rich_1517

so the struggle begins, the doubts, the second guessing.

perhaps i should have said yes to san diego

maybe she just needs time to open up

something is blocking her feelings

she loved the kissing at one week after break up, what happened since? (wish ihad asked her that one)

this is hard....

i wouldnt take much for me to jump back in it. but i think i have to stay the course and now let her feel my loss, she obviously doesnt get it, becuase wanting to see me the day after i say im moving on and then talks about work.....?

she is numb to all feelings. how the hell did i fall in love with someone that shut off at times? she is kind and considerate and may other things that are wonderful, but how can you ever resolve anything if you wont look at your own feelings?

one thing i have not posted here is she loaned me money when things got hard. i refused then said ok, its a couple of grand. could she really be hanging in there out of fear. i should write her an email, or just send checks as my finances improve. its been kind of embarrassing becuase i used to make 100k. this is a priority for me.

she came by today, i dodged coffee, but she still had my wallet. she called when i was already home so i said sure drop it off.

i was tired and sunburned from work but very very relaxed. i didnt talk, she talked and was nervous. twenty minutes of her talking about her work. she never talks this much about her work. so i switched into listening mode, this is good for me to keep practicing.

i learned a while ago to be interesting be interested. so i just listened and confirmed what she would say. but i offered nothing. then i started to show i was tired till she got the message it was time to go. about half an hour total.

she said we'll talk. i just nodded. and realised that i turned away without saying much. so i waved.

i dont understand her. i dont know how someone can so totally block off their feelings. that isnt a "dont you love me thing" you dont try so damn hard to keep someone in your life as she has and be unable to express anything. she has admitted the only person she misses ever is her son. her mom, dad, everyone else she just doesnt let it get her. so dont bank on me either.

so my only plan now is keep moving forward. i may be wrong about packing dates in as distraction. im not interested in building a list of scores, just distraction, apprecation, giving attention wheres its appreciated and now if something happens i may not fight it.

I dont want a year or two of longing, im going to start actively purging her from my system. she has about a month im guessing before i will see her behaviour as it has been and realise i am better off without her.

i am sad, we matched in so many ways its scary she even admitted it. but without desire there is no motive. sigh.

hmm. all it takes sometimes is someone to say "wait" and mess you all up. a couple people said "so now what will you do when she comes around?" i said what?

its true this is the first time i have said both "daiting others" and "if you cant go further i move on" and meant it.

i have to operate like its over, but that just threw a wrench at me. yes i know the impact of dropping someone and competition i just dont know if she will respond.

its very hard when you have an ex who wants to find their feelings and keeps showing up for it. we spent whole days and nights with each other. she has never broken a date, and has now been planning.

i did culitivate based on her needs and attention and support. that is true. i guess ihave to be extremely strong now and not give in to the little pushes that may come. (her calling) she already wanted to do coffee today.

i suppose i could drop her a line in a week or two about her stuff, and do a drive by. i just dont know.

doubt will bother me for a while on this one. the trip to san diego really sounded like a real attempt by her and i would love it. if anyone can see something in here, let me know.

sorry scout my judgement wasnt intended. absolutely an ex "should" say what thier intentions are for coming on to you. its selfish and opportunistic to do otherwise, its also just plain inconsiderate of your feelings.

my comment was about loss of self, boundaries, giving away and feeling used. probably shouldnt have referenced you. ill remove it.

Hey Dikaia

hmm have to be the voice of the sensitive male here. i know it sounds exciting and would probably be awesome. but she has issued a real message to you about not getting hooked on her with sex.

i just ended mine. and while sex was missing intimacy on one to one was not, meaning my feelings could very much be hurt.

ask yourself if you can make love to her, hold her, run your fingers over her body and then watch her walk out. i dont mean to be harsh.

if you think this will turn her around read other posts about post coitial feelings and remember there is no difference between men and women on the after effects. you also are freely giving it away so you cant be mad if it doesnt turn her feelings.

