what they are like, the good and bad, and then after a certain number, pick the next one that meets their standards.

 

i guess he can go on searching for as long as he likes, but what if the best woman he ever dated he met and gave up 10 years ago! oh well, that is his problem.

 

i hope he doesn't call you again.

exactly! I knew about this. I have even mentioned this behavior (not with the exact name) in one of my responses to some thread recently. Thats how guys act. They are initially looking for "perfection". If they find that "perfect" woman, thats great, if not they get tired one day and marry the next chick and she wonders if the guy is smoking something. Nothing dear, he is just really really tired.

[LAYAAN]

Wow--that is totally fascinating! I've noticed something similar happens when grading papers; when you are grading a few hundred, the way you grade the last one is very different than the way you graded the first.

But anyway Tinu--yeah, I don't like the sound of this dude much. I am really glad though that you've found a way to deal with the finance related questions, so that you don't take them too personally.

Yes, I only answered his Qs, I know this isn't going anywhere. Every few years he uses his mom to push my mom so he can tap back into me and see that I'm alive and still interested. Then he goes and dates some more women then same cycle repeats.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes, I only answered his Qs, I know this isn't going anywhere.

 

He doesn't sound very appealing. I'd say think of him as practice.

[LAYAAN]

I recently got in touch with my ex's (the fireman) buddy for some work. We keep running into each other at our common friend's place as well. Our common friend told me that my ex is quite devastated with the breakup and still misses me. His buddy said that he is sensitive, but he has bottled up his feelings.

I could not stop asking myself if I did justice to the relationship, if I pulled the plug too soon, if I should have given the guy a chance when he said "please don't leave" I don't know anymore. The good thing I did for myself was that I didn't create any drama, crying, cussing, fighting, going back, begging, stalking etc. I wrote my reasons for breaking up with him, so now when I have these doubts I can refer back to that text and remind myself why I broke up with him. I don't know why he would bottle up his feelings though, why wouldn't he share openly with me what he wanted to say?

I told myself today, don't entertain these thoughts. Let them come, acknowledge them, but don't entertain them. The last thing I want to do is to go back to my ex and start something that I can't finish. He told me very clearly during our final conversation that he would be able to tell better if he is with someone for a couple of years. I really don't think that I can give any man that kinda time at my age to figure out if he wants to be with me or not. I can't invest my emotions in a guy for 2 years just to find out that things are not working.

My honest Q is - What do you hope to find in 2 years that you can't find out in 1 year? How long you must date someone before you finally make a decision? Ultimately there is no telling how a person would act unless circumstances present themselves in your relationship. Its great if testing times come within 1 year, but they may not even in 2 years. What do you do then? Really, honestly, if the guy wouldn't have started talking engagement and marriage by 10 months, I still would have broken up with him. If our goals and timelines are not similar, whats the use? I would have definitely resented myself for staying with a man without any assurance beyond a year. I would have resented him, secretly hoped that he asked me to marry him, dropped hints, finally burst in anger for all that went in with no output. This would not do anyone any good. He would call me psycho. I would call him "you used me for free". Really its all unnecessary.

 

Calm down and focus. Things happened for a reason. Leave and let go. There is no point in going back. He has made it clear that he is not on same timeframe. What more clarification will I get after going back? Why bother getting into on and off relationship?

[LAYAAN]

I feel like emailing the guy I had matrimonial interview with yesterday that things won't work between us.

- He is clearly looking for perfection and hasn't given up looking for that.

- He also asked me if my PhD would be "valid" if I stretch it beyond 4-5 years.

- I'm not willing to give him more than just a coffee date provided he comes to see me here. Knowing him, he will not come here just for a coffee date. He asked if I could come there instead. Why should I invest my resources into a guy who clearly is gonna turn me down?

- My mom says that he is very good looking (better looking than me), so likely he will turn me down.

 

Now the issue is that his and my mom are involved. According to his mom "they should at least meet each other because if they don't like each other then there is no point in talking further." Right, I agree with that. so why wait any longer?

