What's Going On ?

[Circe]

I think you are being overly defensive.

 

In focusing on this minutea I suggest you're missing the bigger picture.

 

I was suggesting a possible explanation as to why she might get so very, very upset in response to what seems to be a fairly innocuous comment by you re: tidying up.

 

The big picture for you is that she fights in a destructive style (shouting and abusing).

 

The big picture for her is that you are doing something which is causing her a lot of angst.

 

I was trying to work out what the big picture for her is.

[Hopefully Not]

I very much appreciate all the responses so far.

 

 

Indigo, I like your sig line. If you don't mind my asking, did you come up with it or does it refer to something?

 

I'm sure if you could see & hear me, you'd feel that I am not at all being defensive. I understand it may read that way though. I'm truly just being as clear and factual as I can be, and that might seem terse in print. Regardless, at some point people are going to have to accept what's written rather than spending time thinking of what must "really" be happening. Ironically, her inability to take things at face value is a big part of the problem.

 

That said, I think if we could figure out her problem that could solve mine. If that's your thinking, then I agree. Here's the thing - you've asked before how it took so long to get to this point. It's because I've tried everything, and that took time. However the end result is the same. And as I pointed out above, I'm doing exactly what she asked me to do.

 

There's something going on that isn't because of what I'm doing or saying. I agree she has a lot of angst, but it isn't coming from me, I'm certain at this point. Her lifestyle is one that most would envy, most of which she doesn't have to pay for, and her job is the job she wanted and with better pay and benefits than could be expected with her education. She may have some medical or psychological imbalance. When I read the list of "problem" traits that decribe her very well, a lot of them are based on fear of this or that. Check the traits for P-A for example. Maybe there's something to the fear idea, but it doesn't mean I'm the source of it.

 

As I said above, I don't blame people for not believing this is happening without real justification. I wouldn't have believed it either until I witnessed it first hand for years. I can't keep blaming myself for, or trying to fix, something I am not doing. Abusers count on that, and it's one part of the cycle that I can have some control over.

 

Anyway, the bottom line is that there's nothing that anybody can say that would justify an adult with a fairly healthy and stress-free life, safe and calm in their comfortable home, to suddenly & repeatedly freak out.

 

She'll often claim I'm "provoking" her, and when I ask how she says she can't remember. I can't help but think it's odd that I've apparently done something that could anger someone so extremely yet they can never remember what it was I did to anger them.

 

I ask her to please write it down next time it happens so she won't forget. I say she can take months to accumulate a list and then sit down with me and share it so I can gain insight and become a better person. Once or twice over the course of a couple of months, when we're not fighting, I'll remind her to compile this list. End result? Nothing.

 

And speaking of extremism, that's an issue too which prevents healthy dialogue between people. She'll get mad at me for doing or feeling something that she, or any normal person, also does or feels. But I'm supposed to empathize without question with everything she thinks or feels, even if it's clearly false or unreasonable. Lots of that double-standard.

 

For example, she'll say she's angry because I don't have time for her. I refer to my calendar which sits in full view so she already knows what she's saying isn't true, and show her I was out only a few evenings the past month - some of those times taking her out to do something we enjoyed together, or I'm off living a healthy life away from the television. In some cases she was out more often than me. Bottom line I was free or with her a good 80%+ of our waking non-working hours, so it's extreme and totally false to say I've got no time for her.

 

So then she'll backtrack and say that even when I am home I am busy. Well, yeah. If we're not doing something I'm not going to just sit there waiting to die. I play music, enjoy my work, excercise, etc. Those are good positive things, and most of them are things she can participate in.

 

Heck we spend more time fighting in an average month than most couples probably spend interacting, so if I had any sense I would make myself less available but the fact is that she could count on one hand how many times over 10 years she has asked me to talk, do something, etc. and I have said I can't because I am too busy. Even then, I'd schedule a time when I'd be free.

