Thoughts, ramblings

[dancing_magpie]

Hey Tinu. I PMd you - don't know if you got my message.

 

I understand what you're trying to convey in the message to this guy but I do agree with annie that you're putting yourself down a bit. It may be more simple to just be completely honest and say that there was a misunderstanding and that you are not interested. I know this may cause problems for both you and your mother but she shouldn't have got you in this situation.

 

@annie - this is the kind of crap that happens in the 'arranged marriage scene' - too many people involved. I've almost had it happen to me because of my mother and aunty's/family friend's interference. It looks crazy from the outside but this is actually not that weird at all... (that doesn't mean I think it's a good thing - quite the contrary, it's just not that uncommon at all to have multiple people involved right from the beginning).

[annie24]

yeah, i get that arranged marriages will have a lot of people in the mix. it just is bad when it turns into a game of "telephone" where one person casually asks a question, and that's insinuated as something else. besides, this guy hasn't contacted Tinu for several months, so why should she go and turn down a non-existent marriage offer? yikes. I'd just forget it.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, its the same guy.

Why should I go and turn down a non-existing marriage offer? - Really, I don't need to do anything, but I'm caught in a strange situation. I have already gotten a bad name for "not responding favorably" when the guy is doing me a favor "by coming back". His mom was quite upset that I refused to email him when my mom and I had conversation (post #175 date). Its sad how his mom and my mom are unnecessarily involved and its just messing up the situation.

 

Thank you Penny, Annie, Magpie for pointing out that the email I wrote isn't helpful. I thought I wrote a good email not putting anyone down, addressing the problem and I thought I come accross as a mature person and not angry. Don't know what to write. Guess I'll try not to write an email at all.

[LAYAAN]

is that my boss and I met yesterday. I had already turned in corrections, etc. on Thursday. He suggested some changes. I hope to submit everything including new discussion by Friday. I'm working hard towards that.

 

I've started practicing breathing techniques I learned in Art of Living class. Yesterday was the last day of the class.

[dancing_magpie]

The guy sounded like a complete douche from what you wrote before. I think Annie is right - unless he contacts you directly don't bother... and even if does I'm not sure that I'd bother anyway.

[annie24]

Yes, its the same guy.

Why should I go and turn down a non-existing marriage offer? - Really, I don't need to do anything, but I'm caught in a strange situation. I have already gotten a bad name for "not responding favorably" when the guy is doing me a favor "by coming back". His mom was quite upset that I refused to email him when my mom and I had conversation (post #175 date). Its sad how his mom and my mom are unnecessarily involved and its just messing up the situation.

 

Thank you Penny, Annie, Magpie for pointing out that the email I wrote isn't helpful. I thought I wrote a good email not putting anyone down, addressing the problem and I thought I come accross as a mature person and not angry. Don't know what to write. Guess I'll try not to write an email at all.

 

i don't see that he "came back" at all. it's these other women playing telephone. i don't see any need to email him explaining anything.

 

good to hear about the manuscript. good luck!

[LAYAAN]

The guy sounded like a complete douche from what you wrote before. I think Annie is right - unless he contacts you directly don't bother... and even if does I'm not sure that I'd bother anyway.

Yes, that's what the plan is for now. Don't send any email, don't call. Deal with it if he sends an email/calls.

On a side note, I don't know if its just me, but the word "douche" makes me cringe. Many vaginas are much cleaner than this guy. A douche so dirty like this can't be used to clean anything.

[dancing_magpie]

Haha - yeah I wouldn't normally use it but after I re-read how he'd behaved with you, I felt quite angry on your behalf and it was one of the 'nicer' words that came to mind ;-P

[MD Geist]

is that my boss and I met yesterday. I had already turned in corrections, etc. on Thursday. He suggested some changes. I hope to submit everything including new discussion by Friday. I'm working hard towards that.

 

I've started practicing breathing techniques I learned in Art of Living class. Yesterday was the last day of the class.

