rich_1517 - this is beginning to hurt a lot

[rich_1517]

i post my name so that you can ignore the story if you choose. read earlier posts if you want background, be warned it waxes optimistic and depressed depending on the timeline and circumstances.

 

I am really sad. we met for coffee, i know i am tense and trying to cover it up, make jokes, but i see her distance again and lack of interest and its really hard. what am i doing? for that matter what is she doing?

 

shes back to hugging with no kiss, she is so removed and well not disrespectful but there is no magic here going on. we enjoy the company but we are both tense.

 

i am still smoking (her number one) but have been reluctant to agreesively try to quit with this, new job, etc going on all at once.

 

i am ready again to try something different. perhaps the only way to win her respect and interest is to walk away. its not like i havent tried. I have proposed, gave her space, didnt call, showed up in the face of being friends now seven times for many hours and been fun, outgoing, etc.

 

but this doesnt seem to be working. her reservations and resolve seem solid and its painful to watch. to be so close and no closer.

 

fact is i dont think my being available is making this work. i dont know if any amount of dates will change her heart. she doesnt look at me with much in her eyes anymore.

 

i dont like it but maybe its time to let go, maybe im wrong and if you can see it from the other side of this screen tell me. but to show up with nothing for her to chase at all seems to not be the path. there may be no path she may truly have fallen out of love.

 

if you understand the loving cup, hers may have spilled too many times in silence and just be empty.

 

i dont like the game anymore i want to talk to her openly and hoestly about needing closure or moving on together. thoughts?

[dikaia880]

I don't want to tell you to give up, but I will give my side...

I'm in the same position, our stories are different in a lot of ways...

Good relationship, long distance, she missed me too much (if there is such a thing) She has barriers, something keeps her from letting her feelings out (my opinion)

I have tried the friends thing and it was good for awhile, but it's falling back, much as yours now is...

The close then distant thing wears on me constantly...

I do not want to give up, but I think for my sake I may give it one last, this is how I feel, this is what I want, it's in your hands, but I am done, I need to move on so I can love again...

I have not decided if I will do it or not, but I hope this helped you in some odd way.

I just don't want to give up and move on, but it may be time...

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

I fear that you are not going to like this.

 

WALK AWAY.

 

This has taken too much out of you. You are trying to repair something on your own. This cannot be done. You have tried, really tried. It is not enough, when the other person is not putting in the same effort. it will also make you resentful in the long term.

 

If you cannot walk away, and I would understand, my gut feel is that you are packing too much in and obviously your expectations are way too high. They are at odds with her expectations, I suspect.

 

If you cannot walk away, do not see her as often as you are - try and see her once or twice a week max.

 

If you cannot walk away, lower your expectations for now, in the hope that she might surprise you in the future - difficult I know.

 

But really, Rich, this is very difficult. For your own sanity, perhaps you have to make the toughtest decision of all.

 

I wish you all the luck in the world.

 

G xx

 

P.S. I am not saying that I could do it Rich.

[Maverick44]

Rich,

 

I've watched your stories for quite awhile now.

 

Look, I agree with everyone else. I think you've tried YOUR best. You've done the BULK of the work here. Where has she come in?

 

Women listen to their feelings and if hers aren't there, well, unfortunately, they're not.

 

So, she may see you trying to so hard or something, etc...but are YOU happy? No, man. You're not. You're sad. It's almost sadder this way than being apart, isn't it?

 

I think you should just have a talk with her. Say something along the lines of "*I* feel there is something missing. It's not working for me right now and I don't know what it is." and that " I think it might be better if we're just friends and who knows what the future brings?"

 

Seriously, I'm sure you've mulled all these thoughts in your head. But you do feel something is missing, right? It really isn't working right now, right?

 

So end it. Be good to her. Tell her you respect both of you trying but something just isn't right. Be friends or do No Contact and move on with your life.

 

Good luck,

 

Maverick

[dikaia880]

I think that what the other posts are saying is what I tried to say, I don't think it really came accross...Who knows giving up might be what needs to be done to make you two work, but if not you will be able to move ahead., and find someone who's willing to give you the love you deserve.

[dikaia880]

I think that what the other posts are saying is what I tried to say, I don't think it really came accross...Who knows giving up might be what needs to be done to make you two work, but if not you will be able to move ahead., and find someone who's willing to give you the love you deserve.

[rich_1517]

well its funny. sometimes facing defeat gives clarity.

 

i called her and said "is everything ok?" she said she s fine.

 

i didnt probe i just asked if she felt she could tell me if she wanted to. she said of course.

 

i then said listen if the museum date is to tight we dont have to do it, its no big deal. she said no i want to get together.

 

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

 

i have come this far, and there has been no date yet, this would be the first "real" date. so i will try to chalk the distance etc, to two nervouse tigers feeling out their prey.

