volpe Posted May 5, 2008 Author Share Posted May 5, 2008 yeah, but i don't want to call him at this point, since i wrote the last email... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annie24 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 i didn't say anything about the myspace... i'm leaving that part out. i can fish for that info later. i mean, i can't make any assumptions about that, but he said to me that he was interested in getting to know me without sex, so that's good, right? we are discussing the fast moves... ok, but is he asking you out on dates... or just chatting? if a guy isn't asking you out on real dates (and not just come over to his place to watch a dvd), then i wouldn't read anything into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 5, 2008 Author Share Posted May 5, 2008 we aren't talking about the dates right now. we are talking about where we are at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annie24 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 we aren't talking about the dates right now. we are talking about where we are at. huh?!?!?!?!!?? this is so confusing. dating is about getting to know one another. how are you talking about 'where you are at' if you aren't dating? i usually don't talk about 'where i am at with a guy' until we've been dating for a month at least. unless you just mean he is saying he's at the club, and you are at home, and that's where you're at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annie24 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 imho, i try to avoid talking to a guy i am not yet officially dating more than once a day. 1 email, 1 phone call, a day, max. if you are too easily reachable by im, email, text message, what incentive does he have to ask you on a date and see you in person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 imho, i try to avoid talking to a guy i am not yet officially dating more than once a day. 1 email, 1 phone call, a day, max. if you are too easily reachable by im, email, text message, what incentive does he have to ask you on a date and see you in person? Very good rule to follow - I do the same. Volpe - probably too late now, but if he confirmed he wants to date you and get to know you as a person all there is to discuss from his end is when he wants to take you out and then plan time and place. Yes, it's possible that your first impression of him was incorrect as far as being self-absorbed. However, don't be surprised if he does the whole "let's talk about it" so he seems "sensitive" and can try to get you back to his place again after forming this "bond." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 5, 2008 Author Share Posted May 5, 2008 no it just happened that i emailed and he wrote back 1 minute later so we ended up going back and forth with the emails since apparently we were both online. like chatting. yeah, i dunno, "where we are at" is in reference more to where we are at in terms of "connecting to the opposite sex", not necessarily with where we are at specifically with each other. basically, i was saying i'm not wanting to see him if he just wants a friends with benefits situation... or even just an either/or situation. either sex or friendship, you get me? like he sounds down to be my "friend" but it's too late now for platonic friendship now that we almost had sex... that's just not gonna happen. really, i was just trying to flesh out, without asking him if he had a girlfriend, if he was "available", which while he made it clear he wanted to get to know me, he didn't make it clear exactly "how", so i'm leaving it alone until he can get clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Usually it's simple - the man asks the lady out for a date he plans in advance and then she can assume he wants to take her on a date. It makes it more complicated when the woman goes to the man's house on the first meeting after he's made sexual references, and hooks up with him. After that it's more difficult to backpedal and claim to want to go out on more traditional dates and get to know each other. I have told men who pressured or were pushy for sex that I am not into flings - in about 5 words, no embellishment, no "talk" no explanation - if he's almost a stranger it's 5 words "I'm not into flings" and only if that is brought up - I don't want to give the (mis)impression that I have that sort of discussion typically. I don't because since, like you, I am not into flings, I avoided men who didn't ask me out on dates but just asked me to hang out and hook up (which rarely happened anyway). Your posts have been confusing as to what you want with this guy - this post assumed you did not want to just hang out and hook up. Sorry if i misread anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 yeah, batya, you are totally right on about everything... i think i just... well, had a hard time, because it seems he is a good, funny, smart, motivated person. i had a hard time resolving that with the fact he was straight up disrespecting me. I spoke with some folks I know out here where I live... said: is this normal behavior? The part they didn't like was that I kept saying "No." and he kept pushing the sex thing. Now, I wish I could take it back when I told him I thought he was "good people". It can be hard for me not to get sort of angry and self-righteous so I need to resolve my feelings about what happened in some way that doesn't leave me feeling bad. I DID enjoy myself, but that wasn't at all what I wanted. I didn't have sex, but I messed around with him and I didn't want to. Part of me wants to give him a lecture about it: hey! don't treat people that way! But I guess us not talking anymore will take care of that. In the emails it was odd, he said "maybe we can try again and be friends" and "maybe i wanted both (in reference to connecting on emotional and physical levels)" and I said, actually you made it all very clear to me that you wanted casual sex, you feel me?... and then he just said some lame thing about yeah, i'm glad we are owning our parts in all this nightynite, and that was it. i wrote him back and said, thank you, i appreciated being heard.... and that was it... so it was odd, perhaps he thought i would be friends with benefits and it became clear i wasn't so he just disappeared... i don't know... all for the best. Still, I wish I could have told him off for not respecting me when I said no... