Long-term solution to "being too nice"?

[Imprecision]

First, let me say that you have a writing style which clearly marks you as an intellectual. You are a smart guy. That's one advantage you definitely have.

 

First off, I'm not lacking in social skills. I may not like large groups of people, but I tolerate them, unlike a truly "shy" person. I can walk into a group of people who all know each other, and it may not be comfortable but I don't let that control me. I talk, I engage the group, I say things about myself. If the group just turns me off, I make the best of it and give them a chance, rather than hiding in the corner or something.

 

Good.

 

After that ended, I've been dating seriously for 4 years. I started out with a pretty high estimation of how interesting I was to women, but 4 years later I know it was false confidence. I've had 12 dates in 4 years, and only one was a success (see above) of any kind. Most were not even interesting to me, they were just all I could get to give me the time of day. Some were VERY interesting to me, but the feeling was not mutual. I make an instant bad impression, and it's based on my looks combined with being "too nice" (which I'm working on of course).

 

Presumably, you want more dates. Twelve dates in four years is way too few.

 

And the real problem: I'm physically unattractive. (I've only recently come to realize just HOW unattractive.)

 

I doubt that's the problem. One of the best pick-up artists I know is extremely ugly. He's short and stout, and his face is just messed up. But women flock to him. I have eyewitness evidence because I see him at malls making out with tall, blonde girls all the time.

 

* So, no dates from "real life" sources. That leaves online. I researched the crooked sites (which is most of them) and the decent ones. OK Cupid isn't bad. Plenty Of Fish IS bad, but both are free so I try both. I've also tried paid sites, just to make the experiment: Yahoo and LavaLife.

 

I don't see why you have no dates from real-life sources. If you have as great a social life as you describe, then you must be doing something wrong on your social outings. You should definitely go for girls from your social outings, even something as simple as getting their msn and then chatting.

 

Nevertheless, you do get dates sometimes from the internet. Yet these dates go nowhere. So you must be doing something wrong on the dates, too.

 

The most important goal of the first date is to establish a sense of emotional connection.

 

I can't detect anything specifically wrong with what you're doing. Intuitively, though, I suspect you're not sufficiently expressive, e.g. you wait for the girl to tell you her opinion before you tell her yours, you keep the conversation on trivial topics, you say clever things hoping the girl would notice, you say things which are meaningful to you but not necessarily to others, etc.

 

Of course, I might be way off, so I must apologise in advance. I would say, though, that to build an emotional connection, you must be willing to be vulnerable. Especially as the guy, you must take the initiative to offer your real views, feelings, and thoughts about things. You must show her your values, beliefs, and goals, and let them stand as they are, whether she approves of them or not. That's one of the most important keys to building an emotional connection with a girl.

 

So in conclusion:

 

1. I can't see anything specifically wrong.

2. You should be getting more dates from real-life sources. You don't have to do something technically difficult.

3. My only advice is to open up more.

 

Anyone else has suggestions?

[Eye]

Thanks for the thoughts. I think I already do the things you describe, but even if so, it's good to be reminded of their importance!

 

(My social life is packed, but I'm not in my 20s when it's easy to find single women my age. I probably only meet a NEW single woman my age once a week or less. How many of those are interesting to me? Less than a third. Should I do even MORE social things? I don't think I have the time or energy )

 

By the way, when I say moving "toward" being a jerk, I don't mean going that far. I mean applying the same tactics I have been (show less attention, etc.) and exaggerating them further. It's against my nature, but step by step it's possible. And my friends uniformly encourage it. "You're too nice." "Should I fake it?" "You should fake it!" I actually mentioned to a (married) female friend today that maybe I shouldn't ask women questions about themselves. She said absolutely--don't ask questions. Make them think I don't care. Women love that. Ugh. But often true I fear.

 

 

Anyway, I just this week started ramping up this more exaggerated strategy. And so far, although I can't prove it, it DOES seem to work!

 

I just wrote online to someone way out of my league. She replied--one of the ones who likes my profile text. Great! We exchanged a couple decent emails, I suggested we get together some time, and then she instantly switched to ignore-mode. (Typical.) Instead of letting it drop, about a week later I snapped (she was just "the last straw") and sent a note rejecting her (even though I'd actually have loved to stay in touch). Nothing TOO rude, but me rejecting her.

