Long-term solution to "being too nice"?

[Eye]

Although I'm new here, I bet the issue of guys being "too nice" has been discussed about a billion times

 

I don't intend to debate yet again whether it's true. I REALLY hated to think it could be true--I wanted to think that SOME women don't find "nice" less attractive. But I've long ago come to accept that it IS true--so much so that I've never met anyone, male or female, who disagrees. Being "nice" does drive women away. (And I don't mean "weird nice"--gifts to near-strangers. I just mean not being a jerk. Listening, taking their wishes into account--you know... being nice.)

 

So for a couple years I've been practicing the method of consciously being less nice. Don't be such a good listener, don't take so much interest in what they have to say, pretend you object to their choice of restaurant or meeting time, even if you really don't, pretend you don't care about their feelings, etc.

 

But you can only go so far with an act like that. I really AM a nice person, and I really DO care about people's feelings and what they have to say. So I can't pull off a full "jerk transformation" but I'm steadily working to move more and more in that direction. If the experiment works (so far it has--just a little) then I'll be disappointed in humanity... but I'll have dates

 

But... then what? Everyone says that "nice" guys need to take on a fake "jerk" persona to get women. But do you eventually let the real you return, or do you live the lie forever? Or is this tactic intended to get one-night stands, so the long term doesn't matter?

 

There's no way I can play the act for a lifetime. So, is it OK to "bait and switch" once the girl likes you? Can you become "nice"--the real you? My instinct tells me that the spark is likely to vanish and she'll lose interest. You sold her something you couldn't really deliver.

 

So what's the LONG-term solution to the problem of "being too nice"?

 

(This is not a situation I'm actually in--yet. But I'm curious, and folks here have had some interesting insights!)

[Capricorn3]

It is true that being "too nice" is seen in the wrong way. A lot of people can't tell the difference between being "nice" and being a doormat. I see nothing wrong with anyone being nice, as in having decent manners, show respect etc, but it's another thing when you lose your own self-respect by allowing a woman to walk all over you, where you bend to all her wishes, can never say no etc - in other words, being a doormat.

 

You shouldn't change who you are, Eye. Don't fall for that being a jerk will score you a woman and a great relationship - it WONT. I strongly advise you to remain a decent and respectable guy. No need to lower your standards to find a woman, (imo).

[dundermiflin]

I dig nice guys, and if one of them suddenly started being a deck, my interest might go out the window. And people tell me I'm hot and a good catch, so it isn't impossible to find an attractive girl that wants a nice guy.

 

There's a guy that recently won me over simply by being so respectful and kind to me. He honestly didn't care if I picked McDonald's or the Olive Garden; he liked either one and I believed him. My only concern is that he takes it to the level of being walked-on. He'll be like, "what, you're tired? We don't have to go to this party I've been looking forward to all month." Or, he'll help a friend move, that wouldn't be there for him if he were the one moving.

 

At 30, I've had enough of sh*tty guys. Yeah, I've liked them, and chased them. But I've also always had a thing for the really sweet guys. I mean, you darn well better remember our date, and come pick me up on time and open the door for me. Otherwise you lose points. But I really melt for the guy that sneaks in a genuinely sweet, thoughtful gesture, that goes above and beyond. Has to be genuine though. Or a heartfelt compliment that took an effort to say. Very sexy.

 

I don't think "too nice" is specifically the problem for guys; there has to be something else attractive about you though. Like if you are in good shape, dress nicely, are smart, witty, stuff like that. You have to have some skills, Napoleon. Then a girl should just be that much more thrilled that you are nice on top of it all.

[LightbulbSun]

I think there's a difference between being 'nice' and being passive. A lot of nice guys (and I'm not saying I'm immune to this, because I've done it too) are way too passive, and not aggressive enough. I think that's where books like "No More Mr. Nice Guy" come from.

 

Another thing is that jerks have a lot of self confidence, and so ask out the girl while the guy sits, scratching his head and going "Why him?"

[Eye]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

You shouldn't change who you are, Eye. Don't fall for that being a jerk will score you a woman and a great relationship - it WONT. I strongly advise you to remain a decent and respectable guy. No need to lower your standards to find a woman, (imo).

 

You sound like me 3 years ago

 

These days, I'm not a doormat by any means--though I was ages ago with my first/only girlfriend, I admit. But I AM a good listener, and thoughtful, and easygoing in that sometimes I actually AM OK with eating at either X or Y, and will let people who care make the choice. (But when I DO care, I speak up.)

