Advice Required

[JadedStar]

I was not privvy to the other advice on any other thread. I personally think her b/f should kick her out but he is hanging on for dear life. I don't think this woman should be with either of you but should move on and find out what might have been missing in her life to cause such betrayal to not just her b/f, but now to you. She made promises to you she couldn't keep, lied to him...

 

I don't find this woman worth two mean fighting for to be perfectly honest. I think the only thing that will help her learn valuable lessons would be if you both moved on and let her go. She needs to find herself in a place with neither of you to lean on and lean on herself and do some self repair. At least you did do the right thing and leave your g/f when you realized it was over. I won't judge you for the affair as it is none of my business. But at least you did follow the advice and left your g/f. If you ONLY did that for this other woman, then you see it bit you in the rear. You should have left your g/f becuase obviously you did not love her...but you see this is why I say I do not think th is other woman loves YOU like you think. If she did, wild horses would not have been able to drag her from you Ed.

[treefrogkate]

I agree, JadedStar. We didn't advise Ed to break up with his girlfriend for the other woman; we advised breaking up with her because he was not putting her first in his heart, and everyone (including you, Ed) deserves to have a significant other who has eyes only for them.

 

Ed, we can't tell her to break up with her boyfriend, because she is not on this board. If she were, we would give her the same advice we gave you: This person is no longer first in your heart, so let them go and find someone who will love them for all they are.

 

Personally, I feel sorry for both her boyfriend and for you. You are both willing to settle for second place in this woman's affections, and she knows it, and is feeding on all the attention. If she really loved you as much as you say, she would have broken up with her boyfriend already.

 

Also, I think it's unfair of you to meddle in their relationship. If she's asked you to not contact her so she can decide whether she's going to work it out with her boyfriend or not, then that's what you need to do. It speaks volumes of the amount of respect you have for the woman to make the right decision without your butting in and contacting her and trying to get her to get out of her relationship. If you truly believe her when she says she loves you, then what do you have to worry about?

[Ed1]

Hi Jadestar - thanks for the replies.

 

'wild horses would not have been able to drag her from you'

 

I guess that is my problem.....she doesn't want to stay away from me....and she doesn't stay away from me. Over the past 5 months we have attempted to break things off, go our separate ways, and work on our relationship. BAck in March we decieded to cool it off, only to go away 3 weeks later for a long weekend together as we were missing each other. Since then we have met again and spent 2 solid weeks together, we have phoned, mailed, texted everyday, sometimes 2-3 hours a day. Over the past week, I have been on the phone to her for in excess of 8 Hours, on top of her sending her friends away when we met at the station so we could spend some time together....Every opportunity we have had to be together we have been, every opportunity we have had to speak we have spoken....

 

I don't disagree that she should be with me if she loves me - I have discussed this with her, in depth on a number of occasions. She has been upset that I have questioned her feelings, she says she has no doubts of her feelings for me - that she does love me, and is nuts about me. Her only doubt in this whole mess is her feelings for her b/f - she doesn't know if she still loves him or is just comfortable with him. This is what she says is messing her head up so much and why she is not prepared to jump ship at this stage. She says that she is not someone who gives up easily, and needs to give her relationship one last try so that at least she can say she tried, didn't give up prematurely, and hopefully leave her b/f on good terms instead of under a cloud of anger....

 

Does that not make sense from a womans perspective? I don't know that is why I am so confused. I have questioned her feelings for me, she has re-inforced them when I have asked. Surely if she didn't give a Sh*t she would have told me, she wouldn't still be putting her b/f through hell, if she didn't have feelings for me.....

[JadedStar]

Ed, please please please read your last reply very carefully. I sense you are an intelligent man and I do believe your own answers are not from me or the others, but inside of yourself. You said she can't say whether or not she still loves her b/f. That means there is a very good chance she does. What this tells you is that this is a woman who is very capable of having feelings for, and messing with, two men at once. What happens when YOU are the b/f? Do you think you will ever live happily ever after and stress free? You are always going to wonder when she has yet another guy that she has feelings for. Personally I could NEVER be with a man even if I thought he loved me, if he couldn't tell if he had fallen out of love with another woman. As much as it gutted me, i'd have to pick my respect and dignity off of the floor and move on. Without him.