 

End result? Do you think I get an apology? Do you think that's the last I hear of it? Do you think she says "well, if I want more time together I really should just ask instead of lashing out". No, she changes the subject to some other make-believe issue. Oh, and this whole "you're not available" thing will come up again next month and the month after that during an argument (as do most of these "issues"), but certainly never during a discussion, and I'll waste another hour of my life proving what she already knows - that her assertion is bull----.

 

To me that shows someone that's fabricating something to be "justifiably" angry about. That's not what sincere people do if they want to get along with someone is it?

 

It's a strange game, and I'd like to stop playing it. We're talking about an adult, keep in mind, so if something is causing angst or what-have-you, why not just say so?

 

What's she possibly afraid of? My best guess is still "success" or "happiness". She has at times said she's not as smart, not a good communicator, not this or that. But she's more than smart enough to know that she's selling herself short and that with a bit of effort anyone can improve. Given she makes few, half-hearted, efforts to improve those things that supposedly bother her, I'm left believing they're just more excuses or make-believe "issues" to get upset about.

 

She's once or twice over the years said she resents that I'm a happy, positive, person with a good healthy lifestyle. In other words, the very reasons she was eager to be with me and marry me - the very things people want in a mate, and as examples for their kids - is what's causing her to sabotage the marriage or our chance of having a family. Does that only seem bizarre and unhealthy to me?

 

Even then, the double-standard applies. For example my smarts are coveted when they're to her benefit, but not when she doesn't like what I'm thinking - then it's denial and war.

 

Your thoughts?

[SnowFox]

Hopefullynot- I sent you a PM -

[Circe]

Indigo, I like your sig line. If you don't mind my asking, did you come up with it or does it refer to something?

 

I'm sure it unintentionally does refer to something but I came up with it because its my guiding light when I feel (as I often do) lost. I do think it is the answer to most of the really important questions out there. So.. if I'm depressed about work.. I remind myself that the true essence of my life is the people I love (my H and family). If I'm upset with my husband - I try to remember that he loves me and does the best he can and that the chance to love him is a gift bestowed on me and I have to work hard for that sometimes. It's not always going to be easy but its worth it in the end. I don't know. It's a gut feeling more than anything. When all is said and done love is the answer to every problem. Whether its loving yourself, loving others or embracing and respecting the love they have for you.

 

 

I'm sure if you could see & hear me, you'd feel that I am not at all being defensive.

 

IF you are - I think it's natural to be defensive when ENA readers such as myself don't understand you or assume facts that you believe not to be the case.

 

Regardless, at some point people are going to have to accept what's written rather than spending time thinking of what must "really" be happening.

 

We could give advice at face value but the accepted wisdom seems to be that in any fight, there are three sides. His side, her side and the truth. And because posts like this are in the context of a marriage deeply in trouble - no body wants to risk saying anything that will encouage you to make a decision (like ending it) when they feel they only have one side. So that's the reason why I at least.. would prefer to think about her possible perspective or discuss another side to your perception of whats happening - with you.. just to explore that..

 

But I can see why that's frustrating for you.

 

 

Ironically, her inability to take things at face value is a big part of the problem.

 

Well - I think often women in particular don't take things at face value. But that doesn't have to be a problem provided you can respectfully raise and clarify misunderstandings.. which I appreciate you say she cannot do.

 

 

That said, I think if we could figure out her problem that could solve mine. If that's your thinking, then I agree.

 

Yes - I think in the circumstances, if you actually are the more reasonable and insightful one in the relationship then you have to solve what is upsetting her first in order for her to be in a positiont o help you resolve your problems (ie for her to be more open to changing how she fights and to be more respectful of you).

 

 

Here's the thing - you've asked before how it took so long to get to this point. It's because I've tried everything, and that took time. However the end result is the same. And as I pointed out above, I'm doing exactly what she asked me to do.

 

Any chance you are doing what she asked you to do - but you aren't doing it in a manner or way that she likes? Instead you are doing it in a manner which is managing to inflame her? For example (and these are just examples not specific to you because I don't know exactly whats been going on with you two) - if she has asked you to speak to her calmly when upset - and you do so but your tone sounds condescending - then that might not be so productive.

