Communication

[rocio]

Ok, then I guess you know what's best for you guys. Best of luck to you.

[ghost69]

Why though? I mean you have said that often but to me it seems normal and something that everyone deals with on here.

 

that's why i'm

[darkpumpkin]

that's why i'm

 

Yeah, I know. But the brightside, I am learning a lot about myself by coming here and talking about issues that I am having in this relationship. Even if the relationship may not be the best fit for me.

[ghost69]

Yeah, I know. But the brightside, I am learning a lot about myself by coming here and talking about issues that I am having in this relationship. Even if the relationship may not be the best fit for me.

 

why would you say that and continue? i think you DO know.

[Excalibur]

Realistically -the first 6-9 months is spent spending more time on making a good impression - it's infatuation. The "way I see me thru your attention is very positive" - and you want more of that view of yourself.

 

It'd be realistic to expect over time that the person ceases to prioritize "impressing" you - to have your adoration, because it makes them have an ego boost.

 

That "getting comfortable" element - is when you begin your evaluation of their character, traits, abilities, and intelligence.

 

It's why it is so important to revel in the emotional aspect of infatuation...it's delight, giddy high, anticipation and joy of being found so delightful, desirable, charming and amusing.

 

If you revel in that and don't attempt to ignore those feelings to begin the "interview nad assessment' of them......then when it fades, you've had from it all it has to offer, with none of the negative of attemting to objectively evaluate with rose-colored glasses on.

 

 

 

I was just stating that I am now grouped into that as well.

Values justify actions. You won't be treated as an exception to their values, you'll be treated and regard in accordance with them. That's rationally logical - anything else is delusional.

 

 

 

He then barks back that I take for granted the rides he gives me to and from his house, or the money he spends on me, and that I should be more understading about his job and that he's tired.

 

If you didn't take what he said personally - which is very hard not to do - you'd hear him stating that he doesn't believe he's receiving the appropriate amount of approval and appreciation for the time and money he spends on you in interaction.

 

If you are appreciative of these elements appropriately in your opinion - and you're manifesting it by your standards - you don't have anything to change. You're just now aware that his view is that he's to receive more applause and accolades for doing with/for you........and that would be something to be aware of in the future. That anything he does for you he expects an over the top in your standards impression levelof appreciation.

 

 

 

 

These things are absurd because I know where I have to go and find the way to get there, not by him but by my own indvidual means. Except I did become upset when he wanted me to come over and then told me to take a taxi in the morning when we first started dating. But in that instance I clearly asked if he would drive me home and he agreed. Apparently you currently don't drive, or don't have your own transportation. While that might not have been an issue when he first began dating you - he ight be finding out now it's still him doing all his own errands and chores and tasks....things he might be combining for mutual ease, he doesn't/can't.

 

When people first start dating what doesn't matter - often does matter as time goes on.

 

 

As for money, I always offer to pay for my share and treat him as well. He's the one who tells me no I've got it.

The work thing is just stupid to me, he always tells me he's doing it for our future. It's not OUR future it's his future. And if its not the one he wants then at least he gets a paycheck at the end of each month. He's working the same job? So he was working for his future and his security when you met - and he's still doing it.

 

 

I am in this for him There's the problem. while he's securing his present adn future - you're basically stating everything within me is giong to serve your needs, your interests, your goals".

 

THAT is why he perceives he's working for "our future" - you're totally living vicariusly through him in terms of what you're going to become and have....all your energy and efforts are invested in his 'goals".

 

That's VERY carniverously debilitating to everybody involved.

 

Healthy relationships are parallel paths by personal choice associations. It's not running someone else's marathon with them - because it's important to them. If you twist an ankle doing that - you're going to resent hvaing put so much of yourself into "his effort" - only to find yourself left behind because he's committed to the marathon and a finish.

 

 

 

not the "future" and sometimes it gets hard dealing with someone who will always put work first. Well, everybody has to put 'somemthing" first. If people haven't really developed passionate interests and personal goals - there is work, there is tasks and chores of lifestyle maintenance, and thre is distraction and diverse based on time/money available of "going out".

 

I do get whre you're coming from though...it's just I see it from an objective position now. My last ex "seriously dated nad pursued me" for 6 months - and I loved it, and unrealistically I thought all of his time/energy/effort would continue to be towards me in his off-work hours.