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I think his pushiness was disrespectful. I don't think his fooling around with you was disrespectful in the least - I think it is unfair of you to criticize him for your agreement to be alone with him the first time you went out and to hook up with him. That was 100% your choice to do - I am not criticizing your choice to hook up - just your judgment of him as mistreating you. Being pushy after someone says no is disrespectful -- hooking up with someone who agrees to hook up with you - nothing wrong with that. I also don't think you need to lecture him - he barely knows you and your input is likely to come accross as presumptuous because of that. Just another situation to live and learn from, like we all do! If I am wrong and he forced you to hook up (which doesn't sound like what happened - you said you enjoyed it) then that would be wrong but it sounds like he was pushy, you chose to give in, and now you feel badly about your choice so you're blaming him. As far as him wanting to keep things casual or to be sex buddies, I don't see anything wrong in his thinking - he figures since you agreed to hook up the first time perhaps you would agree again. It's difficult to backpedal and claim to want a relationship after hooking up at someone's house the first time. Not impossible at all - but far more difficult. It's better to start out with the impression you want to give - in your case you wanted to get to know him by dating - than have to backpedal after a first misimpression. goodluck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 well, no batya, the point i'm making is that... i kept telling him no the whole night and he was pushy the whole night. he even tried to pull my pants down to put his penis in, and I had to pull my pants back up. that's what i mean... it actually kind of reminded me of when a guy forced himself on me before, it was very similar. and if i hadn't been so sure that was what i didn't want, then i could have ended up having sex with him and regretting it so much the next day. i'm glad i kept my head straight (SOOOOO glad). but i still think it's messed up that i had to keep saying no, no, no, no the whole night. it wasn't like i just said no at the beginning and gave in. i kept having to move his hands away and keep his penis out of my pants the whole night. what i just kept in my mind was that it's ALWAYS o.k. for me to say no. I can do whatever I want and still say no, and I did. But did I have to say it so many times? i did enjoy it, but i've had other cases where guys have forced themselves on me, and at a certain level i enjoyed it, even though they had totally disrespected me. it's my responsibility (one time it really wasn't-- and that was a very scary experience). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady00 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I'm glad you're not going to see this guy again...he doesn't sound like a good guy. Most guys, however, are good and decent and would respect a girl who said no and just let it go. I think in the future, though, you should avoid being alone with me whom you do not know well. Wait until you've been dating someone for some time and you feel you can trust them before going home with them. I had an experience like that once and I've learned from it--you can't trust that people you barely know will respect your boundaries. Most guys I have been with alone showed me the utmost respect in terms of the boundaries I set but I always waited until I trusted them enough to know that that is how they would act. I slipped up one time and I realized you do have to be really, really careful. Have you sought counseling? I have to say, I was disturbed by the part where you said you enjoyed these experiences "at a certain level"--I don't understand...why? It doesn't sound like a healthy reaction to me. Maybe you should talk to someone about it, someone who has professional training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 8, 2008 Author Share Posted May 8, 2008 i don't think it's Totally abnormal, i was just chatting online with a friend of mine, but maybe she has problems too! she totally felt the same way... basically, it's like... i sort of give in, partly because i like how it feels, but mostly because i'm already there and if i said no how would i say no? like, push him off? like get up and walk away? i liked him and wanted to get to know him, and that thought in my head wasn't gone yet, do you know what i mean... so he was pressuring me, i didn't want to do all that, yet at the same time it felt good to be physical. i would have been much happier just cuddling. there was a time a guy pressured me to have sex, pulled the car over while i was slightly tipsy and we started to make out, he basically did it without a condom when i said no several times... i guess, i don't know... like i wanted to have sex, but i wanted to have safe sex. it really scared me afterwards, but i admit, immediately afterwards, i felt like it was normal or something... it took me a while to realize that it wasn't right what he did. it really scared me a lot. i don't know... i look back at that experience with some confusion. i even met up with him one more time after that... but that was when i was way younger and didn't have any experience or understanding of men at all. now, i would NEVER let that happen again. no guy ever gets near me without wrapping it up. EVER. later he would come by where i worked and tell me i looked good and wanted to see me again and i just