Do you always wait for the guys to ask you out on a 2nd date?

[cranberrymuffin]

I couldn't disagree more Batya. Just to add my opinion. I rarely post on here but this just sounds so inaccurate in an intuitive way. So then I must ask, are there any good sociological or psychological studies that support this idea as being absolutely legitimate for the majority?

 

I think if it is always one person on either side doing all of the asking the other might wonder what level the non asking person is interested so it can affect the relationship in that sense. But both can ask as a give and take equally and as they see fit. And if they are both interested they both will keep asking.

 

Let's say two people did ask equally or the woman asked slightly more, can you explain exactly why/how in a more detailed way the manner you feel this can affect the longevity of their relationship?

 

Thanks.

[wayoverit]

I couldn't disagree more Batya. Just to add my opinion. I rarely post on here but this just sounds so inaccurate in an intuitive way. So then I must ask, are there any good sociological or psychological studies that support this idea as being absolutely legitimate for the majority?

 

Society has deemed the man as the hunter and woman as the nurturer. At least that is what I have witnessed all my life. Intuitively speaking, who is the aggressor in relationship. A man will pyschologically lose his maniless, deemed by society, if he is not allowed to do what he is supposed to do - making that phonecall for 2nd date. There's no denial that a man expect a woman to be a notch down from him.

 

 

I think if it is always one person on either side doing all of the asking the other might wonder what level the non asking person is interested so it can affect the relationship in that sense. But both can ask as a give and take equally and as they see fit. And if they are both interested they both will keep asking.

 

Such an idealistic scenerio disregards the difference between a man and a woman. There is a fundamental difference in expectations.

 

Let's say two people did ask equally or the woman asked slightly more, can you explain exactly why/how in a more detailed way the manner you feel this can affect the longevity of their relationship?

 

There's no telling the longevity of a relationship. All we're saying is, let the man do their thing for a 2nd date because the result is much better. No man is afraid to ask for a 2nd date if he's really interested. You can trust me on that one. You can be more equal later on 3rd or 4th dates, but better to wait for his call on 2nd.

[Batya33]

I never said it was legitimate. In fact I think I said it wasn't fair - it would have been far easier for me to be able to ask men out, call them -- I didn't find it too difficult but it was ineffective.

 

My point is not whether it's legitimate or not - my point is that when a woman over 25 or so asks me whether it is a good idea to ask a man out for a first or second or third date, I say there's nothing wrong with it of course, it's just generally ineffective if the woman is looking for a serious relationship. With exceptions of course.

 

Honestly, I don't much care why this is, I just know that it is true in my experience and indirect experience and I suppose that the poster's analysis above mine is roughly accurate. I might use different words but I would think it is because most men over 25 or so feel most comfortable when they are the ones who are initiating more of the calling/asking especially in the beginning of a relationship. Many might say they love being asked out, they love a woman who does more of the asking, planning, calling but in my experience that is not the woman they're going to choose for a long term relationship.

 

I choose my battles - if I see an injustice or something unfair it bothers me, of course - but I have to choose my battles. I'm not really interested in battling this sexist situation of who does more of the asking, male/female roles.

 

Not because it doesn't impact me - since i am someone who would have asked more men out if it were effective, it impacted me because I "waited" to be asked much of the time (in the early stages of dating) - but because I see other injustices that are far worse and far more worthy of my spending my time and effort trying to change or correct.

 

As far as the woman's level of interest - she shows it in different ways - he calls more, he asks more - in the beginning - she accepts with enthusiasm, shows appreciation while on the date, perhaps she picks up a CD for him he mentioned he likes, or helps him with his resume, does a mock interview with him if he is looking for a new job, etc.(of course he can do those things for her also, but I am just saying that asking out is only one way of showing interest).

[Crazyaboutdogs]

Society has deemed the man as the hunter and woman as the nurturer. At least that is what I have witnessed all my life. Intuitively speaking, who is the aggressor in relationship. A man will pyschologically lose his maniless, deemed by society, if he is not allowed to do what he is supposed to do - making that phonecall for 2nd date. There's no denial that a man expect a woman to be a notch down from him.

 

ROFLMAO!! I am thinking "me Tarzan, You Jane". I think I prefer my men more highly evolved!

[Batya33]

ROFLMAO!! I am thinking "me Tarzan, You Jane". I think I prefer my men more highly evolved!

 

LOL - me too! At least vary it with a french maid uniform once in awhile (yes for the woman, not the man)

[Crazyaboutdogs]

LOL - me too! At least vary it with a french maid uniform once in awhile (yes for the woman, not the man)

 

I now have a mental picture of a cross-dressing Tarzan in a French maid's uniform!!

[Batya33]

I now have a mental picture of a cross-dressing Tarzan in a French maid's uniform!!

