Figuring what to do next...

[Dark Prince]

So, I've made small talk with a cute dark hair girl in my criminal justice class today. I really want to become friends with her and hopefully more eventually. Every time I start something small though during the semester it ends up snowballing and going no where.

 

I'm curious to wonder. I don't know where to go from here. I don't want to keep the small talk to just the classroom. I want to get towards either friendship or something more eventually. But I can never seem to get to that point.

 

So, where do you go to get away from the small talk?

[MetallicAguy]

If I were you, I'd start up school talk for a bit, if you can hold it for like a minute or two that's ideal, then just randomly say "so, what do you like to do?", maybe throw in a bit of a smile if you'd like. That should take it away from the dullness of school and should get her talking about herself. If you "get anywhere" from here, you should keep talking to her over the course of a week and build up some trust and rapport. After your talking to her for a bit at some point, after you've built up a fair amount of trust/rapport of course, ask her if she'd like to hang out sometime when she's free. This has worked for me before.

 

Hope that helps.

[Dating Coach]

So, I've made small talk with a cute dark hair girl in my criminal justice class today. I really want to become friends with her and hopefully more eventually.

 

Well there's a problem right there. You "hopefully" want to be more than friends with her... which I take as a romantic relationship. But you want to try to come in as "friends" first. Why? How is that fair to the reality of the situation?

 

Every time I start something small though during the semester it ends up snowballing and going no where.

 

What are some examples of each tme you "start something small"?

 

I'm curious to wonder. I don't know where to go from here. I don't want to keep the small talk to just the classroom. I want to get towards either friendship or something more eventually. But I can never seem to get to that point.

 

So, where do you go to get away from the small talk?

 

I think you know where you need to go, but you aren't comfortable going there. You seem all about the "small moves" and afraid to make a real one. That's why you are stuck where you are.

[Dark Prince]

Well there's a problem right there. You "hopefully" want to be more than friends with her... which I take as a romantic relationship. But you want to try to come in as "friends" first. Why? How is that fair to the reality of the situation?

 

I only say this because that's how I figured things should go first. I'm interested in her and want something more out of it. I think I just like to confuse myself about the situation. I guess this is why I never know what I'm supposed to in this kind of situation.

 

 

What are some examples of each time you "start something small"?

 

I think what I mean is...I always end up keeping the conversation in general and never adding anything "special" to it. Meaning I would never broaden the conversation into say adding in flirting here and there.

 

I think you know where you need to go, but you aren't comfortable going there. You seem all about the "small moves" and afraid to make a real one. That's why you are stuck where you are.

 

Maybe this is why I'm always stuck with never getting anywhere. I had a good mind set yesterday and I wasn't too worried about it. I guess now that I've put some thought into it that I don't want to end up with nothing again, I'll do the same thing I've done in the past once again end up with nothing.

[Dating Coach]

I only say this because that's how I figured things should go first. I'm interested in her and want something more out of it. I think I just like to confuse myself about the situation. I guess this is why I never know what I'm supposed to in this kind of situation.

 

You should read the link in my signature. I think it will hold a lot of answers for you.

 

If you are interested in something more than "just friends" with someone, you pursue that path from the start. You don't begin under false pretenses as if you aren't interested, because that's a lie. It sends confusing signals to her and it also makes you look less confident because you are keeping your intentions secret and/or are not making a real move to go after what it is you really want. In reality you're just shuffling your feet hoping she will take over and make the move herself.

 

I think what I mean is...I always end up keeping the conversation in general and never adding anything "special" to it. Meaning I would never broaden the conversation into say adding in flirting here and there.

 

Just "general" conversation is what friends do. If you are interested in building romantic chemistry you cannot talk to her like a friend. You need to get this on the right path by flirting with her, teasing her, asking her out on a date, etc.

 

You cannot fear being rejected so much that you ruin your chances anyway by shuffling your feet all day long. You need to do what is best for your intentions, and if you are interested in her then your intentions are to begin dating her. thereforee that is exactly what you should pursue right away.

 

Maybe this is why I'm always stuck with never getting anywhere. I had a good mind set yesterday and I wasn't too worried about it. I guess now that I've put some thought into it that I don't want to end up with nothing again, I'll do the same thing I've done in the past once again end up with nothing.

 

Yes, you're always stuck getting nowhere because you never make a real move. You may smile at her. You may say a few words to her. You might even hang out as "pals", but you never straight up go for it. When you make an OVERT MOVE you basically make your intentions clear and it opens up the communication to get her answer right back. Even if she doesn't say her answer in words, her actions will tell you the truth of how she feels.

 

I think what you have been doing is probably the same stuff I used to when I was younger... and that's make tiny little steps with her that are so small they disguise my interest and intentions with her. I may have opened dialogue but it wasn't dialogue that was getting me anywhere. I instead did TINY little things hoping that her interest in me would simply reveal itself without question and without me making a real move. I didn't want to open myself up without KNOWING I will get a positive response. That is bad bad bad bad bad. It's not only confusing for her and yourself, it's not only wasting your time-because God knows how much time you spend doing this, but it also sends out unattractive signals that could have ruined your chances with her if you had only made a more confident move.

 

Think about the guys you know of who always seem to have a new girlfriend. Do you think they shuffle their feet and beat around the bush? No. They are direct and to the point.

[Dark Prince]

So, are you basically saying that the next time I see her I should make my move immediately with the flirting and the teasing and just cut out the "small talk"?

 

I really don't want any of this shuffling feet as you put it to ruin any chance. I am actually interested in her and from reading your link, which was a very interesting read, I can formulate a way to be direct about it.

 

I know I don't want to be the last one out of the gate and I want to show that I have the interest in her.

[Dating Coach]

So, are you basically saying that the next time I see her I should make my move immediately with the flirting and the teasing and just cut out the "small talk"?

 

I really don't want any of this shuffling feet as you put it to ruin any chance. I am actually interested in her and from reading your link, which was a very interesting read, I can formulate a way to be direct about it.

 

I know I don't want to be the last one out of the gate and I want to show that I have the interest in her.

 

The point is, she already has decided whether or not she would even consider dating you. The more time you waste under false pretenses the more time you waste since she has already decided. You need to find out what that answer is right away and you need to do it in a way that doesn't cause drama.

 

Confessing feelings or having a "talk" about it is NOT good and creates drama because there is suddenly so much pressure. You shouldn't have to draw attention and drama to a situation like this to get an answer. You can do it in a more flowing manner that keeps the chemistry alive by flirting with her, teasing her, laughing with her, initiating kino with her (touching-not necessarily sexual, just contact), and ultimately asking her for her phone number, asking her out on a date, and/or making a move by trying to kiss her.

 

You WILL get your answer this way, and if you find out that she isn't interested then you haven't created a bunch of drama by confessing you're in love or anything overly dramatic like that. You are now still free to say, "Yeah, it's cool. Maybe I will see you around" and that's that. It will now be a lot easier to resume normal activities around her than if she heard you confess you have feelings.

 

Good luck!

[Rickster]

Actually DatingCoach, I rather be straight forward than teasing her, flirting with her etc. Because all this is again beating around the bush, isn't it? Although I'm shy in confrontations, I would rather confess my feelings than flirt with someone etc.