 

There's nothing wrong with the way I am--in fact, in an ideal world, I think everyone would be like me! Except that it's unattractive to women.

 

So I've learned to force an act to some extent, which my friends (yes, women too) have encouraged. And people here have inspired me to push that act further still. (Not the point of being a TOTAL jerk--that would only work in the short term, and it's going too far. But I plan to move more in that direction, at least. Not all the way to evil, just consciously more thoughtless and selfish, I guess.)

 

Consciously, women may think all guys should be like me. Unconsciously, they'll walk past me and flirt with the loud jerk. Not just sometimes--always. And if I ask them out, they usually say no, but even if they say yes, they don't think much of me and they vanish after date one.

 

So I DO need to reject my "decent" standards of behavior. It's really the only thing left that I can control in an attempt to get dates. If I stand on principle, I stand alone

 

So no, I won't be a "jerk" per se--I agree with you, that won't score a healthy relationship, just sex. But it's necessary that I be contrary and inattentive, even if it's an act. It's the truth--and believe me, I hate the idea as much as you do. "Be yourself" is a great slogan, but the world isn't that simple, and denial gets me nowhere. I'll be some of myself, with some jerk mixed in

 

So what happens later, when I grow weary of pretending?

 

I dig nice guys, and if one of them suddenly started being a deck, my interest might go out the window. And people tell me I'm hot and a good catch, so it isn't impossible to find an attractive girl that wants a nice guy.

 

...

 

I don't think "too nice" is specifically the problem for guys; there has to be something else attractive about you though. Like if you are in good shape, dress nicely, are smart, witty, stuff like that. You have to have some skills, Napoleon. Then a girl should just be that much more thrilled that you are nice on top of it all.

 

I believe you're for real, yet statistically so rare that letting you impact my strategy would be senseless It would be more wishful thinking and denial.

 

It's also possible (maybe) that like so many other women I know, you THINK you like nice guys, and consciously appreciate them, but unconsciously feel the evolutionary pull of the alpha male all the same. (I can't guess what's in your head--just saying that what people of any gender are drawn to may not be what they think aloud.)

 

As for "nice" being added onto other attractive qualities: I have many good qualities (smart and witty included) but physically I'm below average--and it's the face, not something a workout can cure. After 4 years of failure to generate interest from women, I do need any help I can get. And I've been dragged kicking and screaming to the realization that this cynical tactic is necessary.

 

A guy who is smart, witty, AND handsome (and rich, and willing to show that off) can probably get by with being "nice."

 

But I've seen plenty of guys without much to offer have luck with women--and they were uniformly jerks. I won't go as far as them, but I will (and already do) put on an act to hide my "niceness."

 

But then what? I know lots of guys use this approach. Where does it eventually lead?

[Capricorn3]

just consciously more thoughtless and selfish, I guess.)

 

But it's necessary that I be contrary and inattentive, even if it's an act."

I have to say it really saddens me to see you actually believe that you have to become selfish, thoughtless and inattentive, etc, just to catch a woman. You seem convinced this is the way to go, so nothing I (or anyone else) say will change your mind. I can only say that I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here, but hey, if that's the way you wanna go, then go for it. I can only wish you good luck.

 

So what happens later, when I grow weary of pretending?

EXACTLY. In essence, all you're doing is living a lie (which eventually always backfires miserably), so I don't understand how anyone can believe it will work. It won't (imo).

 

As I said before - good luck.

[Eye]

Thanks. And it saddens me too

[grymoire]

This is perhaps one of the most depressing threads I have read here... Especially the below sentence:

 

There's no way I can play the act for a lifetime. So, is it OK to "bait and switch" once the girl likes you? Can you become "nice"--the real you? My instinct tells me that the spark is likely to vanish and she'll lose interest.

 

Honestly, is it that bad out there??

[Night Pumpkin]

So called nice guys usually aren't nice. Inwardly they fantasize about torturing and killings their enemies - and some act out their fantasies in real life.

 

All I have to say is just be yourself. Don't try to manipulate people, unless you yourself want to be manipulated.

[Happiest26]

Stop being phony!!!

[Imprecision]

I consider myself good with women. Not in terms of relationships (where I have limited experience but am willing to learn), but in terms of picking up women and making them interested in me romantically (even so far as falling in love with me).

 

I'll say this: Women, by and large, are by nature loyal and devoted. They are generous, self-sacrificing, and willing to give. The love of a woman changes a man, and a real man should live for the women he loves.