 

About 6 months into the relationship I'd committed several serious errors of beginning cohabitation, cutting off my other options to financial security, and involving him with my child. The man was not being unfair or deceitful - but he did resume "his life' - he'd spend 6 months in distraction and diversion from his other interests in life - becuase "work" was an 8-5 proposition.

 

It wasn't until 12 years after we first met and moved in, 4 years after our divorce....that in conversation with him because we do share a passionate interest he reveealed that he was deeply depressed when we met. I had no idea - he was laughing, charming, outgoing, and awlays on the move when we met - and it didn't fit the profile of someone that was depressed. But he was coming to a point of realization about his passionate interest in life and his lack of ability realistically to achieve the "ultimate win"...it was depressing as it could be, and having a hot, fun, girl on his arm was a welcome distraction from it.

 

Our lives together however were 'his life' post-infatuation - which was primarily nothing but work, or him pursuing his passionate interest, with now me handling teh chores, tasks, and duties that made it easier for me to live with him rather than in slovenly poverty, etc.

 

If you can put any of that into your situation and glean something, go ahead, I think there's alot of similarities to what you're doing and expecting.

 

 

 

 

 

Leave for weeks or even months on end without no warning. I'm not perfect and I sure as hell am not some cheerleader or support group. I'll be frank.......successful people in any element of life are "selfish" - they have to be. Selifhs is not self-centered and it's not self-less. It's an approriate value on self and the time/energy/assets of self, and the obligation and accountability and responsiblity to self.

 

People driven to achieve and succeed with the intelligent approach to success- they either pay for services and conveniences - or else peopel that fall for their potential, and enjoy being in an adjunctive position - align with them.

 

He doesn't necessarily need a cheerleader or a support group. But waht he does not need, or possibly want, it someone in his life that i scomplaining about how driven he is to achieve his goals.

 

Soyoure with someone that you already know receives a great deal of thier identity thru work, and work related effots and successes. You thinking he'd challenge that identity and success perception into "being with you" - that won't work.

 

He's always going to work at this level and to this extent - as long as it meets his needs - not just financially.

 

Using money as a way to outline or example "investnment" in something is great...but the reality is most people would do waht they're doing without money - they've got a positive emotional association with it and their image and abilities.

 

 

 

 

 

I've got my own life and my own worrires and stresses.

Maybe I'm just angry in general, not satisfying my own needs and expecting him to come to the rescue. Still can't help the feeling I'm being taken for granted though.

 

Don't give him of your time/energy/effort/abilities what you don't want him to have - it's not a loan, it's not a barter exchange...i's a gift.

 

don't give to get.

[darkpumpkin]

something you have said ring very true. He is depressed but hides it, and I think he thought having a girlfriend would solve that. It has not, another thing that is weighing on him that I realize reading your post is his drive to maybe have a finacial equal in his partner. Something that I at this time can not be and for the moment do not want to be. I am not happy in my finacial situation but have no desire to change it, in which case it will not change and I will have to suffer with the unhappiness at the moment.

 

He does what he does because he likes the money and the gratification he receives from it. But he does not have a clear path for his future, he makes the money spends it on trivial things. One thing that started off as a joke but was also mentioned last night was he wanted to buy a motocycle. He wants to buy a house but he says he needs his toys. I jokingly said he could buy a motocyle after he asks me to marry him. It was a joke, we used to joke between us, at times he would even fish for me to tell him that he had to marry me first. Last night he told me he was surprised he hadn't bought one yet not joking in the least.

[Excalibur]

something you have said ring very true. He is depressed but hides it, and I think he thought having a girlfriend would solve that. people that lack self-awareness tend to believe that the thing theydon't have - will fix the problems they do have.

 

 

 

 

It has not, another thing that is weighing on him that I realize reading your post is his drive to maybe have a finacial equal in his partner. Partnership is an equality based dynamic. That odesn't mean you each must have the same amount of money per se. But if one person believes that they're shouldering teh burden of "our livestyle and future" with thier efforts - it becomes parenting - not partnership.

 

It has them believing that you should be more obedient, as you're not capable of achieving what they are achieving at this time, and obviously want to have as you've aligned with them.