 

Here's another example. Say you are always bringing up things you don't like or changes you would like to make. Say she is sick of you always talking about these negative things. Say she asks you: "instead of bringing this up all the time, can you please just allocate 10 mins each week to talking about it and not raise it during other times?". You agree.

 

Then - next week, you say "lets talk" so she gets all anxious and prepared to hear all the negative stuff. Then you say "I don't have anything to discuss - lets tidy some clutter together". Might it perhaps make her think "why does he have to pretend there's a problem when there isnt even a problem? Why ask to talk about problems when there's not even anything to talk about?" .. Maybe she's so irritated - that something like that really sets her off?

 

So again - perhaps its not the fact that you do what she asks you - but the way you do it that bothers her?

 

There's something going on that isn't because of what I'm doing or saying. I agree she has a lot of angst, but it isn't coming from me, I'm certain at this point. Her lifestyle is one that most would envy, most of which she doesn't have to pay for, and her job is the job she wanted and with better pay and benefits than could be expected with her education.

 

 

There's no point in thinking that her lifestyle would be envied by many because for reasons of her own - she isn't happy with it, right? I have this issue with my husband - his career is one that many would envy. But he is dissatisfied with it because he wants something different (and out of his control) that he can't quite get to. He's unhappy. Telling him "other people would love to be in your shoes" doesnt help. You just have to recognise that X is what your spouse wants and Y are the reasons they expect to and feel frustrated about not achieving X - and while you can talk to them about the liklihood of achieving X or the issues related to Y - there is absolutely no point at all in saying "others would envy you". It's neither here nor there because she doesnt feel what other people say. It's like saying noone in the western world should ever be depressed because at least we arent starving.. at least we arent being raped and persecuted and violently tortured. Because ultimately its our subjective feelings, experiences and environment that impact on our happiness. So don't dismiss her feelings because objectively she should be happy.

 

She may have some medical or psychological imbalance.

 

You can encourage her to see a GP is you think this is the case.

 

My husband was (is?) depressed and its very hard to encourage someone to see a GP or get help when they don't want it. All I could do was put the rational arguments to him as to why getting help is a positive thing; express that I did understand the fear and reluctance on his part to do so and could relate to that; emphasise that it has to be his decision in the end - his health is his responsibility etc. Ultimately though - it took quite a toll on me and it was only when he saw that it was affecting our relationship that he decided to see a GP and get some help. So there is only so much you can do. If you have told her what your fears are about her health (in a gentle non attacking, loving way) - conveyed the benefit of getting a professional's help and opinion - emphasised that you are there for her - and its clear to her that its affecting the relationship and she still does nothing - what more can you do? I mean.. I think you can risk doing too much if you are constantly telling her she needs help. It's her responsibility. SHe just has to take it.

 

At the end of the day if you are in a relationship with someone who will not take any responsibility for her health or the state of your relationship - no matter what the consequence - then you are at an impasse. You really are.

 

 

Abusers count on that, and it's one part of the cycle that I can have some control over.

 

If you see her as an abuser and no longer love her then its going to be really difficult for you both. A few weeks ago when I was at a really low point thinking "how is my marriage going to be a happy one when I'm married to someone who has the genetic make-up and unrelenting, punishing mind frame - that will periodically send him into bouts of depression when life doesnt go perfectly for him - but will not get help for it and would rather those around him feel and suffer his pain with him than address it? How am I going to have a happy marriage in these circumstances? Am I doomed to lifelong stress and unhappiness?" - at that point the only thing that pulled me out of it was being able to reconnect, inside, by myself, to the fact that I loved him. You have obviously been able to do that for many years and now you no longer can because she hasnt given you anything in return for your efforts. She hasnt shown you love in return. It's been all give.

 

But the problem remains - if you don't love her. If you deeply dislike her and have contempt for her (and thats what I feel from you) - how can you possibly keep going? How can you find the reserves within yourself to keep trying? To keep showing respect? To keep showing care and affection? To keep giving? If you dont love her, I don;t know where all of that can come from.