I told my ex that i am glad we didnt get intimate before trying to rebuild. because so many reconiciliations fail because people get back in tight before addressing the problems.

but then i also realise there are no hard and fast rules either, follow your heart but with strength too.

just be careful.

i hate to throw a negative at you, im just thinking about the cost to you.

Well we talked.

i cant fault anything i did, i believe with anyone else it would have worked. she just waited too long to leave and maybe nothing was left.

there is the possibility, she even said it herself that missing me will be the thing that turns her feelings around. she said she wishes she felt different but she sees me as a friend. this is one of those truly sad stories.

she wanted to know what this meant her not having feelings right now. and that she cant commit to working on something, she feels its been said. meaning she feels needs have been talked about and its not that. that she would be faking it right now.

i said it means i start dating and looking for something new. that i have no wish to see something that mattered a great deal to me turn to nothing and to meet each others "new loves'

she was very sad. she wanted to know if i would do coffee tomorrow. i said no. so begins no contact with no goal other then forgetting. i will miss her i wanted to marry her. this was the last card to play.

have hope if you are trying out there to get them back. she truly wishes she felt more, she already knew i was a good catch and everything else i have done and become she loves. but not enough.

this is gonna hurt. i have to have the strength now to keep her away if she has nothing to offer. she will call, or she may not, but i know what is there and it is painful.

i hope that my loss to her will do it. i have set up dates now for pretty much every time i need one. i just have to operate with integrity.

i timed it pretty crappy for her, she invited me to go with her and her son to san diego for three days. and all i could imagine was sleeping on the couch. she has him for three weeks which allows me time knowing she cant date while i can. meaning she cant build in as much distraction from her feelings. but then she doesnt have any...

i am second guessing. maybe three days would have done it. being around each other for that much time.

thanks steve,

this is very hard it may take time for her to come around or she not at all or or.

but yes she is that afraid. she had no answer last night. and is actually i think trying to put this back into my court to see if i will blink and just accept again.

your situation is tough. your girl is really playing you hard, its very wrong. my question for you is you have to leave, based on her ability to lie at this point would you really want a long distance relationship with her?

i know that sounds harsh. but ask yourself would you now want this woman as your wife? im older and i ask that question just about the second i think i might be interested. but it isnt a bad test.

i can suggest how to get her back from him, how to be the better more attractive option but do you want her?

here are richs famous two questions

1: if you werent around would you want this woman raising your kids (like if you died)

2. can you accept her the way she is without changes?

hard questions but they tell you a lot about your real feelings. if you ever find someone with two yes's marry them immediately.

hmm. well she called with no answer. she called my line, the cell phone, my roomates cell phone. and then said: can we talk tomorrow?

i expected that, i think she is scared to face the truth of what i am saying. that you are losing me if you wont pick up your end of the relationship.

so we will talk tomorrow. she did say i know we were supposed to talk tonight. i was thinking um, no thats not what we were supposed to do. you were supposed to say if you are willing to work on it.

i may have to clarify that again.

oh boy im staying out of this one.

well if you are still listening today was the day.

i can look back and say either way i did what was truest to myself.

I called her and said i need more. that romance, intimacy passion and love come from two people seeking something together. not one.

I need you to show up and commit to working on this with me.

I did think to ask if there was something, someone or a feeling that was involved.

she said she is just trying to do what seems natural.

i said i can appreciate that, and i understand, but without an expression of feelings, without a sharing of feelings this will never happen. i know you dont want to look deep at your feelings but it is the only way we can find a solution.

i cannot build a fire on ground with no kindling.

i said i think i know where we went wrong, i think i know what we can do different. but it would take the two of us doing it.

soooo,. she said can i call you back? she said she will call today.

so now i wait. i have to think what do i want to do if she comes back with half of what i want or a question of how we do this. she may simply say i cant.

i ended with yesterday was great, it would have been better with a nice sweet kiss to end it. ill talk to you later.