 

So you should have faith in women.

 

However, addressing your specific question - No, you don't have to become a "jerk" to get women, at least by my definition of jerk. And no, you don't have to be inattentive, selfish, or thoughtless.

 

What else to say... I think it's better for you to explain how you generally 1. approach women, 2. get dates, and 3. behave on dates. Also, tell us how women behave on and after your dates. This way, I can see concretely what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. Sometimes, a small change makes a large difference.

[Dean_Wincheste]

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

 

 

It's also possible (maybe) that like so many other women I know, you THINK you like nice guys, and consciously appreciate them, but unconsciously feel the evolutionary pull of the alpha male all the same.

 

I couldn't agree more with this sentence. It's sad, but women (not all of them, this is just a generalisation) say and truly believe something (wanting to meet a nice guy and be treated like a queen etc...), but then go and do the exact opposite (have a one night stand with a tall handsome selfish jerk who has no class, because 'it just happened').

 

It's really unfortunate (I think) that a lot of guys feel the need to put on an act (at least upon meeting a girl for the first time) to attract girls. I've been thinking about it too and have even found myself doing it, but I've sort of decided that I'm not willing to do that anymore. I want to be who I am at all times, and if that means being a passive nice guy, so be it.

 

If girls are not attracted to passive nice guys because of the way evolution has hardwired them, well that's just a shame. But I'm not going to pretend I'm an alpha male Neanderthal just to pick girls up. If they can't see that I'm a great guy and that just because I'm passive and nice that means I can't give them good sex or protect them (protect them from what exactly I don't know but we all know, or think we know, that women feel the need to be protected, which I guess is partly why they are more attracted to people who send off alpha male signals), well that's their loss.

 

Sorry for the rant and for saying things that are more than debatable. I'm just a little pissed and disillusioned right now.

[Symbolic]

The last girl I was with, she would want sex and be all over me when she was mad at me, or had just gotten over being mad at me. I play a card game magic the gathering. She was hot, I did NOT want her to find out I play every friday because hot girls don't like guys who have nerdy hobbies. Anyways, she called me while I was there, and asked me what I was doing. I forget what I said, something like "let me call you back blah blah" I guess I did it in a stupid jerkish way. I just didn't know what to say, I have a serious disability when it comes to lying so it was very hard for me and it came out all kinds of bad I guess.

Anyways, after she was done being mad at me over that, for like an hour, she was so responsive to me. Wanted to see me, wanted to have sex, wanted to make plans. The same happened for other various occasions where I was a jerk to her by accident. One time I went out with friends and she wanted to see me. Well it was too late, I was already out with them and I wasn't going to ditch them for her, she got mad about that. the next day shes all over me. Don't know why she was mad she never ditched her friends for me.

One time I saw her at the club! She told me she was going to a family halloween party. So I went to the club with my friends. I saw her there, she got mad at me for not telling her I was going! lol, that was just insane. Obviously I didn't stick around for her but the point is, whenever she was mad at me things were great! I was loving life when she was pissed at me.

[Dean_Wincheste]

Lol Symbolic, that girl is clearly psychologically/emotionally imbalanced! She lies to you about where she was going to be, you find it out by seeing her at the club, and SHE's the one who's mad at you, when you didn't even lie to her about where you were going?! what a nutcase lol

 

Stay away from that girl dude, I hope you ditched her.

 

Man I hope all women aren't like this...

[Jadewhisper]

Umm, Dean, I'm not like that.

Seriously, I think many women tend to lean more on the cautious side. There's so many guys are their best behavior before the true colors start to show.

 

I don't like jerks nor will I hang out with them. Some guys I like I give a certain number of chances to explain themselves if they do something not so nice. (Examples would include: If invited out somewhere to different events, guy keeps making excuses not to go. If guy promises me to help me out with a project,but then backs out of it. etc)

After that, I realize he's not going to take time out for me....which makes me sad.

 

In my young life, I've never had a guy take the time for me.

 

Thus, I've never relied on a guy for happiness nor to have a shoulder to cry on. The U.S. society is an isolated one full of wondrous technology. Think about it....Technology was supposed to make our lives easier. I think it's made us more distant. The end result....more unhappy people unless you're the hermit kind.

[itsallgrand]

Maybe you are just coming accross as caring too much, too fast??

 

The post isn't depressing to me, but then again, I just think you are wrong. lol.