 

Guess what? She wrote back trying to convince me to go out with her!

 

I sealed the deal by shooting down her perfectly good date suggestions, and making up something I wanted to do instead.

 

In person, old habits return and I may have asked too may questions and been too "nice." (I'm kicking myself--but it was good time and I let my guard down.)

 

Immediately after the date I got a classic "let's just be friends" rejection. After one date! Ouch.

 

But we'll see if I can salvage the situation. I'll ignore that rejection email, turn up the "rude" just a bit, and see if she starts liking me more again.

 

If she does, it will be depressing and I'll resent her along with all humanity But I'll accept the positive result. I'll report back in a week or so (she's busy until then).

 

Then (in theory) I may finally really NEED to know what comes next.

[LightbulbSun]

Holy crap! I really hope all women aren't like that. I could never carry on that, at least more than 5 mins at a time.

[oldenoughtoknow]

I've always felt that what women want is confidence. That is what (evolutionary speaking) makes them feel safe and secure. You don't have to be a jerk. Think about it - jerks have confidence. They don't care if you come along or not. That's the lure. Women are so drawn to this, that many of them are willing to put up with the rest of the jerks appalling behavior, just to feel his confidence.

 

So how do you exude confidence, with the current lack of saber toothed tigers roaming around to slay? Show direction. Don't ALWAYS do what she wants to do. Show her something you like to do. Take here somewhere you like to go. You don't have to be a jerk. But the label of being "nice," is the guy who never knows what he wants to do..."whatever you want, honey." Boring! That's not being nice. That's being lazy. That's showing no direction. That's not attractive. You don't have to be a jerk to attract a woman, but you do have to bring something to the party.

[Timbone]

I am actually fascinated to see if what Eye has going on will work. I'm in what I feel to be a similar situation as yours, Eye, and the way you handled that last girl on email was masterful. If your next phase works, or if it doesn't, please let us know.

 

These kind of experiments are really intriguing to me.

 

I'm going to pull this with the next few girls I talk to online and see if it works.

[Eye]

Just to be clear on what my plan is--and why it's not downright evil:

 

* I'm not just trying to get into their pants, I want a real relationship (whether it lasts a short time or a long one--I'm open to whatever happens).

 

* I'm not telling blatant lies, insulting them outright, or hurting their feelings to the point of crying or anything.

 

* I'm not trying to be the "ultimate jerk" that we've all seen get mobbed by hungry women. That WOULD be wrong, and outside what my values would allow. And I could never pull it off anyway--I'm not a professional actor, nor a sociopath!

 

* I'm only BENDING my values, not breaking them. I'm not acting the way I think people should act, but then again my standards for behavior are very strict, and much as I might wish they could work in the real world, I fear they just don't.

 

So that amounts to:

 

* Ignore her calls/emails for long enough to be rude before replying.

 

* Decline any and all ideas she has for what to do, or at least the details like when/where.

 

* Have my own ideas of what to do ready in my mind, so I can plausibly say, no--I want to do this instead.

 

* Let her make first contact. Maintain radio silence! (So when this woman I mentioned isn't busy anymore I'll want to contact her. But I won't. Maybe she never will contact me again, but so be it. It's a game of chicken, and if I can't win, nobody wins. I'm not giving in and contacting her.)

 

* Ignore talk of "friends," and never stop with flirty/dating type comments. Never create a vacuum that "friendship" can fill.

 

* Put her down--but in a teasing, humorous way, not cruel.

 

* Say "we're going to go to ___ some time--it's great fun," instead of "Do you want to go to ___? It's great fun." (ETA the difference is that you're stating that you'll get your way, rather than merely asking/suggesting.)

 

* Do NOT ask questions about her. When she says something interesting about herself, bury your curiosity. Grit your teeth and let it remain a mystery. When an awkward silence happens, fill it with a comment, NOT a question.

 

* Turn every topic back to you, and volunteer stuff about yourself. (Be careful. Aim for interesting, of course.)

 

* If you're online, go over your profile looking for anything that sounds flexible, and get rid of it. Then go over it again next week to find what you missed the first time. Don't have "preferences," have demands. Sound picky, not open. Sound like you don't care if you find someone or not, unless they're good enough.