 

DatingCoach, don't you feel that you would have to "shuffle" your feet for a while to get to know the person before you really understand that this person is the person you really want?

 

Lost.

 

EDIT:

I did read your link. After reading it, I realised I lost a hell lot of confidence. I remember that when I met my ex I had tons of confidence brimming in me. I wasn't afraid to express myself, not entirely in a way that I was flirting with her, but the way I enjoyed doing things and making my words loud and clear. Maybe due to me being much younger at that time and more care-free. After that breakup I lost all that confidence; made me a boring person so to speak. Good post anyways.

[Dating Coach]

Actually DatingCoach, I rather be straight forward than teasing her, flirting with her etc. Because all this is again beating around the bush, isn't it? Although I'm shy in confrontations, I would rather confess my feelings than flirt with someone etc.

 

DatingCoach, don't you feel that you would have to "shuffle" your feet for a while to get to know the person before you really understand that this person is the person you really want?

 

Lost.

 

No, it's not beating around the bush. Why? Because you are actively working to build chemistry between you. Having fun with someone by flirting with them, teasing them, etc is going to accomplish far more for building that romantic chemistry than sitting around discussing the weather, your class, what you did that weekend, etc. That's the point. And notice I didn't say, "Flirt and just flirt", I specifically said that when he can feel the chemistry that it's time to build to kino, asking her for a phone number, a date, and ultimately moving in for a kiss.

 

As far as "shuffling your feet" in friendzone to make sure you know that this is a person you want is NOT the way to figure this out. That's the whole point of dating. You go out a few times to see if it makes sense. Doing so is acknowledging openly a mutual interest in seeing if something is there between you. Moving in as a "friend" with the secret crush is hiding true intentions. Besides, the OP clearly already knows he wants to explore something romantic which is beyond platonic friendship.

[Dark Prince]

So, I believe I understand what you mean here and I should be fine when I see her again.

 

However, the one thing I'm confused about is what to talk about. I don't want to continue the general talk...but I want to get the conversation into something where I can get in on the teasing an such so that I can see where the opportunity will come up so that its not awkward when I ask her for her number. Just something I want to be sure of.

[Rickster]

Sorry Darkprince for bombarding your thread, but I thought DatingCoach might benefit the both of us with his replies.

 

Maybe from where I come from, without knowing the person well I, or other people just won't ask people out on a date. I'm not sure, but maybe it's just that I rather get to know the person well off from the start with a bunch of friends; know her mutually than to start anything off. I think that if my feelings and emotions can last for a long time, then I know that's the person for me and then I'll make the move. Otherwise I could just be in for another crush and not exactly the person I really want.

 

Maybe what we are both arguing about is the whole idea of dating. I wouldn't date a person until I can say that I'm with them.

[Dating Coach]

I guess what we need to figure out is what your idea of "Dating" is. For me, Dating is not an exclusive relationship. It's two people acknowledging a mutual attraction who then spend time together developing that attraction to see if it could grow to a relationship. This, in all my experiences, is by far the best route to go. Sure, it can work other ways, but this is the way that is tried and proven as the best way in so many areas, including how much time you spend, how best to develop the attraction without ruining your chances, how to appear more confident, how to send less confusing signals, etc.

 

There are so many things that are wrong with going the "I'm only interested in friends" route when you really want more. Because unless you are specifically telling a girl from the moment you think, "I might just like her" (in not so many words) that you intend to be pals first and if it works out that you'd like a relationship, then you're not really being honest. How many times in the past have you met a girl that you thought just might be intriguing for a potential relationship and you said to her, "I think I like you but before we go that route I think we should become pals first to see if I do really like you"? Almost certainly none. I've come accross only 1 or 2 guys in all the years I have been on the dating scene who's taken this route... and it's still very silly, but we won't go into it at this point. No, the most common way a guy goes about this is that he just moves in as friends without her knowing that he wants her as a girlfriend. He'll chat it up with her, he'll hang out with her, he'll do favors, be extra kind, etc and develop a close bond... but she doesn't find out from him that he really is developing romantic feelings for her until much later. It's dishonest. There are so many things wrong with this approach but the #1 thing is that it is dishonest. Other things are involved with this as well such as spending a lot of time "figuring out if she's right for you" (which could take a lot of time) during which she may have decided from Day 1 that she is not interested in anything more than platonic friendship... so yo just spend all that time trying to figure out someone who was never interested to begin with. Finding out mutual interest from the start is key.

 

Dating is acknowledging a mutual interest. You don't even have to say, "Hey, I think I like you and so why don't we go out a few times to see if there really is something there" because that would be a little awkward. Most of this just goes without saying. You flirt with a girl, get along well, loads of chemistry between you, so you ask her for her phone number. If she gives it to you then there is a positive sign that she is also intrigued by you. So you call her up, ask her if she'd like to accompany you (enter a place for a date) and then you go out. During the outing you talk, flirt, tease, enjoy each others company, and ultimately either find out there really is chemistry for more (could take numerous dates or just one) or if one or both parties just don't feel it in which you stop and that's that. It's all very open an honest.

 

Let's be honest while we are at it too. Most people in this world you will not be compatible with. Even the ones you find physically attractive. You may find something about her personality that just doesn't work for you... or maybe you do find you like her but she finds something in you that she doesn't like. Most people aren't going to be "the one" for you. Thus, your best bet in finding the right partner is to use your time wisely to meet as many potentials as possible. Spending a month, a semester, a year, etc moving in as the pal of one girl who may or may not be interested in you before you finally make a move is just a poor use of time, not to mention you probably past the best opportunities to build the attraction on a romantic level. Maybe she was never interested in you and maybe you wasted too much time trying to make sure she was the perfect girl for you before making a move to find out... only to find out that she isn't interested anyway. During that time perhaps a girl who IS right for you was totally missed because you were too wrapped up in trying to get comfortable around the other one. Who knows.

 

Most people decide pretty quickly on whether or not they would go out on a date with someone (and thus by that action acknowledging a possible interest) and as such it is best for both parties involved to be honest up front, make a move to spend time together on honest pretenses, go out, have fun together, and see if there is more RIGHT AWAY. I've had numerous dates that only lasted once or twice. But then we realized it wasn't for us and we just moved on. We got our answer. I remember being a teen and doing the "friend route" and I remember spending months upon months before making a move only to be rejected... and it hurt SO MUCH WORSE because I had grown so attached. Dating prevented all of that.

 

The problem I had back then is the same problem most guys have. They fear the unknown and they fear rejection. They fear opening up to a girl and letting them know that they are interested in her... so for them it seems so much more appealing to move in under the disguise of "friends" and try to sneak and see if she is interested back. In essense they (I) did this to try and insure success before trying for it. But not only was it (platonic friendship) all a lie, it was a cover for me weakness, my fear. I wasn't addressing and overcoming my unrealistic fear, I was giving in to it by going this route. Plus, I sent all kinds of unattractive signals involuntarily to those girls as well. If I was so unconfident and fearful of rejection, those signals eventually became apparent to her in other ways. I ended up sending signals that told her exactly who I was, a guy who lacked the confidence to move openly, a guy who tried to impress them by being a people pleaser, a guy who was WAY too serious (towards the end) about a serious romantic relationship coming right out of the "friendship", etc.