 

It won't make any sense...but "sit down, shut up, stay in sync, paddle hard" - that waas the requirement of my ex husband early in our marriage when I wanted to do a very dangerous and difficult athletic event, and had no experience or skill.

 

He was willing to shoulder the burden of most of the physical work all of the planning and strategizing, and hold the responsiblity based position of making all decisions that would hopefully keep us safe.......but he could not do it with my asking questions about why we were doing waht we were doing, or did we have to do this or that...that was just me expressing my fears and concerns about my inabilities- while in the midst of a potentially fatal endeavor if not well executed.

 

At the time his "sit down, shut up, stay in sync, paddle hard" was hard to swallow - and I did what he said, when and how he said ONLY to fulfill my commitment to the team I had so desperately wanted to be on....i did it resentfully and at the conclusion of a very successful "win" in this event - I stepped out of the team and decided "I know I can doo this now, I will go solo".

 

Really, seriously....it took me 5 years of totally restructuring my life while remaining with him to be able t complete solo what I had done in 6 months of training wtih him as a drunk. Why - because I lacked the solo skills and abilities and it takes time to acquire them. My first attempt at the race ever - was with him - and resulted in a win. My next 3 attempts at the race solo ended in a did not finish - because i lacked the skills and abilities, and self-responsible mindset to do everything for myself, on my own, as situations arose, based on my skill level.

 

It took becoming successful at "solo on the water' - while mirroring that in life - for me to recognize and appreciate the gift he gave me when agreeing to take me where I could not take myself, to allow me to expand my world. and indeed, sit down, shut up, stay in sync, paddle hard - it was required based on our disparity of ability.

 

 

 

 

 

Something that I at this time can not be and for the moment do not want to be. I am not happy in my finacial situation but have no desire to change it, in which case it will not change and I will have to suffer with the unhappiness at the moment. I woldn't see any situation you're not wanting to change as being "bad" in your opinion. It's not necessarily where you want to be - but you recognize in light of the effort you're willing to put out - it's where you're going to stay, until you want osmething different. That acknowledged lets it be a fact - rather than a judgement or a negative.

 

 

He does what he does because he likes the money and the gratification he receives from it. But he does not have a clear path for his future, he makes the money spends it on trivial things. But it's what he wants to do - and in having the responsiblity to earn the money- he has the right to spend it as he wishes.

 

 

 

One thing that started off as a joke but was also mentioned last night was he wanted to buy a motocycle. It'll probably be his next purchase, if he wants one - he apparently can afford it

 

 

He wants to buy a house but he says he needs his toys. all he's saying is - is that he won't be without what brings him joy, distraction, or pleasure - to have what society says is good to have.

 

Some people are hearth-home hub types - and other people are comfortable anywhere in the world, no matter where they go and see something like a house as 'tying them down and limiting their options".

 

 

 

I jokingly said he could buy a motocyle after he asks me to marry him. It was a joke, we used to joke between us, at times he would even fish for me to tell him now that he had to marry me first. Last night he told me he was surprised he hadn't bought one yet not joking in the least. I'm not sure i understand your concern with the remark - you'd have to elaborate on it.

[darkpumpkin]

My concern was that this is the first time he looked me straight in the eye and said he didn't know why he hasn't purchased one yet. When for the last 6 months it has been "no, that's the agreement. I will ask you to marry me then I can get a motorcycle because now that I have met you I want a house and family".

 

So I guess in my mind it seemed that he had changed his mind and stand point on that subject. Which he has the right to do.

 

When it comes to the working, I try to be supportive but all he EVER does is whine that he doens't have days off or that he's tired or that he hates his job. Or becomes depressed or sad on a constant basis that he has to work and has no free time.

 

I don't like my job but I do not whine about it because I am passionate about the company I work for even if what I do daily is not something I enjoy.

 

I also expressed my standpoint of living together, that I do not want to just live with a man and that I want to take this plunge for 6 months and then I will need to re-evaluate our relationship if we have not moved to the next step. He told me he doesn't like time limits or ultimatims. It wasn't in my mind. I was stating what actions I would need to do for me.

 

Many times he wants his cake and eat it to. Meaning he does want a finacial equal partner who has individiual wants and needs yet he wants the cute bubble head who wants to be the little wife. He wants the house but does not want to save the money to buy it, but tells himself that is why he is working. He wants to spend time with me (really just have me around) but then goes and plays video games for 2 hours without me even being in the same room.

