Was I right or wrong?

[kungfumaster]

Hi everyone,

 

SORRY, THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG.

 

I just need some opinions/feedback if you guys have time - my friends and family have gone over this already, but they are really sick of me talking about it, so I was just wondering if you guys have any advise/opinions/feedback.

 

So, just to summarize, I was in a 2 year and 3 month relationship when she broke up me 2 months ago (right before Christmas). The last contact I've had with her is a month ago online. We were living in the same city X the first 2 years, and the last 3 months was long distance. I had to move to another city Y because the only company which did not reject me (after 30+ applications everywhere) was in this city (Y). I was okay with the situation because I had promised to fly back and see her every month until I got a job back in the city X where we met, but she was, not very okay with the situation.

 

In any case, here is what I want to ask you guys about. I had just graduated from university (she's got 1 more year left) and was coming back to city X to attend my convocation and to see her. This would have been the second time I flew back to see her. Now, my parents were coming to my convocation too (from another city Z), so I was hoping she could meet them. She had already met my mom before, so this time, I was hoping she could meet my dad. But, I know that, in the past, she was always reserved about meeting any of my family members, because I know she has had bad family experiences with her own broken family, so I understood. But, with alot of effort on my part (convincing, etc), she has met two of my siblings and my mom. I was really happy because I know she was putting alot of effort into it too (because she's not use to liking any of her family members).

 

BUT, all of a sudden, the 5 days I was suppose to come down to city X to see her, she has scheduled a wisdom teeth operation on day 2 of my visit. When she first told me that, I was furious because I thought she was just wanting to avoid meeting my dad (as she had tried to avoid meeting any of my family members before). But then, she got furious too, and told me that I only think about my parents, and not her, and that my parents are more important than her. I said that is not the case. I was really serious about her, and planning to ask her to marry me the summer of 2004 - that's why I thought is was so important for her to meet my dad (because I only see my parents only once a year). She was dissapoointed in me because I did not ask whether I could be there there for her with her wisdom teeth operation. I must admit, I did forget that, and I said I was sorry. But, honestly, I was so excited about her finally meeting my dad, that I totally forgot to be sensitive to her needs and ask her whether I could be at her wisdom teeth operation. On top of that, I was still suspicious of whether she had purposefully scheduled her wisdom teeth operation on my visit (and my parents vist) just to AVOID meeting them (because basically, after her wisdom teeth operation, she was basically incapacitated - cannot talk, in pain, cannot go anywhere for about 1 week). So I asked her (I think I was fair in doing this) whether she had in fact PURPOSEFULLY scheduled her wisdom teeth operation to AVOID meeting my parents - and then she got furious and just told me to leave her alone, and then she asked me "don't I have a right to have my own time" - which I think she meant, don't I have time to recover.

 

Anyways, she avoided me after that conversation. She wouldn't answer my phone calls or emails for about 5 days. It was majorly painful, because this all happened 1 week before I was suppose to come down and visit her. I kept emailing her back to say I was sorry, and that of course, I wanted to be there for her for her wisdom teeth operation. So finally, she starts emailing me back. And then we see each other when I finally come down to city X, but it was really tough (by the way, she actually changed her cell phone number after the conversation above). We fought alot, she said I always listen to my parents, and that I don't think of her. I said that is definitely no the case. I have been living away from home for over 6 years now, and that I wish just ask me to come to her wisdom teeth operation. It was tough because my parents (over 60+) are coming down to a city which they haven't been too, and I would have to take care of them while they were down here. This coupled with the fact that my ex wanted to be with her put alot of stress on me. So anyways, in the end, she did have one dinner with my parents, and we were okay after that (I thought anyways).

 

So what do you guys think of my situation - was I totally wrong in neglecting her feelings (with the wisdom teeth operation) - but I was just so excited about her meeting my parents - I totally forgot about her wisdom teeth operation.

 

Anyways, one month later, she tells me that she can't spend very much time with me during the Christmas break because she had some relatives coming over from and had to drive them around. When I first heard that, I was really sad and dissappointed because I was sooo looking forward to seeing her and spending a whole 2 weeks with her during the Christmas break. But then I realized that I would just be happy with whatever time we could spend together - so I emailed her back and told her that - but she never emailed me back, and she never picked up any of my phone calls after that - so I got the message. She was just avoiding me. I had to actually email her to tell her it was okay if she wanted to break up with me before she actually emailed me back. It was really painful - being avoided by the person you've loved for 2 years -I still can't believe I survived that. So we broke up.