Besides, that's a lot of pressure to put on your "friend". What if she only thought of you as that "friend" and suddenly you were confessing your love for her? That's a BIG burden to suddenly throw on someone who hadn't looked at you in that romantic light. Here she is with her "friend" and suddenly now she's in a situation where she has to come to terms with and respond by equal adoration? How romantic is that really for her? "Oh we're just friends" to him confessing and now she's supposed to go, "I am totally with you on this crush!". It's just not realistic. She's going to be overwhelmed and she will run. They ALWAYS ran.

 

We can go on this topic more but I think my point is made.

[Rickster]

DatingCoach,

From what I read, you sound like you are trying to make dating/relationships and efficient process; wasting no time in finding out your perfect soul mate. I'm going to be frank with you that even being and always trying to be an efficient guy, there are just some things in life that cannot be thought in this light. I'm the type that does not just get carried away by the physical appearance of someone, there has to be more than that, otherwise I'm living in a fantasy. Her attitude and personality plays a big role in determining whether I am compatible with someone (or get along with her). thereforee, I am willing to wait it out, to fully understand her personality and whether it is compatible with mine than to enter a date with some random person only on the basis that I thought they look good. I can only start developing feelings for a person that I meet quite consistently (because of school or otherwise) and is compatible.

 

Let us not forget, in your guide to successful dating for men, if you are desperate in entering a relationship, it is not for you. Talking about time, and using it efficiently in order to proceed to the next person so that the final outcome is that you meet and date more people and consequently fall in love with someone (because the probability/chances are higher by meeting more people), isn't that a sign of desperation?

 

 

 

 

Then again, wouldn't it hurt more if you were accepted but consequently was dumped because you didn't get to find out in-depth their personality and hence you were incompatible? I rather some thing long term than just a fling after the 'dating' phase. With all this flirting and etc during you dates, yes it may be attractive at that point, but will all this be done when you guys are together? And for how long after that point? I see it as, getting to know a person not during a special occasion and for a long period of time will reveal their true colours.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more, but only if you can't control yourself.

 

What I'm trying to say is, there is no 'one approach suits all' as what you propose. I couldn't possibly write a theory on which would be the best method. It is situational, and thereforee, subjective. I'm sure I do not have as much experience as you do, but I'm pretty sure there is no one best way to go around doing things.

 

I sincerely hope you do not see this as an argument against you.

[Dating Coach]

Glad to hear back from you.

 

DatingCoach,

From what I read, you sound like you are trying to make dating/relationships and efficient process; wasting no time in finding out your perfect soul mate. I'm going to be frank with you that even being and always trying to be an efficient guy, there are just some things in life that cannot be thought in this light.

 

Let's go through a few things.

 

A) I do not believe in soul mates. There is more than one person in this world you can live happily with, far more. Not only live happily with, but find true love with. I do not buy into the fantasy romance idea that out there is one person you are destined to be with. I do not think this is reality.

I'd prefer not to go into that any more, as we could go on all day and start debating numbers, but if we must, we must.

 

B) There are always more efficient ways to do things. it would be unwise to ignore ways to make your life easier and more efficient when the chance to do so is right there and all it takes to grasp it is a mind open to reason and logic. And yes, reason and logic is the core of romance. We so often forget it because of the fantasy romances we see in movies, sitcoms, novels, etc.

 

I am sure that this point of mine will be misconstrued by many. I am not suggesting everything about love and romance is a well thought out plan or that you can reason everything. I am merely talking about efficiency, self confidence, competence in the Dating Scene, etc. But again, this point-as the one above-will only divert us from the topic at hand and at this time I would hope we can avoid being distracted and not go any further into it.

 

I'm the type that does not just get carried away by the physical appearance of someone, there has to be more than that, otherwise I'm living in a fantasy. Her attitude and personality plays a big role in determining whether I am compatible with someone (or get along with her).

 

Right on! I agree 100%.

 

thereforee, I am willing to wait it out, to fully understand her personality and whether it is compatible with mine than to enter a date with some random person only on the basis that I thought they look good. I can only start developing feelings for a person that I meet quite consistently (because of school or otherwise) and is compatible.

 

There are a few things I want to address here:

 

One, ultimately going out on a date with someone you recently met a few times isn't just based upon looks. Your first impression of someone you've met a few times and conversed with is more than just what they look like. The way they talk, what they talk about, how often they smile, how friendly they are, their body language, and so much more have already been sending you signals and you've been interpreting them subconsciously. These are clues into who they are, so you've learned more than just their looks. Thus accepting or asking for a date within a few meetings is far more than thinking, "she looks pretty, we should go out"... although I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. The whole point of dating is as I mentioned numerous times... to get to know the person being open and honest about a potential attraction and mutually spending time together exploring that attraction.

 

Two, if you will ONLY openly acknowledge an interest in someone after you've come to "fully understand them", then-as I said before-you're taking WAY too many risks. Far more than if you would dating. Let's go over those risks:

A) How long does it take to "fully understand" someone? My experience has been months and months, perhaps at least a year. I dated my fiancee' for a full year spending on average about 4 days a week with her and I don't think I could say that I truly knew who she was as a person until around that time.

 

B) The vast majority of people out there don't want to follow this pattern of "understanding one another" before becoming an item. That's quite a whole lot to ask someone.

 

"Look, we need to fully understand each other before we decide whether or not we can be an item. That could take a year"

 

"You expect me to wait a year for you to decide whether or not you'll give us a chance?"

 

Okay, so I know that this is not what you are really saying to each other, but it is pretty much what is going on. This is just an unrealisitic expectation to place on someone. There is no guarantee that your "trial period" is going to work. Why would the vast majority of people choose to go this route over someone who was willing to explore a relationship with them from the outset?

 

Unless you are saying that you just don't tell the girl that you are getting to know her so you can "fully understand her" and decide whether or not you like her, but that is a whole other can of worms. It's dishonest, it's still a waste of time because as you said you have to decide you qualify her and she may not meet that qualifications, and since it takes a while to "fully understand" someone that could take a lot of time and effort. Are you keeping multiple leads open? Are you "befriending" multiple woman and judging their compatiblity all at once? How do they feel about you putting them in the judging zone before you give them a chance?

 

Talking about time, and using it efficiently in order to proceed to the next person so that the final outcome is that you meet and date more people and consequently fall in love with someone (because the probability/chances are higher by meeting more people), isn't that a sign of desperation?

 

How is that desperate? You are out meeting women you find attractive and appealing and you are asking them out on dates. How is this in any way desperate? I'm completely lost as to how you came to this conclusion.

 

Then again, wouldn't it hurt more if you were accepted but consequently was dumped because you didn't get to find out in-depth their personality and hence you were incompatible?

 

How would a girl telling you that it's not going to work out after a couple of dates going to hurt worse than being rejected outright by a girl you've been moving in close to and spending so much time with for months on end?