 

* Do not make physical advances. (Obviously there's a time when you must, but don't rush to get there. Once you try to kiss her, or even hold hands, she knows she has the power. Never let her feel that! Hopefully she'll make advances, which you can then accept. At that point showing attraction is necessary--it's just better if you didn't show it first.) This tactic is a double-bonus: As an introverted, "nice" guy with little dating experience and an appearance that makes women climb trees, making the first "move" is really hard--nearly impossible. I'm likely to be rejected, and the risk is huge: if she rejects the advance, I stand to be scarred badly, and it will color every future encounter. The risk is greater for me than for other people. But if letting her make the advances is part of the strategy, that kills two birds with one stone. By the time I'm making my own advances, I already know she'll accept them! (I really hope this isn't just being chicken and making a big mistake.)

 

* It's OK to show compassion to OTHERS--it makes you seem like a good and sensitive person. (I'm open to disagreement on this point--what do you think?) So for instance, you can say you helped your sister move, you can speak out against animal cruelty, you can you talk about your pets... just exclude the girl from all this kindness. Then you're a nice person, just not all that nice to her. Irresistible?

 

So, all that is NOT going as far as the books that tell you to be a real jerk. It's kind of a compromise between that and "just be yourself." I hope it goes far enough to work

 

Now, it's still hard to make myself do, still feels pretty crappy, and takes gradual steps, making myself "worse" little by little. It's possible I'll always resent any woman I get this way. But if it's the ONLY way to get a woman, I think it's worth it. I hope it IS the only way, because it's all I have left to try.

 

(I feel a little ill having said all this out loud Especially now that I'm basically telling others to do exactly the same thing.)

 

 

By the way, my current idea on "what comes next": once we're officially dating and she's seriously into me (could it happen?) then I'm thinking I should gradually fade out the forced contrariness and inattention, and shift subtly to being myself. (This may be easier in theory than in practice.) Most likely she WILL be less attracted to the "real" me, even if she doesn't notice the shift consciously (and she might). However, she may still be "somewhat" attracted to me (I do have actual good qualities). That is a huge step up from "not at ALL" attracted to me, which is what I normally get based on one meeting and snap judgment of my appearance. Thus the plan may be useful even if not perfect.

 

Also, since I'd be spending some time (weeks probably) in the "act," I may well develop habits in how I relate to her--and those COULD last forever. Nothing extreme and forced. But think of how you relate to your parents, and your siblings, and your best friend, and your co-workers... it's different in every case, right? And you don't have to force that--you have developed different habits with different people. So the "not nice" act I develop with a date might partially become lasting habit--at least with that one person.

[Imprecision]

* Ignore her calls/emails for long enough to be rude before replying.

 

This is unnecessary - despite popular opinion to the contrary. When I pick up a girl, I always text her within the next half hour. When I end a date, I always text within the next half hour. When I get a girl's message, I usually try to call back as soon as possible (although at times I'm lazy or I forget to.)

 

* Decline any and all ideas she has for what to do, or at least the details like when/where.

 

Again unnecessary. You should listen to a woman's input on a date.

 

* Have my own ideas of what to do ready in my mind, so I can plausibly say, no--I want to do this instead.

 

Yes, it is a good idea to know what you want to do.

 

* Let her make first contact. Maintain radio silence! (So when this woman I mentioned isn't busy anymore I'll want to contact her. But I won't. Maybe she never will contact me again, but so be it. It's a game of chicken, and if I can't win, nobody wins. I'm not giving in and contacting her.)

 

Really bad idea. You'll miss out a lot by doing this. In courtship - at least at the initial stage - a man must be willing to give. Before you get a first date, you should keep texting or calling until you get a date.

 

Persistence and initiative pay.

 

* Ignore talk of "friends," and never stop with flirty/dating type comments. Never create a vacuum that "friendship" can fill.

 

Again, unnecessary. In fact, it's probably a bad idea. Women want to get to know the "real you."

 

I say this from personal experience - Once, I met this very beautiful receptionist in Beijing. Through persistence, I got her on a date. Throughout the date, I kept flirting with her. I was very forward in my flirting. I turned every topic into an opportunity to tell her how pretty or smart she was. She looked really flattered by this.