ignored him. i don't know if what i'm saying makes sense... i think what it is -- it's a desire to be loved, to be wanted, and then the person is throwing this other energy at you of wanting to have sex, and you don't really know what to do... it's unexpected. and then afterwards, i'm left to wonder, was it some vibe i put out there that made it seem o.k.? but yeah, i really DO need to be more careful about who i trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady00 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 there was a time a guy pressured me to have sex, pulled the car over while i was slightly tipsy and we started to make out, he basically did it without a condom when i said no several times... That is rape. Not only can you not legally give consent when you're under the influence, but you also said no several times. and then afterwards, i'm left to wonder, was it some vibe i put out there that made it seem o.k.? Nothing makes it OK. It is not your fault for "putting out a vibe." You said no. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make out while at the same time not wanting to have unprotected sex. You set your boundaries and he ignored them. You didn't do anything to make it seem OK because it is never OK. but yeah, i really DO need to be more careful about who i trust. Yes--you do have control over how careful you are, but even if you are not as careful as you should be, it still does not in any way shape or form "make it seem OK" for a guy to force something on you that you do not want. Going back to someone's place, making out with them, doing all kinds of acts with them does not give them the go-ahead to have sex with you unless you agree to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 lady00 gave you some great advice. I'm puzzled and troubled that you would want to keep in touch with, much less continue to see a man, who you say tried to force himself on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 yeah, i guess that's the part that confuses me... why did i do that? perhaps cause i said no and he did it anyways, but i didn't push him off? and then just accepted it as though it was o.k.... i was confused because, well... i didn't have much experience at all with men. i have a hard time calling it rape cause even though i said no i didn't fight him off.... even though i do actually counsel women about these things and ask them "have you ever had sex when you didn't want to" and it falls into this category. i guess it's just different when it is someone else besides myself... it's like i... i guess i minimize my own experiences and feel like i should just be able to deal... and that i suppose is why with this guy it reminded me so much of when that happened. it brought up that experience back in 2001 for the first time in a long time. it was similar in the sense i was attracted and did participate to some extent in getting physical. i said no many times but then still allowed things to go forward. this time it is different of course, because i was much more forceful about saying no (pushing him away from me) and he didn't try to keep going. i think when i was younger, i didn't have enough security or understanding about what was going on to do that. but it reminds me also cause this guy wasn't wearing a condom either and i didn't even see one around and it left me to wonder, if i hadn't resisted, would he have wanted to have unprotected sex on a first date? i mean, it sounds totally insane, but he shouldn't have even tried to rub on me without wrapping it up, when he tried to pull my pants down he wasn't even wearing a condom. it's just weird. and yeah, it does bother me that i didn't have proper perspective to do what was right for me. i wish i'de not gone over there, and then i wish that i'de just said i would walk home and left. and then i wish that i just totally never spoke to him again and just left him to wonder what happened. it's one of those things, i guess, i really do need to figure this out for me... it makes me sad really, a little bit heart broken. in the end, all i really do want is to love someone. and to be loved. i'm not feeling sad about this guy, i'm over him (no more rose colored glasses), but i definitely am trying to understand my own thought process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 If all you want is to love someone and be loved, that's not an "all you want' that's a tall order, it requires self-love, self-esteem, self-awareness, self-honesty and self-respect (some of which overlap). You can accomplish this but it will take effort and work - I think you know the work and effort is worth it - it's fine to have a little "pity party" after you feel you've made another mistake but once that is over - (very soon!) then the work begins so you don't fall into the pattern of making a mistake and then feeling victimized. In this case I agree it's not entirely clear whether he forced you, etc. - but since you now say he did not, then why not be good to yourself and rather than focusing on being a victim, focus on putting in the work and effort. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 9, 2008 Author Share Posted May 9, 2008 No, I am not having a pity party Batya, though I understand where you are coming from. I'm over the specific situation with the dude, just wish that it hadn't happened that all... just wish I could take the whole thing back. I know I am not a victim. All I was drawing were the parallels between two different experiences I've had at two different times in my life. It demonstrates for me, I suppose, how I've changed in some ways (know how to stop things where it's too far) and how I've not changed in other ways (not recognizing right away that what happened wasn't normal, and still letting things go further than I want). That's all. I am also recognizing that whether or not he is a good guy outside of that situation that happened, what he did WAS wrong. He didn't force me, but he did play along the fence. He