 

Not all of us women are driven like animals to chase the jerk/alpha gorilla with the big meat at his feet. That's not to say that women can't or aren't sometimes attracted to jerks.

 

But I think it's only the decent men - and I say decent, NOT nice - who ever have truly meaningful and long lasting relationships. Because what it requires to be decent, you need that on both sides to have a healthy relationship and to make it work.

 

God, I hate the word "nice"! It reminds me of some 1950's handbook of etiquette and how to land a man for schools. lol. More like a certain standard for behaviors and social oiling that doesn't really apply to human nature half the time. You don't have to be nice to be decent, and decent is what matters eh.

 

The thing about "nice" often times is that it comes accross as needy, desperate, and actually not someone of the type of character that is attractive. I personally do not "buy" when someone says or acts like they really care about me, or all my opinions, or all of my feelings, early on to just getting to know me. It doesn't strike me as honest; it seems more like "manners" and the type of manners that don't make sense to me. Like opening a door for someone when they are the first to the door. Putting manners above common sense.

 

does any of this make sense?. You seem like a funny, intelligent, interesting and decent man. If you have to tone down on the " courtesy and attentiveness" early on, I say go for it! That doesn't mean you stop caring, or turn into a jerk, it means that when the time comes when the other person shows they are worthy of all that and can take it in and show it back themselves, then you can unfurl your full 'sweetness' so to speak. Then you can have fun spoiling a woman, and she won't take it for granted, she won't hold that against you, not if she is a good one.

[JeckyllNHyde]

I guess just continue being nice.. without letting people walk all over you.

Don't be afraid to end a friendship or relationship with someone/a girl if they don't seem to be putting in as much effort.

 

It's ok to compliment, nice in fact. But only if they seem to be liking it (genuinly) and maybe give you a few back.

I'm a bit put off by TOO nice guys, since they seem to try too hard. I'm guessing the same goes for others who don't like it. I almost would have walked away from the guy I'm in a relationship, b/c he was so nice... and way too complimenting, till I had to ask him to please stop- makes people uncomfy.

[Knight of Hope]

You know, this just might work... A lot of times, I do feel as if I come accross as having too strong too early on. Thanks for posting!

[itsallgrand]

Well I'm glad someone found it useful! Getting carried away in my long winded typings again.

[JeckyllNHyde]

Well I'm glad someone found it useful! Getting carried away in my long winded typings again.

 

And that's what I love about your posts!

 

I agree about caring too much too fast. I've made the mistake myself in the past.

[Knight of Hope]

I thought of stuff to add. So here goes:

 

Yeah, my problem is that I am honestly a caring person (isn't that ironic!). Even on a first date, I really do care about what the woman has to say, and so I listen very closely and attentively. She's lived a good two decades at least, and she's bound to have some good stories! And she agreed to go out with me, so I figure she is deserving of my respect.

 

In any case, I always think she deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don't know her yet, and so I don't know her. Thus I shouldn't judge her (too much... we all have to judge a little bit when we're out on dates).

 

But like I said before, I think I let my caring side show too fast. I do care, and it's genuine, but too much too soon might seem fake to women?

[itsallgrand]

Have you ever been in the reverse position? Someone who you may very well find all sorts of good things about, but they just seem into you really fast? It's not that being attentive, sweet, genuinely interested (love that, it's rare) etc. is bad in itself.

 

But it's this part of a lot of us, I guess, that sort of balks at things coming too easily. Women like to feel like there is a bit of challenge there, just like guys. The mystery and fun of that suspense, I guess.

[Knight of Hope]

Have you ever been in the reverse position?

 

Actually, no. I've never really been the type that women are just attracted to. I'm a bit shy - getting to know me takes a little longer. I'm not the most attractive guy, either. I mean, I don't think I'm bad-looking (and my mom tells me that I'm really handsome lol). I think I have a picture up on my public profile if you want to see what I look like.

 

But let's say that a girl did come on to me really fast, and that she seemed to be the lovely caring type of woman I've always wanted, but that her caring side seemed to come accross really strongly. Two feelings would be running through my mind. First, I'd be THRILLED that she was so interested in me, that she was so nice, so caring, so sweet. Second, I would be slightly alarmed (no sarcasm intended). She probably doesn't know me very well, so why does she care so much? I would honestly think this (unless I was instantly and completely smitten), but I'd still give her the benefit of the doubt. Again, I don't know her, so how do I know if she's genuinely nice or if she's putting on a super-sweet act? I'd like to believe that there's good in everyone, that her instant care (though strong) is genuine.

