rich_1517

no, no one is sick of hearing from you. thats the point of this forum. have hope i know its hard. if you are using god as a tool then ask him to remove the thoughts as they come up. its like addiction our mind goes there like candy.

i dont know your whole story but there is no shame in letting go, even if its a little. give your self time to heal.

a difficult period to be sure. this is the point where people would be thinking "hmm is this worth pursuing?"

not to over think (HAH). but the way she wanted to get together three days in a row this week makes me feel like she was setting up her time off without her son. this when she does ALL her personal stuff, and of course the most likely time to.... yep go on a date. i hate to see her in this light, but i have to honest, if she is looking at me to decide, she is going want comparison..... i thought about this last week too. but all i have to do is remember "she is not my girl, i have options myself"

ok so a low moment, but grrrrrr. what the hell i have gotten myself into. I dont know if i can do the date me date others thing. a family member called it a while ago, he said if you dont press her on a committment she will leave this as ambigous as she can at your expense.

not a glowing review of her i know.

time to get out of the house and head. this is the part where you shut off the mind and become "even" more of that better person. more confident, grounded, attractive etc. increase the loss factor on one hand or be more attractive to someone knew. (they knew what they were talking about when they wrote that part)

Hi guys

i know everyone who has lost someone would want at least the chance to see, to try again. so as you read this know that it may not always be what you truly want. I am taking some time to take stock in my situation.

i am the guy who is experiencing this. i am not a mind reader but i have to listen to some of the words that i have heard from my ex and take them to heart. and to plan around the realities:

the words

break up "this isnt working, i need time to myself"

week after "i need two months to decide"

after two months "i see you more as friend, i may be trying to keep you as friend saying this but lets go on some dates"

mistaken kiss moment "its early for that"

says that "the reason i shut down sexually is my choices in men"

"i want more passion in my life"

the actions:

has called and wanted to get together pretty frequently

has shown a real independance and planning that does not invlove me

is emotionally distant

likes to able to touch me, doesnt show signs of wanting to be touched.

has not brought up relationship or feelings about it "ever"

ok so I try to project out based on how she has behaved to see if i can imagine the two of us together in an intimate situation like we have in the past. i cant see it.

on one hand i see her testing the waters with me, but it feels like friends. we flirt etc. if i were to guess where she is, i would say she is trying to move on, not hurt my feelings by still being around, that she doesnt want to be lonely. that she is thinking next steps but doesnt know what those are.

that may seem like a hard look in a negative light, but it necessary for me to do that. i have to accept that i may have someone who cannot and will not do pain and disappoint for herself or me. she may think she is doing the right thing.

so we are at that moment where things can go a couple ways.

1. she has issued enough cautions that if she dated someone else without telling me she could justify that "well i said we were friends"

2. she could just keep riding this ambigous nutured hanging out for a long time and soak up my attention.

3. she could be really thinking about how to climb the wall back to us.

a lot of guess work combined with real truths. the bottom line is i am now strong enough to walk, and tactics are great but you cannot make someone feel what they dont want.

that said the answer for what i am to do is clear. to become now less available, grow my life without her more, let her call, not me. treat this as over again and start dating but see what she says if/when she calls.

more to follow.

thanks for the support, i really coudlnt be doing this without you guys. you have helped me do something i never would have thought possible in the past.

I have shown up in the face of no hope and no emotions from someone i love. its a level of strength and self respect i have always wanted to get to.

i know that sounds negative. its not. along the way i realised this is about me as much as my wanting her back. but we all know all too well that love and a partner can disapear seemingly on the turn of a switch or feeling or reason.

I have to prepare myself that she may be dating others. this whole time period is as much a test for her as it is for me. meaning i have to take a hard look at who i have chosen.

she may be using this as a spring board to date again. not a happy thought but possible. so now its how much distance, how much aloof?

lets face it her cage needs to be rattled, she has to start knowing that i am not for free, as long as she can take me for granted im screwed.

i have successfully gotten my life pointed in a direction again

i have shown i can change and do new things

i have shut up about feelings and analysis

i look good (stress weight loss is awesome, im joking)

i have been fun and outgoing, supportive and interested in her life

so yes independace from her is now a very good idea. the i dont care whether you want to see me or not attitude. so tactics my friends. the reeling in must be seen to be effortless. ideas?

ok so the evening recap: i cooked fajitas. simple cheap and fun. she lvoed it complimented me. i let her help with some of it.

dinner was nice, we worked on a puzzle after. as usual fun banter back and forth. she was impressed.

we went to salsa and tango lessons, and man i didnt know the difference between being a good dance club dancer and technical dancing! im a pretty good smooth dancer, but the structure was messing me up. she on the other hand doesnt improvise well but is teachable so she did fine.

bottom line is we had fun, i was relaxed a little more distant and self contained.

after she wanted to go to coffee, i was hesitant then agreed. we both talked about it being a lot of fun. during dancing a couple of times she was going for very intimate eye contact and flirty with me, i smiled back.

she dropped me off, i hugged her goodnight and made no mention of next steps. i expected to be sad when i got in. i wasnt.

then she called wanting to chat on her way home, i played along knowing she has a forty minute drive ahead of her. then cut it off after a little making sure she was awake enough.