 

as i said reading her is tough, but i will do a couple things. date two will have to be her idea, or planned by both. i need some sign. so i will give the next two days my all, and then if nothing strategic withdrawl.

 

continue your thoughts, suggestions, ideas. remember i am not always clear when i post, i wax with the feelings. and... she is unemotional by nature.

 

fact is i could really work her over by guilt, etc and get what i want that way or abandon her and say i dont really want to talk. she is blind sided by this kind of thing. but i dont like using those tools, its not my way. but some part of it might be. IE: backbone. read "listen i still care about you but this doesnt seem to be something you want, i gotta go."

 

no deep feelings, just a calm dismissal.

[rich_1517]

well its funny. sometimes facing defeat gives clarity.

 

i called her and said "is everything ok?" she said she s fine.

 

i didnt probe i just asked if she felt she could tell me if she wanted to. she said of course.

 

i then said listen if the museum date is to tight we dont have to do it, its no big deal. she said no i want to get together.

 

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

 

i have come this far, and there has been no date yet, this would be the first "real" date. so i will try to chalk the distance etc, to two nervouse tigers feeling out their prey.

 

as i said reading her is tough, but i will do a couple things. date two will have to be her idea, or planned by both. i need some sign. so i will give the next two days my all, and then if nothing strategic withdrawl.

 

continue your thoughts, suggestions, ideas. remember i am not always clear when i post, i wax with the feelings. and... she is unemotional by nature.

 

fact is i could really work her over by guilt, etc and get what i want that way or abandon her and say i dont really want to talk. she is blind sided by this kind of thing. but i dont like using those tools, its not my way. but some part of it might be. IE: backbone. read "listen i still care about you but this doesnt seem to be something you want, i gotta go."

 

no deep feelings, just a calm dismissal.

[GeeCee]

 

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

 

Ahem ... sorry to be pedantic here, but I think that you will find that salsa was MY idea. Beec can take a lot of credit on this site, but not for that!!

 

Jokes aside, Rich, keep working through this - you will make the right decision for yourself ultimately, I think.

 

G xx

[GeeCee]

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

 

Ahem ... sorry to be pedantic here, but I think that you will find that salsa was MY idea. Beec can take a lot of credit on this site, but not for that!!

 

Jokes aside, Rich, keep working through this - you will make the right decision for yourself ultimately, I think.

 

G xx

[GeeCee]

Oops!!! Having problems posting.

 

Sorry. I actually don't like the sound of my own voice THAT MUCH!!!!

 

G xx

[Spartan1]

Rich,

 

You have to do what I done mate. It's tough. It's hard.

 

Stay calm. Walk away. Give her a farewell smile.

 

If she wants you she will come after you in the months to come. If not, then re-build yourself.

 

My decree nisi came through on the 18th March and by the 1st May I will divorced.

 

occasionaly, in the quiet hours when I lay in bed, when I feel alone and you have that feeling that you will never fall in love again, the feeling that you are unlovable. I shed a tear. But that's it. If you dwell on it for to long it screws you up. You can only afford to mourn and be weak for so long. You don't move on.

 

The hardest thing I had to do was just walk away, harder still was staying calm. I wanted to yell at the sky, I wanted to turn back time, I planned out conversations that I hope would hit that magic "yes, lets give it one more try" I loved my wife as much now as I did nine years ago when we fell in love.

 

In reality. She lost that loving feeling for whatever reason. I hate it, I am skeptical of love. I now systematically destroy the good memories and enhance the bad ones. I have to.

 

But I am stronger now. This is not about me but I hope in reading what I and others have had to do you will gain the strength that you can do the same and you are not alone.

 

Stay calm. Walk away. Dignified farewell. Maybe in the future you can meet up but for now, you got to re-build mate. You got to be strong, find new interests, go through the motions of loss.

 

But come out stronger and come out fighting for your life. Do not let her dictate your life from this day onwards.

 

You can do this Rich.

 

Stay calm. Walk away. Don't say anything you will regret. Make no promises. Re-build.

 

But only if you feel you cannot take it any more. If you can take the pain, do what you feel is right.

[neallo82288]

Rich my friend,

 

What you have here is more than likely a little panic. My friend, you must stay calm and stay focused. She is interested in you and you know that. Just she needs to remain aloof as much as you have remained aloof. It is all part of the game. Stay straight in your path and let her emotions take control again. I say that after the next two days you will see how she wants to go and then you can make your decision. After all, if you leave too early there may be no chance for a future with her. Go to the museum and to your second date and see where she is in the attention department. You seem to be relying on her every statement as if it were her true feelings. Well, my friend women tend to hold things back. They hold things back especially when they are skeptical and truly she has not had the time to see if you truly changed or are you just putting on a show for her. Just keep the path straight and narrow and see if she doesn't come aroound. If she isn't showing you what you expect her to show you and you still feel that you must move on then by all means do. But give her a chance to see that you have truly changed.