 

And what do you mean that you didn't get "in-depth" with their personality and hence were incompatible? Are you suggesting that by taking months and months on end getting close to someone as "friends" to judge their personality first ensures success IF she agrees after that time to date you?

 

Look, if she was that compatible with you then it is safe to assume that it would have worked out from the beginning had you just asked her out on a date rather than spending all of that time doing God knows what. At the very least you were far more honest and less demanding.

 

If she's not compatible after dating a few times, then she wouldn't have been compatible after spending months getting evaluated so you can "fully understand" her anyway. That argument is kind of defeated already.

 

I rather some thing long term than just a fling after the 'dating' phase. With all this flirting and etc during you dates, yes it may be attractive at that point, but will all this be done when you guys are together? And for how long after that point? I see it as, getting to know a person not during a special occasion and for a long period of time will reveal their true colours.

 

How would a person reveal the true colors any faster moving in as a pal tobe evaluated than if you were actually spending time with them under honest dating pretenses gaining actual relationship experience with them? Besides, if you're not telling a girl she was being "evaluated" by you until much later... aren't you holding off revealing your true colors?

 

What I'm trying to say is, there is no 'one approach suits all' as what you propose. I couldn't possibly write a theory on which would be the best method. It is situational, and thereforee, subjective. I'm sure I do not have as much experience as you do, but I'm pretty sure there is no one best way to go around doing things.

 

Of course, I agree. There is no "One Way Suits All" because we are all individuals. However when you evaluate dating and relationships you do see which ways almost universally work better. When you look at how much time you are spending, if you look at how many people you are meeting, when you look at how honest you are being, when you see how much of your own expectations you are placing on another because of your own social inhibitions, etc... being open and honest from the start and showing the confidence and competence to pursue your goals from the start is clearly overall the better way to go.

[Dark Prince]

So, what you guys are saying is that once you meet a new girl and you converse with them at least a couple of times or so its ok to ask them out on a date?

 

Or are you saying that after the first time you meet that new girl that its ok to ask them out then to try and see if it will work?

[Dating Coach]

What I am saying is that it's best to be open and honest about your interest. If you met a girl and found yourself attracted to her, then you should interact with her in a way that shows you are attracted... and you should pursue that attraction by working towards setting something up between you.

 

When I met my fiancee' I was at a dance club. I saw her and two other girls talking to a friend of mine so I walked up and introduced myself. I noticed her right away. She was cute, she smiled a lot, seemed very friendly, and thus she caught my interest. I talked to her a little bit and then asked her to dance. She said yes and so we spent the night dancing. At the end of the night I asked her for her number, she gave it to me. 2 days later I had called up and asked her out on a date and she said yes. The rest was history as we kept talking, kept setting up consecutive dates, etc. We ended up becoming exclusive about 3 or 4 weeks in. Here we are 5.5 years later.

[Rickster]

How is that desperate? You are out meeting women you find attractive and appealing and you are asking them out on dates. How is this in any way desperate? I'm completely lost as to how you came to this conclusion.

 

It's desperate because it sounds like you are on a woman hunt. Thinking of entering relationships the most efficient manner just does not sound right. The end result of all this dating by hastening the process and hence, dating more girls is only to achieve one thing in mind, that is, to get into a relationship. This sounds desperate enough.

 

 

 

How would a girl telling you that it's not going to work out after a couple of dates going to hurt worse than being rejected outright by a girl you've been moving in close to and spending so much time with for months on end?

 

Sorry, let me re-phrase my sentence. What I meant was because you didn't take the time needed to understand the person you are attracted to and realise you weren't/were meant for each other after entering into a relationship, your relationship would be rocky. Then how would it feel if you were dumped at this stage? I can tell you far worse than being rejected 'by moving in close to and spending so much time with for months'. By this time you've spent more time with the person.

 

This leads to the next point.

 

 

And what do you mean that you didn't get "in-depth" with their personality and hence were incompatible? Are you suggesting that by taking months and months on end getting close to someone as "friends" to judge their personality first ensures success IF she agrees after that time to date you?

 

Unless you are saying that you just don't tell the girl that you are getting to know her so you can "fully understand her" and decide whether or not you like her, but that is a whole other can of worms. It's dishonest, it's still a waste of time because as you said you have to decide you qualify her and she may not meet that qualifications, and since it takes a while to "fully understand" someone that could take a lot of time and effort. Are you keeping multiple leads open? Are you "befriending" multiple woman and judging their compatiblity all at once? How do they feel about you putting them in the judging zone before you give them a chance?

 

 

How would a person reveal the true colors any faster moving in as a pal to be evaluated than if you were actually spending time with them under honest dating pretenses gaining actual relationship experience with them? Besides, if you're not telling a girl she was being "evaluated" by you until much later... aren't you holding off revealing your true colors?

 

Of course not, nothing is ensured success. But by evaluating a person right from the start you'll know whether you are compatible, and thereforee, you know whether you can get along with such person. And I know that if you can't even get along with a person who you have hearts for (perhaps because of 'love at first sight'), then it is pretty much pointless to get into that relationship. This takes time. Once again, time and effort shouldn't be put into this context. If you were very intrigued by something, or very interested in someone, the amount of effort or time needed would not bother you, because you know it's worth it. We all have to work hard for the things we want, nothing comes as easy.

 

Lets put it this way, as much as we say we don't evaluate and judge people, subconsciously we do it. It is simply human nature. I'm pretty sure you and I have done it. If we don't judge and evaluate, how can we say that person looks pretty? How could you say your fiancee looked 'cute'? These are all forms of judgement and evaluation. I don't think there's anything wrong with judging a person when you know the facts in-depth. This is why I rather get to know the person in-depth and understand that person from there. And only then will I know whether I can get along with this person (this goes for even just normal friends guys/girls). There is nothing dishonest with evaluating a person when you keep an open-mind to it.

 

Look at it in a different way. If this was just a normal guy friend that you had to get along with in work, wouldn't you pick up all these cues and evaluate whether this person can be a friend to you?

 

Any form of contact with a person will enable you to evaluate them. Dating will enable you to evaluate them, true. But people act differently in different environments they are put in. I know sometimes I do. Dating only enables you to 'see' one side of them. And this may not even be their true colours because some people feel they have to impress their date; to be attractive. Then put that same person with a bunch of friends. Compare this to when that person is alone. Everyone acts differently. By just dating them, you only observe one aspect of that person. And even after that, what will they be thinking of you? When you meet her, and she knowing the fact you have an attraction for her. That 'mask' is still on.

 

 

Of course, I agree. There is no "One Way Suits All" because we are all individuals. However when you evaluate dating and relationships you do see which ways almost universally work better. When you look at how much time you are spending, if you look at how many people you are meeting, when you look at how honest you are being, when you see how much of your own expectations you are placing on another because of your own social inhibitions, etc... being open and honest from the start and showing the confidence and competence to pursue your goals from the start is clearly overall the better way to go.

 

Again, using the word universally implies that there is a 'one size fits all'. There just simply isn't. I can tell you one thing from my experience, when I met my ex from school, it took my 3-4 months to know her and tell her I had feelings for her. During that 3-4 months I never dated her, unless you call hanging out with a bunch of friends (including her) is dating. It was only after letting her know my feelings that we started dating from then on. Although I respect you in every possible way, this is contradictory to your guide/words. This is why I believe there couldn't possibly be a guide or some theory that can be drawn up. It is based upon situations.