 

LOL. I promise you, if I ever meet someone like that I won't just ask him out I will drag him back to my lair by the ruffles.

[Maya_A]

ROFLMAO!! I am thinking "me Tarzan, You Jane". I think I prefer my men more highly evolved!

 

Hehehe... I "ditto" the above...

[cranberrymuffin]

Honestly, I don't much care why this is,

 

I can't understand why you would be so adamant about this stance and then say you don't care to look into the reasons behind why it might affect relationships negatively. The "why" is the whole point. Examining reasons behind it would lead back to how accurate/not it is. I don't believe it is accurate at all.

 

It's like when you ask someone to explain in detail why/how an urban legend works or can be true. They can't, and then you see the realization on their faces at that moment they realize it likely logically isn't true.

 

I know you keep saying 'in your experience', and maybe a group of those you know, but there are billions of people out there. Your "case study" would have to be a lot larger. For sure there are those books out there that would say this is so (as well as opposing) but there are books that put out all kinds of nonsense.

 

If a woman wants to ask a man on a second date, for goodness sakes' just ask without worrying it will affect his interest. If he's interested he is interested and will say yes. I can't imagine him thinking "darn, I was really interested in her but since she asked to see me again this is a red flag so kibosh that one". And he will likely ask her on the next after if he is interested still after the second date, so it's really a non point. If she wants to ask him on the 4th then she should go for it, too!

 

I think it's called conscious evolution where we can stop playing games and needing our ego's stroked (i.e. men who need to be the askers) and just communicate honestly.

[Batya33]

Oh I meant I didn't care why in the narrow context of someone asking me from a logistical perspective what to do if she wants a serious relationship and she's had one date with the guy.

 

And as I wrote I don't much care why because I prefer to work on other injustices I see -- this level of "injustice" where the man does more of the asking in the beginning of dating - doesn't seem so awful to me that I should prioritize it over other injustices. It's a personal choice.

 

Also, from a practical perspective, I chose to have healthy relationships and put up with this traditional/sometimes sexist approach rather than be the "renegade" and insist that I wouldn't go out with a man who was the least bit turned off by me doing more of the asking, planning or calling.

 

I like the traditional man/woman aspects of relationships to an extent, and those men who are more comfortable doing more of the asking and planning are not too traditional or sexist for me -- indeed the men I've been involved with seriously were not sexist to any extent I could tell - perhaps a feminist would have thought differently, but I'm not a feminist. I am most comfortable with men who are comfortable and enjoy holding doors for me, helping me on with my coat, helping me into a chair, opening my car door first, all of that chivalrous stuff. To me it's not sexist, to someone else it might be. We all have our lines that we draw.

 

I don't just base it on my experience with hundreds of people over many years and today - in the late 20s and up age group. I also base it on everything I've read, heard and observe - so perhaps that goes into the thousands, I don't know.

 

And when I give this strategic input I always qualify it with exceptions. One huge exception if that a woman is turned on by a guy who is more passive, who craves a relationship where the woman will do more of the asking and planning in the beginning, then obviously what I advise wouldn't work for her. I don't know of any women like that.

 

Not surprisingly, many tend to agree with me that this is how it still works, that it's ok if not the best situation, and even if they don't agree often they come around to it. But my point is not to be 'right" - it's to give effective advice to a woman who wants to build a relationship with a man she recently met. I'd be giving bad advice if I advised that it would be just as effective if she did more of the asking or planning or "did what she felt like." Because, I don't know about many others, but when I am really interested in a guy, I get smitten, I get insecure and what "feels right" in that context would be to be in constant contact. But that's not the typical "me" that's the "ooh I'm smitten, he's perfect, our children's names will be ____" me.

 

I've encountered many men who really liked a woman they met but when she started calling him and asking him out for a first or second or third date, and being the one to do more of the planning, they started to feel turned off. I've heard the "um I like her and it's sooo flattering that she calls me and asks me out - that's so cool! --- but I feel like telling her to let up a bit, I don't know, but she's so cool" - the "she's so cool" doesn't carry the day as far as a relationship.

 

Those initial dates are fragile - people can be really into each other one day, change their minds the next. It may not be a red flag when the woman does that but it can be a turn off. I don't see the point in risking that unless the woman would rather be with a man who was turned on by that rather than turned off. If she is over 25 or 27 or so that will probably limit the dating pool quite a bit - which is fine, of course but more women than not say "well it's the 21st century of course I should be able to ask him out as much as he asks me after we meet" but what they mean is not that all of a sudden they want this power, they usually mean "well I wish he would call me, step up to the plate and ask me out and he's not, so I'll settle for calling him and justify it with, it's the 21st century." The problem with that is the woman ends up feeling uncomfortable and resentful and in self-denial. Just my twenty cents and my experience.

