At what age does being a PUA get creepy?

[Dating Coach]

Seems to be that Diggity, for example, employed these methods, and he's now in a great relationship. Good for him. Hey, I'm single right now... he's has an SO. ... so he must be doing something right.

 

 

I never used Mystery, never read his books. I met my fiance' by showing improved social skills, something I learned on my own through hard work. I didn't use any lines, I didn't use any tactics, I just tried my hardest to remain calm, cool, and collected when I walked up to her and her two friends. I was smiling, inviting, and tried to be fun and funny. Inside I was having my stomach twist in knots. This was 4.5 years ago.

 

Back then I was about 2 years into trying to come out of my "shy shell" around attractive women. I made many mistakes, kissing up, being the "friend", etc. I noticed at the age of 21 that the same devastating situations and rejections kept hitting my life and I was so sick of being hurt. I saw other guys I considered jerks walking in and having a new girl every week and I couldn't get it. I knew that girls don't actually like a guy who treats them bad, that whole idea is just silly, so I figured out that something I was doing, the way I was going about things... something was sending the wrong "turn off signals". When I was a teen I thought it was my looks, but I'd not been called ugly once in my teen years and had been called "good looking" or even "hot" at times. So I knew my looks weren't to blame. It was me.

 

Nowadays, I am almost 7 years into learning the Dating Scene. I kept up with it after I met my fiance... not by going into the "field" but by listening to other guys problems and offering insight that I had learned in my 2 years out there. Nearly five years later I am still learning from speaking with other guys and now watching the show to hear the insights of someone like Mystery.

 

What I have seen on his YouTube vids and from the show... I do not see a "phony" (well... other than his outfit), I see a guy whom has very developed social skills and someone whom knows how to talk to a girl in catching her interest. When I see people talk down on that... I want to defend the guy. I see nothing he is doing wrong.

 

The best argument against him IMO is that he is having these guys go out there with made up stories to tell to keep them appearing interesting. I'm not fond of that, but instead of jumping to conclusions and making fast judgements I try to think about WHY. And to me it appears that these guys have no stories that would be found interesting, and they need something to practice with to get more comfortable and to see some success. None of the girls they are talking to are getting taken home by these guys, they are just going out there and practicing their flirting and getting experience. While they are doing this they are creating stories of their own, true stories about what they have seen by actually being in places where things happen. They didn't have these experiences to share stories when they sat playing video games all day. I can see why it is necessary, and no one is getting hurt while they practice as they aren't even taking girls home or anything of the sort. They're just going into the field and practicing... and we are seeing major improvement already.

 

I don't get the hate towards that. I'm happy for those guys as they appear to be very nice fella's.

[Dating Coach]

CP to me there is a difference in engaging in small talk and engaging in conversation that was rehearsed from a book or a pro.

 

"What highschool did you go to" is small talk. But practicing how you will tell a woman how beautiful her eyes are, BEFORE you ever even met a specific women, simply because some Pro says that complimenting a women on her eyes will help solidify your chances in getting her into bed is TOTALLY different.

 

I don't recall a PUA telling guys to compliment a girls eyes. It would be something akin to trying to validate yourself to them, which is a turn off to women. PUA's take the stance of showing their own value (not by bragging) as opposed to reminding her of her value.

 

As far as small talk... watch how the girls on the show at the club responded to these guys trying to make small talk. Perhaps small talk would be okay if girls didn't brutally rebuff these guys. You're not those guys, you don't have to have the hurt and devastating feeling of a girl turning her back on you and rolling her eyes when you walk up and say "Hi, what do you do for a living?". By being this way, women CREATED a challenge for the guys to either risk being hurt or by trying something different to stand out and not look like any old jerkwad who approaches a woman at a social setting with basic lines like that.

[Dating Coach]

What I'm trying to figure out is, why, DiggityD are you so invested in turning around the meaning of a PUA? Has someone called you that? Are you trying to redeem yourself? Why are you trying to redeem a word/phrase that INHERENTLY implies artifice and calculation?