Rich

I did it see post if curious.

well actually its not a bad day. i had a great day yesterday.

i think maybe i am showing my frustrations and desire a little, nah, im doing it pretty cool, but its the fact that I want the contact and not her that bugs me.

i brought up smoking and that i hadnt quit. she said she see me trying and its not that. she says we are still finding out.

whats with inviting me to san diego? if we arent kissing deeply theres no way. deep kiss leads to spooning leads to bed. she knows this already, she knows once she goes over the line a little i win. hmmm. yep. thats it she is afraid if she gives in without being certain she will compromise, becuase we know each other already the line to being together isnt very thick.

and again last night the end of 12 hours together, yep ends in a hug.

my next move is risky, i hate the moves, i hate this somedays. but.. its whats is true today.

sympathy is isnt her thing, nor is recieving anger. but something has to be done, or its just going to drift away, this i told her: "if we dont talk, if we dont confront what might be in the way we will not find anything here. it would be very cool to have things start over, but if we dont do anything nothing will happen and it will be lost"

so we learned that she trusts me to look after the feelings.

she now has her kid for three weeks straight. i need an idea of what to do as a signal to scare her.

well i think actually i know. she is softer and knows she has been lazy, she has had all the control. if she sees the fact that i waited until she was with her kid she will be mad, very. because there is a limited ability for her to even think about dating.

she is much more reserved then she used to be. i know her facial expressions and many times i saw she was thinking very deeply, i asked whats on your mind and she made stuff up. i dont know if the ex is the problem here or not, if i am the second choice. he goes to chile now for a month to see his girl. he has been treating my ex like crap, which may be what i have to do her ex is the reason she has the kid for three weeks straight instead of week on week off.

if you can believe this she honestly doesnt know "consciously" that she is taking me for granted.

so sometime this week i will tell her that if i dont see something from her, i am going to start dating. i have stayed in it as best i can but im not seeing anything from her that says romance or desire for it. i cant make you want me, and its nice to be wanted. and that i dont have any plans yet nor looking for sex but...

we got together today. went to the amusement park.

i ride motorcylces at 150mph but rollercoasters freak me out, so today i went on all the most messed up ones. i know she loves these so it was good for us both. as usual we had fun and as usual she was non physical except for hitting and punching.

we got back and took naps on separate rooms. predictable.

after we went out to dinner and then we talked. well i talked, i said if we are dating its time we started to communicate.

i said i am prepared for rejection i will accept whatever you have to say and not judge you for it. the reason for this is if people cant voice thier concerns without fear they hold onto them, by her letting them out she can let them go if thats whats to happen.

she did not say friends, she said she is letting things grow at their own pace, i said i understand. so i told her the one that i didnt think she saw coming. that at one point i had fallen out of love with her, that i still loved her but wasnt "in love". this has been her big sticking point. she wants to be sure passion will be there.

i told her i had to go back to the disappointments, hurt, needs not being met and look at them again. and i realised that i had pushed my feelings out with the hurt. that once i looked at not having her in comparison to not getting what i wanted i had my answer. she said she will talk to me again about it after a week of excercising that her self esteeem is really low, and she hates how she looks, maybe after some excercising that will bother her less. hmmm, i kinda get it. but overall another emotional dodge (her way with everyone)

she wanted to know when and how i had fallen out of love, this upset her. i played it very cool. i said it wouldnt had served to tell you at the time, that i still loved you and that was enough. that i knew i had to look at it to solve and i did.

she invited me to go to san diego with her and her son in may. this would be three days at least. i had planned camping but this will do.

we are touching more but still not kissing.

we went to the movies and saw the jim carrey movie about erasing an ex from your mind. talk about the right movie.

again i couldnt tell you whats happening. if you see something tell me. she is naive i think about the whole thing, we are either building a relationship that is so damn solid based on trust or she really is trying to make into the feel good buddy.