 

Her continuing to see you is nothing more than a drug fix Ed. The passion of an affair is as powerful as herione, why do you think people have such a hard time ending it? Not becuase they usually fall in love with the person in the affair, but because the forbidden fruit, the passion and the intimacy is very very alluring. It does not prove love, not at all. It proves the opposite IMO. It proves that this person has the capacity to give herself to two men at once. NOt a very good relationship candidate IMO. I would have more feelings about her conviction and morals if she REFUSED to see you. That would at least show she has SOME character here.

 

Lust and love are two close cousins. Lust has made people leave their spouses Ed. We know she is not in lust with her b/f, or she probably would have left him. Doesn't this tell you that she is probably in love with him, and in lust with you? And neither love nor lust is something she wants to give up, so here you and her b/f are, two pawns feeding her self esteem.

 

There is going to come a time (hopefully soon) that you are going to become so angry at her for putting you thru all of this. For your own good i hope that anger comes soon because it is a critical component of the stages of grief. After the anger comes acceptance. You have been suspended in the denial stage for quite sometime. It is rather normal, people often oscillate between the denial and anger stage back and forth.

 

I suggest in the meantime you do a lot of research on the stages of grief in break ups. You are going thru a very emotional time right now, have you considered a counselor? Sometimes we need that face to face interaction with a professional to help us see what our mind has shut off.

[treefrogkate]

Our posts must have crossed... Anyway, what right does she have to get upset that you are questioning her feelings for you? She is choosing her boyfriend over you over and over.

 

You need to give her the space to deal with this (and might I also say to let her know that she risks losing you if she doesn't make up her mind?). I'm not one for games, I'm really not, but this is ridiculous. You are at her every beck and call, and she knows it. She doesn't really have to make a choice right now, does she? You're both willing to just hang on and wait for her. Maybe it would light a fire under her if she knew there was a serious chance of losing you.

[Ed1]

Thanks so much for taking the time to consider my predicament and provide such detailed / balanced replies.

 

I have been hurt in the past, and on the other side of an affair, which served to reinforce why I was so anti-affairs.

 

I am really sad that my relationship with my g/f has broken up after 6+ years, it is a bitter pill to swallow – and I do still love and care for her. Although my actions recently of not conducive of a loving partner….It would have been very easy for me to stay in the comfort of my relationship while things went on, but a) that would not be fair, b) my g/f deserves better than a two timing b/f, and c) the trust would have gone when I came clean. It is c) that was a real factor to me, as I don’t believe that the relationship would ever be the same again with my g/f. She would always doubt me, and trust would always be an issue. This is what I am finding hard to understand about this woman’s b/f, as he knows a lot more than I told my g/f. Everyone around him knows, and has been told by her that she is in love with me. Yet he still hangs in there. Sure he may love her, but this is just madness. My friends, have suggested that he may be staying with her until I get bored and then he will drop her to be left with nothing…

 

There are 2 issues for me here, well 3 actually. I have the grief of loosing my long term g/f who I do still love, the pain of the situation with this woman, and loosing my home which I have worked so hard for….On top of this I have a battery of very high profile professional exams throughout the year….and a very pressured/stressful job. My head feels like it is going to pop!

 

I still believe that this woman does Love Me – she is old enough and experienced enough to know what love / lust is, and I know she is not the sort of person to say I love you if she was not 100% sure herself. The very fact that this affair has been so open / public with respect to the fact that she has shared her feelings for me with her colleague/friends/family etc must mean something. This woman has a very responsible job, and is very intelligent. Sure this does not mean she is intelligent in love, but I am very sure she knows how she feels. A couple of weeks ago, when I questioned her about her feelings for me/us, she told me that she had only been in love twice – me and her current b/f….despite having many short term relationships which she says were definitely lust. That is why she is saying it is so difficult to make the decision. I don’t doubt that she loves her b/f – just as I love my g/f. I do however feel that my relationship with my g/f had run its course. I had done very wrong, and maybe punished myself by splitting up. I do feel that it is possible to love 2 people at the same time, but only be in love with one person. That is how I feel – I love my g/f and in love with this woman. When I asked her about her feelings a couple of weeks ago, without any prompting, she said exactly the same about me – that she is in love with me, but still cares/loves her b/f.