 

That's quite an assertion to throw at me. I'm not treading carefully because it's starting to look like you're asking me a question with a loaded gun pointed in my direction.

 

I am not trying to redeem myself or anything. I've been observing the dating scene for awhile and think I have a pretty thorough understanding of it compared to most... not just the guy side, but the girls as well. Which is why I don't hold much against women whom respond badly to a normal guy trying to talk to them at a bar.

 

Pick Up Artist = Con Artist.

 

I think our little discussion is coming to an end. When you are talking in absolutes that means you've already created your point of view and aren't changing it. Anything I say outside this point of view you've already created is not going to exist. Speaking in absolutes like this is a big sign that this is the case.

 

You want to call anyone who is practicing an "art" a noble person? "Art" is about manipulation of materials. You create an effect using things. In this case, people. There are many "arts" that can be considered depraved.

 

A couple of pages back I posted a link to the show The Pick Up Artist where they send the clueless guys out into a club to meet women, and then Mystery and his guys go out after the guys come back and show them how it is done. I saw nothing negative or bad at all from their actions. Only the blonde one I didn't care for because he talked about himself too much IMO. But Mystery (aka Erik) did nothing wrong morally. He was a very good flirt while maintaining his distance and showing that he has value. That's it. I saw nothing of what you are claiming taking place.

 

 

If you started a conversation with your now-fiance' that was genuine, why do you insist on calling yourself a PUA in order to defend the use of the terminology? I don't understand.

 

I am not a PUA. What I have in common with a PUA is that I used good social skills. PUA's IMO (at least the good guy ones, not the "get laid ones") are just me at a much higher level of understanding. They may or may not be as good of natural flirts as me, but their understanding of what exactly is transpiring between them and the lady by way of signals being sent out is much greater than my own.

 

Why not just say you were a nice guy who saw an attractive girl who you thought you'd try to approach? Being good at conversation doesn't equate with PUA -- otherwise, I am a pickup artist and with women as well as men. Because I love to chat people up and make conversation, and if there's a "spark" we once in a while spontaneously get eachother's contact info.

 

Maybe you are a natural PUA. PUA doesn't = Player. A Player is a Player, no if's, ands, or but's. A PUA could be a player, but he also may not be. It depends on your motive. To play or to find a partner.

 

I don't actually get attracted to men who have "honed" their ability to charm me. I don't like to be charmed, not one bit. A "charming" person has learned to read people in a way that I find just a bit corrupt of a certain authenticity, vulnerability and sweetness. A man that is approachable to me is a man who isn't "practiced." He just IS. He is himself. He is not "out to get" something, but just happens to be there. And a conversation just happens. That is the kind of man I find very becoming.

 

Everything we do is honed through experience. A PUA has a honed ability to come accross as attractive. I'm getting the impression that a lot of you don't really know what is going on when a PUA talks to a girl. He's not "charming you" through mystical means, he's not faking everything he's doing, he's just experienced as coming accross to you as fun, exciting, interesting, and as someone whom is somebody worth knowing. That's it. By good social skills they know how to send you these signals without you feeling "threatened." If they fail to do this then they probably aren't that skilled in a social setting. None of this is through "tricks", it's all just a in depth understanding of male to female interaction.

 

You do the same thing. Imagine you have something to tell someone that may upset them. You could tell them a number of ways, some would be a much worse way of breaking the news and others would be a much easier way for the person to hear it. You, through experience, know the ways you should not approach the subject and ways you should to ensure the least drama. That's the same type of social skill PUA's have. That's all it is. Not "magic pick up lines", just someone knowing how to present the conversation and make it fun and exciting.