i told her she could spend the night, she said she wanted to drive home, well at least she got to feel the awkwardness herself now. not being in my bed and not sleeping in the house.

i may have a bad a day tomorrow we'll see. this is all very strange.

i feel that i have taken a lot from the site. so perhaps it time that i shared what i learned too. i do respond to others posts but i think we forget to share outcomes and growth that comes. both of which help tell the real story and if the goals are about getting someone back or growing, well its good information.

patience is important for a couple reasons i know now. it allows time to take effect to get normal, having normal reactions, normal feelings, normal sense of self. by waiting out the swing door of emotional devestation, hope and loss I have become who i was and more. i learned.

patience allows me to watch and see whats real and not what i want to see.

patience keeps me from making mistakes or jumping too soon.

patience in its other form, silence and withholding emotions is sexy because it looks like aloof. and it implies a level of emotional balance. (whether true or not)

personal strength is important because without it i cant use the patience to any meaningful effect. the rebuilding of my self esteem came from acceptance of my situation, that i have no power beyond what I can do. so choose those things wisely.

acceptance is important because how i act based on what i see and how strong emotionally i feel must be based on reality. if i dont accept whats real then my actions are not in response to whats real its coming from hope, longing, anger and frustration. and bound to fail because it probably isnt what the situation called for.

this leads to where i am today. i go to continue to seduce a rock. dont get me wrong i think everything i have done should have lead to reconcilliation by now. heres what i have done

- no contact in first months - i let her call i did not

- learn how to regain their heart - i read

- i removed negatives in my interactions for now

- i stroked and supported but i also just showed up and had fun

- i do not talk about my feelings

- i have been changing the things that i know were wrong for me and her

- i have spent a lot time trying to understand her needs

- made a list of my needs and how they could be addressed, but i dont bring them up yet.

- i move slowly based on where she is in her comfort zone

- i act when it seems right, physical contact, kissing, etc.

- i withdraw when she seems to be taking me for granted

- i do not withdraw obviously (no harsh or final words), i just dont call, but the i am excited in my tones when she does.

- i excercise and try very hard to stay emotionally grounded.

- i dont let her see the pain i went through

- i try to bring new, different and exciting things to dates and getting together. i avoid the same old same old.

- i make myself smile

- i listen better

so take heart, i cant fault my approach. as i said this i believe would work in many situations. but that acceptance part? thats in there in any of our situations, fact is sometimes the other person is done, we can get them to compromise and even get back together but if it is done prematurely it wont last.

my situation? i still have good days and bad. for her the romance may never happen because she is emotionally "removed" so there are three plans remaining at this point:

1. seduce her over time, take the risk of being the friend to be more. her comfort zone is very large now, good and bad. she could take me for granted, so i am still sending messages of you could lose this every so often. this plan does allow for her to take me for granted, so it requires me to be very clear about whats ok and whats not, no kisses is not, sleeping over is ok, but not on the couch.

2. just go for it, this is the most dangerous. it means i try to seduce her with physical attention and expereinces, the downside is if she has a bad reaction it could be clear as a bell for us both. this plan does not allow for the slow rediscovery of feelings.

3. talk to her. in my case i am the emotional "understanding" we both relied on my to see what might be wrong and consider perspectives and options. i have removed this one for some time becuase it shows my feelings. but if i use it objectively to address resitant behaviour she is showing then it might work to open doors. the down side is she may react to hearing how she is being seen.

so take heart if you are trying to get someone back. the things i listed above do help, each situation is different, each romance or partnership is unique and built on your combined experiences together. so get clear of your pain, and your loss and obsession. they do not serve you and they do not serve getting someone back. as it says in no contact, this is an opportunity to grow for the relationship or for yourself.

hey.

if you know the story skip this part.

she left in january saying i need time alone, i need time to decide. during that time she called all the time. i had to actually ask her not to for a week while i looked for work.