 

So what do you guys think?

[Nifty_Swifty1]

Well, if you ask me I say that your better off. You were a little harsh in asking her directly if she was just avoiding your parents. There are just some things that you have to be tactfull about.

 

I know its tuff, I've been through the same kind of thing in my resent past, but it seems like your better off. If someone is willing to make such a big deal over someting small it would be hell on earth if you were to marry that person. I know that there isn't anything I can say that will help you, but if you just want someone to complain to you can always PM me. I listen good.

 

Sorry you have to go through this kind of thing, but everyone does.

[Athena]

Hey Kung,

I'm so sorry for your breakup. I am sensing alot of miscommunication and a certain amount of lack of communication.

 

She mentioned to you a couple time, what I think what would have been the key to resolving what ever the problem was. You mention many times that she has some issue with how much time/attention you spend with your family. I would have addressed that instead of blowing if off. Whether or not you agree with what she was saying, there was obviously something real there for her and I think you should have talked about it.

 

It seems to me that if she felt back-seated to others in your life, then scheduling the medical proceedure may have been a subconscious act on her part to put you in a position of making a choice of who was more important. I don't know - I'm just speculationg.

 

One thing I do feel pretty strongly about is that she did not feel secure about who she was to you and her importance in your life. That may or not have merit in your actions - I don't know. I am a bit suspicious of the "I was going to ask her to marry me" part. Not sure what that is all about.

 

As with most situations, typically both people contribute to the success or failure of the relationship. If you love her, and still want to marry her, I would take some time to evaluate what was really going on - how did she fail you and how did you fail her. And once I had a handle on that, I'd give her a call and see if she wanted like to talk about it.

 

-A

[kungfumaster]

Hi,

 

Thanks for your input Athena and swifty - there is alot to swallow.

Here are my answers/comments to your input.

 

Athena wrote: "I am sensing alot of miscommunication and a certain amount of lack of communication. "

 

Yah - I knew there was. I don't know, I thought I tried really hard with

communication. I know I tried to ask her always how she was feeling, and I was always the one trying to talk and make conversation, and get to what she was thinking and feeling. But it would always feel like pulling teeth. Sometimes (but rarely) - she would talk, and it would be great. I know at times, when she got mad, she would just hang up. And then she would expect me to call her back - after she hung up on me - I don't know - when someone hangs up on you, I know they are really upset, but you hung up on me - why should I call you back?? I must admit, I never got hung up on before - and it really made me feel that I wasn't even a human being anymore. It happened alot. Then, she would just call me back and then we'd make up. I admit, I should have called her back sometimes after she would cool off - but its just so hard after they've done that to you. I was really in bad shape when I moved away from her. I actually hung up on her once (but only once) - I myself got really mad (this was the day after the conversation above - "did you schedule your wisdom teeth operation to avoid meeting my dad" - and she was still mad at me, and refused to talk to me and said she was tired and mad at me, so I hung up on her ). I must admit now that was a mistake. I should have calmed down and just asked her if we could talk another time when she wasn't so tired.

 

So yes, there were communication problems. And we both were responsible.

 

Athena wrote:

"She mentioned to you a couple time, what I think what would have been the key to resolving what ever the problem was. You mention many times that she has some issue with how much time/attention you spend with your family. I would have addressed that instead of blowing if off. Whether or not you agree with what she was saying, there was obviously something real there for her and I think you should have talked about it. "

 

Athena continues to write:

"It seems to me that if she felt back-seated to others in your life, then scheduling the medical proceedure may have been a subconscious act on her part to put you in a position of making a choice of who was more important. I don't know - I'm just speculationg. "

 