 

 

I see this mass hysteria about "friendzoning". Listen up all you youngin boys: (sorry to sound patronizing, but really, I've earned the right to talk like this, lol) -- a girl who thinks you are a wonderful person to confide in will either be attracted to you or not, regardless what "moves" you put on her. If you are patient and simply receptive to her as a person, you have a much greater chance of NOT being "friendzoned" than being friendzoned. You guys have the opposite notion: that if you don't make a move, you'll lose your chance and be only a friend after that. I have news for you: the longer you let the stew simmer, the richer it gets. The longer the wine cures, the better it tastes. With a quality woman who is going to really be interested in you rather than just your "dating appeal" which is about as short lived as a birthday candle as fires go, the more time you give the relationship that is budding to gain momentum as a friend, the more attractive you will become to her -- and if you don't become more attractive to her over time, you can bet your bottom dollar she NEVER would have found you attractive in the romantic sense. You don't MAKE a girl start to see you as passion material by putting moves on her. This does not make a girl go, "Oh, what was I thinking! This guy could actually be someone I'd like to kiss! I don't know why that wasn't occurring to me!" That just HAPPENS -- which should come as a HUGE relief to you guys, because it takes a lot of the pressure off. It really is about chemistry that grows by itself and increases all on its own, if you just come in without an agenda except to create a safe space where she wants to be.

 

This is a whole different topic and in all of my experiences... WRONG. I could go on all day about this topic... as it's my bread and butter. I spent too many years making these mistakes and getting friendzoned. I understand it inside and out.

 

First off, if you feel an attraction to a girl, sneaking in as "just friends" as far as she knows is deceptive. She sees you as a nice guy who's a good friend, but in reality you're not interested in "just friends", you're interested in more than that. By keeping this a secret, by doing her favors that you don't do for everyone else, etc... you're being very deceptive.

 

Second, you're sending off subconscious signals that you aren't dating worthy and that you aren't of high romantic value. Why? Because by keeping this a secret and moving in under disguise to hide your feelings, you exude low self confidence. That's unattractive. Any self confident individual isn't going to hide their feelings in fear of rejection, they aren't going to try to win a person over by sucking up to them and doing favors in order to be liked, they're going to instead respect their goals and respect themselves enough to persue it confidently. They deserve it.

 

Thirdly, too many guys do this with the "secret crush friend" approach. They hide their feelings for a long time hoping the girl will magically like them... which extremely rarely ever happens. So what are these guys doing? 1-they are narrowing their focus down on one particular girl whom they don't even know returns their feelings. 2-they are taking a good long time (sometimes years! Just read the forums for evidence of this!) all the while focusing on one girl and no others. 3-they are growing more and more attached to these girls as time goes on as they have become much much closer. So they are cheating themselves by focusing on only one girl when there are plenty of women out there worth dating, they are wasting potentially months or years on just the one girl, cheating their time as well, and ultimately are growing more and more attached until they want to burst out... and most likely (as per evidence-read the forums) when they are rejected they are DEVASTATED. I was. I spent a year on just one girl, spending time together, doing things for her, crushing the entire time, etc and when I finally couldn't keep it a secret anymore I confessed my feelings and was rejected. She was a year of my life, owned some deep feelings from me, and all for naught. It hurts.

 

So yes, I advise guys to not focus on just one girl, keep your options open until you meet someone, date them, and become exclusive. You owe it to yourself. I advise guys to ask the girl out on a date within a short amount of time after they realize they find her attractive. They owe themselves not to waste their time.

[jettison]

and you all are still arguing opinions............smh, some people find it creepy some people dont......i dont like baked chicken who wants too argue the fact that fried chicken is better......i'll dominate you!!!!!!

 

 

That's true, but when aren't we arguing opinions on ENA? Relationships are the farthest thing from an exact science, and the reason people come to ENA is to seek others opinions in order to gain perspective. If we weren't offering up our opinion, then what would we be offering?

 

That's why none of this should be taken too seriously. We're all just a product of our own conditioned minds, and no one has the "right" answer. Arguing relationship do and don'ts is like arguing music. It's qualitative.

[Sweet Buttabean Jellayroll]

too the original question

 

i dont think it gets creepy unless you 100 years old looking for one night stands at the bar..........i mean the people at the bar werent even born when you were in your prime

[jenny_mcs]

Wow, this is a long thread. Well, I still think there’s nothing wrong with the whole concept of a “pick-up artist.”