[cranberrymuffin]

Honestly, I don't much care why this is, I just know that it is true in my experience

-------------------------------

Oh I meant I didn't care why in the narrow context of someone asking me from a logistical perspective what to do if she wants a serious relationship and she's had one date with the guy.

 

It didn't seem like you meant that, Bayta, & this is a compliment of sorts, you are excellent at intellectualizing & where one can intellectualize anything as a counter-point I think many get lost in that. But like minds follow it easily It seems more like you were out and out saying you didn't care why generally, not in terms of this forum and giving your suggestion. However, that isn't the point, I just think it's interesting.

 

I don't just base it on my experience with hundreds of people over many years and today - in the late 20s and up age group. I also base it on everything I've read, heard and observe - so perhaps that goes into the thousands, I don't know.

 

This is weak in terms of any sort of proof or value to legitimacy as humanity is notorious for following faulty concepts in a conforming, robotic way. Humanity creates stereotypes and they become solidified over time. Then, most people think they are just "right". Many times the stereotypes are not in the best interest of humans at all, nor even accurate.

 

Also, unless there are proper studies to clearly support, whatever your experience is doesn't really hold. For example, if people are telling you one thing about their experience it is really only their view, riddled with their biases and perhaps stereotypical unconscious influences.

 

And I have to say for the record, I've heard very many of the opposing views on the same as well, and have seen relationships work just fine longer term where the woman equally pursued or initiated on the second outing, which was OP's question. I'm not talking about exceptions, I know you noted these, I'm talking about pretty common occurrences.

 

It seems that more conscious inclined people do not have these egoic concerns and just relate authentically. They seem to be more rare compared to the masses so this may seem why the idea of the male being "allowed" to ask and the female "conceding" to this even though she has a mind of her own and might like to ask, seems more pervasive. And when something seems accepted more, I think it can get confused as being "right", more effective, or accurate, when it is not any of the former.

 

but more women than not say "well it's the 21st century of course I should be able to ask him out as much as he asks me after we meet" but what they mean is not that all of a sudden they want this power, they usually mean "well I wish he would call me, step up to the plate and ask me out and he's not, so I'll settle for calling him and justify it with, it's the 21st century." The problem with that is the woman ends up feeling uncomfortable and resentful and in self-denial.

 

That is extremely presumptuous. I know if I (& many women in my circles) call a guy it is not because I'm waiting on him, it is because I want to spend some more time with him to get to know him.

 

It is also double standard thinking. Why is the male wanting to do the asking not deemed as a deficit in something within him emotionally by the same token then? Instead, the view seems to be "let the man be what he needs to be", and this is okay/healthy.

 

It is also faulty in that the whole stereotype may cause more harm. Maybe a woman who wanted to call for a second date would not, going against her intuition and solely based on this "rule". This is sure to cause her some emotional discomfort in having to play this game. On the other side of the coin we might have a given man with a more evolved attitude get the wrong idea she isn't interested because she hasn't called! So they are both suffering from silly stereotypes.

 

To OP and all women, if you start things off with games you continue with games on through. Do away with game playing or trying to manouever a potential relationship like some sort of chess game. Relate what is on your mind openly and honestly. A guy that will be a good conscious match for you will "get it" and you are more likely to live "happily ever after" in general as the entire relationship and way of communication will keep reflecting honest, conscious communication as it began with.

[jraf]

I like the traditional man/woman aspects of relationships to an extent, and those men who are more comfortable doing more of the asking and planning are not too traditional or sexist for me -- indeed the men I've been involved with seriously were not sexist to any extent I could tell - perhaps a feminist would have thought differently, but I'm not a feminist. I am most comfortable with men who are comfortable and enjoy holding doors for me, helping me on with my coat, helping me into a chair, opening my car door first, all of that chivalrous stuff. To me it's not sexist, to someone else it might be. We all have our lines that we draw.

 

You may like the traditional man/woman aspects of relationships; but in case you haven't noticed, those have changed:

Women can now vote

Get an education

Enjoy a career in all fields of endeavour

Make decisions

Run organizations large and small

Do math

Almost get paid the same as a man for the same work

Many women (and men) have worked long and hard to make this happen just as they have to eradicate inequities based on race, religion, sexual orientation...

 

These changes have affected all relationships between sexes, races, religions, etc. You can't have it both ways in an equal world if you want to fully enjoy that world. I was raised to open doors for women, offer them my seat, etc., even though my mother was a career professional and a very capable strong person. Today when I arrive at a front door (to a business, store, restaurant, even elevator) at the same time as an unrelated woman it seems that, about 50% of the time she will reach the handle before me and hold the door allowing me to enter first. The other 50% of the time it is me doing the opening and holding. It's very simple actually. So I suppose, should you and I happen to be at the front door, even though you were a few steps ahead of me, you'd just wait for me to open it for you?