So, yes. We did talk about this. She did feel a back-seat whenever any of my family members came to visit me in city X (where we met). But that was rare - out of the 2 years we were together in city X, my siblings came 3 or 4 times (for just 2-3 days), and some cousins came 3-4 times (these were only maximum of 2 days). So in total, there would be a maximum of 20 days out of a whole 2 years I would spend with my relatives. I must admit, when my relatives came, I wanted to see them - because - hey, they're family - I like my family, and I don't have any

in city X- so when they came, it was like nostalgia - I wanted to hang out with them - catch up with them - talk about the old days, etc. But my ex- would always feel like I was neglecting her - but I always asked her to come out with us when my family members came - but she didn't want that - she said I would always think about them more than her. But the thing is, if her relatives came, I would totally understand she would want to spend some time with them, and if she asked me to hang out with them too, I would have loved that - because yah - I do want to meet her family and get to know them, because, yes, I am serious about this girl. But she would always feel like I would neglect her when my relatives came. I don't know.

 

 

Athena wrote:

"One thing I do feel pretty strongly about is that she did not feel secure about who she was to you and her importance in your life. That may or not have merit in your actions - I don't know."

 

Okay. I think you are right here. She did not feel secure about

her importance to me in my life. But I tried so hard to make her

feel important in my life. When we were together, I thought I had

always payed close attention to her needs. I always said that I loved

her. I still do. It just never seemed enough though. I would do

all kinds of things- plan little get togethers, give her flowers, write

love letters to her, etc. But it would never be enough. I think this

is where she had issues. See, her father is the worst father in the

world in my mind. The father was never there for her. In fact, her

father sometimes even avoided her. This really hurt her,

I was there with her when she cried for 2 straight days after her

father basically gave her the run around when she tried to phone. So, because of the lack of love from the father, I would basically have to carry on the load of her unmet need from her father - i.e., I would need to give twice as more as any normal guy should give. I don't know. I would always feel tired I remember each and every day I was with her. It was emotionally draining.

 

Athena wrote:

" I am a bit suspicious of the "I was going to ask her to marry me" part. Not sure what that is all about. "

 

Basically, I decided if we were to last one year apart in different cities, then I would know that she was the one for me, i.e., I would marry her. I was with her for 2 years, I know her very well (even though the communication was bad) - I know her issues, I know her good points, basically, I love her - I love her beauty, her strength, her spirit, her intellect, her frailties, her quirks, everthing. I knew her, and I loved her. Yes, she was cold sometimes, but only to protect herself - but once you get to know her, and her guard is down, she is the most loving person you'll ever meet. And yes, we had problems, but we had lasted 2 years, and I knew (well, I thought I knew anyways) that I could weather any storm that came to us. And I wanted to work at "us", as long as she wanted to work at "us" too, but she no longer does want to work

at "us" anymore. I think she got tired, and I got tired too. I don't

know.

 

Athena wrote:

"As with most situations, typically both people contribute to the success or failure of the relationship. If you love her, and still want to marry her, I would take some time to evaluate what was really going on - how did she fail you and how did you fail her. And once I had a handle on that, I'd give her a call and see if she wanted like to talk about it. "

 

I agree. I think we both contributed to the failure of our relationship. I still love her, but judging from her actions before the breakup - i.e., not returning email messages, not picking up the phone, etc, and not showing at a meeting online at an agreed specified time when we were suppose to talk about our relationship again (this was one month ago - the last contact - or no contact I've had with her), I'd say she had pretty much cut me loose - so I cannot do anything. She has not tried to phone me or email me - she knows where I am and how to reach me. I haven't changed my phone or email (all I've done is blocked her from my msn messenger, because it just give me bad memories of when she broke my heart again by not showing up at an agreed time to talk).

 

So there you have it. Everyone, including you swifty has been telling me I'm better off. My head says yes, but my heart is totally opposite. Its just so hard.

 

Sorry I've talked so much - I just need to talk about this because everyone is sick of me talking about it, but it just drives me nuts - I just have to let it out.

 

Anyone who had more comments - I would love them if you have time.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Athena]

Hey Kung,

First of all let me say that you are quite articulate and seem to be very cognoscent of the relationship dynamics, both yours and hers. Boy, I wonder if she realizes what she is giving up...

 

Anyway, my suspicion is that she is someone who has a very difficult time trusting others. The thing about people like that is once you can prove to them that you are there for them for the duration - they are the most loyal people in the world. The trick to them is breaking through the fortress of personl protection that they have constructed around themselves. What queued me into my conclusion was what you said about her dad.