[LAYAAN]

Yes, I have been thinking about it. I've written openly about my confusion on having kids, if and when and how many. I'm revisiting those thoughts. Where is this confusion leading me in marriage market? I'm letting decent marriage-minded guys go. They want to get married, settle down, start a family. What is so wrong with that? Nothing. I'm not yet convinced. I haven't yet tested the guy, blah blah. When will I be convinced? Really, I'm noticing that I have this need to know how things are gonna work ahead of time. I noticed it while learning to drive. I wanted to have a map, know exactly where we were going to turn. I didnt' like my instructor telling me 100 feet ahead of time when we were going to turn. That stressed me. I like predictability in life. Really my fear of having kids is coming from this. I'm not saying I should run after men and get pregnant, but I need to start talking to men who wants kids without freaking out. Definitely pay attention to education, finish PhD, finish exams, but I really hope I'm coming into my own here. I really hope that the process towards self realization brings some clarity so I can take wise decisions.

 

Today I talked to someone and I'm seeing my flaws here. So the message is "You HAVE to develop an optimistic nature. You MUST. Life in general is unpredictable. Look at yourself. Look at how you got into an accident while crossing the street. That is how life is. You can only be so much cautious. Trust your husband when you marry him or else don't marry him. You can't act this way in marriage. The guy will run away. You are too scared to commit. You are scared to have kids. You have turned into a control freak. You want to know everything ahead of time. Relax, let things flow. Trust your heart, trust your intellect, trust in your ability to spot BS and take right decisions at right time. You are an intelligent woman. Understand that you have to take chances in marriage when you decide to have kids. Everyone does. You have to take smart chances though. What happens if according to your evaluation everything is good for 2 years and then you have a child and things fall apart 2 years after that? Would you blame yourself for having someone's child then? Knowing you, probably you would. Does it mean that you were an idiot to trust in the companionship of 2 years and decide to have a child? No, life is unpredictable. You can't foretell events. You can only practice caution without worrying too much and roll with life's punches. So my advice to you is to relax and go with the process. Don't worry too much that the guy wants to have kids and tells you in every phone call how he can't wait to have kids. Get to know the guy. Don't rule him out immediately. Don't run after some low-quality men just because they are okay with never having kids. You are at that age in your life where you should take that decision for yourself and for your future child if you want kids or not. Don't have a child late because you are entertaining some idiotic, fantastic concepts in your head and then you come to your senses, but the time is gone. Don't reinvent the wheel. Don't rebel at this age dear. Decisions you take now will stay with you for a long time. If you meet a decent man, you like him, he wants a child, and clearly has resources to provide for the kid, there is nothing wrong with that. Go with it."

[LAYAAN]

I found out today that people have actually written blogs about their depression and emotional ups and downs they faced during their PhD program. I experienced a strange relief to know that I'm really not the only one and I'm not as stupid as I think I'm. I found 2 such blogs today and I will be reading through and getting some help. I was supposed to submit my intro and discussion today. I didn't. I went to school and worked straight 8 hours, but the work just didn't get done. So, I will be going again. I feel bad for myself for putting myself through the brutal Indian arranged marriage process during my PhD. I really didn't need that bashing from men during these times when I'm so sensitive because of what is happening in my professional life. When you experience this phase of life when your own parents, partner simply can't get it through their head anything that you talk about, its a sad sad feeling. You feel completely isolated. You feel like noone understands you, you simply give up talking to people, hoping that they will ever understand. Now I know why people yearn to be understood. It is a human need. I wasn't aware of it as strongly as I'm now. The rest of the world looks at you as some rare animal in a zoo. Some respect you, some ridicule you, some are jealous of you, some suddenly start to feel insecure about them when with you, they avoid you. Its all amusing.

[LAYAAN]

I have a plant in my room "plush plant"/Echeveria harmsii. I had it for about 6 months now. When I first got it, it was full, I was hoping it would bear some buds and then bright orange flowers. May be I watered it too much, or didn't give enough sunlight, it started turning all brown, and started dieing. Now, it looks much much happier. I see young leaves on its branches. I'm really happy to see that. That gives me hope to hang on in tough phase.