 

Sure, some of these guys are probably aggressive jerks who disrespect women. But aggressive jerks are, unfortunately, a part of society that you just have to deal with, and I don’t see any correlation to aggressive jerks and pua’s. I’m pretty sure the guy who shouted “Nice rack!” at me as I walked to the ladies room at Dodger Stadium the other night wasn’t a “pick-up artist.”

 

It would be wonderful if we were all born with the exact skill set we needed to achieve our goals in life. But some people aren’t, and they need to learn these skills, and practice and they need some help. Telling them “just be yourself” is not going to help, if they are nervous, shy, and socially awkward.

 

My younger brother is a fantastic, smart, hard-working guy who could not get a job after he graduated from college. He would get extremely nervous, freeze up and blow every interview. So he bought a book with common job interview questions, planned out how he would answer them and practiced answering them in front of a mirror.

 

Does this make him cheesy, or fake, or a loser? I don’t think so. I admire him for admitting he was lacking a certain skill set, and taking the steps he needed to learn & fix the problem. I look at guys who are trying to improve their social skills and success with women the same way.

[Dating Coach]

Once again, it's refreshing to see an open mind free of prejudice.

[Daddy Bear]

Once again, it's refreshing to see an open mind free of prejudice.

Why do you say that she's open-minded and unprejudiced, because she agrees with you? I guess I could say the same thing about TOV's succinct and clear-headed contributions, then.

[Dating Coach]

Why do you say that she's open-minded and unprejudiced, because she agrees with you? I guess I could say the same thing about TOV's succinct and clear-headed contributions, then.

 

Because SHE understands that just because one works to improve their social skills does not mean that the person inevitably becomes a user or a player. SHE understands that it's not compromising of their character nor is it wrong to seek to improve social skills through practice. SHE isn't looking at this as black and white, one or the other, SHE understands that someone mastering social skills with women could be either good or bad depending on the person, not the effort of learning.

 

She's not sitting here judging everyone negatively, which IMO shows her as someone of strong character and someone with class and intelligence.

[jettison]

jenny,

 

A lot of the misconnects that we're having on this thread stem from the phrase "pick-up artist". An artist is someone who, as Vamps stated, manipulates. Whether they be manipulating clay, canvas, acrylics, or another human being, that is their aim.

 

Vamps brought up the term, con-artist. A person who is an expert at trickery or deceit: He's an artist with cards.

 

If a person considers himself an "artist", then he is defining a lifestyle. No one says, "Well, I'm going to be an artist for a few weeks until I accomplish my goal, and then I'll go back to my normal self." In that case, you'd be just "some guy who made a painting". Not an "artist". An artist doesn't suddenly become a non-artist.

 

So in regards to dating, if someone openly proclaims themself an "artist" then they it would stand to reason that this is a way of life. They are experts at picking up women using studied techniques. That's the premise.

 

So we have the term "artist" taken care of. What about "picking up". I don't know about you, but if my buddy says "I'm going to go pick up some women" then what he's doing is getting a date or a phone number. He's not out there having friendly chit chat. I'm not going to tell someone "Yep, I picked up this hot lady" if all I did was buy her a beer. I didn't pick anyone up in that case.

 

What your describing is fine. Everyone should hone their social skills if given half a chance because it just makes life a whole lot easier. Nothing wrong with that. And there's also nothing wrong with picking up some woman you find attractive. Cool beans. But again, it's the culture that surrounds PUA that is a little laughable at times. One need not look very far via literature or internet to see what I'm talking about.

 

Diggity... why are you not a PUA? Until recently, I thought that you were saying that you are one. Why are your techniques separate from that of the "artist"?

[Daddy Bear]

Because SHE understands that just because one works to improve their social skills does not mean that the person inevitably becomes a user or a player. SHE understands that it's not compromising of their character nor is it wrong to seek to improve social skills through practice. SHE isn't looking at this as black and white, one or the other, SHE understands that someone mastering social skills with women could be either good or bad depending on the person, not the effort of learning.