 

At this point however, she is probably at the place where she feared the most and which probably contributed to all her insecurities which is that you would eventually leave her.

 

I think the wind up is, what is it that you want from here? She's got some work to do on her insecurity issues. You can't spend married life hanging up on each other. Is she capable of moving beyond her trust issues, are you willing to be supportive of her while she does that?

 

Oh, one other thing. I would be careful not to misinterpret her "avoidance" of you. If you read posts on this forum you will see that the course of action for getting over not being with the person you are COMPLETELY IN LOVE WITH, is to avoid them. It's possible she hates you I suppose, but I would suspect that she loves you more than she can manage.

 

-A

[kungfumaster]

Hi again,

 

Thanks again Athena for your input. Here again is my response to your comments. I don't know - I think its that time of the year - valentines day. I am feeling more depressed and I need to talk about this more because I remember when we were together, we were planning to have a great valentines day - I was planning to visit her again in city X this weekend - but now, its all gone down the tubes. So at this very moment, I am, constantly thinking about her, constantly trying to figure out what went wrong, if I am doing the right thing by moving on, if I am going to regret this the rest of my life. I don't know. I wish I could just receive some sign, some inspiration, something to point me in the right direction.

 

So, here are my responses:

 

Athena writes:

 

"Hey Kung,

First of all let me say that you are quite articulate and seem to be very cognoscent of the relationship dynamics, both yours and hers. Boy, I wonder if she realizes what she is giving up... "

 

Thanks for the compliment. Thanks also for your input.

 

Athena writes:

"Anyway, my suspicion is that she is someone who has a very difficult time trusting others. The thing about people like that is once you can prove to them that you are there for them for the duration - they are the most loyal people in the world. The trick to them is breaking through the fortress of personl protection that they have constructed around themselves. What queued me into my conclusion was what you said about her dad. "

 

Okay. I tried really hard to break that fortress of protection. I don't know how much more I can try. I am afraid I might just go crazy trying to break that fortress. I thought I got through it already, and you're right, she is capable of lots of love - I've seen it, I've felt it, and it was wonderful. I though I broke through already. But I guess when I left for my job in another city, maybe she started to build it up again. But I hadn't left her - I loved her - I wanted to be with her - I called her every night. Okay, in the first month, I was busy alot trying to settle myself into the new city Y, and trying to start of in the right foot in my new job - but I still expressed to her that I loved her very much still (at least I thought I did), and that I wanted to come see her every month (she was busy too with school - so we agreed once per month would be good). But I don't know, somehow, that wall got built up again. I don't know what happened.

 

Athena writes:

"At this point however, she is probably at the place where she feared the most and which probably contributed to all her insecurities which is that you would eventually leave her."

 

But I don't understand - she left me - I didn't leave her - what do you mean I left her. I don't know, wasn't she the one who wouldn't return my calls or emails? I mean if she phoned me or email me right now, that would tell me she wanted to try again. But she hasn't. I think I have already expressed that fact that I want to be with her still - by agreeing to talk again about our relationship online - but she never showed? Am I suppose to give her another call or email again to ask her is she wanted to talk somemore? If she agrees, how do I know she will not do the same thing to me again by not showing up online? I think the ball is in her court. I mean, to be honest, when she didn't show up online that time, I basically told myself I couldn't handle this anymore - I was feeling alot of pain - just being patient with her - wanting something - anything - any indication that she still wanted to be with me - but I got absolutely nothing - no I love you's, no "can I please have some time to think about this", no "please , I am in a really confused period right now, and I need to get myself together before I can decide on us" - absolutely nothing like that - so what am I suppose to think? Should I try to contact her again, or will I basically be shooting myself in the foot for doing so - and setting myself up for another knife in the heart? What am I suppose to do?

 

Athena writes:

"I think the wind up is, what is it that you want from here? She's got some work to do on her insecurity issues. You can't spend married life hanging up on each other. Is she capable of moving beyond her trust issues, are you willing to be supportive of her while she does that? "

 

Okay, these are good questions. Wow - you're right. I think I need to think more about these questions. I guess answering these questions would ultimately help me decide whether to move on 100% or maybe give her another try - but how do I know she even wants to give me a try - how do I know she's not already dating someone else and have already moved on? Oh man.