i know that i blew it not committing and moving in twice over the three years. she knows she blew it by not expressing her needs better.

so she came back and said lets date, but i see you more as friends. lets go on some dates and see.

so i have been working on me very hard. showing up for her, trying to make things fun, keeping conversation to nothing about the relationship, except to say i need her to show interest or what are we doing?

this is sooo hard to have less than half of what i had. i am in fear now. she is not dating anyone else. (trust me i know). we haev fun together but the longing is very hard, we barely kiss, she invites me to stay over on the couch, she does include me in many things with her and her son. but it feels all wrong.

she is not a "feeler" so she is just winging it. but she is not moving from her spot, tomorrow we are supposed to go to a theme park to "add excitement" but my feelings of not being wanted are big now. its not so much self esteem as i dont deserve so little of what i once had.

we are actually in some ways much closer, we are wrestling a lot, hitting, and i have massaged, light kisses, lots of flirting.

but her attitude is indifferent it seems. kind of cocky, wont reassure me, etc, etc.

heres the question: is there some middle ground between being a doormat and walking away. or is it time to place my needs on the table and say if you cant, you cant, but i cant do it this way.

ideas?

i thought i would write it down while its still fresh and in my head so i dont have to keep it there.

i havent been posting as much. which is a good sign. im beginning to run under my own steam again, i need and want the perspectives but i also find its good sometimes to not be thinking about it all the time.

things are changing. got a job today, its funny this economy has taken a lot of people out the game in many ways. if you are struggling with this too my thoughts are with you.

i started off very angry yesterday, and knowing i would see her, i was afraid or happy that i would express my frustration.

i cant tell you if i am winning or losing the game with my ex. she is not revealing any feelings at all. but things have changed.

mostly i think ive changed, im still smoking but i am stronger than i was and i can respond in most situations with her without worrying about it.

i set out with a goal or two and then play it by ear. i helped her move some stuff yesterday. there was a lot of punching (taps) going on and wrestling. i think maybe since she isnt talking and im not talking its her way of communicating right now.

we are very comfortable around each other, but i still have to pay attention. im not sure what her plan is if she has one.

i did a lot different. ended up giving her a massage after wrestling, there was alot more physical contact then usual. lot more strokes, touches etc.

she invited me to stay again, but again the couch or her sons bed. i said did you think its strange that i would not want to sleep on your couch? she said she thought so. so she didnt invite me to sleep in her bed this time, i could have gotten it i think, but bad idea. this is a very slow game. so i said everything in its time, and left.

last night was another big one. she is very very coy, well i went the same route. i went very cool on her at one point, not cold just not talking. and she came in closer.

we have plans for the weekend, its time to add excitement, amusement park or something like it. rides. this will get us to wednesday when her son comes back for a month. the ex is on the """"" list. i dont know why, but he is.

she is much more private then i thought. she tells no one how she feels, i mean no one. i cant believe it. and for once i got to see the edges of that last night, the impact of holding stuff in. she doesnt know how to act sometimes.

i could be winning this, i am much further along then i was. but i hesitate to say how its really going. i dont know what else to say to her right now other then show up and make her show up. i said we're dating right? so whos turn is it? meaning to make a date. this got her more engaged in the planning process.

still this whole thing could just be keeping me in the game. while she does whatever it is she does. i still have given her all the power. and i dont know if thats bad or good if the end result is what i want. she is still cocky sometimes but less so then she was.

the question is can a conversation come from where we are or am i prepared to keep going? since the break up we are now lightly kissing, touching, laughing, etc. or do i pull away again? all very confusing.

I am realising that she will go through any moves. meaning we could sleep together, spend a lot of time together. etc. and not have her committ. my cahnges isnt the only piece. its her feelings.

hmm. i think i need some time to let this all sink in. right now i am the one still "feeling" at least today, she is still under control. very. to recreate she has to feel something. short of walking away which wont work right now, im not sure how to get that to happen.