[penelope13]

Tinu, you make yourself more of a victim of your circumstances than you need to. Sure you have pressure from parents and family, but in the end it's you who decides how to handle it. You are an adult and ultimately responsible for your own life and your own choices. And yes going through a PhD is tough, as many people on your threads have tried to tell you.

 

But you are the one who is deciding continuously against any advice to focus your energies on the matrimonial market rather than your PhD. You get defeated, angry, upset, discouraged and all the other negative emotions. Of course it's hard then to go back to focusing on writing an intro or a discussion for a paper.

 

Thus neither area in your life that requires focused efforts is doing well. Since there are no guarantees that you will find someone within the next 3 months, it is a bit more likely that you will succeed with your PhD if you focus solely on creating enough data and on the writing. That is really much more in your hands.

 

While I was writing my thesis I literally had packed up everything in my house except what I needed to write my thesis. There was nothing in my room except my bed and a provisional desk that I build around all the remaining walls of the room to accommodate all my reading. I worked 8 hours on reading and writing, spent another 8 hours in the lab to finish some more experiments and took only minimal time for eating, showering, and some exercise. Of course I also had to take care of all the formalities of obtaining a PhD, and preparing of moving to another continent. I cut off any and all extra activities. I only called my parents to let them know I was ok and would tell people only to call me if there was something important or urgent. It was a tough 4 months, but it allowed me to completely focus on writing and finishing up without allowing myself too many outside distractions.

 

While not everyone is made for such a vigorous schedule, my point is: if you want to, you can create the necessary environment that YOU need to make your writing happening. If you know something is distracting you - cut it off from your life for the time being. This might be the only time in your life where you can allow yourself (and should) to be completely single minded - finishing your PhD. What really helped me to get through it was having a schedule day in and day out. Your body and mind gets used to it.

 

In those 4 final months before submitting the thesis, my brain was only focusing and thinking about my thesis. I didn't allow anything else to really register. What people don't realize it takes up a lot of time and energy to get your brain into the right focus for writing, so instead of getting in and out of that mode, I just tried everything possible in my power not to be distracted and not to lose that focus, even if I wasn't actively sitting at my computer.

 

I was literally too busy and too tired to feel any kind of depression about not being able to see my friends, not being in a relationship, or even for being upset that the experiments didn't go as smoothly as I wanted or that the impact factor wasn't as high as I wanted, all I wanted is to finish. For once I didn't worry about any of the things that were going on in my family and for once I didn't worry to have to take care of my friends. I also didn't have time to be anxious about moving to yet another country. I just went through the actions.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Penny so much for sharing this with me.

What you say is right and I know you have said it before also to me. I realized (and thats why I wrote it in my post) that I did myself a disservice by putting myself through arranged marriage process and then letting it get the best of me, my peace of mind, my joy.

I understand the importance of having a schedule. I'm in process of preparing one for myself. Would you be willing to share a copy of yours if you have your schedule or can recollect it? If its a little personal and if you dont' want to share it, I understand.

I have realized that I will have to take rigorous steps if I want to finish my PhD and my pharmacy exams and no matter how much I would like, marriage won't be happening soon. Its simply impossible. Yesterday I had to attend a workshop for effective learning. The instructor mentioned that you may think that you can multitask, but your brain can do only 1 task at a time and perform well on it.

Yes, I should have controlled my circumstances or if not, I should have adjusted my attitude for my circumstances. I let my circumstances kick me around. That was wrong. I shouldn't have put myself through some extra nonsense during an already challenging PhD program. I'm not blaming Indian men. They did what they had to do to make sure they didn't get an unwanted/less desired deal. They had to ask me all the finance related Qs, because they needed that information to make a decision. Sure, other Indian girls got married, this and that, but I can't compare myself to them. Everyone is different, the guys they met fell for them. I took it to heart, but really I put myself in a situation where all that is part of the process and let it get the best of me. That was unnecessary. I had a bad attitude which didn't serve me in this market.

[penelope13]

Tinu, I'm not sure if my schedule will work for you, but i'll PM you