 

I texted her after date (as I do after most dates). She replied, "You understand women too well - You know exactly what we want to hear. You made me really happy." So I thought the date had gone well. Unfortunately, she did not see me again after this. Since she worked in the hotel where I was staying, things were very awkward.

 

Upon reflection, I realised what I had done wrong. Yes, it was good that I showed interest. However, I never really talked about serious things - e.g. my goals in life, my values, my views, my family, my friends, etc. Because I didn't talk about serious things, at the end of the date, she felt that she still did not really know me.

 

On my next date, therefore, with the Starbucks barrista from Xidan, I was very open about myself - again, my views, my values, my life in Vancouver, my life in China, etc. Even though she threw a fit at the end of the date, she liked me, so she took the initiative to contact me again after. And I will definitely be seeing her again when I go back.

 

* Put her down--but in a teasing, humorous way, not cruel.

 

This can be good. You should give it a try. Neither necessary nor sufficient, but everyone has his own style.

 

* Say "we're going to go to ___ some time--it's great fun," instead of "Do you want to go to ___? It's great fun."

 

Now, some people will focus on small things like wording. But dating is natural. So I don't believe it actually matters. If you prefer an alternate wording, then go for it.

 

* Do NOT ask questions about her. When she says something interesting about herself, bury your curiosity. Grit your teeth and let it remain a mystery. When an awkward silence happens, fill it with a comment, NOT a question.

 

On the whole, it is better to talk about yourself on a first date. But you can ask her questions if you want to.

 

The best kinds of conversation are when you tell a story, and then she tells a story, and then you get really excited to tell the next story, and then she gets really excited to tell the next story. And then the excitement rolls bigger and bigger.

 

* Turn every topic back to you, and volunteer stuff about yourself. (Be careful. Aim for interesting, of course.)

 

Yes, definitely volunteer information.

 

* Do not make physical advances. (Obviously there's a time when you must, but don't rush to get there. Once you try to kiss her, or even hold hands, she knows she has the power. Never let her feel that! Hopefully she'll make advances, which you can then accept. At that point showing attraction is necessary--it's just better if you didn't show it first.) This tactic is a double-bonus: As an introverted, "nice" guy with little dating experience and an appearance that makes women climb trees, making the first "move" is really hard--nearly impossible. I'm likely to be rejected, and the risk is huge: if she rejects the advance, I stand to be scarred badly, and it will color every future encounter. The risk is greater for me than for other people. But if letting her make the advances is part of the strategy, that kills two birds with one stone. By the time I'm making my own advances, I already know she'll accept them! (I really hope this isn't just being chicken and making a big mistake.)

 

If she likes you enough, she'll make advances. So I agree - you don't have to push for physical advances.

 

* It's OK to show compassion to OTHERS--it makes you seem like a good and sensitive person. (I'm open to disagreement on this point--what do you think?) So for instance, you can say you helped your sister move, you can speak out against animal cruelty, you can you talk about your pets... just exclude the girl from all this kindness. Then you're a nice person, just not all that nice to her. Irresistible?

 

Yes, compassion is very attractive.

 

So, all that is NOT going as far as the books that tell you to be a real jerk. It's kind of a compromise between that and "just be yourself." I hope it goes far enough to work

 

In a sense, when women say "be yourself," they're right. Women like guys who are expressive, open, and honest about their emotions. This is what you should aim for.

[Eye]

Thanks--some good comments. Openness could well be a part of the strategy: just don't express doubts/fears, express instead what you want/like/care about (being careful not to express that you want HER too much at first).

 

The difference that makes some unfortunate things necessary is that if you're not desirable to begin with, you must take these extra measures (in theory at least).

 

Some people can get away with being attentive and nice, for sure.

[BriarRose]

I just want to pipe in and say it's not just men....men don't like nice women, either. I have the "nice" curse, also.

[Knight of Hope]

I like nice women... I'd much rather date a nice, shy woman who has a really deep and fascinating personality than some airheaded "hot" woman. I'd get tired of the airhead quickly, but there'd be the chance I'd fall in love with the shy woman!

[coldplay.]

link removed

 

I plan on reading this book as you should. You shouldnt be ashamed of how you are, we have grown up in a society of women(no offense) told to play nice, discourage for doing things that make men, men. So we are a generation of man-boys, low and behold all the crap we are raised on doesnt help us in the real world.