 

But I'm a really trusting person, and not everyone is, so...

[Eye]

Here's a related question, based on the fact that this all comes down to animal instincts:

 

Do those few women who truly seek "nice" rather than "aggressive" have lower sex drives? I want a complete relationship (I've never had one) and I wonder if women who would accept my "niceness" would be ones who don't have much interest in that kind of intimacy? Does being "nice" draw women who I could never be happy with? I have no opinion or answer--just wondering aloud.

 

 

So called nice guys usually aren't nice. Inwardly they fantasize about torturing and killings their enemies - and some act out their fantasies in real life.

 

 

 

Well, that echoes something I saw in another thread--that "nice" guys are not to be trusted. I'm truly nice, not an act, so this is a disturbing complication to realize! But I'm sure many women think that. The jerk is the one they can trust, and the nice guy is the creep

 

(For the record, I'm not "creepy-nice," giving extra compliments or gifts or bending over backwards. I know what's appropriate and what's creepy. I do NOT seem especially "into them"--in fact, initially I had to learn not to hide my interest. And I don't GET super interested at first. I get to know people slowly, and although I form quick impressions, I know full well that they tend to be wrong. So I'm always coming from the perspective of "this person seems interesting--let's see." Nothing over the top. The single nicest thing I do is listen and ask questions--because how else can I decide whether I'm interested or not? And women LOVE to be listened to, so you'd think it's win-win. But it's not. They enjoy that they got to talk, but then they move on to a guy who doesn't let them.)

 

 

If girls are not attracted to passive nice guys because of the way evolution has hardwired them, well that's just a shame. But I'm not going to pretend I'm an alpha male Neanderthal just to pick girls up.

 

I agree--neanderthal (and the advice in certain "self help" books) is taking it TOO far. But I can't just say it's "their loss." If I'm alone forever, it's my loss too.

 

Those who say you can "just be yourself" are probably people who CAN just be themselves and get the interest of women. Many can. I can't--and it's been 4 years of trying, in a variety of ways, with the support of wise friends. (They are the ones--men AND women--who pushed me to the idea of being less nice to begin with.)

 

Also, I understand that we should be careful not to say that ALL women or ALL men are a certain way. It's just that the trend is so strong that finding a woman who isn't that way is rare. (I don't blame them--it's evolution plus culture--one of which has the goal of babies, the other has the goal of selling, and neither has the goal of happiness.) And finding a woman who will like me to begin--and who I like in turn--with is also rare. Rare multiplied by rare equals essentially impossible. There's some small hope of finding someone with a real, down-deep attraction to nice guys, but it's so tiny it may as well be a lottery ticket--not a source of real hope. I spend a long time unwilling to face those odds, but action is needed, however disillusioning it may be. Life is imperfect. There isn't always a good option to pick. So I have to at least be brave enough to pick the best of the bad options!

 

 

But let's say that a girl did come on to me really fast, and that she seemed to be the lovely caring type of woman I've always wanted, but that her caring side seemed to come accross really strongly. Two feelings would be running through my mind. First, I'd be THRILLED that she was so interested in me, that she was so nice, so caring, so sweet. Second, I would be slightly alarmed (no sarcasm intended). She probably doesn't know me very well, so why does she care so much? I would honestly think this (unless I was instantly and completely smitten), but I'd still give her the benefit of the doubt. Again, I don't know her, so how do I know if she's genuinely nice or if she's putting on a super-sweet act? I'd like to believe that there's good in everyone, that her instant care (though strong) is genuine.

 

That's exactly how I'd be. In fact, that's exactly what happened with the one and only successful date I've ever had. (Success meaning it was fun and turned into additional fun dates.) We dated for a few weeks and then split up very amicably--we weren't mutually compatible. She remains a close friend and a valued dating advisor to this day.

 

 

Maybe you are just coming accross as caring too much, too fast??

 

What else to say... I think it's better for you to explain how you generally 1. approach women, 2. get dates, and 3. behave on dates. Also, tell us how women behave on and after your dates. This way, I can see concretely what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. Sometimes, a small change makes a large difference.

 

Yes, I maybe I should explain At least so people don't think I'm evil!

 

Let's see...