 

It is a mess, but I truly feel that this woman is the one for me. I have had many relationships over the years, and have lusted after a number of women before, but have never over stepped the mark. I knew that these were lust feelings and that the grass was not greener – so to speak. Call me a hopeless romantic, call me mad, but I truly felt that I needed to act on my feelings, and this could be my chance of true happiness with the woman of my dreams…..The feelings have been reciprocated up to the point of her splitting with her b/f – but going back to my previous paragraph is it not possible that I am just a few steps ahead of her in the thought process, and that my decision to split with my g/f due to my feelings for this woman have just come easier….?

[JadedStar]

I think your last statement in your post is proof of your denial. You are still clinging to hope.

 

Ed, I trust that you have been getting some very sound advice for quite sometime from a lot of people I respect as members. So all I can say in closing is that I think you need to realize that there are other people in the world that you will find love with. It should behoove you to just realize that you and your g/f's relationship ran its course, and maybe this other woman was only a catalyst to hasten the end of that. But realize that maybe neither of those women are "the one".

 

I think you should be seeing a counselor. The stress you are enduring is a bit much for anyone to have to take. If you could just let go of this one and move on, you will find that either she does love you and won't lose you, or it was never meant to be.

 

Ed, be honest with me here, and yourself. Does a part of you feel fear of giving her an ultimatum because you know her answer will be "goodbye"? And you are terrified of that? Someone suggested telling her "its him or me" and you never addressed that. I think you are terrified of who she will choose. But conquering one's fear is the only thing that will help us grow in our lives. I don't care how intelligent you think she is or how much you feel she knows what love is, truth is she is stringing along two men. She may have never done this before but that does not negate the pain she is causing people she is supposed to care abuot.

 

And yes, break ups of any kind hurt. Your putting this band aid on it by stealing time and convos with her is doing nothing but impeding your ability to grow as a mature human being.

 

She needs to "crap" or get off the pot Ed.

 

I cannot be anymore blunt than that and doubt i can offer you anymore words of advice.

[Ed1]

JadedStar - thanks so much for your advice, sometimes blunt, but all the same I really appreciate your thoughts and insight into my issue.

 

In response to your comment about it is me or him - maybe I have not been that direct, and to be honest that is not typically my style, but on balance this may be the only way forward. I do know that her b/f used this line on her a few weeks ago - but obviously didn't stick to his words. I know that at the weekend after we spent time together, and she told her b/f that he re-inforced this, and this appeared to cause her concern in the sense that she wasn't giving her relationship the last chance that the 2 of them had agreed to,(they agreed to give it 3 months and if she was still had feelings for me they were going to call it a day). I have suggested to her what if I just walked, and she said she would be absolutely gutted, and question if I really had the same feelings for her i.e loved her....

 

What are peoples thoughts on giving it a 3 month ultimatum - no contact for a period of time, and see how she feels then? What are the chances that she will realise what she is missing/loosing? From a womans perspective, how should I go about it, to make sure I get my feelings accross but at the same time make sure that she knows I mean business?

 

As for a counsellor - I find them a waste of time. They get paid for asking you questions, but offer no real advice....How is that going to help my stress levels?

[JadedStar]

I have suggested to her what if I just walked, and she said she would be absolutely gutted, and question if I really had the same feelings for her i.e loved her....

 

 

Please accept this for what it is. A control tactic. She has NO right to say if you question her or demand anything from her or walk away that you don't have the same feelings that she does. She has a lot of nerve expecting you to live in this state of turmoil. I would be questioning her feelings for ME and i think you should tell her that - you should say to her "so if I try to pick up the pieces of my life and move on, you will question if i ever loved you"? And if she says yes then i think you should tell her well see ya! This was a very revealing statement as to her personality type.

 

What are peoples thoughts on giving it a 3 month ultimatum - no contact for a period of time, and see how she feels then? What are the chances that she will realise what she is missing/loosing? From a womans perspective, how should I go about it, to make sure I get my feelings accross but at the same time make sure that she knows I mean business?

 

She will know you mean business if you STICK to it. If you waver one second, she has you by the groin again. Give her a timeline, absolutely NO contact in between, and come that timeline if she has not "found herself" with this guy then again SEE YA.