 

Thats good to hear.

[LAYAAN]

Hey MD Geist, how are you doing my friend? You were thinking of moving closer to a city, did you do that?

[LAYAAN]

As an Indian woman raised in India, I've realized that if you want to find "quality" man in arranged market, you have to bring a lot to the table. Yes, even as a woman. If you lack in 1 or more areas (according to the man evaluating you), nothing is discounted. For every area that the man thinks you are not upto standard, you will be judged, criticized, and made to feel inadequate. You will automatically go to lower quality men and get into settling mode.

 

I have also realized (even with my panic and anxiety attacks related to single hood) that arranged marriage is for those who are okay with choosing a mate based on how he appears on a piece of paper (advertisement) and then little interaction (if you are lucky). I call it instant marriage, instant family. Not much room is given to be yourself, to think about the decision. If you say no, next girl is ready. "You should be thankful that our son is saying yes to you and you dare to ask Qs and take time to think? What's wrong with you?" You never really get to know the guy enough to make a conscious decision. You marry based entirely on hope n faith. Its helpful if you don't show that you can think and ask pointed Qs because noone likes that kinda woman.

I would really like to know why arranged marriage have lowest divorce rate though. May be people just get worn out after looking around so much. They don't want to go through this again and try to make it work with the current partner. As strange as it may sound (because lately I have been running around panicking and wanting to get married) I really doubt if I'll be happy if I get married to one of these "financial Q bank" guys.

 

I was reading on link removed that you have to be yourself. If you are not then the image that you are trying to put up will come back to bite you. I've been trying to paint my face, lie about my lack of enthusiasm to have kids to attract men in this market. This drama has been going on for last 10 years. So, if I really want to know a guy through a few months of interaction, it doesn't serve me to be standing in this bazar. Given a choice I won't have kids. Given a choice I will do research, study ahead, work, travel, volunteer, cherish my hobbies. That is my idea of happiness and living life. It is wrong for me to desire companionship then? A woman like me is not marriage material, I guess. When I talked to men and women in arranged market, I felt that most of them have a dogmatic attitude (and honestly, it helps to be that way. You will breeze through the process if you have that attitude). The only cure for me is get out or put up and give in.

[marshmlofluff]

Yes, I generally agree with all of this. Except that it is even harder if you are raised abroad, as people assume that you are "too Westernized."

 

 

 

I think it is partly because of the stigma of divorce in India, and partly because people expect less from their partner. They expect that s/he will help bring in money/raise kids, not that s/he will be their soulmate and best friend and a red-hot lover. They realize they will have to build love and friendship, and that there isn't "chemistry" or "spark" or whatever it is people in the West go through a series of partners before finding. Also, the whole family is involved. And finally, if you think of the "Ramayana" and other religious stories, Indian culture puts a lot more emphasis on keeping your word.

 

 

 

Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying; honesty is very important. Even if you *do* look on the arranged market though, I think you should be honest about what you want. You will attract fewer men, but the ones you attract at least will want what you have to offer. I would suspect there probably are men on the arranged market who can offer what you are looking for, just because the world is very large.

 

If you just want companionship and do not want kids, you are not on any time scale at all to meet someone. Yes it is true that there is less of a pool to choose from--but it is also true that you only need *one* man.

 

Most men I meet (on the non-arranged market) do not want kids or are ambivalent about them--which is a source of some annoyance to me, but it sounds like you might prefer it. Which is why I continue to suggest that you broaden your search as long as possible.

[annie24]

I think it is partly because of the stigma of divorce in India, and partly because people expect less from their partner. They expect that s/he will help bring in money/raise kids, not that s/he will be their soulmate and best friend and a red-hot lover. They realize they will have to build love and friendship, and that there isn't "chemistry" or "spark" or whatever it is people in the West go through a series of partners before finding. Also, the whole family is involved. And finally, if you think of the "Ramayana" and other religious stories, Indian culture puts a lot more emphasis on keeping your word.