[Excalibur]

My concern was that this is the first time he looked me straight in the eye and said he didn't know why he hasn't purchased one yet. When for the last 6 months it has been "no, that's the agreement. I will ask you to marry me then I can get a motorcycle because now that I have met you I want a house and family". the idea that he can't have a motorcycle until the house/family/ring on your finger etc. exists is one of a dysfunctional reasoning nature, it appears.

 

Why shouldn't he have what he wants - if it's a motorcycle so be it. He's not asking someone else to pay for it or maintain it.

 

I know that people can't go out making major purchases every weekend unless they're vastly wealthy...but the impression that you have that he's got to have a house, a family B4 a motorcycle - almost implies "instead of".

 

HE's a single man...if he wants a motorcycle he'll have one. What that has to do with limiting the options on a family and a house is really not realistic. A motorcycle isn't a $50k high end SUV or a $100k Hummer.

 

These little "tests" are backfiring..........while it might have started out as a joke, you'd do well to return it to that status quo. You're basically telling the man there are things you cannot have - until you satisfy me.....that's a sure way to have him wanting no relationship.

 

And it puts you in the victim's mindset of being unable to get what YOu want, without his cooperation and assistance.

 

 

 

 

 

So I guess in my mind it seemed that he had changed his mind and stand point on that subject. Which he has the right to do. Again, i thnk it was a joke originally wasn't it "you can't have a motorcycle until you ask me to marry you"...and it's progressed from that to until we're married, have a house and children...this is the carrot that is being used to spur the donkey into motion....while it never gets the carrot.

 

When it comes to the working, I try to be supportive but all he EVER does is whine that he doens't have days off or that he's tired or that he hates his job. Some people like to whine, if they have nothing to complain about - they complain about that. While it's not my style - I certainly am familiar with it. And if youo're not wanting to be with someone of this ilk, he's probalby not the man for you.

 

Or becomes depressed or sad on a constant basis that he has to work and has no free time. Again, you're impacted by his perception - but you're not in charge of it or changing it.

 

He has "no free time" - because he has no use or value for his free time. Believe me....the second I had something I wanted to do with my time.....I found time and plenty of it...and suddenly it wasn't nearly as a important to be a support unit, or a cheerleader, or have a house you could eat off the floor of because of it.

 

 

 

I don't like my job but I do not whine about it because I am passionate about the company I work for even if what I do daily is not something I enjoy. but that's the point you're passionately consumed or involved in the company - so you're ding what you must in your job - to further that entity. He's not there with his job.

 

And, you didn't know him before you met him - so you don't have any way to know, but it sounds like he's one of these that always is going to be complainign about something. HE creates what overwhelms him - and complains about it overwhelming him.

 

 

 

I also expressed my standpoint of living together, that I do not want to just live with a man and that I want to take this plunge for 6 months and then I will need to re-evaluate our relationship if we have not moved to the next step. Before I respond to it -i need some clarification.

 

You're stating "I don't believe in living together unless it's guaranteed to result in marriage, but I"m willing to live with you for 6 months onlyl attemtpping to get you to promise me marriage at some point".

 

How ridiculous is that - if that's what you're proposing - to you both.

 

 

 

 

 

He told me he doesn't like time limits or ultimatims. It wasn't in my mind. I was stating what actions I would need to do for me. What you're proposing is to move into his home, become intregral to his daily life in terms of conveniences and options - and then you want to rip the rug out from under that in 6 months IF HE WON'T MARRY YOU.

 

Most bassackwards denial based utlimatum I"ve heard in awhile - LOL.

 

If i were him - you woulldn't be moving in or integrated into my life having stated your position that you don't want that level of ocmmitment or involvement without guarantees. Since he's not prepared to offer you marriage now - then there is no need for him to further intertwine your lives at his inconvenience or expense.

 

 

Many times he wants his cake and eat it to. Meaning he does want a finacial equal partner who has individiual wants and needs yet he wants the cute bubble head who wants to be the little wife. Let's be honest here....most people want it "all".

 

I'd love a man with a great income....I'd love a man with lots of time on his hands with a proclivity to maintain the house at a reasonable level....I'd love a man who is exciting and fun and loves to go off adventuring and acctive in sports....and I'd love a man who was available to supprot my athletic endeavors and make my lifestyle ore convenient.