Well a friend really came after me for dating while this is going on. that i have a woman who is trying to see if we can work it out and im dating. well i can agree on one level. this wouldnt be my first choice.

if she would make some clear sign that this truly an "attempt" to rebuild, ok. but i dont see that. i am close to the "you know you just dont seem to be able to make it past whatever it is. if you want me you know where to find me". but im not there yet.

his comments though do ring a bell for me. am i being true to myself in trying to make something like this work? have i compromised myself so much that both she and i cannot find a common path as long as that is the case?

maybe true. hard to say. and thats been the problem, no talking, i cannot be the one to keep talking. while i havent been talking about "it" i still feel she is not open to a reconcilliation conversation. but i am going to tell her if she wants to talk i will listen.

its not as hard as it was, even bad days are ok. i wish i had a job again and smoking was a non issue.

i am having more fun and interacting very well with everyone in my life, my perspective is better and i laugh a lot more. i do miss her, the one who loves me and wants me. she isnt here at the moment and i dont know if she ever will be.

i know now i cannot push at all right now. i would look like the needy ex boyfriend. so while thursday could be fun, i am going to play to hand i have been dealt. help move the table. stay for dinner, watch for openings then leave.

sigh

the analogy can get even scarier. we recruit "special operatives" (us) to research the targets behavours and patterns to come up with a window of opportuity to "take them down".

if you think about some of the lengths exes go to get an ex back, searching garbage, scouring the computer, going into the house, its not unlike CIA or FBI approaches. eeep. scary.

sorry GeeCee kind of got off track there.

ok im processing really fast now. finding the job again is well um job one.

meeting their needs, meeting their conditions BEFORE they will reconcile is absolutely it. (thanks athena)

so i will now go slow again. help out with the move, not ask to stay over. actually if/when she asks. ill say maybe go slow? perhaps there will be other times.

im realising dancing is good, dates are good. but that isnt whats going to win her. its the picnics, the time at her home with her son, ME being there. participating as a partner. we cook together, we clean together. we play together. thats the platform that "in love" will be rebuilt on. those are her real long term needs, a home, a family. man it takes time to figure it out. now i have to rethink what a date like that looks like. hiking and board games, and massage.

i will ask for a kiss perhaps in exchange for moving stuff, to remind her of the end goal. and be sauve about it. and perhaps the offer a massage. i have to play to where she is at. and right now she will be reserved, she doesnt want to show too much.

the smoking is a pain. i have to find a way to do this.

well i gave myself a break from thinking about this, got busy and starting just "feeling" what this felt like. its kind of unacceptable.

the cards really are still all hers. yes she makes little steps. then she makes little steps back. passive aggressive to the max. i know smoking is a big part. and i still am. i try but the tension, anger level, and frustrations just pop out. i think i need to talk to her about that and that its hard knowing i may lose my temper at the wrong moment (not normally my style).

but about thursday. its time for a change up. she will expect me to want to stay, she i think is seeing sunday as just doing me a favor becuase i was tired NOT creating a normal thing. so i will not stay. i will tell her that a massage is her penalty for my help, when she feels comfortable, and after i will go home. if she asks didnt you want to stay? i will say entirely up to you.

this is the week without her son, so as hard as it is. i have to not say anything about dates. leave it in her court. let her be alone again, let her live with her decision as it stands and how she sees me. her decision is a couple of dates to see. ok, that means not me as a regular support mechanism. i also think its time for a hint that i might be doing other things. dont know yet about how to do that.

she will then have him for a month solid. this time period is critical. i think its also the way to get to her. based on sunday she became much more open around her son. so camping is a very very good idea. it getting that to happen that is the task.