 

yes, i was going to say the same thing. I think the western divorce rate is so high because people expect sooooo much - like marsh said - a red hot lover, a best friend, a soul mate, a business partner, a therapist, etc... all rolled into one person. and that can really lead to unrealistic expectations. whereas if you know in advance that your husband isn't going to be your "be all, end all" and you accept that there are aspects of the relationship missing, that may be fine for you. I think many of us have grandparents (even in the western world) where love wasn't a concern so much as him having a good job, and her knowing how to cook and raise kids. if they had that, then that was enough!

 

and i agree - tinu, if you are not wanting kids, then i think your timeline is extended. i am sure that there are men who would be a good match for you as well. maybe older men too who do not want more kids because they already had some.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, not freaking out is really difficult. After seeing my close friends settle for whoever, I hope you can understand why my heart is getting pulled in all directions.

[annie24]

i see why you are getting pulled in all directions. because of that, it makes sense to me to settle one thing in your life at a time. career first. and then the marriage. and really if you don't want kids, you don't need to rush.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh,

I wanted to send you a private message but your account privacy is set such that I can't do that. I read what you wrote about practical degrees in one of your messages. I just wanted to share my feelings and experiences with you. I hope that is okay with you. You can PM me if its not.

 

I have gone through some similar nonsense in India when I decided to pursue pharmacy school instead of computer engineering or medicine. India, as many Asian countries, is where people follow the crowd, follow the norm. Rarely they ask, "Do I really have it in me to be a good physician?" "Why do *I* want to be a physician?"

The reasons are -

- The society puts a lot of pressure on you to be in glamorous professions.

- You will be labeled a loser if you are not in one of those professions.

- You will have a hard time finding a life partner if you are not in certain professions (No, I'm not joking). Its worse for men. Like I said before, finding a mate in arranged market is like hunting for a job in a market (though you can change jobs which is a huge plus).

- India as much advanced as it is now, its impossible to find a steady job if you pursue anything other than certain professions. These professions have good salary and job opportunities and that gives them this shine.

 

Unfortunately Indian people have carried the same mentality even after they stepped outside India. Its a society where money, position, power is revered. Everyone tries to fit in and look good to others. Everyone tries to pursue what the norm is. So, if you don't want to sweat yourself to become successful and are happy with your mediocre job, something is wrong with you. Its not a society where finding your own niche is encouraged. In careers/professions, they try to play it safe and go with something that will give them money. Parents strongly discourage their kids doing anything that they can't really put on their CV and which won't potentially make their CV look better. Personality, individualism is strongly discouraged.

 

When I was making a career choice, I went through rough time back home. I was sure I didn't want to pursue medicine. That lifestyle didn't appeal to me. I wasn't so sure about engineering. I read a little and learned that most women chose computer or electronic engineering than "hardcore" pure engineering branches. I asked myself "Do you see yourself doing this job?" The answer was no. To sit in front of a computer 8-10 hours a day, figuring out codes would have driven me nuts. Even now, my head starts spinning if I'm doing a lot of mathematical (statistical, spreadsheet) work for my research. I have to give my mind a break or I can almost get nauseated, feel dizzy and throw up.

 

What I desire from my professional life -

- is that it gives me a job, not necessarily a career, a profession, but at least a job. Then I would decide if I want to build a career out of it.

- a balanced lifestyle. Going through my PhD with a workaholic and perfectionist boss put a lot of things in perspective for me. Even though I worked 10-12 hours a day on a regular basis and sometimes even more than that, I realized that I don't want to do that for the rest of my life.

- what matters to me is stability instead of glamor, medium-decent pay and being able to come home every evening without piles of work.

And I realized that many professions routes other than medicine and IT engineering can give me this kinda life, at least outside India.

 

I just wanted to share this with you because you mentioned "practical degrees" and how Indians are expected to pursue only certain professions, how frustrating it gets at times to deal with such people and how the same nonsense is repeated in marriage market and choosing a partner.