 

Thanks for listening. I mean no harm.

[Rickster]

So, what you guys are saying is that once you meet a new girl and you converse with them at least a couple of times or so its ok to ask them out on a date?

 

Or are you saying that after the first time you meet that new girl that its ok to ask them out then to try and see if it will work?

 

 

Although I'm younger than you, there is one piece of advice I can give you. Don't be over-analytical about anything. Sadly, I'm over-analytical about... almost everything. I study accounting, and they train accountants to quantify everything (even where impossible) and analyse and evaluate the results. It can be good to be analytical, but in moderate amounts (nothing is good when excessive).

 

There is one thing I agree with DatingCoach... confidence. I've met some people that are confident, and they can pull off anything even without knowing what they are doing. And it works. I had a group mate that gave a presentation without knowing what the topic was on about. The lecturer didn't ask any question (instead the lecturer asked other presenters who looked not confident). Being over-analytical affects you confidence because you have that 2nd thought in your mind. "What if I can do it?". "The chances of my achieving x is y%".

 

I would just tell you to do what you feel confident about. IF that means asking her out the first time you meet her, or if that is after so many amount of years. You will know when the time is right. Good luck.

[Dark Prince]

Thanks guys....interesting discussion and points made.

 

I believe I have a good idea of where I want to go and I know it's only going to work with confidence and I believe I have that. Thanks for the replies guys.

[Dating Coach]

It's desperate because it sounds like you are on a woman hunt. Thinking of entering relationships the most efficient manner just does not sound right. The end result of all this dating by hastening the process and hence, dating more girls is only to achieve one thing in mind, that is, to get into a relationship. This sounds desperate enough.

 

This concept is out of my understanding. I am reviewing what you are saying in my mind and it just doesn't make sense to me. Since the vast majority of people go on dates or are not opposed to meeting someone and going out with them, I'd say that your preception is more than a little outside the norm.

 

Being open to meeting new people and going out a few times is not only FUN, but it's a good way to manage time for yourself and your own life. None of that is desperate. A "desperate person" is someone who is frightened and in need of help. That's the dictionary definition of the word. That in no way applies to someone who is open to meeting people and going out on dates.

 

Sorry, let me re-phrase my sentence. What I meant was because you didn't take the time needed to understand the person you are attracted to and realise you weren't/were meant for each other after entering into a relationship, your relationship would be rocky.

 

Well that's just false on so many levels. I met my fiancee' that way and we aren't rocky at all. Dating is a means to get to know someone anyway. That's the whole point.

 

Of course not, nothing is ensured success. But by evaluating a person right from the start you'll know whether you are compatible, and thereforee, you know whether you can get along with such person.

 

By dating you are learning about that person in the same context of a relationship. A romantic relationship is DIFFERENT than platonic friendship. What you have between you and another as a friend is not going to be the same as you would if you were a couple.

 

Dating is getting to know the person openly and honestly in a romantic relationship. Not only is it honest about the intentions you both share, not only are you managing your time better, not only are you increasing your chances of success, not only are you not sending mixed and confusing signals, but you are also learning about that person in the same context as a relationship.

 

This is why I rather get to know the person in-depth and understand that person from there.

 

You can do that by dating. What's so terrifying to you to go out to dinner with a girl you just met? What are you so afraid of?

 

There is nothing dishonest with evaluating a person when you keep an open-mind to it.

 

If you are moving in as friends but without her knowledge you are doing so because you want to evaluate her as to whether or not she meets your qualifications, then it's dishonest. If she thinks that this is "just friendship" and it's more than that to you, then it's dishonest.

 

Any form of contact with a person will enable you to evaluate them. Dating will enable you to evaluate them, true. But people act differently in different environments they are put in. I know sometimes I do. Dating only enables you to 'see' one side of them. And this may not even be their true colours because some people feel they have to impress their date; to be attractive.

 

You think that by being the platonic friend for a time will allow you to get to know them on a romantic level more than dating would? Are you serious?

 

Then put that same person with a bunch of friends. Compare this to when that person is alone. Everyone acts differently. By just dating them, you only observe one aspect of that person.

 

Absolutely NOT true. I think I know, since I dated and moved to a relationship. I have also pulled the secret friend with a crush move too.

 

Again, using the word universally implies that there is a 'one size fits all'. There just simply isn't.

 

Not sure what you are talking about here. I never implied "one size fits all" so let's move on.

 

I can tell you one thing from my experience, when I met my ex from school, it took my 3-4 months to know her and tell her I had feelings for her. During that 3-4 months I never dated her, unless you call hanging out with a bunch of friends (including her) is dating. It was only after letting her know my feelings that we started dating from then on. Although I respect you in every possible way, this is contradictory to your guide/words. This is why I believe there couldn't possibly be a guide or some theory that can be drawn up. It is based upon situations.

 

it does not contradict my Guide. The Guide is not a rulebook, it's a "Guide". It deals with the most common scenarios and problems that people tend to run into and it explains how the majority of these situations work. It never says "this or that can never happen or work this way". Not once. In fact, I think it clearly states that there is always an exception to the rule.

 

I'll tell you what though, for every guy that snuck in as friends first and found success I can point to 100 guys who failed that way and a 100 more who succeeded by being more direct about their attraction. Heck, these forums alone you can see the results speaking for themselves.

[Rickster]

I think this is getting into a heated debate. My intentions of my arguments is trying to point out that by going about your guide isn't necessarily the only efficient way to success. Dating is not possibly everything that will increase your chances. Heck, I hate to talk about efficiency in relationships. To me, in life, it doesn't matter how long it takes for me to get there, as long as I do.

 

Desperation is acting out of urgency, because you need something that you don't already have. I'm pretty sure about that. I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to explain.

 

I'm not saying that knowing a person through a platonic relationship will help develop a romantic relationship. What I'm saying is you will understand the 'inner' side of the person (not in a romantic way). From where I stand, I have to assess a person to see if she is compatible as a friend. Only then can I possibly like someone.

 

We can go on arguing about this, but if we have completely different thoughts, then I doubt we can come into an agreement. Seeing that you have high beliefs in your guide to dating, and I'm stubborn on my evaluating and assessing before any dating, there is just no way we are possibly going to reconcile.

 

Once again, I repeat, there isn't 'one method' to go about doing things. And there surely isn't 'one method' to go about doing things more efficiently.

[Dating Coach]

I think this is getting into a heated debate.

 

I'm not heated at all. I'm just discussing.

 

My intentions of my arguments is trying to point out that by going about your guide isn't necessarily the only efficient way to success.

 

If you want to make a point that there are other ways you can succeed then you don't have to. I concede that much. There are many ways to success.

 

What I will stand by is that sneaking in under the disguise of "Just Friends" is far and away a worse approach than being upfront from the beginning. The very few circumstances that actually can work out from sneaking in as "Just Friends" would almost certainly have worked another way as well... and probably more efficiently.

