Appropriate boundaries with married people...Red flags to look for?

[stella74]

I've been reading this forum with interest lately because of finding out recently about a couple of my married male friends who were caught engaging in affairs. It really shocked me and has made me feel suspicious around all my male friends now, especially because many men I know are at that mid-life crisis stage. I've never had an affair nor had anyone cheat on me. Yet now I look at all my male friends and colleagues and think - is he having an affair? would he want to have an affair with me? I feel very vulnerable because I'm single.

 

On the one hand, I'm very street smart and I know how to tell if a married man is hitting on me. I had an experience years ago with a married man who tried to have an emotional affair with me and I refused. I'm sure he wanted a sexual affair too, although he never tried anything. He said all the classic lines, such as telling me he and his wife no longer had sex and that she no longer was in love with him, that she didn't understand him the way I did, that he was going to get divorced from his wife and wanted to be with me, etc. He'd call me at home or try to get me alone with him "just to talk", and it was really hard to constantly tell him I didn't believe in having affairs, including emotional affairs. I told him we could talk after he got divorced.

 

On the other hand, though, since I don't have first hand experience with infidelity, I'm worried there may be more subtler red flags I'm ignoring or not noticing. I'm afraid of being too naive. I'm constantly worried about doing inappropriate things that may inadvertently signal to a married man that I'm open to an affair when that's the farthest thing from my mind.

 

So, could any of you with more knowledge and experience please enlighten me (and hopefully others)? What are some red flags to notice that would indicate that someone is subtly setting up a situation, emotionally or physically, so that an affair could happen more easily? Are people who engage in affairs similar to sexual predators or are they basically people with poor impulse control? What are ways a married person might try to wear down the boundaries of someone he or she wanted to have an affair with?

 

Any thoughts or feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[lavenderdove]

I think the key to understanding this is recognizing that married men who love their wives and don't want to cheat don't spend a lot of time socializing with single women, whether that is chatting them up, going to lunch/dinner alone with them, calling them on the phone or engaging in a lot of email or IM that doesn't also include their wives in the socializing.

 

It's a variation of understanding you shouldn't ever put yourself in a 'compromising position', which means spending alone time/talk of any kind with a married man. You can have pleasant/normal chats with men you work with, but then you don't go to lunch alone with them, nor do you spend time on email/phone really cultivating them as friends. You might joke about things related to the office, or talk in groups of other people with them, but you don't spend much one on one time with them.

 

It also means deflecting their attempts to get alone time with you. If one of them asks to lunch with you alone, you would tell them no, you have errands to run on lunch, then suggest you do it some other time (and invite others out to lunch at the same time). So draw that boundary that doesn't allow them opportunities to flirt or say/do things that might lead you down that road.

 

Also be especially careful if you go on business travel with them, because lots of cheating attempts happen then. Tell them you're tired and going back to your room (alone) early, and don't party or drink with them alone.

[renaissancewoman101]

But, isn't socializing and schmoozing a part of work life, and a way to get contacts, climb the work ladder, etc?

 

There is a fine line that is socializing and avoidance. You don't want to be seen as the office prude either.

[lavenderdove]

btw, i've met men who are sexual predators, and others who just have poor impulse control. It doesn't really matter what their motivation is, it is your actions that will control whether it goes further. They can't lead you down any path you don't want to go.

 

If you practice the philosophy that you don't put yourself in compromising positions alone with them (especially involving partying alone or drinking with them), and don't engage in flirting and personal email/IM messaging, you will avoid most of the problems.

 

You don't have to be rude to reject the personal attempts, just assertive. If someone starts sending you flirty email/IM, then don't play. Only respond to mail that is work related, and ignore any personal attempts. If they call on the phone and try to take it personal, tell them you're busy and can't talk. Draw your line, and stick to it.

[melrich]

I'm constantly worried about doing inappropriate things that may inadvertently signal to a married man that I'm open to an affair

 

Why?

 

I find that really strange. It's like you have some sort of guilt complex.

 

Married men are just like unmarried men....in fact they were unmarried men until they got married. Treat them the same as you would any platonic male friend. The odd man (married or unmarried) may hit on you. You seen in tune with the signs. If they are married, shut them down.

[lavenderdove]

Most people who work contacts in business situations do it in groups, or at work itself. They are pleasant to one another, but they don't make close friends or engage in heavy flirtation with people they work with.

 

For example, they might eat a sandwich at their desks together now and then with a married man or lunch in the work cafeteria, but they don't go out drinking or eating unless it is expressly a business dinner or in groups with other people.

 

And to be honest, if you want to succeed in business (and not by having sex with the higher ups), then you need to behave professionally in all circumstances and not flirt. Honest men understand the lines, and don't try to cross them, and men trolling for affairs do.

 

I've never been taken for a prude, and i have lots of business contacts and friendly relations with people i work with, but i turn down every attempt any married man makes to see me alone for eating/drinks/dinner partying or initiate any kind of flirting. If there's a group i go, but never alone.