 

Neallo

[GeeCee]

Rich,

You have to do what I done mate. It's tough. It's hard.

 

Stay calm. Walk away. Give her a farewell smile.

 

If she wants you she will come after you in the months to come. If not, then re-build yourself.

 

But come out stronger and come out fighting for your life. Do not let her dictate your life from this day onwards.

 

Spartan - I felt sad reading your post. I think that it is sound advice for Rich. I hope that you are listening to yourself as well - I know that I tend to be unable to take my advice. Don't let the pain your ex caused you dictate the rest of your life.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

I have to say this. ex's dont cause pain, we choose to turn loneliness and missing them into pain. its just how it is.

 

we also choose to chase and hang on. wait let me say that first person. i have chosen to pursue and to hang on. many have told me this would turn out fine if i would just hand her her walking papers in a nice way, maybe two months ago. well thats not the choice i made.

 

i decided to give my heart pretty much inconditionally (at least to her) and i think i have made her feel pretty good.

 

games or no games, my self esteem has returned to such a point that i am willing to risk upsetting her with an ulitmatum soon. its who we were, we did not take each other this for granted in the relationship, while the words werent always great we at least said something about self preservation.

 

so i will ride the winds a little longer. the words would be something like this

 

"its time (name), i have shown up as best i can to regain your love, im tired. its been many months since you showed a real strong feeling about us. i understand i played a big part of in that and i have tried to find a way back to the us we knew.

 

i can no more make you love me, then you can turn me into a friend. i am finding that with things are they are the potential for you to take me for granted and loss of respect is significant enough that i cant ignore it.

 

there is still a chance but it will have to be both of us wanting it. and if that cant happen thats ok too, i love you enough to let you find your own way, but i will have to begin letting go.

 

I know what i want and if its not with you then i have to consider other options."

[SincerlyHurt]

Rich, I like your letter but it is too soon for an ultimatum. At the very least use her for a salsa partner and get some experience that way you can show off to your next vixen. OK, that probably did not help.

 

Go through with you alls dates and then try backing off some, maybe what she needs is time to mull over what is happening. Project a good image, don't let your anxiety escape you. Don't call her for a day or two after the dates, as Beec would say: Lay it on and then back off, hit her like waves in the ocean. I know it is hard, you probably are more lost than any of us here, it is the anticipation and what ifs that get you. Just take it day by day. Try to enjoy yourself on these dates, if you are always worried about her reactions and what she is thinking it will take away from your natural being. She wants to be with the real you, not the mind reader you are trying to be. I know it is tough when they seem distant, but you make it sound like she is worth the effort. You will never know unless you try.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

Good call dropping the museum. With anxiety between you, I would avoid talking.

 

I know you cannot totally kill the anxiety and make thing comfortable, so go place where you can avoid what creates it, if you can.

 

Quiting smoking, not easy to do, but maybe, maybe you can take anohter tactic. Hide it. Tell her you are trying. Sometimes more successful than others. Then when you are with her, double up on the patch, hide where she can't see it and fight the cravings. Let her see you as trying. Just a suggestion.

 

And salsa was GeeCee's idea.

[Beec]

OK, but no more asking. Hold out. When she wants it, act like a coquette, and back away. At least for now.

 

And let that comment of hers appear to run off you like water of a ducks butt.

[dikaia880]

Maybe it's the couple pints of guiness I just had with some friends...alcohol is not a crutch but it can help at times...

 

Now as I was saying...I don't know how to quote on here, but did she not say..."Don't, it's early yet."

Forget about the don't part (well don't ask anything like that, but I digress) Remember the "it's early yet part" while that is not a "i love you sooo much, lets get hitched"

it is a small minute indication....that while we have away to go, it's not definitely go the other direction....

If you can, hold out, try to hide your feelings from yourself (i know it's hard) and keep trying, until it's either lets get back together or "don't, I don't want to be with you.)

Am I right...take it as a positive!

[rich_1517]

now that is an interesting thought. hide them from myself, becuase its not in my best interest.

 

I know before anyone says it that was pressure, i was pretty certain that she had tried and i stopped her. but enough. i know that for anyone its difficult to get close to someone who may be nervous or overthinking, hell its impossible AND unattractive.

 

each day i get more grounded, case in point i felt comfortable enough to ask.

 

but i ceeded a lot power to her, in my head and in the world. the temptation to walk to relieve my own tension is high. i wonder what its like for her?

 

a funny side note about it. i planted the thought "we should kiss" in the most innoucous way. will be interesting to see what effect that has. yeah yeah no pressure.