 

First off, I'm not lacking in social skills. I may not like large groups of people, but I tolerate them, unlike a truly "shy" person. I can walk into a group of people who all know each other, and it may not be comfortable but I don't let that control me. I talk, I engage the group, I say things about myself. If the group just turns me off, I make the best of it and give them a chance, rather than hiding in the corner or something.

 

And I am very good at reading people and situations. All my friends come to me for advice--about coworkers, strangers, but especially about people they're dating. They'll tell me what the person said, or how they've been behaving, and I will see right through to that person's feelings, and predict what they'll do next. And I'm right--sometimes many weeks before my prediction comes true. For instance, maybe a friend thinks I guy isn't into her, and tells me why, but I can tell her that he IS into her. Or vice versa. And at the end of my own dates, I always have a very good sense of how well (or generally not, it went). I KNOW whether they will contact me again first, or wait for me to do so, and whether they'll give me the brush-off or not. I know whether they like me so far (which they often do) and I know whether they like me in "friend" way or in a "potential dating" way. (It's almost always the former.) Then we communicate, and my prediction is usually right. At the same time, I don't take my intuitions TOO seriously--I test them, because everyone's wrong sometimes. I'm usually not.

 

History-wise, I had one long-term relationship (a decade and change) that didn't even start with dating. It grew out of a teen friendship, and was basically just a youthful, ignorant mistake. A very long one. (She cheated on me for the whole time we were together, which dropped my youthful self-esteem to rock bottom. I recovered eventually, left her around age 30, and will never let anyone treat me like that again. I can see parallels to a beaten woman who stays with her man. Hindsight is 20/20. One good result: I learned the hard way to open up to friends/family about my problems. They could have helped me sooner if I'd let them know the situation.)

 

After that ended, I've been dating seriously for 4 years. I started out with a pretty high estimation of how interesting I was to women, but 4 years later I know it was false confidence. I've had 12 dates in 4 years, and only one was a success (see above) of any kind. Most were not even interesting to me, they were just all I could get to give me the time of day. Some were VERY interesting to me, but the feeling was not mutual. I make an instant bad impression, and it's based on my looks combined with being "too nice" (which I'm working on of course).

 

And the real problem: I'm physically unattractive. (I've only recently come to realize just HOW unattractive.)

 

 

My approach to GETTING dates

(Remember, I started my one long-term relationship very young, with basically no dating experience--other than watching other people--until 4 years ago.)

 

* Rule number one: try MANY approaches. Experiment. Don't get stuck in a rut.

 

* Meet people in person by just talking to people at events--not just women, but men. I make a point of speaking to everyone in the room and remembering their name and something about them. I'm not afraid to talk to the quiet ones who linger on the edges. I'm not afraid to talk to the popular, glamorous ones either.

 

* Go to lots of events--don't sit at home. Go out with friends several times a week. Go out with strangers several times a week! (By that I mean various clubs/activities I participate in. Some selected based on my interests, and some based on the number of women involved--as long as I have SOME real interest. I'm not joining a knitting club!)

 

* Most activities I find through Meetup (not a dating service--it's an organization-management/RSVP system, kind of like Yahoo Groups only dedicated to real in-person locak events). That means I can email any woman I just met, and she can reply on Meetup OR by email, depending on her comfort level. What I do is send a very short message with a follow-up on something we had been discussing. "Hi - Here's that movie we were talking about." Or a question. Something like that. If they don't even respond to that, then that's that. If they respond, then I start a correspondence (but they always ignore me after an email or two--always). If they reject this initial contact, I'll still talk to them at future events. You never know what might grow. (And it does: always "just friends" and nothing more. They let me down gently and I try to forget the embarrassment and not let it stop me from trying again with someone else.)

 

* Make sure all my friends and acquaintances know I'm available. They'll set me up with people! (They don't. I take an interest in a friend of theirs and they're a little uncomfortable about it. Basically, they know I'm not what someone's going to want, and they regretfully can't recommend me. Based on looks alone.)

 

* So, no dates from "real life" sources. That leaves online. I researched the crooked sites (which is most of them) and the decent ones. OK Cupid isn't bad. Plenty Of Fish IS bad, but both are free so I try both. I've also tried paid sites, just to make the experiment: Yahoo and LavaLife.

 

* The problems with online dating are obvious. (Tons of men, few women, and women who either seek only attention/validation, or have inflated egos thinking they can hold out for perfection. Men get ignored, lower their standards and shorten their emails, mass-mailing to get ANY response. Women get spammed with useless messages as a result. Men and women expect the worst of each other, and usually get it. People are at their worst when they are anonymous. Hilarity ensues.)