 

Athena writes:

"Oh, one other thing. I would be careful not to misinterpret her "avoidance" of you. If you read posts on this forum you will see that the course of action for getting over not being with the person you are COMPLETELY IN LOVE WITH, is to avoid them. It's possible she hates you I suppose, but I would suspect that she loves you more than she can manage."

 

This is a really good point. I actually did think of this in fact. I think maybe she just needs me to just buzz off for a while - I mean, she's alreadly got a full load this year - she's graduating from university, she wants to find a job, she wants to help her mom out with the money (because the dad never helps out) - she's got alot on her mind, and I don't think she has even time to love me I guess. I actually think this - but I have never heard her tell me this though. I just know maybe this is what's going on. I just wish she would tell me this instead of me always trying to read her mind - I always felt like I was acting on instinct - I always was guessing what was in her mind. Maybe, as you say Athena - she loves me alot - but basically cannot manage her time well enough to show me any love. I don't know - I think I don't need much - just some emails to tell me about her day, how she was feeling - what she was doing - it wouldn't even have to be every day - maybe two times a week or something - but nearing the end - there was absolutely nothing - can I love someone who cannot love me back? Can I give more than I can take - no I think. I don't know. I'm not built that way I guess. I need 50/50 - or at least 60/40 (60 from me of course). But I was feeling at the end, more like 95/5 - and my tank was got really low. So, what am I suppose to do?

 

I guess right now, I am healing - getting my own tank up to full again - at least trying to. I don't know. I hope once I get my tank full again, I guess I have to still think whether I want to try again - but I don't have a clue what's happening on the other side. I don't have a clue.

 

Ahhh - sorry guys - still have alot on my mind. I hope tomorrow goes by really quickly. Thanks again Athena for all you input - your questions to me, I have to think about.

 

Have a good night all of you, and may your angel keep you safe.

[Athena]

Hey Kung,

Hope you are doing ok.

 

Ok, here's my take on it. Now, keep in mind, I don't know her, and I am only speculating on her personality type from what you have told us. But I think I'm on the right page.

 

Consider this.... you say, "but she left me.." hummm... I don't think there is any coincidence that trouble started when you moved away from her to city Y. You told her you loved her but moved away from her. Mixed messages all over that one and we all know that actions speak much louder than words. Now, if you consider that she is to begin with, insecure about the relationhsip, that fact that you moved away without offering any commitment of what will be of your relationship from there on, probably was a bit too much for her.

 

I would speculate that if you offered her an engagement before you moved and you worked out plans very specifically on when you would be together, she would have felt much more secure. If you want her back and aren't sure why she "left" toss this theory to her and see what her reaction is.

 

-A

[kungfumaster]

Hi Athena,

 

Thank you once again for your input. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it, seeing it from a different view, instead of always seeing it from my view. I know everyone of my family and friends have given me their views, but they got sick of it in the end with me constantly trying to talk about it.

 

Yes, I think you are right in questioning the fact whether she had left me or I had left her. Okay, it was the toughest decision I had to ever make for myself in my life so far - moving to city Y for the job and leaving the person I loved the most in my life. And I must admit, one of the reasons why I moved was because I myself was insecure about the future of our relationship - by this I mean whether we were strong enough and ready for marriage. Wow, you caught me - there you go. I must admit, I did have insecurities about our relationship. The reasons why I had those insecurities and why I, in the end, decided to move to city Y is the following (sorry, this is going to be long):

 

1. She is 22, I am 28. She is still relatively young don't you think? I never really got the feeling from her that "I was the one" for her. In all the cards and letters I got from her, her most intimate and significant message to me was "I am so happy I met you. If it weren't for you, my time here at would not have been special". I don't know - I just did not get that feeling. I mean, I know I was very important to her, but I didn't get that feeling that "I was the one" for her, and the rest of her life. I always got the feeling like I was more of a support for her during her time of need, during the times whe she was dealing with her issues with her dad - and I felt like I was there for her as more of a father figure, or even a brother, or a positive male model for her. I did not feel like I was an equal partner, a friend, or a lover. I mean, we did all those things that had made us look like equal partner, friends and lovers, but I did not feel from her, that I was these things. I always indicated to her that I was considering her to be the one for me - the last one - the only one. I think she knew it too.