 

Unfortunately - that can't be all the same man.....he can't be running the bank and attending to my errands whle I kayak...and sitting in his own solo kayak enjoying the rapids and river with me.

 

That's all your stating here...that he wants you to be his cheerleader, and his support group, and his errand runner and personal shopper..and his sex kitten.

 

If YOU would decide which of those roles you'll hold regularly- and which of those tasks you'll perform occasionally, he'd know what to expect.

 

You can't decide who you are or what role you play - and you want tojump around and have "buyers remorse" about it.

 

 

 

 

He wants the house but does not want to save the money to buy it, but tells himself that is why he is working. It applies beyond a house....but let's use the house specifically. If the man wanted one - he'd have one. He's been told that he should want one, and so he is willing to state he wants one - provided someone else will provide it, clean it, maintain it, and attend it.

 

That's what happens when people buy into ocnventional definitions vs. personal accountability.

 

they end up with babies,debts, houses, marriages, and everything else that really is not what they want...they were told to wnat it, taught to want it, expected to want it, and rebuffed and chided for not having it - so they "complied" - and now it's more work than they want to put out, it's more money than they want to spend on this aspect of life, and it's more trouble than it's worth in terms of enjoyment.

 

What people want...they have, or they're actively pursuing with a realistic plan and timeframe on accrual.

 

Everything else they "claim" it's what they've told they should want......and they'd "take" provided osmeone else does all the work and expense.

 

 

 

He wants to spend time with me (really just have me around) but then goes and plays video games for 2 hours without me even being in the same room. But his idea of 'great relationship" - might be having someone around in case he wants or need somethng, rather like a pet and having something alive in the house that loves you unconditionally.

 

Have you ever asked him what his ideal relationship looks, sounds, smells, tasks, feels, and manifests itself like? More importantly - have you ever asked yourself that and answered it honestly?

[darkpumpkin]

the idea that he can't have a motorcycle until the house/family/ring on your finger etc. exists is one of a dysfunctional reasoning nature, it appears.

 

It was just a joke, a little joke. I've told him that is all it is, go get a bike if thats what your heart desires. It's his money he can spend it on whatever he wishes. I have made that clear to him.

 

Again, i thnk it was a joke originally wasn't it "you can't have a motorcycle until you ask me to marry you"...and it's progressed from that to until we're married, have a house and children...this is the carrot that is being used to spur the donkey into motion....while it never gets the carrot.

 

 

At times its what I thought he wanted me to say "you can't" in face he's told me he likes it.

 

 

I also expressed my standpoint of living together, that I do not want to just live with a man and that I want to take this plunge for 6 months and then I will need to re-evaluate our relationship if we have not moved to the next step. Before I respond to it -i need some clarification.

 

Really I'm doing what my parents wish for me to do. Get married BEFORE moving in with someone. I could care less, I would rather take the risk deal with what happens and learn and move forward. The older I get the more I realize that I'm not sure I want the idea of marriage. I want a companion, that is what is important to me.

 

What you're proposing is to move into his home, become intregral to his daily life in terms of conveniences and options - and then you want to rip the rug out from under that in 6 months IF HE WON'T MARRY YOU.

 

Most bassackwards denial based utlimatum I"ve heard in awhile - LOL.

 

^ yikes, never thought about it that way. No wonder he took it that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It applies beyond a house....but let's use the house specifically. If the man wanted one - he'd have one. He's been told that he should want one, and so he is willing to state he wants one - provided someone else will provide it, clean it, maintain it, and attend it.

 

That's what happens when people buy into ocnventional definitions vs. personal accountability.

 

they end up with babies,debts, houses, marriages, and everything else that really is not what they want...they were told to wnat it, taught to want it, expected to want it, and rebuffed and chided for not having it - so they "complied" - and now it's more work than they want to put out, it's more money than they want to spend on this aspect of life, and it's more trouble than it's worth in terms of enjoyment.

 

What people want...they have, or they're actively pursuing with a realistic plan and timeframe on accrual.

 

Everything else they "claim" it's what they've told they should want......and they'd "take" provided osmeone else does all the work and expense.

 

We both do this to the extreme at times. Do things or claim we want something because its what we have been taught to want or to expect. Instead of going with our individual wants and needs and obtaining that.