 

* However, I do get some dates--one every 4 months on average--from online sources. I start by writing: friendly, humorous, but SHORT--not long and creepy. I always a) mention something in their profile so they know I read it, and b) ask a question so they have an easy option to craft a response to me.

 

* The messages are almost always ignored (and ALL men experience that) but once a in blue moon a correspondence starts. More often, they contact ME. (I have a very funny and likable profile, I am told--except for the photos of course.)

 

* Don't ask them out immediately--it's creepy.

 

* Don't wait very long--the window of correspondence may only 2 or 3 emails! Strike while the iron is hot.

 

* Always write with humor (they like the humor in my profile after all). Don't write too short or too long. Don't answer right away (desperate) and don't leave them hanging for days. 12 to 24 hours seems like a good response cycle, with the occasional quick reply being OK.

 

* Always ask a question--make it easy for them to reply. Their mailbox is packed, after all. They're going to ignore most people. (I notice they almost NEVER ask any questions in return. "Maybe she's just not that into me." But I pursue all the same--it's that or no dates at all.)

 

* Always have a profile picture. I get more responses with no picture--but every single email correspondence ends when I send a picture. My ego doesn't need that, and it's a waste. So have the picture up from the start. Choose the BEST picture (with the help of friends) even though in person I may not live up to that one lucky shot. Use a recent picture--it's only honest.

 

* Talk on the phone first if they're open to it (using the phone to "make plans" is a good excuse). This breaks the ice a little so it's not so awkward at first meeting.

 

* Choosing who to write to: I focus on those with something in common, and especially those with interesting profiles (which does partly include appearance), and I choose women close to my age. OK Cupid has a decent "matching" system, which I find valuable in addition to the profile text itself. But I also cast a wider net just to be thorough: I write to a few with boring profiles, a few with no pictures or bad pictures, a few who are several years older or younger. A variety. (The boring or unattractive ones are more likely to respond--but not by much.) And I always do write--no lazy "winks" or "smiles" from me.

 

 

My approach when ON a date

 

* All this analyzing can be useful, but now is not the time. Be myself, and be in the moment. Luckily, I can forget my doubts while actually on the date, and just focus on having a good time. In fact, even when a date is going badly, I don't really FEEL bad until after it's over.

 

* Appearance: I make sure I dress fashionably and have a good haircut. My friends are very helpful in giving me feedback on this.

 

* Choose an activity that fosters conversation. A meal is OK--especially if I can recommend a fun place the girl hasn't tried. But a park walk or museum is great because a few silences are expected and not awkward. A movie is useless. I never do a movie date.

 

* Use humor--it's my best trait, and I've been told many times that I'm the funniest person someone has ever met. (You wouldn't know it from my black mood when I post here )

 

* Show my knowledge and intelligence, but don't show off. Don't put them down or act superior, and be willing to show an interest in the knowledge and intelligence SHE has too. (This is a mistake probably--I should keep it more one-sided.)

 

* Ask questions. You can always fill silence pleasantly if you let someone talk about themselves--and there are things I want to know! (Another mistake--I should ask fewer questions, if any. They seldom ask questions, so why should I?)

 

* Talk about myself. Don't wait to be asked. Tell stories. Turn any topic into something interesting I've done or thought. When they ignore it and don't ask questions, keep at it anyway. Just make sure it IS interesting. Don't drone on about boring stuff (I'm not "that guy.") Don't dwell for ages on any one topic.

 

* If things go wrong (food late, drink spilled, long line, whatever) take it with humor instead of getting pissy about it. (That doesn't mean let the restaurant get away with a mistake--I'll say if I got the wrong thing!) I'm good at defusing bad situations and even making them fun. (Possibly also a mistake: some fake anger/pissiness might be more "manly"--the woman would dislike it BUT be attracted to it all the same?)

 

* Smile, say I had a great time, but don't lay it on thick. Never show TOO much interest. And this is basically just honesty: I don't judge people quickly. I may like them a little, I may be eager to find out if there could be more, but I simply don't know yet.

 

* No kiss. They never try to kiss me (except the one "good date" above) and I never initiate. This is a FIRST date (that's all I usually get) and I'm some guy from online. Physical advances are not welcome. (I've had women warn me "don't try to kiss me.") Now I WOULD make more of an advance if there was chemistry--I know the guy has to be the aggressor--but that has only happened the once.