[marshmlofluff]

Hello Marsh,

I wanted to send you a private message but your account privacy is set such that I can't do that. I read what you wrote about practical degrees in one of your messages. I just wanted to share my feelings and experiences with you. I hope that is okay with you. You can PM me if its not.

 

Tinu, let me add you to my contacts and that way you can PM me. I also dealt with the same thing. Partly because of the pressure to do engineering/medicine/IT, I totally rebelled and I pursued an academic line instead. I got into the best grad school in the world and then all my extended family could say was "Great--you got into --so now that you are there, can you switch into ?"

 

- You will have a hard time finding a life partner if you are not in certain professions (No, I'm not joking). Its worse for men. Like I said before, finding a mate in arranged market is like hunting for a job in a market (though you can change jobs which is a huge plus).

 

Absolutely--I had the same problem when I was on the arranged market. I am in an unconventional profession...people wanted either a high earner or a housewife, and I was neither.

 

Unfortunately Indian people have carried the same mentality even after they stepped outside India. Its a society where money, position, power is revered.

 

That's true. Also it is a society with less money and therefore less luxury to pursue things like, say, theatre, when the focus is on living daily life. I think that is why jobs like engineering/IT/medicine that increase the quality of daily life are respected. I think also that there is a stronger sense of duty to others.

 

When I was making a career choice, I went through rough time back home. I was sure I didn't want to pursue medicine. That lifestyle didn't appeal to me. I wasn't so sure about engineering. I read a little and learned that most women chose computer or electronic engineering than "hardcore" pure engineering branches. I asked myself "Do you see yourself doing this job?" The answer was no. To sit in front of a computer 8-10 hours a day, figuring out codes would have driven me nuts. Even now, my head starts spinning if I'm doing a lot of mathematical (statistical, spreadsheet) work for my research. I have to give my mind a break or I can almost get nauseated, feel dizzy and throw up.

 

Same.

 

I just wanted to share this with you because you mentioned "practical degrees" and how Indians are expected to pursue only certain professions, how frustrating it gets at times to deal with such people and how the same nonsense is repeated in marriage market and choosing a partner.

 

I am glad you shared it; it is nicce to hear someone else who shared my experience. As you know, I have more or less abandoned the arranged market for the time being; it is not a fit for me.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh,

Yes, I had my extended relatives say the same thing to me. "What the heck is this pharmacy?" Why would you choose something like that? Just get a computer engineering degree instead. YOu will mint money and will get married in a second.

I lived to see that day in arranged market especially in the US where in last 2 years every Indian man wants to marry someone from healthcare field instead.

I faced (and you know this from my threads) far worse treatment in the arranged market.

The reasons were mostly -

1) profession

2) salary

3) I'm a manglik (if you know what I mean by that). Those who are not familiar with this term, read link removed

4) beauty

 

I have had countless boys and boys' parents tell me or my mom straight, "umm... we are able to get a doctor, we would rather consider her." I thought that was prevalent in India. After I came here, a dad (a PhD in organic chemistry) said to me "I told my son, you should look for a software engineer instead. She can come to Seattle and work for Google. What is this pharmacy girl going to do in Seattle?"

It used to bother me a lot initially that I was not a SW engineer. I used to get hurt by boys asking me pointed Qs in arranged market. I still do, but the frequency isn't as much as it was before. I have learned my lesson the hard way.

[marshmlofluff]

I did not realize you were a Manglik, yes, that makes it even harder on the arranged market. Are you limiting your search to men who are compatible with that, or are you open to non-Mangliks?

 

Generally, I have had similar experiences to you. By the way I think you are quite pretty, so I do not understand why #4 is an issue.