 

 

She'll often claim I'm "provoking" her, and when I ask how she says she can't remember. I can't help but think it's odd that I've apparently done something that could anger someone so extremely yet they can never remember what it was I did to anger them.

 

Any chance that the truth is "I don't know how to explain in words how you are provoking me - I'm afraid you'll just argue back and prove me wrong and I'm not articulate enough to hold my own in that argument against you - so I'm just going to say I don't remember so we don't have to go into it"?

 

 

She'll get mad at me for doing or feeling something that she, or any normal person, also does or feels. But I'm supposed to empathize without question with everything she thinks or feels, even if it's clearly false or unreasonable. Lots of that double-standard.

 

Like what? feeling anger? Maybe she gets mad because she feels responsible and doesnt like feeling that way? Maybe her emotions are tied to yours so if you become emotionally unsettled, she does too and she doesnt like feeling that way? And I'm not saying thats an excuse or justification. I'm really just trying to see it in a sympathetic light rather than a "you crazy not-job" light because I don't think you can continue working towards making the relationship better if you are unable to empathise or even see her in a less deplorable light.

 

 

For example, she'll say she's angry because I don't have time for her. I refer to my calendar which sits in full view so she already knows what she's saying isn't true, and show her I was out only a few evenings the past month - some of those times taking her out to do something we enjoyed together, or I'm off living a healthy life away from the television. In some cases she was out more often than me. Bottom line I was free or with her a good 80%+ of our waking non-working hours, so it's extreme and totally false to say I've got no time for her.

 

So then she'll backtrack and say that even when I am home I am busy.

 

That's not backtracking though. If you are in the same room but not communicating or interacting then that's not really spending time together in the sense that people mean when in a relationship.

 

So why not just appreciate that this is what she means instead of pointing out that your other activities only occupy 20% of your free time? I mean instead of proving her wrong why not want to understand and hear what her problem is?

 

Well, yeah. If we're not doing something I'm not going to just sit there waiting to die. I play music, enjoy my work, excercise, etc. Those are good positive things, and most of them are things she can participate in.

 

I'm not sure how fair that is. If she doesn't enjoy your music, can't do your work with you or wouldnt enjoy it anyway and doesnt enjoy exercise then she isnt going to want to participate in those things. How about finding something you can both enjoy? How about asking her what she would like to do with you or even positively and encouagingly throwing out some suggestions you think she might enjoy? Maybe setting a timetable of sorts where you spend X time each day watching TV together but then you spend Y time doing your own stuff? And asking her if she'd be ok with that?

 

 

End result? Do you think I get an apology? Do you think that's the last I hear of it? Do you think she says "well, if I want more time together I really should just ask instead of lashing out". No, she changes the subject to some other make-believe issue.

 

 

Well most of the issues may be make-believe issues but in the middle of all of them lies one real issue that is causing her to express her frustration, anger and sadness with the make-believe ones.. because she doesnt want (for whatever reason) to actually address the real one. How are you going to find out what the real issue is? If she won't tell you - you may not be able to.

 

 

Oh, and this whole "you're not available" thing will come up again next month and the month after that during an argument (as do most of these "issues"), but certainly never during a discussion, and I'll waste another hour of my life proving what she already knows - that her assertion is bull----.

 

Well you can refuse to participate in repeat conversations. Or at least keep your participation to 30 seconds in total simply referring to everything you said the last time. If a conversation is going down a blaringly obviously unproductive path then perhaps just cut it off as firmly as you can.

 

To me that shows someone that's fabricating something to be "justifiably" angry about. That's not what sincere people do if they want to get along with someone is it?