 

* But, in theory, they MIGHT expect or want a kiss (doubtful but possible). So to avoid it being a blatant rejection, I don't stand too close to them as we leave the place.

 

* No flowers, no gifts, no weird gestures. This is a first date, again, and I don't yet KNOW what I think of her. Weird gestures would be both fake and creepy.

 

* No discussion of my ex, no discussion of past dates, or dating habits, or "women" in any way. At most, if we met online and she's a little weird about that, a single joke about online dating to bury that tension.

 

* Assume I'm paying and say "I've got this" when the check comes. If she objects once (just courtesy--they usually do) I pay anyway. If they insist (which is rare) then I let them pay their way.

 

 

My approach AFTER a date

 

* Contact them again--usually by email, but by phone if we really hit it off (happened once). Not the same day, but the next day. Make it brief: tell them I had a great time, and make some humorous reference to something we talked about. (Even if I didn't have a great time, I'm always open to a second date--it takes time to get to know people, so why not give things a chance?)

 

* Depending on how badly it went, I either hint at getting together again to sound them out, or ask outright. I never close the door--I will always take a second date (rarely an option) even if I'm not interested. Maybe I'll GET interested. May as well find out.

 

* If (when?) I get rejected, I resist the impulse to mope, be a martyr or "take my ball and go home." I can cry privately, but I never lash out at the woman. I act like I had a great time but I agree there's no connection (acting as though the rejection is mutual) and wish them good luck. Maybe follow up with some topic we'd been discussing (briefly--nothing long that demands an answer) just to show that the tone is still friendly. For one thing, they often did like me--just not in "that way"--and so there's always the hope in my mind that they might set me up with a friend of theirs (never happens, but you never know). So I keep a confident stance even in rejection.

 

* Talk to friends about exactly what happened. Learn as much as I can from the experience.

 

 

My approach to all of it

 

* Be self-aware. Don't be in denial. Don't assume something works. Don't assume it doesn't. Examine what I'm doing and thinking, and how I come off. Adapt if needed. (Which is why I'm on this site, after all.)

 

 

That's all I can think of. So... any advice is welcome!

[USARM]

Eye & Knight of Hope:

 

Ok, first, here is my situation; I'm a "nice" (god I hate that word) guy. I do the easy things like open doors etc, but also would go out my way to help someone if I had nothing else to do. I know I do this and thought about changing it - you know the way it goes - start being a great friend and the desire for them to have sex with you goes down (for most girls anyway), anyway, the last girl who was really interested in me (went so far as to ask what would happen at the end of next summer when she heads up north (USA) for studying and I would be quite a long way away for 4 months.

 

Anyway, she had long term planned out, I did the "nice" thing and actually told her the truth (this is always wrong if you tell them the truth and even worse if you lie, you're never going to win here) anyway, when I was back from vacation, we had great sex a couple of times (her words, unprovoked, not mine), then in a flash she decided that she didn't want anything more (confused, me, very...). I'm convinced that it was down to just being nice (great guy, great friend etc etc not into you...), she's now with someone from military school (not meaning to stereotype, I have huge respect for all armed service people) but he's what you think of when you think of military school guys, it helps he's probably 220lbs and works out. (btw I'm in great shape, only 150lbs, but I do work out a lot) I'm confident - I can walk into a room on not knowing anyone and will be talking to people all night. I'm pretty good looking (I'd say 'fair', but my ex says I'm above that - check out my other post if you care why I split with her)

 

Anyway, back to what I was trying to say; I thought about changing, being a jerk (not a total jerk, just toning down how "nice" I am now). For a while I really did want to act like this. Moral of the story is it doesn't work, you are who you are, if they don't like it, they're not going to. So forget it. BE WHO YOU ARE AND FIND SOMEONE WHO LIKES YOU FOR IT. I'm a great guy, I don't care if that sounds self-centered. Most girls would love someone who does what I do for my friends, and they tell me that a lot (my friends). Sometimes it doesn't work out so well for my sex life, but hey it could be worse you could look like a chimp and act like a jerk. So forget about trying to change, you may lose several but when you do find someone, they will like you for who you are, not for some fool that you're acting to be.

 

Conrats if you actually read all that, hope it helps. Btw I still bug myself over why she suddenly changed her mind about me, talking about (almost) wanting to be together forever, to nothing, in days. But it can't be changed, it's in the past, don't let it affect you and just work on your future. Hope it works out for you.