 

And if someone says I look nice today (referencing my appearance or trying to flirt), i thank them very much and say i just bought the outfit on sale or whatever, just relate to them like i would another woman commenting on an outfit rather than starting up a flirtation by saying something back like you look good too... I will also ask them how their wives and kids are, and talk to them about their family events if they try to take it personal or off track, to refocus them on their family rather than flirting with me.

[COtuner]

I don't agree, I think different generations see things a bit differently. My entire career I've gone out with guys alone, even on business trips, and I've never had a married coworker hit on me or do anything inappropriate. Ever. It's perfectly acceptable and normal to hang out together.

 

I was out for drinks the other night with someone quite senior to me who was married. We had a great time. No big deal. I'm going out tomorrow afternoon with a married male coworker - his wife sent me a "hello" as a matter of fact. Doesn't bother her at all. Another married male colleague and I go out quite often for a drink or to run errands or whathaveyou and it couldn't be more platonic, and again, his wife is completely cool with it.

 

The signs I have seen from married men cruising for some "action" include: not telling their wives who they are with or where they are ("I'm working late"), lots of eye movement up and down your body when talking to you in a somewhat appreciative manner, buying you drinks instead of automatically assuming you're splitting the bill, spending a lot of time with you alone talking about YOU and not much about himself or work or current events or whatever. Usually they openly hit on me, which makes it easy to identify them

[stella74]

Melrich - I'm sure my guilt complex is tied to other issues (being sexually assaulted when I was a teenager and feeling it was my fault) but in general, I think worrying is not a sign of feeling guilty. I think a lot of women worry about being taken advantage of by men - either we've had bad experiences or we've been taught to be self-protective.

[Crazyaboutdogs]

I agree. I think it can get to the point where someone is just too paranoid to treat their married colleague like a human being. It becomes a problem only if there is an inordinate amount of time spent alone together that is not business related. If peole don't want to cheat they won't cheat even if they are alone with a business colleague. I don't believe in the notion of "certain situations make it more likely to happen" as if people have no control over themselves. People do have control over themselves...when they lose control it is because they have done so willingly and were up for it even before the circumstances were thrown in their way.

[stella74]

lavenderdove and COtuner, you both bring up good points. Thanks. I'm just listening and taking it all in. I'm very interested in the subtle signals that lavenderdove brings ups, because whether one spends time alone with men for business or not, those are some good red flags to look out for.

[stella74]

CAD, I agree with you about having control over one's behavior. I hope I can continue to take responsibility for my own behavior and act appropriately in accordance with my values. But I do think that sometimes boundaries get blurry and that's why it's good to notice subtle red flags.

[COtuner]

And if someone says I look nice today (referencing my appearance or trying to flirt), i thank them very much and say i just bought the outfit on sale or whatever, just relate to them like i would another woman commenting on an outfit rather than starting up a flirtation by saying something back like you look good too... I will also ask them how their wives and kids are, and talk to them about their family events if they try to take it personal or off track, to refocus them on their family rather than flirting with me.

 

This is a good response as to how to "hang out" with married guy friends if you have concerns. All of my married friends talk about their families when we're together, although since I have no kids or husband, they realize I can't relate beyond listening to the story.

[melrich]

I'm sure my guilt complex is tied to other issues (being sexually assaulted when I was a teenager and feeling it was my fault) but in general, I think worrying is not a sign of feeling guilty.

 

Maybe. Maybe it is just a female perspective. Just seems to me to be an unusual thing to worry about. Maybe that is just a male perspective.

[HellFrost666]

Think what your boundaries would be if you were married. Then don't cross them with married people.

[stella74]

Melrich and HellFrost, are there any red flags you've noticed with married women trying to hit on you or set up an inappropriate situation to see if you'd go along with an affair? I'm curious about the male perspective on this.

[melrich]

are there any red flags you've noticed with married women trying to hit on

 

No. Maybe I am oblivious to these things but I am pretty sure no married woman has ever tried to hit on me (and I don't blame them!!).

 

I agree with the poster above who said the signs are usually pretty easy to read and I think your radar is in tune enough not to miss them.

[HellFrost666]

Melrich and HellFrost, are there any red flags you've noticed with married women trying to hit on you or set up an inappropriate situation to see if you'd go along with an affair? I'm curious about the male perspective on this.

 

Lol... well actually, my girlfriend was married when I met her. (Yea, I'm such a homewrecker, I know!)

 

And it wasn't even her who hit on me... It was the other way around.

[annie24]

i would try to behave with him in a way that you would if his wife was there. i have male friends who are married. i certainly don't lead them on, or but i may joke around with them - in the same way i would even joke around with a female friend or an unmarried male friend.

 

yeah, just don't do anything you wouldn't do in front of his wife, and you're ok.

[stella74]

Thanks Annie.