Hi GeeCee

i was thinking about you and your situation. i love that "situation" when did romance become a "stituation"? is this where we all meet in the "situation room" underneath some government building and the "target" is up on the screen as the cia operative gives his or her background?

seriously though. bluntly cause I know you can handle it

you are as impatient as I am,and thats ok, this stuff is important to us. im realizing in my case that this may take a month or two to resolve into what i want, or not happen.

the steps if you choose to play the game are slow and yeild small results at first. there is no promise of recconcilliation, so at times it can be unbearable and just make you want to pitch the whole thing. I cant tell you what you should do about staying in the game or not.

but i can say that either one means patience (dont you love that?) in other words both routes stink. but i went from no hope to something that i can work with for now. its the patience and not putting too much investment in each step as an expectation of outcome or results. take solice in one of two end goals. you stronger and able to let go, the other perhaps hes back.

but no false hope and no non hope either.

I hope i am not sounding preachy. i just think of you, i like you and i want to see you happy.

well mi already regrouping.

ive decided that i will find a way to bring my bike or have an exit plan. NO PRESSURE TO STAY. she will have to ask. if she says didnt you want to stay. ill just say, i was kidding, if you are inviting me i think it would be fun.

the question is then how to play it out. a night in bed together is ok even if its just non sexual. the couch is out. and my reaction should be definitely along the lines of "not ok" to buddied. and she should feel that it isnt a good idea to offer that.

the massage i will rethink over time as i reguage her mood that night. lets face it i want to make her horny and want nothing. absolutely.

and yes i will get busy again.

Kind of feeling alone out here......

feedback?

yeah im having amoment. im realising i was overthinking again. that i could have left it at i was unprepared to be asked to stay, it caught me off guard. it just felt so good yesterday to be so close to what i want.

saying should i bring my toothbrush was a push, and yeah exposes my feelings. i hope she is at the right point for this, else she may withdraw again.

its funny to be able to make the right decision in the moment, then freak after. i was afraid that if she and i laid next to each other, i might blow it. so it was a good call. hopefully we can recreate those conditions again.

i have to be flexible, again. sigh. the changes are what will lead to committment. i have to remember that. and of course her letting down her guard. but those are driven by change, not my wants or needs. time to chill out.

well i took a chance to just do communication.

i called about moving stuff for thursday and then told her i had really great time. that i was unprepared to stay over. she said well you looked so tired, i said well should i bring a toothbrush thursday>? she said if you want.

i know a little exposed. but i wanted to keep her thinking positive if she had taken last night bad. it does show "a little" push from me, but i think it also takes the pressure off.

i think i need to get busy again, this is the most thinking i have done in a week. and i dont like it. i dont want to blow it by analyzing or being in my head too much, or by wanting reassurance, at a time when there isnt a lot to be had.

my changes, the ones she needs have to be locked down.

a friend gave me the next step without even knowing it. one friend said hey its time you two went away. i said well its this week is that only option but its too soon. after that she will have her son for a month solid.

he said go camping. thats soooo perfect its silly. the last great moments we all had, all three of us. was camping in the fall. so i can casually bring it up thursday. she loves camping.

Thanks Daisy

my only concern now is a trivial one. well of course the larger one of will this happen. but this one is based on history.

i used to leave. when i was frustrated with no sex. i sometimes would drive home and not stay at her house. now under current circumstances i can see no wrong with saying thats a little too buddies for me, and saying but ask me again, and leaving.

she called today and was very very flat, very tired. she said she couldnt fall asleep. i slept like a baby, becuase for the first time in a long while i felt good after being together.

but what do you think? should i have taken that opportunity, which of course is now passed. but do you think that might have upset her?

well, i cant waste too much time on it. but should i say something like "it was very nice for you to invite me to stay. ask me again."

of course i said that the other night. but saying it again before thursday would help me to be ready for that happening and not getting bushwhacked by no invitation.

i will thank her for the invitation for staying over. and pj's sound fine if she asks again. (pajamas). this will help me to know if the invitation is coming anyway. its a fine line here folks, when to withold and when to go forward.

timming timming timming.