[Iceman26]

 

What are peoples thoughts on giving it a 3 month ultimatum - no contact for a period of time, and see how she feels then? What are the chances that she will realise what she is missing/loosing? From a womans perspective, how should I go about it, to make sure I get my feelings accross but at the same time make sure that she knows I mean business?

 

 

I am not a fan of ultimatums. I am one of those "Crap or get off the pot" people. She knows what you did to be with her, and she stayed with her boyfriend.

 

I think you have done enough and you should move on now. If you talk to her tell her "Hey, dump the boyfriend and then we can talk, until then don't call me".

 

If she dumps him and comes to you, then see where things go (though I personally wouldn't have a relationship with someone like that)

 

And if not, then you haven't wasted anymore time waiting around for her.

[RayKay]

I agree with everything Jaded is telling you word for word (but you probably already knew I would!) but I most DEFINITELY agree with this

 

 

 

She is being manipulative there.

 

Is there not a double standard in there in that her NOT walking away from her boyfriend should have you questioning HER feelings to you? How come it is okay for her to do what she is trying to control you not too? She may be intelligent, I don't doubt that....she may know what "lust/love is" but the fact is that does not mean this is not lust because lust is part of the early stages BEFORE love. There is nothing WRONG with lust, it is part of the early stages of any relationship. But to say it is love this early shows you really are in denial and really also is degrading to what LOVE really is. This is why I keep saying it is lust and not love because it is TOO EARLY..even less time since it is an AFFAIR and it is easy to let the excitement, the secrecy, the passion blind you to the truth. Love is MORE than just a feeling and it is certainly more about how good they make you feel.

 

As much as you THINK you know her...you DON'T KNOW HER! How does she behave when she is angry at something you did (or did not do)? What does she do when she is under threat of layoffs at work, or when you are sick? How does she interact with your family? Does she leave dirty towels on the floor, the cap of the toothbrush? Does she share chores equally? Is she a spender or a saver?

 

Is she passive-aggressive, or a provoker? Can she take responsibility and say sorry when she is in wrong? Will she come and talk to you when there is a serious concern, or a small concern, or will she pout and give you the silent treatment (or manipulate as the quote above shows?). Does she try and "hide" issues from you like finances, other men, bad habits?

 

Is she alright with you having your free time, alone time...or will over time she become more restrictive? Will she become possessive of the time you spend with other female friends/coworkers?

 

 

 

See these are all things you can say "you know" 5 months in. But you don't. Especially not since those 5 months were as an affair where part of the thrill for her was the secrecy, the being able to be "new" to you. She can present her BEST self. As you present her yours. That is what the early stages of ANY relationship are. It is easy and almost intuitive to meet one anothers needs seamlessly, and be absolutely fulfilled. But what about in 6 more months, 1 year, 6 years?

 

You do not know the ins and outs of one another. IN time you will see that as your ex did, she has flaws, she is not a perfect person, and only then will you know if there is real love there or not. These are things that come up with time....and these are things that come as you develop LOVE together. Love is not given, it is CREATED over time with honesty, communication, a shared life.

 

I agree with the having NO CONTACT with her so she can figure out what she actually wants. But YOU MUST STICK WITH IT. No contact with her unless she has LEFT him and made a clean break from him. Same goes for you with your ex and the matters you need to sort out. Then you can start this relationship in the real world and see what comes of it.

 

I am not trying to be hard on you.....I feel for you even though you did get yourself in this situation I know you feel pulled in a lot of directions. I will not condone what you did, I however do not want to see you allow yourself to get even further into a situation to point you lost much more. Believe me, backing off and giving her space to decide what she wants, and will do, is the BEST thing to do and is the best way to assure that if she truly loves you....she will do what is right.

[Ed1]

RayKay - Good to hear from you and thanks for your reply.

 

I have had a bit of a roasting over the past few months from yourself, but I do realise that you are providing me with good advice - as difficult as it may be to read at times....

 

I agree with your comments on Love - I really do. The feelings that I have for this woman are that I would spend the rest of my life with her, that I would get married to her, have kids with her etc (things I could not definatively say in my last relationship). I would look after her if she was sick, I do love her little quirks - yes she is a little messy with clothes etc. I do agree though that Love develops with time, but I can honestly say I want to share my life with this woman....