 

Women want a Man. Someone that doesnt take crap from anyone, that can say no even to the most beautiful one completely unphased, and not her her permeate the entirety of our existence. The worst thing is a lot of girls dont even no this. So they start out dating "nice guys" and further feeds the nice guy mentality that we were raised on, but soon realize that what they want isnt someone that sucks up or whines, or does any passive aggressive bs, but rather a Man.

 

Becoming that Man isnt changing who you are, its freeing yourself from a life of quiet desperation.

[Eye]

I agree--how I was raised (which I'm proud of and happy with on some levels) is a HUGE part of the problem. I never thought about whether more guys are "nice" now than previously, but society certainly does undergo shifts like that.

 

Now, your average self-help book takes a kernel of valuable truth and embellishes it into something bigger for profit. Yet the kernel still IS true.

 

I like nice women... I'd much rather date a nice, shy woman who has a really deep and fascinating personality than some airheaded "hot" woman. I'd get tired of the airhead quickly, but there'd be the chance I'd fall in love with the shy woman!

 

Me too--although nice and shy need not go together. I like shy just fine (but it's not a very dynamic match for my own semi-shy tendencies). I like NICE even better!

 

And yet... I have to admit I could be in the same boat as many women: consciously drawn to one thing, yet UNconsciously drawn to another. (And if so, guess which one wins?)

[BriarRose]

I like nice women... I'd much rather date a nice, shy woman who has a really deep and fascinating personality than some airheaded "hot" woman. I'd get tired of the airhead quickly, but there'd be the chance I'd fall in love with the shy woman!

..

I never said airheaded. And shy does not have to equal nice. They don't like nice - as in available, giving, etc. Men seem to have an extremely high tolerance for what they are willing to put up with in a woman who isn't particularly good to them - these boards are full of them.

 

It exists in women, too, definitely - but I find it more prevelant in men.

[Lonewing]

The long term solution to "being too nice" is finding a woman who truly appreciates it and is simply "too nice" back.

 

Chances are she's not goign to be the pick of the litter, because those girls have the options to be bad - so much attention, so little time...yuck.

[Knight of Hope]

For clarity's sake, in response to everybody who responded to me, I was giving examples of different women. I was not implying that shy = nice (though they do seem to be correlated). By the same token, I was not implying all hot women are airheaded! I meant just what I said... Given the choice between a nice and shy woman who has a really deep and fascinating personality than some airheaded "hot" woman, I'll take the shy woman any day!

 

Also, coldplay, I'm picking up that book you suggested (I love the public library). Maybe it will help me out in the dating realm... I've always thought I just had bad luck, but if it's something more than that, I want to fix it. While being single is all fine and dandy, frankly, I'm tired of it. If this book can help break me out of the "nice guy" mold, then I'm going to follow its advice. Now, I still am going to be a good guy, but I'm no longer going to be the nice guy that all the girls seem to pass over...

[coldplay.]

Ya reading the reviews for the book i take from it that this book isnt to make men bitter, or jackasses ect. but to just realize the way we were supposed to be, to get the most out of this life and be successful.

[Blue Spiral]

I've never really bought the "society sabotages men" idea. I like being civilized, and I don't know exactly what being a "real man" would entail (wood-chopping of some sort?), but it doesn't sound fun.

[Eye]

I've never really bought the "society sabotages men" idea. I like being civilized, and I don't know exactly what being a "real man" would entail (wood-chopping of some sort?), but it doesn't sound fun.

 

I agree. And so do many women! Unfortunately, instinct often still leads them to the "real man," whatever they may say.

 

(And I think we're "supposed" to be decent, nice, ethical, and aware of each other's feelings. Men and women alike. But it doesn't work, so... that's life.)

[coldplay.]

I've never really bought the "society sabotages men" idea. I like being civilized, and I don't know exactly what being a "real man" would entail (wood-chopping of some sort?), but it doesn't sound fun.

 

How can you not? clinical depression rates have gone up 70% since 1900 per capita! our lifestyle is RADICALLY different than it was 100 years ago.