 

I think I might have told you this already but when I was maybe 23 or 24, for the first time my family contacted a fellow regarding marriage. He was at my uncle's house without knowing that my uncle was my uncle, and told him "I received a marriage inquiry, but the girl is doing her PhD and even her father has his PhD...I am not interested in someone with that much education, so I am not going to pursue things." So that was my first introduction to the arranged market, and the mentality that one has to face.

 

It was not long before I abandoned it.

[annie24]

To me, the idea of computer science being the best and only thing one should do is totally ridiculous. People sure have some crazy ideas. What if everyone went into computer science. Can you have a society that way? No! I mean, society needs everyone, from garbage men to bus drivers to beauticians to artists and musicians and accountants to doctors and pharmacists and professors. I think everyone is important. Now, I see how being a doctor is better on the arranged marriage market than being a garbage man. But can you imagine living in a world without janitors and garbage men? ewwww. Or what about a world without music and art? That does not sound good either. even though they aren't typically considered 'practical' professions.

 

I know we all keep saying this tinu, but maybe you should just take a break from the arranged marriage market, and focus on other things in your life. it does not sound like you are in a good place right now to work on this aspect of your life. stop stressing about it, stop thinking about it, you'll find yourself more peaceful.

[LAYAAN]

Hello Marsh,

Thanks for your reply.

 

No, I'm not limiting my search to 'manglik' only. The deal is I am honest about my horoscope situation. Most men want to play it safe. As we all know now people screen candidates very carefully in arranged market. You often here 'em say "You are not in love with this girl, are you? Go for a better/safer candidate instead. Why bother with this?"

So, I don't care, but most men in arranged market want to match horoscopes. That is the reason why I talk first. If they want to match horoscopes, I send mine and tell them to get back to me if it matches and then we can proceed. Most don't get back to me. A few do. I talk only to them.

[LAYAAN]

I went to school Sat and today so I got feedback on my discussion section. It wasn't good/great, but I stayed patient with my prof. and I told myself not to take it personally.

I got all cooking done, did all dishes (I have to handwash them).

Got laundry done and put away.

Today I walked 4 miles in 1 hour 15 min.

[annie24]

no offense to you, but do you as a woman of science really believe the horoscopes? i can understand that some of your potential matches might believe but do you believe these things that the horoscope says about you?

[marshmlofluff]

no offense to you, but do you as a woman of science really believe the horoscopes? i can understand that some of your potential matches might believe but do you believe these things that the horoscope says about you?

 

My understanding from Tinu's post is that she does not believe in astrology, but that many men do--and I will add that in my own experience, even if they don't, often their parents do, and often men tend to accede to their parents' wishes in this area. If you are, say, on an online dating site it is very easy to just check the box saying you do not want to consider people with a particular astrological sign.

 

I will add that astrology plays a very different cultural role in India than it does here; in India, astrology is much more mainstream, and many educated and otherwise non-superstitious people put great faith in it. Being a "Manglik" is like having a particular zodiac sign; it means you were born when the influence of Mars was strong. The superstition (at least in my family's part of India) is that if a non-Manglik marries a Manglik, the non-Manglik will die instantly. Even people who are otherwise non-superstitious will tend to be aware of this prediction, and all other things being equal will think twice about marrying a Manglik--along the lines of ("have faith in the Almighty, but lock your car.")

 

So if you were born under this Zodiac sign, that makes it much harder on the arranged market even if you yourself do not care at all about astrology.

 

It is really a terrible thing that such superstitions persist in modern society, and cause people to be stigmatized.

[LAYAAN]

Yes, Marsh exactly! it doesn't matter if I believe in it or not. People say "Well, ya, heck you don't want to match horoscopes because you are a manglik. You don't care because you don't need to, but my/my son's life (literally) is on the line. I want to make sure that he doesn't die because he married you." Like I have some magical evil powers and something will happen to their son if he marries me. That's why I say, candidates are screened thoroughly before men and women say yes to marrying. If there is some doubt, next girl is ready (because afterall *women* want to get married), if not, wait for a few months, fresh meat is on its way.