 

She's not sitting here judging everyone negatively, which IMO shows her as someone of strong character and someone with class and intelligence.

 

I'm not judging everyone negatively either, nor am I implying that those who don't agree with me are lacking in class, character and intelligence. I simply believe that NLP and associated techniques, as applied by the majority of PUA method devotees, are self-serving, manipulative, and not employed for any other reason than to gain access to a woman's vagina. Why is that considered and well-reserached view so impossible for you to deal with?

[CaptainPlanet]

I'm not judging everyone negatively either, nor am I implying that those who don't agree with me are lacking in class, character and intelligence. I simply believe that NLP and associated techniques, as applied by the majority of PUA method devotees, are self-serving, manipulative, and not employed for any other reason than to gain access to a woman's vagina. Why is that considered and well-reserached view so impossible for you to deal with?

 

The purpose of any relationship is to gain access to a womans vagina so you can make babies come out of it. Sorry its all a trick evolution has played on us all.

 

Companionship and lardy blardy I get that from friends and family.

[JadedStar]

Why do you say that she's open-minded and unprejudiced, because she agrees with you? I guess I could say the same thing about TOV's succinct and clear-headed contributions, then.

 

I was going to say the same thing. I disagree that Jenny is any more openminded than anyone else on this topic, she just has an opposing view of mine and some of the others. She is entitled to her view and I would not attack her for having it, but more open midned than others she is not. Some PUA's ARE jerks. Bottom line. Some are not.

 

TOV gave a very clear point from the female side that was not narrowminded at all.

 

Just because someone disagrees with You Diggity does not mean they are narrowminded. I could say the same for you - that you have an extremely narrow view of a PUA. just because you are defining it differently does not necessarily put you in the right.

[Daddy Bear]

The purpose of any relationship is to gain access to a womans vagina so you can make babies come out of it. Sorry its all a trick evolution has played on us all.

 

Companionship and lardy blardy I get that from friends and family.

That's how YOU think. I happen to know that sex isn't the only reason to want to be with a woman for some men.

[jettison]

There would be no need for that if there were no personal attacks and we could all keep our tempers in check as we gave our opinions.

 

I have been engaging in personal attacks... but not against members of ENA. I've been attacking a semi well-known celebrity. I would hope that no one would internalize nor personalize that. Similarly, if Brittney Spears were verbally berated, I would hope that none of the owners of the hit single, "Oops, I did it again" would be offended.

[Raiden]

The purpose of any relationship is to gain access to a womans vagina so you can make babies come out of it. Sorry its all a trick evolution has played on us all.

 

Companionship and lardy blardy I get that from friends and family.

 

Yeah, right. Lol.

 

Tell us then CP, where did the word "Romance" originate from?

[jettison]

I was going to say the same thing. I disagree that Jenny is any more openminded than anyone else on this topic, she just has an opposing view of mine and some of the others. She is entitled to her view and I would not attack her for having it, but more open midned than others she is not. Some PUA's ARE jerks. Bottom line. Some are not.

 

TOV gave a very clear point from the female side that was not narrowminded at all.

 

Just because someone disagrees with You Diggity does not mean they are narrowminded. I could say the same for you - that you have an extremely narrow view of a PUA. just because you are defining it differently does not necessarily put you in the right.

 

God bless you for saying that. Diggity, why is your definition of PUA the right one? Why, for example, is the Wiki definition less authoritative? And what about all of the other, obviously misogynistic webistes that claim the PUA moniker?

[jettison]

The purpose of any relationship is to gain access to a womans vagina so you can make babies come out of it. Sorry its all a trick evolution has played on us all.

 

Companionship and lardy blardy I get that from friends and family.

 

That's the purpose? That is incredibly romantic. If only I were gay.