 

I've been around the Dating and Relationships scene for a long time studying it, learning how things usually work, etc. I wanted to understand it the best I could since it is a very confusing thing. From everything I have learned over the years, from my own personal experience, from the words of so many guys struggling, from the actions of women, etc all show just how unlikely it is for the sneaking in as friends approach when you are really interested is to work. Sure it has before, but the numbers show that it is about one of the worst approaches possible.

 

Dating is not possibly everything that will increase your chances. Heck, I hate to talk about efficiency in relationships. To me, in life, it doesn't matter how long it takes for me to get there, as long as I do.

 

Tell that to so many guys who moved in under the disguise of friends, spent months and sometimes years with one girl falling in love, only to be rejected. Tell them that it's not a big deal that they did this when they could have found out she wasn't interested from Day 1, only they were too uncertain of themselves to find that out until months later.

 

Desperation is acting out of urgency, because you need something that you don't already have. I'm pretty sure about that. I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to explain.

 

Who says dating is acting out of urgency? When I was single I would meet many women who caught my interest. It was a great time goin gout with them once, twice, three times, etc even if after that I learned that we weren't compatible. I never felt rushed or urged.

 

I do understand what you are trying to do. You're trying to justify the course of action you took with your current partner. You don't have to. I am happy for you. The only part I have a problem with is encouraging others to do the same when the vast majority of the time it doesn't work out and it leaves the guys destroyed over it when they could have avoided all of that by learning of her incompatibility so much sooner and before they became so invested in a girl that wasn't the one.

 

I'm not saying that knowing a person through a platonic relationship will help develop a romantic relationship. What I'm saying is you will understand the 'inner' side of the person (not in a romantic way).

 

You can learn about the "inner side" of a person in more ways than becoming a platonic friend. This is no "advantage" to being the sneaky friend with the crush first. It is something anyone can do in a number of ways.

 

From where I stand, I have to assess a person to see if she is compatible as a friend. Only then can I possibly like someone.

 

While a guy being the platonic friend she could start dating someone else, she could lose interest and look at the guy as "just a friend", she could have never been interested from the start, etc. You're gambling here. What is so wrong about being open from the start?

 

"Hey, I enjoy talking with you. How about we continue this conversation over a drink Thursday?"

 

If all goes well:

 

"I'm going to a wedding Saturday and I need a date. I figured who should have this honor other than you? How about it? Pick you up at 6:00?"

 

You're not saying, "We are boyfriend and girlfriend now" you're just two people hanging out and acknowledging a mutual interest in each other. She knows that you dig her and she also digs you thus far. So you keep doing things together while accepting this fact openly. If things keep going well you keep going out. If it continues you then become an item. If not then you part ways and either continue as "just friends" or simply move on. At least you know where you stand with this person at all times. At least you know if she's willing to work with you on seeing if there is something more between you.

 

Being the guy she thinks is only a platonic friend when you are really seeing if there is more is not being open and honest. It's hiding the fact. Not only that, but you're sending her confusing signals. Here she is being told by your actions that you're "just friends" when you really are thinking that there might be more. During this time she could start seeing someone else. What if this happens after you spent 3 months "evaluating her" and you just decided you like her and want more? Suddenly she tells you she's seeing someone. Whoops! Or what if you finally break the news to her and she tells you she's only ever saw you as a friend. Where did those three months go? You can't get them back. Or what if you ruin the friendship by dropping this bomb on her? Here she was thinking you were a pal only and now you just changed the terms of the deal and let her know you want more? What if that's too much for her to deal with since she just wanted you as a pal, and now she can't go back to this knowing you want more?

 

It's just all around not a good way to go about it. Sure there are occasions where the girl may have had a secret crush on him as well, and thus it worked out, but that would have almost certainly worked out regardless without gambling so much by keeping it a secret.

 

We can go on arguing about this, but if we have completely different thoughts, then I doubt we can come into an agreement. Seeing that you have high beliefs in your guide to dating, and I'm stubborn on my evaluating and assessing before any dating, there is just no way we are possibly going to reconcile.

 

You can go about your way all day, I am not telling you that you cannot. I'm happy you found success. My beliefs are based upon all the facts I have seen from thousands of situations in the Dating Scene. Byond my own personal experiences related to this matter I have seen countless men and women have come here talking about related situations and the extreme majority supports my conclusion. It is one of the worst ways to go about building a romantic relationship with a woman. There are so many different reasons for this and I have gone over more than a few.

 

Once again, I repeat, there isn't 'one method' to go about doing things. And there surely isn't 'one method' to go about doing things more efficiently.

 

I never said there was just one method to gain results, but certain methods are more likely to gain a positive result than others. The numbers speak for themselves, even if the reasoning and logic behind them fail to reach you.

 

And again, I am not heated or angry. I am holding firm because I have seen this played out way too many times to ignore the results. I've been working in this field/situation trying to learn all I can for about 6 years now and I have seen this played out thousands of times and only a handful have worked out for the better going the route you did. So yes, it is possible, but I will stand firm based upon the overwhelming results I have seen contrary to your path. The exception is not the rule. I think that you are personally involved with your point because it is the way you went. You want to defend it. I just feel you are ignoring the points I have made because your heart is tied to your personal experience and thus you won't accept my reasoning.

[Rickster]

And again, I am not heated or angry. I am holding firm because I have seen this played out way too many times to ignore the results. I've been working in this field/situation trying to learn all I can for about 6 years now and I have seen this played out thousands of times and only a handful have worked out for the better going the route you did. So yes, it is possible, but I will stand firm based upon the overwhelming results I have seen contrary to your path. The exception is not the rule. I think that you are personally involved with your point because it is the way you went. You want to defend it. I just feel you are ignoring the points I have made because your heart is tied to your personal experience and thus you won't accept my reasoning.

 

I do understand what you are trying to do. You're trying to justify the course of action you took with your current partner. You don't have to. I am happy for you. The only part I have a problem with is encouraging others to do the same when the vast majority of the time it doesn't work out and it leaves the guys destroyed over it when they could have avoided all of that by learning of her incompatibility so much sooner and before they became so invested in a girl that wasn't the one.

 

The only reason why I told you my personal experience was to enlighten you that going your route was not the only way. I'm not saying that I think everyone should follow what I did. There was purely no intention to defend what I think. (Please read until last paragraph).

 

The reason why I'm overly critical about your guide and your belief is because it is one directional. I disbelief in commonalities in situations and people; there will always exist differences. This is the nature of people. I could understand if you wrote a guide on computers, for example. For example, what about those people on cyber-relationships? On long distance relationships? Different cultures, religions, and beliefs? Differing personalities and traits? Even they people they like may not like people who are confident (as was said in your guide). Infact, there may even be people who like shy and conservative people. These are just the few differences there could occur. There could be so many more and your guide/words ignores that. We should respect each other's differences and be proud of it. If a person was shy and wished to follow your guide, he would need to change to become confident and courageous. I don't think anyone should change unless it is for the 'better'. And what is 'better'? This is the individual's perception of 'better'. If they thought being shy and conservative was 'better', then they shouldn't need to change. If they thought being confident was 'better', then by all means they should change to become 'better'. But your guide/words ignore this. Let's face it, if everyone in the world picked up the personality traits you list, the world would be one boring place. There would be nothing new to learn, nothing interesting to find out, because you already know it. A relationship would be very boring in this case, because there is nothing to explore in each other.