 

I've been thinking a lot about this thread today. I've come to a great realization. I think aside from any leftover guilt feelings I have about the sexual assault, I also feel I didn't handle the situation well with the married man who wanted an affair with me. The minute he started talking to me in a way I knew intuitively and in my gut was inappropriate, I should have stopped talking to him completely. We were colleagues and I didn't have to work on projects closely with him.

 

So why did I tell him we could talk after he got divorced? We both knew that talking meant leading to a relationship. Knowing now what I know now from all I've read on ENA, I would never consider a relationship with someone who attempted to have an emotional affair with me. Yet, at that time I didn't understand that. I figured that as long as he got divorced, it would be okay to consider a relationship with him. Even my mother and friends encouraged me to consider a relationship with this man if he got divorced! But something in my gut told me he was acting inappropriately, and sure enough he never got divorced.

 

I guess I blame myself for not taking enough responsibility for my behavior by not noticing enough red flags, and that's how I felt with the sexual assault as well. Looking back on things, I feel my behavior didn't align with my values because I gave into pressure from my mother and friends to give this man a chance. So now I want to think for myself and that means knowing what to look for and acting appropriately. Hope that makes sense.

 

I feel really grateful for all the feedback. It's helped me a lot and I hope others as well.

[renaissancewoman101]

In regards to your sexual assault, DON'T BLAME YOURSELF!!!! Please don't. It was not your fault.

 

I feel bad for you for beating on yourself for something that was beyond your control.

[Ellie2006]

Maybe. Maybe it is just a female perspective. Just seems to me to be an unusual thing to worry about. Maybe that is just a male perspective.

 

OP, I do think maybe some of your past experiences are coloring how you interact with your male colleagues.

 

I act in a professional manner but I am not constantly vigilante about how to interact with a male colleague. If they do or say something inappropriate, I either laugh it off (if I like them as a person and want to maintain the association) OR I call them on it and make it very clear to them that I did not appreciate what they did/said and I will not put up with it.

 

Earlier this year, I had to deal with a overly and overtly flirty co-worker; I just turned a blind eye/ear to whatever he said/did. Fortunately, he got the message and stopped on his own accord.

 

In any event, like CAD and LavendarDove said earlier, I think the key is to act naturally and NOT treat male colleagues differently from female ones or treat them as if they are potential predators (Of course, I am NOT saying that YOU do this)

 

Just my two cents.

[servedcold]

From a weird experience of being in a particular workplace with many married members of the opposite sex in the mid 90s, and being hit on by over 50% of them, got to experience a compressed version of what OP is talking about.

 

Though I was really out of shape and considered myself unattractive at the time, I had made a lot of money in a single day, far from the norm, but the people I was working with probably thought I made that much regularly, the amount got embellished, and word got around the place.

 

Some of what I experienced was extremely overt, even bizarre, being asked out on dates by married women as if they were single, having them come in my office after hours and start backrubs, calls at home, letting me know that their husband was away and they were alone at home "wondering what to do" lol, being asked to come out drinking after work, then being told they had a room at the hotel if I wanted to stay. These things all happened with different women, and are just some of the more egregious examples.

 

The main common denominator was that when I didn't respond, they didn't continue the attention.

 

The biggest red flag was when they would start up conversations about their home life, seemingly innocuously.

 

It is truly easy to avoid this kind of thing, it really does take two complicit people to create an affair, it won't "just happen" to you.

[stella74]

Thanks Ren, that was sweet of you to say.

 

Earlier this year, I had to deal with a overly and overtly flirty co-worker; I just turned a blind eye/ear to whatever he said/did. Fortunately, he got the message and stopped on his own accord.

 

The main common denominator was that when I didn't respond, they didn't continue the attention.

It is truly easy to avoid this kind of thing, it really does take two complicit people to create an affair, it won't "just happen" to you.

 

I think you're both right that no matter how someone behaves towards me, if I don't respond then nothing can happen. It's a good thing to remember!

[Lowconfidence]

Though I was really out of shape and considered myself unattractive at the time, I had made a lot of money in a single day, far from the norm, but the people I was working with probably thought I made that much regularly, the amount got embellished, and word got around the place.

 

LOL. Servedcold, I can definitely see you becoming a lot more enticing to all the females if they thought you made that much everyday. That is such a funny story because it just shows you how money makes a guy so much more attractive.

[servedcold]

It took me years to figure it out. Made 16k one day, got embellished to 20k, word got out that I made that every week, which was not at all the case.

 

For years afterward, I was like, what in the hell was going on then? Never put the money rumor and the attention together. I was in the worst shape of my life, was working long hours, not in a good state of mind, and suddenly BOOM, 5 different married women and one engaged one wanting a piece of my fat ass.

 

Didn't seek out any meaningful relationships for three solid years after figuring out the truth, was so disenchanted with the whole system. Ironically, one of the single men I worked with got fired for a ridiculously blown out of proportion sexual harassment claim while this was going on. He asked a single girl in the office for her phone number. She gave it to him. He called and asked her out away from work. She declined. He asked her out a second time. She complained. He was fired the next day. It was a bank, one of the most screwed up work environments I've ever been in.