 

Being a man isnt being a neadrathal, or blue collar, but it sure isnt sucking up to women and having no spine, and that is what society has taught us to do, not be confrontational, buy women things and they will like you, do everything your told, isnt society great? And even better your rewarded by spending the majority of your unmasculane existence alone.

 

Western "civilzed" birth rates are not even sustainable, and yes we have WAY LESS sex than third world countries, and id place my money on it being part due to the previously stated facts. Even better, third world countries are HAPPIER THAN WE ARE!!!! So if less "civilized" countries are happier, and have more sex, what good is our civilization? And the last thing 20% of men sleep with 80% of women. Take a gander at who some of those 20% infact are.

[Blue Spiral]

How can you not? clinical depression rates have gone up 70% since 1900 per capita! our lifestyle is RADICALLY different than it was 100 years ago.

 

Yeah, it has...and I'm glad, as I like it.

 

I seriously doubt that most men circa 1900 would admit to being depressed whether they were or not; that's not exactly a rock-solid statistic. That said, I think the current level of depression is just a side-effect of society-wide complexity (or rather, finally acknowledging that complexity), which isn't a bad thing. We are indeed living in a new era, and it'll take a while for us to sort out what our new roles are.

 

Our gender has been on top for quite a while; being demoted to "just equal" is going to take a while to get over, as it gives the impression that women are moving up (compared to where they were), while we're seemingly moving down. As people get used to a life that isn't like that--where both genders start out at the same position--we'll get over it.

 

But if you want to go live in a third-world country, be my guest.

[Eye]

Our gender has been on top for quite a while; being demoted to "just equal" is going to take a while to get over, as it gives the impression that women are moving up (compared to where they were), while we're seemingly moving down. As people get used to a life that isn't like that--where both genders start out at the same position--we'll get over it.

 

I like your optimism We have to deal with how things are now--but they're not done improving! Change is simply slow. And we are more than JUST instinct, happily.

 

Tangent: my theory on why (some) people MIGHT be happier in 3rd-world countries, or in past times when we had no options and everything was laid out to confine us: hope. Having options means the hope that anything is possible. Which is great, but so many things we hope for do NOT happen. That means disappointment, anger, etc. that we would not experience if our lives were rigidly defined. (As in--you WILL raise goats like your father and marry someone from your village, or you WILL marry a daughter of your father's business partners, or whatever.)

 

I still think I like the modern way, and all the options and confusion, better than that. But it's a two-edged sword.

 

And less-modern cultures may well be more conservative and sexually repressed than we are now. Not always true--but sometimes. One look at many reactionary conservative cultures today provides examples.

[coldplay.]

I was making a point, not saying id like to live in a third world country

 

"Our gender has been on top for quite a while; being demoted to "just equal" is going to take a while to get over, as it gives the impression that women are moving up (compared to where they were), while we're seemingly moving down. As people get used to a life that isn't like that--where both genders start out at the same position--we'll get over it."

 

Is life about gender equality, or getting the most you possibly can out of it.

 

Thats their problem, my problem is elevating myself as much as possible.

 

What your doing is called a rationalization. A defense mechanism by which your true motivation is concealed by explaining your actions and feelings in a way that is not threatening.

 

Nice guys are afraid, women dont want to be with men that are afraid. Simple as that.

[Blue Spiral]

Nice guys are afraid, women dont want to be with men that are afraid. Simple as that.

 

Which one of us is claiming that there's a society-wide conspiracy against men? I don't think I'm the one that's afraid...

[coldplay.]

It isnt a conspiracy, its a fact of the matter, just as gender inequality is.

[Eye]

I don't think the two sides of THAT debate will ever come together

 

But I've got my place in the middle: the "old way" is NOT how things SHOULD be, and I'm happy that things are moving in a better direction. And things right now are hard for BOTH men and women (as they always have been--in one way or another). HOWEVER it is necessary in the meantime (say another 50 years?) to ACT as if the "old way" has value. It's fake, it's forced (for me) but unfortunately, here and now, I feel it IS useful for meeting women.

 

I'll be glad when the day comes that "manly men" and "girly girls" are considered unusual, pleasantly quirky, and no more attractive than lots of other ways people can be, including ethical, decent, empathetic and "nice."

 

However, when that day arrives, I will be at the ripe old age of 213, and unable to get it up.

 

So what to do right now? Compromise my values and admit the way the world really is