should have been making sure I was o.k. with what he did. That is the point I'm making. He shouldn't have been trying to rub his unprotected penis against me without asking me or making sure I was o.k. with that. In that sense, I do feel victimized. It's a pretty gross thing to have some guys precum on your skin without you consenting to that. I once read a pamphlet on these things, called "support" about rape victims and how can their sexual partners be supportive. It also said that people should assume their partners have been raped or molested because it is so common, and that people should be sure that they are not violating other people. Here is an excerpt from a website: Consent, Not Coercion - A males’s guide to non-assaultive relationships * DO NOT try to coerce or talk her into sexual contact. If she says “no” or is reluctant, do not coerce her with “You would do it if you loved me,” or “Everybody else is doing it, what’s wrong with you?” If you pressure her and her choice is not freely given, you may have broken the law, you may have raped her. * DO get consent: “Is it okay to touch you this way?” “How do you feel about this?” “Do you want to have sexual contact?” Only by hearing a clearly-spoken and freely-given “yes” can you be sure you’re not committing an assault. * DO NOT “listen” to body language. A smile, a look, or an awkward silence can easily be misunderstood. Just because you may want sexual contact, don’t assume that she also does. It may lead you to do something to her that she doesn’t want and hasn’t consented to. * DO verbally communicate early and often. Talk. Demonstrate your desire to hear her thoughts and feelings and have respect for what she wants. Enjoy sharing openly and honestly. * DO NOT have sex as a goal. Some males make dating a game that can turn into a seek and destroy mission, where the male may achieve a “victory” while the female may feel sad, lonely or powerless. * DO have friendship as a goal. Think of someone to whom you are attracted or in whom you’re interested. Only if you have respect for each other can you share a closeness where you both feel totally comfortable and share with each other your deepest secrets, dreams and wants. This is the intimacy that gives both people true power and the strength of respect, caring and happiness. AND, guidelines for myself to be more careful about: Dating Rights and Responsibilities * Say “no” when you mean “no.” If you don’t mean no, don’t say it. * Be clear, honest and consistent in your communications about all sexual contact. * Trust your instincts. If you have any hesitations, pay particular attention to situations that make you uncomfortable and think of ways to decrease potential problems. * Be direct. Nonverbal behaviors or actions are open to misinterpretation. This does not mean it is your fault if you are assaulted. * Avoid the use of alcohol and/or other mood altering drugs. * Understand that forced sex is never acceptable; it is against the law. * Know the difference between desire and action. Being sexually aroused doesn’t give anyone permission to force sex on another. * Be responsible for your own actions and sexual limits; they are your responsibility. * Realize that dating someone for a long time, spending money on someone or previous sexual intimacy do not obligate you to have sex. * Don’t make assumptions. Just because your date welcomes some sexual contact does not mean she or he wants other types of contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batya33 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Sounds like you're on the right path! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady00 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 This stuff is really good. You sound like you're very introspective about this, which is good. We all make mistakes. Good on you for recognizing them and learning from them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 10, 2008 Author Share Posted May 10, 2008 hey lady00 and batya... I've been reading about date rape this morning because I started to think about the experience I had with the guy I mentioned before and Lady00 you said it was rape and I never did. So as I perused, I realized that it really was rape (not the guy the original posting was about, but the one he reminded me of) and that actually my response to it was not unusual. That some women DO continue to date their assailant and as such continue to be abused. With that particular man, I went on two more dates and he continued to do things to me that I did not want, including unprotected anal that made me tear and bleed and I was soooooo afraid of having HIV. I was sooooo LUCKY because I screened negative. I was even luckier because when I finally did seek medical help (I was not in the country, and my friend came to visit me who informed me I should) they told me that they couldn't screen me for STDs because it was too late. They did give me an HIV test which was negative. It wasn't until a year later that I got all my testing-- luckily all negative. After the fact, I had some high risk behaviors, until I finally landed myself in a relationship which was more supportive. It makes me sad to think about it actually... kind of painful because it was 7 years ago and it's taken me that long to see it for what it was. At the same time, it makes so much sense when I look back at it, why at a certain point after it happened I felt like killing myself. This is the website: link removed And I also realized as I read several websites, that this guy goes under the category of sexual assault/unwanted sexual contact, in the sense I made my boundaries clear and he violated them multiple times. I also read about the way the victim can get blamed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volpe Posted May 10, 2008 Author Share Posted May 10, 2008 lady00 are you from australia or new zealand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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