 

Have you ever asked him what his ideal relationship looks, sounds, smells, tasks, feels, and manifests itself like? More importantly - have you ever asked yourself that and answered it honestly?

 

I know he wants someone who will take care of him and support him. Be there when he needs it. I know I want a companion, someone to go through life with who can independtly take care of themselves without my help but would prefer to be taken care of.

[Excalibur]

At times its what I thought he wanted me to say "you can't" in face he's told me he likes it.

 

Here's possibly what you're experiencing...sometimes when he hears you say "You can't" - he hears you plaintively begging "please don't, it doesn't meet my needs, and you're all I want'.

 

That's very likely some version of his interpretation early in dating of "you can't".

 

"But......you CAN'T" wasn't issued as a statement of fact, it was stated as a plea for his time and his attention "but you "can't" go out of town THIS weekend, I so much wanted to see you". Whether you said it- it's likely some level of the interpretation he had on it.

 

Now that the infatuation has faded, he hears "you can't" - as more of an order, or demand...not so much a plea for his attention because you want his attention...but a command that his time and money are not his own, and his life is not his to command, because you're in it.

 

That would explain why he resents the no driving, etc....now.

 

At the time, he was being the knight i shining armor and I love you was the message he was geting - and now it's becoming a task and chore and association with you demands it.

[Excalibur]

I know he wants someone who will take care of him and support him. Be there when he needs it. Okay - this is me telling you waht i hear - to see if I am wrong. I hear you saying he wants someone by his side, who has his back at all times....butin relaity he only "plays" with them face to face, when it suits his agenda and his needs.

 

He needs someone he can rely on not to overspend, have affairs, make more babies than agreed to with him.......because he's not going to be in constant contact and involvement - he's going to be off pursuing his job, etc. etc. etc.

 

when he wants to take a vacation - he'll do it with you - but when he wants to spend downtime in daily life - he might or might not spend it with you.

 

Is that what you're stating you beileve he wants as an ideal relationship?

 

 

 

I know I want a companion, someone to go through life with who can independtly take care of themselves without my help but would prefer to be taken care of.

I'd have to know what you mean by "taken care of". The more you combine your lifestyles- finances and liability - the more details there will be to attend to the more jobs and taks and chores there will be to complete. So you're looking to be the woman that keeps his house spotless while he's out, takes care of and raises the children when he's out on business, you want to be "necessary" to the lifestyle he creates that he can' maintain in terms of a time management in ilght of his job priorities - without you.

 

So why can't you two get along and work it out - you both want the same thing if this is correct.

[darkpumpkin]

yes, we do. his wants personally and my wants personally they co-exsist and lately I have been tired and stressed out at work and my life in general. People telling me what I should do and knowing what I want to do is not the same. He hasn't had more then a day or two every month off for the last 5 months. He's tired and worn down and physically run down. He also has me who when the infatuaction was taken away became needy and overbearing because he wasn't making Me feel good any longer.

 

But all these things you discussed really made me see the reality of the situation. Not just the over emotional end of it.

[Excalibur]

You can't possible choose someone for who they are - until you are who you want to be.

 

If you'd be fine with living with him, while evaluating and creating yoursel f- if it didn't work out in a few years you'd be all right, he'd have been well served, as would you.

 

But the ideal that there is one right move and one wrong move in life it's not how it is.

 

Really, you can turn anything that occurs into something positive - if you're committed to it.

 

The three BEST things in life that I ever created as negative situations were becoming an alcoholic, losing a specific race in 1998, and marrying the man that i used to claim "drove me into the bottle".

 

When i required those "worst things" to define me - I had to escape. When I allowed them to allow me insight into me - they became the BEST things I'd ever done or been in.........and learning form them allowed me to not repeat and get out, etc.

[darkpumpkin]

I want to thank you very much. You have opened up many issues with myself and how I conduct myself in relationships.

[Excalibur]

Everything in life can teach you about you - that's the purpose of life. It's not to teach you about other people.

[darkpumpkin]

And I always thought it was the opposite.

[Excalibur]

How well you know yourself - is the means and method by whichh you know other people.

 

When you don't know what you want, believe, stand for, value, priiortiize, or want to accomplish - all you can do is interact with people as they present, in the moment they're present.