 

Well.. I have personally been guilty of that in the past but luckily for us, have been able to identify quite quickly that I'm doing it - apologise and then state what my actual problem is. In my case.. I'd get upset about something with my husband (then boy-friend) but deep down I didnt feel that my gripe was justifiable. I didnt feel like it was something I could talk to him about because it wasnt really rational on my part. So I just would pick at something which sounded more rational and complained about that instead. But then I'd look at his face, see that he was confused and hurt and anxious to fix something that wasnt even the problem - realise I could not behave that way - it was hurting him too much for no good reason - and then I'd come clean. I'd say "ok thats not really the problem - the real reason I'm upset is X - I know its not really your fault and you havent done anything wrong - but its still upsetting me, I can't help it thats how I feel" - and then things would be alright.. because I'd gotten my feelings out in the open.. he was no longer confused by me.. and he had a chance to comfort me. But I think in order for her to open up about her real gripe you have to foster a relationship/environment where she feels safe opening up to you - even about seemingly irrational feelings - as long as they are truthfully how she feels. She has to feel safe that if she exposes her real self - her real feelings - not matter how unreasonable or irrational you might objectively view them - you will still accept them as her feelings, help her through them and love her all the same.

 

 

It's a strange game, and I'd like to stop playing it. We're talking about an adult, keep in mind, so if something is causing angst or what-have-you, why not just say so?

 

As I said before.. a deeply entrenched fear (reasonably or unreasonably held) that your feelings are not justified and therefore - you can't talk about them. You have to express your feelings in some other way instead.

 

What's she possibly afraid of?

 

Your reaction.

 

 

She's once or twice over the years said she resents that I'm a happy, positive, person with a good healthy lifestyle. In other words, the very reasons she was eager to be with me and marry me - the very things people want in a mate, and as examples for their kids - is what's causing her to sabotage the marriage or our chance of having a family. Does that only seem bizarre and unhealthy to me?

 

Well I suppose what you might want to appreciate is that on the one hand - you can love all these traits in someone and see the benefit for that person and for you as their partner - while on the other hand, seeing so close, first hand, what life can be like... but being unable (for whatever reason - where you are depressed or lack confidence or motivation) to achieve those things for yourself - can just really emphasise what is lacking in your own life and make you feel something like jealousy. Is it healthy? Not if it starts to negatively affect your relationship (rather than spur her on to improve her life). Is it bizarre? Not bizarre, no. For reasons stated above.

[Hopefully Not]

TennesseeGirl, thanks. I read it. A lot of it hits home. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. My current instinct, and worry, is that you're correct. I'm reflecting on it, and will look up that book.

 

Indigo, I can't thank and respect you enough for taking the time to give this so much thought, type all that, and share your own personal trials in the process. It has made a positive difference. What you wrote is resounding with me and I need to think about it awhile before replying in detail. I admire and appreciate such neutral & balanced thinking a very great deal.

[vicious-cycle]

...

You've been married 10 years.

 

Now either a smart, calm, rational person with a deep sense of self-reflection, fell in love with and married this woman and tolerated this behaviour for a DECADE (indicating some rather massochistic tendancies.. or a complete lack of a backbone - neither of which you paint youself as having)...

 

indigo777 and Hopefully Not, I think indi got her threads confused for a moment. I am the one who's been married 10 years and I am the one without the backbone. Continue with your discussion.

 

 

[Hopefully Not]

indigo777 and Hopefully Not, I think indi got her threads confused for a moment. I am the one who's been married 10 years and I am the one without the backbone. Continue with your discussion.

 

 

 

 

I read your thread. Ugh, geez ... good luck man. Good luck to us both.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

 

I'VE BEEN COUNTING MY BLESSINGS.

 

I've been reading a lot of threads, chiming in on a few, if only that I'm finding it's good practice for trying to see both sides of something, and I enjoy that kind of thing as much as my wife seems to fear it.

 

On the bright side, I don't have to put up with - and never have had to - a lot of the things that seem to be serious problems in some people's lives. Some of those same things we consider blessings in our lives.

 

In a lot of ways, my wife is one of the coolest and most easy-going people I know, and I'd have to say she's extremely reasonable and slow to anger in comparison to some people I read about here. Of course those are probably people in their teens or twenties, but still credit where due.

 

That's partly why we've lasted so long, and also why it bothers me so much we can't get along as we should or it'd be easy to drop her.

 

I'm not saying that means I'm OK with things as they are, just saying I've got a lot to be thankful for.