 

Writing a guide based on this is... well impossible. If you had to list down each and every situation and differences and write a particular situation and difference, you would have to write countless situations and differences (this I can't imagine). thereforee, if someone had a dating problem, you cannot slap them on the face with a guide and say "your answer lies in here". I'm not sure if this would be a correct word to use, but I suppose we should tackle people's problems in an ad hoc manner.

 

Again I repeat, I don't believe that what I did could and will work. I never suggested to anyone that they should do I what did. If you read my post to Dark Prince, you will understand. I'm not going to attack your guide for encouraging people to do the same as you as what you've said about me. I think it's up to the person to take or leave advice.

 

 

Who says dating is acting out of urgency? When I was single I would meet many women who caught my interest. It was a great time goin gout with them once, twice, three times, etc even if after that I learned that we weren't compatible. I never felt rushed or urged.

 

I never said dating was acting out of urgency. I said that acting efficiently to date someone was being desperate. If you read my posts, my idea of it was that by moving in to date countless women wasting no time because you were trying to be efficient in the process, this is desperation.

 

 

You're not saying, "We are boyfriend and girlfriend now" you're just two people hanging out and acknowledging a mutual interest in each other. She knows that you dig her and she also digs you thus far. So you keep doing things together while accepting this fact openly. If things keep going well you keep going out. If it continues you then become an item. If not then you part ways and either continue as "just friends" or simply move on. At least you know where you stand with this person at all times. At least you know if she's willing to work with you on seeing if there is something more between you.

 

Being the guy she thinks is only a platonic friend when you are really seeing if there is more is not being open and honest. It's hiding the fact. Not only that, but you're sending her confusing signals. Here she is being told by your actions that you're "just friends" when you really are thinking that there might be more. During this time she could start seeing someone else. What if this happens after you spent 3 months "evaluating her" and you just decided you like her and want more? Suddenly she tells you she's seeing someone. Whoops! Or what if you finally break the news to her and she tells you she's only ever saw you as a friend. Where did those three months go? You can't get them back. Or what if you ruin the friendship by dropping this bomb on her? Here she was thinking you were a pal only and now you just changed the terms of the deal and let her know you want more? What if that's too much for her to deal with since she just wanted you as a pal, and now she can't go back to this knowing you want more?

 

 

Well the way that I work is different. I'm first going to speak about friendships (not relationships, not people that I like, but normal friends both guys and girls). To me, I rather a smaller group of friends but better and closer friends. For some, they rather a bigger group of friends, who might be difficult to keep touch of all, and quite a few of them may not be very nice even if you do keep in touch. thereforee, I evaluate and assess people because I rather having friends who are going to be there for me. If you take this into a relationship context, I need to know whether that person that I've hearts for is really just a crush or is someone that I feel can go longer than a crush because there are compatabilities. If I have the same feelings 3 months down the road or 1 year down the road (at least something long) then I know I really have feelings for such and such person. If she had to break the bad news for me, so be it (the world is not kind). Yes, I will feel distraught, but it doesn't stop me from developing feelings for someone else. You may not understand the complexitity of how I think, and I don't think you would. I find it rather difficult to describe as well.

 

I don't come from America, and maybe I don't understand the cultural differences. But I'm pretty sure that from where I come from, girls will not date some random person of the street.

 

 

 

Tell that to so many guys who moved in under the disguise of friends, spent months and sometimes years with one girl falling in love, only to be rejected. Tell them that it's not a big deal that they did this when they could have found out she wasn't interested from Day 1, only they were too uncertain of themselves to find that out until months later.

 

As what I've said before, I would rather they reject me when I was not in a relationship than if I was in a relationship and it was broken off because I never knew them well enough causing clashes of personality. In a relationship stage, you are bound to feel worse. Why? Because you already have a feeling of acceptance from the significant other. Your heart is all jumpy and excited. When later you find out she's not meant for you. When you are just interested in a person, yes you may feel all excited about it, but there is no acceptance from the other person.

[Dating Coach]

The only reason why I told you my personal experience was to enlighten you that going your route was not the only way.

 

The reason why I'm overly critical about your guide and your belief is because it is one directional.

 

Rickster, Rickster, Rickster... are you really continuing along this line of reasoning? How many times have I already said that there are more than "one way" or "one direction"? How many times must I say it? If you are going to ignore what I have said and keep spinning this around as if I am taking the stance that "my way is the only way" then there really is no reason to continue talking.

 

A discussion is when two people are listening to each other and right now I don't think you're listening. My stance is not about there only being one way and it never has been. What I am saying is that the extreme majority of the time it is better to be upfront and honest about your attraction to someone than to sneak in as friends, and I have provided many examples backing why this is.

 

If a person was shy and wished to follow your guide, he would need to change to become confident and courageous. I don't think anyone should change unless it is for the 'better'. And what is 'better'? This is the individual's perception of 'better'. If they thought being shy and conservative was 'better', then they shouldn't need to change. If they thought being confident was 'better', then by all means they should change to become 'better'. But your guide/words ignore this. Let's face it, if everyone in the world picked up the personality traits you list, the world would be one boring place. There would be nothing new to learn, nothing interesting to find out, because you already know it. A relationship would be very boring in this case, because there is nothing to explore in each other.

 

I'm sorry but this is an absurd ramble and has no basis in fact. I don't even have a clue how you got from my points about gaining self confidence and improving your self image to thinking that doing so will make the world boring and relationships redundant. How in the world did you come to this conclusion? I'm not going to comment on that any further because it's ridiculous.

 

About gaining confidence. Why shouldn't someone believe in themselves? That's what I am talking about in the "Guide". Believing in yourself and respecting yourself. Yes, I do believe that if people had a stronger self image they could then accomplish more for themselves. Self Improvement is key in EVERYTHING. It's what life if all about.

 

Why are you against a shy person working to overcome shyness? Being shy isn't who a person is, and becoming less shy doesn't change who a person is. The same core values are still there. Shyness isn't who a person is. It's an action. The very definition of shy involves being fearful, hesitant, disposed to avoid a person or thing. Being shy can PREVENT someone from acting as they really wish, and thus holds a person back from being themselves and doing what they want. What's so wrong about trying to become less shy?

 

Look around these forums. SO MANY GUYS on here talk about how much they wish they could open up more and talk to a girl that caught there fancy but they're just too darn shy to do it. They're frustrated beyond belief because of their shyness putting such pressure on their desires.

 

Overcoming shyness doesn't change who you are, it allows you to be yourself more effectively. Things you want to do but couldn't because you were too shy may become much easier and less stressful after overcoming shyness. Just look at the guys who post here who finally managed to have a conversation with that girl in class they had their eye on. They're ecstatic because the finally did it. They overcame that social inhibition at that moment and felt a rush of freedom and joy.