[Daddy Bear]

I have been engaging in personal attacks... but not against members of ENA. I've been attacking a semi well-known celebrity. I would hope that no one would internalize nor personalize that. Similarly, if Brittney Spears were verbally berated, I would hope that none of the owners of the hit single, "Oops, I did it again" would be offended.

 

I'm going to suspend judgment on Mystery. If his true intent is to help people get into relationships (and not just pants), as Eva has posted, then I have no quarrel with the man. I do understand that he's married, so maybe he really is trying to steer the PUA fad in a better direction. galaxy71 said that the core of the movement is about the social skills and not the bedpost-notching, and I'd really like to believe that to be true. That would make it no different than NC or martial arts training, both of which have redeemable tenets but are widely abused by ignorant half-men with clear self-worth issues.

[jettison]

I'm going to suspend judgment on Mystery. If his true intent is to help people get into relationships (and not just pants), as Eva has posted, then I have no quarrel with the man. I do understand that he's married, so maybe he really is trying to steer the PUA fad in a better direction. galaxy71 said that the core of the movement is about the social skills and not the bedpost-notching, and I'd really like to believe that to be true. That would make it no different than NC or martial arts training, both of which have redeemable tenets but are widely abused by ignorant half-men with clear self-worth issues.

 

When the majority of your heroes are either Buddhists or true philanthropists, it's hard to get particularly excited about singing the praises of a man who lent himself a cheezy nickname and whose most redeeming quality is to help men score with chicks.

 

If I came into work tomorrow and asked everyone in the office to start calling me "Turbo Jett Engine Superstar" then I'd expect to get a little bit of grief in return.

[Daddy Bear]

When the majority of your heroes are either Buddhists or true philanthropists, it's hard to get particularly excited about singing the praises of a man who lent himself a cheezy nickname and whose most redeeming quality is to help men score with chicks.

 

If I came into work tomorrow and asked everyone in the office to start calling me "Turbo Jett Engine Superstar" then I'd expect to get a little bit of grief in return.

Aw, I like flamboyant people. They push wide the accepted norms of society. Mae West embracing her sexuality, Marlena Deitrich in men's clothes; people like them have contributed to true open-mindedness in a big way. Why, if not for Boy George... wait, scratch that one.

[Dating Coach]

I was going to say the same thing. I disagree that Jenny is any more openminded than anyone else on this topic, she just has an opposing view of mine and some of the others. She is entitled to her view and I would not attack her for having it, but more open midned than others she is not. Some PUA's ARE jerks. Bottom line. Some are not.

 

TOV gave a very clear point from the female side that was not narrowminded at all.

 

Just because someone disagrees with You Diggity does not mean they are narrowminded. I could say the same for you - that you have an extremely narrow view of a PUA. just because you are defining it differently does not necessarily put you in the right.

 

No, you are agreeing with EXACTLY what we are saying. If you are saying: "Some PUA's ARE jerks. Bottom line. Some are not." then you are in agreement with us. What I am calling narrowminded is someone saying ALL are jerks. That's it.

[Daddy Bear]

I don't think too many people buy the line that most so-called "pickup artists" are loking for real relationships. You would have to go no further than any PUA website to see that this argument is fallacious.

 

I'd comment on your declaration that you don't know who I am, but I think it's time we turned our attention away from each other's character flaws and back to the subject at hand. Would that be possible for you?

[Dating Coach]

God bless you for saying that. Diggity, why is your definition of PUA the right one? Why, for example, is the Wiki definition less authoritative? And what about all of the other, obviously misogynistic webistes that claim the PUA moniker?

 

Your Wiki definition is in agreement with me. It said nothing about how using PUA methods means your end goal must be a ONS. As long as we are in agreement that you can use PUA methods for self improvement and to assist you in understanding the dating scene then there is no argument.

[Dating Coach]

galaxy71 said that the core of the movement is about the social skills and not the bedpost-notching, and I'd really like to believe that to be true. That would make it no different than NC or martial arts training, both of which have redeemable tenets but are widely abused by ignorant half-men with clear self-worth issues.

 

That's what I have been saying all along.