 

If you want something, then go for it. If you don't want something then sit back. If you want something and sit back, you may or may not get it, but don't complain about the choices you make.

When you want a job you have to apply for it.

When you want an education you have to apply for it.

When you want a man he has to ask you

 

I'd be giving bad advice if I advised that it would be just as effective if she did more of the asking or planning or "did what she felt like."

 

I've encountered many men who really liked a woman they met but when she started calling him and asking him out for a first or second or third date, and being the one to do more of the planning, they started to feel turned off. I've heard the "um I like her and it's sooo flattering that she calls me and asks me out - that's so cool! --- but I feel like telling her to let up a bit, I don't know, but she's so cool" - the "she's so cool" doesn't carry the day as far as a relationship.

 

I don't know whether to categorize the above as bs or wishful thinking.

I definitely think that any advice you have would be bad.

The guy you refer to above is probably acting like many act when pursued by someone WITH WHOM THEY DON'T ACTUALLY CARE TO BE INVOLVED. He's trying to be polite even though he should just tell the truth. The fact that she contacted him is not the issue; the fact that he isn't really interested is the issue.

[itsallgrand]

You gotta do what you gotta do.

 

Me - if the situation calls for it, I'll do the asking. I don't wait unless it seems appropriate.

 

Batya does have a point. If it's a big enough issue for you to stand firm on, there will be a price to pay for that.

 

Me - I'm willing to pay it. Simply because, my personality and the types of men that are attractive to me/are going to be any sort of good match for the future ....if this scares them off, it wouldn't have worked anyways.

 

Men taking my coat, and all those traditional "nicities" turn me off, more often than not, or are tolerated...not to mention dealing with a more traditional mindset and values in a male...just doesn't work for me.

 

So you consider what is right for YOU, and go with that.

[jraf]

Me - if the situation calls for it, I'll do the asking. I don't wait unless it seems appropriate.

 

Me - I'm willing to pay it. Simply because, my personality and the types of men that are attractive to me/are going to be any sort of good match for the future ....if this scares them off, it wouldn't have worked anyways.

 

This is a good attitude; simple, easy, straightforward, honest, angst free, clear...just the way it should be.

 

Men taking my coat, and all those traditional "nicities" turn me off, more often than not, or are tolerated...

 

Hopefully you act differently then my daughter #2 who has no compunction about climbing down your throat when someone initiates one of these "nicities". I've told her many times that a simple and easy "I prefer to do this myself" is really all she needs to say, but I'm only her father...

 

So you consider what is right for YOU, and go with that.

 

Bingo! (But don't complain about the results of whatever you chose to do)

[itsallgrand]

LOL. Well, I USED to be guilty as your daughter, but learned better now.

 

To each their own. Most people are truly just trying to do the right thing, and to be nice.

 

Don't want to be one of those people who sets out to prove "no good deed goes unpunished" cliche.

[Maya_A]

Jraf wrote: The fact that she contacted him is not the issue; the fact that he isn't really interested is the issue.

^^^

Yes times 1 million. I always write out these drawn out things (my priors on it) and then someone comes along & puts it all so neatly into one sentence lol....

 

CranM - you are my soul twin re. your ideas on this one matter!

[Batya33]

I see issues concerning equality in my work life as distinct from "equality" in my romantic personal life. I believe people should be paid equally for equal work without regard to gender, race, ethnicity.

 

I am perfectly comfortable being an independent person with a career and a person who is comfortable with a man being chivalrous and, in the beginning stages of dating, doing more of the calling and planning.

 

In all my serious and even less serious relationships the men have been comfortable in that role as well as admiring and supportive of my career and independence, including financial independence. Most would not have been interested in dating me if I wasn't an ambitious, educated person with a career.

 

If a man wasn't comfortable asking me out on dates when we were first getting to know each other and wanted me to do more of the asking I wouldn't see a problem with that all else being equal (meaning, he was interested in dating me). I've never met anyone like that.

 

I have met many men who were interested in a lady until she started doing more of the asking out and calling. That typically effected the level of interest in the beginning of getting to know her -- in a negative way. Contacting to ask out on a second date - not a big deal, but not a positive either. Doing more of the contacting in the beginning - not a great idea if the goal is a relationship. Fine idea if the idea is more of a fling or just some fun casual dating.

 

As I wrote here and many other times, I am referring to the over 25 set. Perhaps in the under 25 set it is common for women and men to ask each other out equally from day one. Not true of the under 25-ers I know but I don't know enough of that age group or know of that age group enough to say either way. If it is changing, that's great -- it would have made things much easier in my dating life if it had been that way.