 

So, this one reason why I decided to move to city Y - to give her sometime to maybe think for herself, if I am the one for her, if she really thinks I am the one for her forever.

 

2. I believe alot of her unmet needs from her father would be projected onto me. I was thinking to myself whether I could handle this for the rest of my life, or maybe she just needed some time to heal herself from this. Because alot of her unmet needs, I would have to make up for. So, I thought, maybe if I was away, she would be "forced to try to heal herself" - and I think that would be a good thing for "us" in the future, because then, I would know she loves me because of who I AM, not just someone satisfying all her unmet needs coming from her family of origin. I wanted her to love me for who I was, not as someone who fills some unmet need of hers.

 

3. I had did not have a career yet. If I did not have any money to support us in the future, how can I even think about being secure about the future of our relationship if I wasn't even secure in myself. I know she said she doesn't care about that, but I do care for myself that I have a good job and career, and be a good provider.

 

4. Similar as in point 1, she is 22 and I'm 28. She still has alot of growing to do - she has to finish school, she doesn't know what she wants to do yet after she graduates, etc. i.e., she still has to form her own identity. So, I did not want to be a thorn in her side as she does this - I said I would try to be there for her anytime she needed me - like if she wanted any advise on careers, or about life, etc, or if she needed someone to talk to, etc, I wanted to be there for her as much as I can. Basically, I did not want to be the one holding her back from anything, and yes - this includes if she found someone else that she liked - which although would be devastating to me (I hope this is actually not the case why she decided to leave me) - but would be better than if we were married for 3 years, and then she tells me she wants to "explore", and try out different things, and would have to get out of the marriage to do that. I just don't want that to happen. I know we can't control anything in our future, but I thought that if I was in city Y, and she was in city X, she would have that chance to do all the "exploring" and "finding herself" time that she needs, before I actually decide to ask her to marry me.

 

So, all those reasons above was the reason why in the end, I decided to move to city Y and not propose to her before I left. So, what happened after I moved?

 

The first month, it was going great - we were talking to each other everyday, and we even bought one of those webcams - and we could see each other. She was busy with her school - I was busy with my stuff, but we were still going great - she emailed me about her day, I emailed her back about my day - it was just as normal, except we just weren't physically together. Then, I came to visit her in city X for 5 days during a long weekend in October (Sept I left), and it was great - it was like old times - we were still deeply in love. And I think that was it for me. It was that time in October when I saw her, I had decided for myself - this is the one for me. I love her, I want to be with her. She challenges me, she is beautiful, she is smart, she is strong - the heck with all those insecurities I had about our relationship - although she has underlying baggage and issues with her family of origin (her issues with abandonment and trust with her father), I love this woman, and I want to be with her. Yes, I am taking a chance if I decide to spend the rest of my life with this woman, but who isn't when they're making this decision. Life is so unpredictable. So that time when I had to leave her in October, it was harder for me than when I left her the first time when I moved to city Y.

 

The first part of the second month was okay - but the second part, that's when it all starting falling apart. As you know, this is when I would come down to visit her for the second time during my convocation, and when my parents would come down too (please read first post).

 

Okay Athena, you're right - I think if I did propose to her before I left, she would have felt more secure about our relationship even is she said no, and I wouldn't be in the place where I am now. But, at the same time, I wasn't really sure myself. From the day when I first came to visit her in October, until just before I came to visit her the second time in November, I REALLY THOUGHT she was the one for me - the only one. But as you know what happened after that. And right now, since then, I am having more insecurities now more than ever because of what happened.

 

Arrgggggggggggggggghhhh! Thanks for letting me unwind guys and thanks Athena for making me think - your questions are really good for me because they help me see the heart of my past relationship, and what I really think and what happened. It helps for me to solidify these thoughts to move on (or decide maybe if there is a chance our relationship could survive another try - or be worth it for another try).

 

Bless all of you. Remember - you're all worth it.