 

There is nothing wrong with improving yourself, motivating yourself, making the best of your opportunities, pursuing your goals, etc. That's the point of the Guide. It was never intended to be a "Follow this rule, you get the girl you like". Never. It is a Guide to help you understand how the Dating Scene usually works, and how to help maximize your effectiveness by becoming more educated on it and yourself.

 

Let's face it. I've been around this for a long time and things follow trends. If I hear 100 cases of a guy crushing on a girl and 95 of them follow the exact same pattern then I'd say that these situations follow a common trend. IE the same things tend to happen to certain actions. You can see the eerily similar actions and eerily similar reactions in each situation. Practically identical. I'll give an example:

 

A fairly common one is when a guy who is inexperienced with having a partner crushes on a girl, moves in as friends, and much later on he decides to confess his love for her.

 

This example is fairly common here, we get loads of guys coming here with this same pattern of events. They liked girl, they became buddy buddy to the girl but never informed her of his feelings until much later when it comes spilling out and he confesses his love. What usually happens here? I'd say an EASY 95 out of 100 of these situations the guy gets rejected. EASY. In fact, in the 3 or so years I have been on this particular website I have seen less than 5 situations like this actually work out for the guy doing the confessing. But I have seen LOADS where the guy did his confessing and was either outright rejected, ignored, lead on, etc... but ultimately never ended up getting the relationship he wanted. Sometimes it even cost them that friendship as well.

 

Why? That kind of bomb is a HUGE load to drop on the girls shoulders. The odds clearly show (based upon results) that moving in as "just friends" tends to get her to see you as "just friends". So if she only sees you as her platonic friend (ie no romantic interest) and then suddenly that guy is confessing his deep romantic feelings for her, that's overwhelming. How can she even get into this relationship? How can she accept his offer? Here she is thinking of his as "a friend" and she's supposed to suddenly be involved with a guy confessing love to her?! She's going to be so far behind in feelings that it's an imbalance and a turn off. She's pressured to now act in a relationship where her feelings are so far behind his. She's not going to go from "I see you as a friend" to "I am totally in love with you" in a split second, and that's how fast her "friend" just changed the game. He changed it from "we're friends" to "I'm in love with you" in a matter of a few seconds. She's so far behind and now the pressure is on because he's wanting a serious relationship. She can't just step into it.

 

So what do most women tend to do in this situation? We've seen it over and over again. She'll turn him down. One way or another, she'll turn him down. Either by outright telling him they are just friends, by ignoring his plea for more and hoping things will return to normal, by cutting off contact for a time hoping he will get over it, etc. Whichever way she goes, she's not hooking up with him.

 

Now I know that SOMETIMES the girl actually does hook up with the guy. There is always the exception. Heck, playing the lottery is almost a certain loss but SOMETIMES someone wins. It doesn't mean that you should go into every lottery ticket purchase thinking you have the winning numbers.

 

The extremely few times this actually worked out okay for the guy, the girl was interested in him all along. She was already interested in him so his confession wasn't a change in the game so much for her. She'd already be looking at him like that. But this is very rare because the numbers don't lie and the numbers tell you that the extreme majority of the time when a guy fills the role of the "friend" then that is exactly how she sees him. Just a "friend".

Besides, even if she did still like him during the "friendship" to where she accepted his confession... he could STILL have got that "yes" from her by being open and honest upfront. There is nothing that being the sneaky friend with a crush has over being open and honest upfront, but there is a ton that being honest and open upfront has over the friend route. We've already gone over many of them, such as if the girl only ever saw the guy as a "friend" and he was open upfront, he would have found this fact out well before he became so involved with her that he fell in love before learning this fact. He would have spared himself so much time and heartache by learning not to pursue this girl from the start rather than only learning this after moving in as friends for a time and then after that confessing.

 

if someone had a dating problem, you cannot slap them on the face with a guide and say "your answer lies in here". I'm not sure if this would be a correct word to use, but I suppose we should tackle people's problems in an ad hoc manner.

 

I've already gone over this for you. The Guide is not a "How To" book. I've already stated that. What that means is that I am not saying "your answer lies in here". I am referencing the Guide to use as a general rule since it covers and explains the most common scenarios. Most people can relate to what it covers and what it talks about tends to make a lot of sense to them. Of course on an individual basis they are encourage to ask questions pertaining to their specifics. I get plenty of PM's from guys asking for specifics.

 

I never said dating was acting out of urgency. I said that acting efficiently to date someone was being desperate. If you read my posts, my idea of it was that by moving in to date countless women wasting no time because you were trying to be efficient in the process, this is desperation.

 

Keeping your options open and meeting numerous people is not desperate. End of story.

 

I don't come from America, and maybe I don't understand the cultural differences. But I'm pretty sure that from where I come from, girls will not date some random person of the street.

 

Maybe it is the cultural differences. Many people here do date others they had just met, but it's not likely to be a situation where a girl walks down the street and a guy runs up to her and says, "I want you" and they start dating. While that wild scenario probably did happen at some point, that's not what I am talking about.

 

As what I've said before, I would rather they reject me when I was not in a relationship than if I was in a relationship and it was broken off because I never knew them well enough causing clashes of personality. In a relationship stage, you are bound to feel worse. Why? Because you already have a feeling of acceptance from the significant other. Your heart is all jumpy and excited. When later you find out she's not meant for you. When you are just interested in a person, yes you may feel all excited about it, but there is no acceptance from the other person.

 

You cannot guarantee success. That'd what you are trying to do. ANY healthy relationship is going to have those clashes that you fear so much. In fact, I believe that having clashes is a sign of a healthy relationship as long as they are clashing in a respectful manner. If there is a clash then both parties are trying to stick up for themselves, and that is KEY in a healthy relationship. NO relationship is devoid of conflict, because if a relationship never has any clashes then one person in that relationship is being a complete pushover and letting the other party have their way. That in itself is a formula for disaster.

 

First off, Dating is NOT a exclusive relationship. Going out on a date with a person is not the same as taking it to a level where you may be with that person forever. Going out a few times and realizing that it's just not going to work shouldn't be destroying you, and if it is then the real issue isn't dating, the issue is with the person and their psychiatric state. THAT needs to be addressed as no one should be attaching themselves so much that it destroys them that a person they went out with a couple of times turned out to not be the right person.

 

Secondly, moving in as the buddy for a year and developing a major crush doesn't guarantee or ensure success of a relationship even if you happen to achieve it that way (and the odds have shown to be against you even getting this far). You can't ensure it. That's what you are saying. You're trying to ensure that you get it right the very first time you try... and that's just not how it works. I am sure there have been cases where a couple worked it out the first time (usually in the older generation or with other cultures) but these days most people don't get it right their very first try. Suggesting that a person should try getting it perfect their very first try is not in touch with reality.

 

You seem to have a strong fear of rejection. Your very own words are suggesting this because you want to avoid any conflict.

[bostonbruins24]

I agree that it is ideal to tease and flirt if you can but a shy person who doesn't have a lot of experience is going to crash and burn a lot.I think the most important thing that a shy person could do would be to take the plunge fairly early on in the encounter and ask her out or ask for her number.Most shy guys will wait too long and blow the opportunity.Most shy guys will have accomplished something just by taking the plunge whether or not she says yes.