 

I guess my only concern is that if I give her a total break for 3 months she will get back into the comfort zone of her relationship. If I spun the scenario around and said spend 3 months with me and if you were missing you ex b/f etc then we aren't right - I am pretty sure she would not look back. This is obviously not feasable, but hopefully you can see where I am coming from.

 

How do I make her realise that she means the world to me, and yet get the message accross that it is me or him?

 

Thanks again for all your advice.

[JadedStar]

How do I make her realise that she means the world to me, and yet get the message accross that it is me or him?

 

 

JUST TELL HER JUST LIKE THAT. "I love you with all my heart but it is me or him!"

 

Don't mince words!

[treefrogkate]

I guess my only concern is that if I give her a total break for 3 months she will get back into the comfort zone of her relationship.

 

If she does, then wouldn't that mean she didn't love you as much as she says she does?

 

Like the old saying goes, if you love her, set her free. If she truly loves you as much as she says she does, and truly wants to be with you, then telling her "I understand that you need to give your relationship with your boyfriend one last chance. I will respect this and give you the space you need and I will not contact you for 3 months, nor will I answer the phone if you call or email you back if you write to me. Know that I love you with all my heart, that I will be thinking of you, and that I will miss you, but that I may not wait for you. When the 3 months is over, I hope that you will choose me, and if I am still available, that we can make a go of it then." would send her the message that you honestly love her, but that her decision can have consequences, and one of those consequences is to lose you forever. Right now there are no consequences for her continuing to waffle back and forth.

 

Then go strict NC for 3 months. Calculate out the day you'll write back to her, then DON'T CONTACT HER OR REPLY TO ANY CONTACTS FROM HER until then.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

you say: 'She says ....hopefully leave her b/f on good terms instead of under a cloud of anger.... Does that not make sense from a womans perspective? '

 

Absolutely does NOT make sense from any perspective. she keeps torturing both you and this guy, and that is going to mean they split on good terms? i don't think so...

 

I'm going to throw out one thing for you to think about... it is a well known fact that many foolish women will wait for YEARS, even decades, for a married man to leave his wife... all over promises that he will leave 'when the time is right,' or 'when my wife is better able to deal with it emotionally' or 'when things are better financially' or 'when the kids are a bit older'...

 

I am suggesting that *maybe* this woman is doing just that, saying ANYTHING to keep stalling you, while ensuring you stay on the hook. the fact that she is blabbering all this to all her friends, co-workers, etc., makes me think she is a drama queen, and is enjoying all the commotion, with her at the center of it.

 

you are assuming that is is a nice normal girl who will settle down once your true love is free of this boyfriend. but honestly, i can't think of too many people who would keep two men on a string this long, while torturing them both with indecision, and spill all their dirty laundry to anyone who would listen UNLESS they were drama queens and loving all the attention.

 

please don't keep speculating on what is wrong with the boyfriend who keeps dandling after her... you are EXACTLY the same, dandling after her, but with even less reason than he has. she goes home to him every night, sleeps with him, etc. he is living on hope, just like you are.

 

honestly, i can't think of too many *stable* people who would cause as much chaos as she does in the lives of people she supposedly loves... and if i were a co-worker she was spilling her little romeo and juliet story to all the time, i would seriously consider telling her to get over herself, and quit jerking two seemingly nice guys around.

 

so i think you *don't* know her as well as you think. there are soooo many affairs that just live for the moment when they can be together unobstructed by that inconvenient person they are cheating on, then the affair implodes very quickly after that.

 

so there is a *small* chance you'll beat the odds, but not a good one. i think for your own sake, you need to see a counselor and not wreck the rest of your life (career or otherwise) yearning for a woman who is more than willing to cause chaos around herself, rather than making a decision and paying the price for her actions. right now it looks like you and her boyfriend are the ones paying the price, while she stirs up a whole lot of drama, and gets tons of attention from it. doesn't that make you wonder why she is NOT making that decision and sticking to it? you can tell yourself anything you want, but she is doing exactly what she wants, and it looks like you and the boyfriend are the ones paying for that, not her. her own options are still wide open, while both of you are trussed up like christmas turkeys hanging on her every word and anxiously waiting to see who will score the next points with her.

 

get a grip, and get to work, and if she comes to you, she comes to you, but don't count on it. i suggest you get on with your life and don't spend too much time feeding her drama... that may be what's she's really after, all the drama and being the center of lots of people's attention.