 

Beec -> her morning client cancelled so she can go the gallery. hmmm. so either i tell her work just got harder or i show up even more fun, just let loose (not nervously) just show that "what question?" and move on with the date.

 

the path i see most clearly right now is hang in there, and yes "not yet" is better than "never" but i know what it is, its the smoking i am still stubborn and feel i have put so much on the table "What do you want from me" is happening so i bought nicorette. and will show i am trying. the patch would kill me if i smoke during, im addicted, but willing to try.

 

So think happy thoughts about 10:30 -12:00 PST put a real prayer in there that rich can be the man he knows he is, and perhaps today a little more. becuase if i do walk or she does i want to know i was at my best and not a wreck.

 

Cheers

[Spartan1]

Thanks GeeCee. You are right. It is harder to put into practice and I have found it hard to follow my own advice. I have had a bit of low week in truth since the decree nisi but I refuse to let it get me down - strong mind, strong body, no emotion. Doesn't work for everyone but it's the only thing I can think of that works for me.

 

Rich,

 

If you are going to hang in there mate. Strange thought it may seem, not talking about the relationship and feelings with her could be the best option.

 

Often, when we aim for a specific result (regaining the relationship), we don't obtain it by focusing on the thing we want but turning the focus completely on us. It's hard to explain. Maybe best explained as, if every time she meets you the relationship is up for discussion then she won't look past the way things used to be. Not mentioning the relationship may give you the strength you need to hang in there so she can see those improvements you made. I dunno. Maybe it might be worth considering that form of mental approach.

 

Either way. Ultimatiums rarely, if ever, work.

 

Salsa is a great idea by the way. I started learning cheroc (comes from rock and roll) and its a lot of fun when you know what you are doing (kinda interesting when you don't as well, spin the lady! oopps to much spin there!)

 

Good luck mate.

[rich_1517]

she is being ambigous, non comittal, wanting fun and passion but with someone she can absolutely take for granted. that would be me.

 

im am considering the following pretty strongly, this would come during dinner, in my oh so subtle manner:

 

"you know, (pause thoughtfull) how are you going to find any passion with someone you can take for granted? (jokingly).

 

i think we need a change of venue. the fact is im taking romance unlike the rest of my life day by day, i have no plans anymore and the mystery has reentered my life.

 

but i get the feeling that you see me as too available, wheres the romance in that? not real inspiring dont you think? (again jokingly and plaintviely, its seduction).

 

what good are my tools of seduction and positive traits if you dont have to work to get them?

 

so i have two suggestions, let go or start seeing me as a temporary kind of distraction. meaning i love to get together and its fun. it may be perhaps that you need to see, as i do, that there is a time limit on this, that a time will come when im not here anymore and the momories are what we will have left. hey they are good memories.

 

but it is very important to me that you not take me for granted, i would hate for it too become clear in the wrong way. me just choosing other options as the only way to keep my self respect.

[Beec]

Rich, I would not say that or anything like it. I would try soemthing else to make her think you cannot be taken for granted.

 

Give her what seh wants, and you seem to be this week, then withdraw. Don't call her for a few days, be busy next weekend, have another date with another woman, just go out and have fun. do something, say nothing.

[majord23]

 

"you know, (pause thoughtfull) how are you going to find any passion with someone you can take for granted? (jokingly).

 

 

but i get the feeling that you see me as too available, wheres the romance in that? not real inspiring dont you think? (again jokingly and plaintviely, its seduction).

 

what good are my tools of seduction and positive traits if you dont have to work to get them?

 

 

Rich, the above statements are not ones you should be saying to her....ironically, they are what you should be saying to yourself.

 

She sees you as too available.....she doesn't have to work to 'get' your tools of seduction and positive traits.

 

The question is: What are YOU going to do about it?

 

Telling her isn't going to fix anything, it is just going to make it harder.....no matter *how* you present it (in a joking manner or not) it isn't going to affect the essense of what you are saying.

 

If she sees you as too available, YOU are the only one that can change that. YOU have to take actions that make her appreciate you more.

 

She cannot change her perception of you, unless you change the way you present yourself

 

This is all about allowing her to see your fun side, giving her the opportunity to fall in love again with the guy she originally fell in love with. Don't analyse everything she says or does, don't confront her with it and avoid conversations about 'the relationship' like the plague.

 

Be yourself, have fun, don't appear needy....and leave the rest up to her.

[rich_1517]

well we are on the same page. the bottom line being that while the perception of me being able to be taken for granted exists, romance cannot happen.

 

im not sure just being unavailable changes that. it seems like some words need to be spoken about my change in position.

 

while i fully understand that actions and seduction, not words are the key in most situations, she can be very aloof. she does respond to my words and the idea that this wont last may be essential to turning her waking up her complacent atttitude.

 

i will think on it, i still have time. feel free to argue with me.