so the upshot? i was fun but aloof. not touching, even though she was as times. no kisses. no mention of future dates, but the kind of closeness going on seems like we will be talking real soon.

so now its how i play it from here. i could let things keep growing and getting closer.

i am thinking about her less and staying in my own space more, meaning i dont feel overly nervous or exposed. i suppose if she starts to suggest things its time to keep going, we are very close. suggestions welcome.

and yes rich did very good tonight. i feel like me again. even if it went bad i still would feel this way.

there is something to be said for showing up in the face of not getting what you want emotionally, its healing. difficult yes but very character building.

eeep! listen the quitting smoking stuff is great. yes its the gum.

but i just had a thought. what if we have a great time and she says, so whats next? meaning next date.

jeez i have been so busy being negative i havent thought about this one.

i guess my mood is anti right now, hmmm. time for overhaul again

ok Dikaia you are on, sunday it is. im using niccorrette becuase smoking on the patch is a death sentence for addiction. makes it ten times harder.

hmm doesnt she know already whats in my head? a marriage proposal and being willing to show up for "just dates" isnt exactly stealth.

or are we talking about just a change in behavior on the long haul. be less available? it still seems something is in order words wise.

i know her pretty well, she wouldnt read into my actions for a while. she would just be complacent.

as i said she is not the "go getter" she had to hang around me for three months solid until i would move in her again originally. came to my house to "vist" her co-worker, my roomate.

any "tricks" will fall short, on that shes pretty smart. she is the immovable object unless she is going to lose something.

there must be a way to communicate that without communicating it. the only thought that crosses my mind is another woman.

the other is to be direct

and of course just act. be less interested after the date. just say good night, hug and go home. but while on it have a blast.

well we are on the same page. the bottom line being that while the perception of me being able to be taken for granted exists, romance cannot happen.

im not sure just being unavailable changes that. it seems like some words need to be spoken about my change in position.

while i fully understand that actions and seduction, not words are the key in most situations, she can be very aloof. she does respond to my words and the idea that this wont last may be essential to turning her waking up her complacent atttitude.

i will think on it, i still have time. feel free to argue with me.

she is being ambigous, non comittal, wanting fun and passion but with someone she can absolutely take for granted. that would be me.

im am considering the following pretty strongly, this would come during dinner, in my oh so subtle manner:

"you know, (pause thoughtfull) how are you going to find any passion with someone you can take for granted? (jokingly).

i think we need a change of venue. the fact is im taking romance unlike the rest of my life day by day, i have no plans anymore and the mystery has reentered my life.

but i get the feeling that you see me as too available, wheres the romance in that? not real inspiring dont you think? (again jokingly and plaintviely, its seduction).

what good are my tools of seduction and positive traits if you dont have to work to get them?

so i have two suggestions, let go or start seeing me as a temporary kind of distraction. meaning i love to get together and its fun. it may be perhaps that you need to see, as i do, that there is a time limit on this, that a time will come when im not here anymore and the momories are what we will have left. hey they are good memories.

but it is very important to me that you not take me for granted, i would hate for it too become clear in the wrong way. me just choosing other options as the only way to keep my self respect.

i get it beec, i got that dose last night with the "its early for that" regarding the kiss.

kind of arrogant even if it is an itsy bitsy little otpimistic, jeez i want to shoot myself.

i think i have a better handle on whats happening with her. before she can walk i think she really wants to know that im not the one.

im a pretty good catch in all humilty. im good looking, very nurturing by nature but self directed (most of the time), my needs are not huge, but im fun, making people laugh is my favorite thing to do. and relationship skills (no kidding) are my strong point.

we compliment very well, and i think she knows she may not find that combo easily, especially because she isnt aggressive enough to "go get" what she wants. she also knows i have said i can accept her, and for all her saying that "its my choices that cause my bahviour" i also think she is afraid that she may repeat her emotional hang ups with someone new.

it has to have crossed her mind that i wont wait forever. hence no phone calls or date ideas after tomorrow. let her go out do what she will do, but i may not be around much this weekend.

but you are correct if i read you right, she needs as do i, to see the in control rich who makes sound decisions and can respond. i will now write test reponses for myself.

well its funny. im actually expecting her to blink soon. after tomorrow it will be kind of clear where this is or is not headed.

and frankly i am open to either. i love her a lot but to continue in too much ambiguity is damaging for the collective respect of me.

an advantage i do have is she doesnt feel in real time, so she could go along and just fall back into place without consciouslessly deciding it. meaning her actions precede her decisions around emotions sometimes. which is good when its something positive and wretched when its not.

but if she blinks (pulls back) i will say thats ok, i have showed up as best i can but...... you know the drill.

on the other hand we may both be really trying a go slow and not blow it. she knows she has an upper hand but soon the emotions will come into play and thats my cue to just be me without too much effort above (thats a good thing). much of my changes allow for more fun anyway.

just to let you know the museum date went fine, she is making more contact physically. but blah blah, i have no idea where this is going. i really dont.

she obviously feels comfortable around me, thats very clear.

she wants more details about tomorrow night, i havent told her yet thats its salsa and tango.

i just told her wear something nice you can move in.

but of course i am still frustrated at the pace, what is going on here, does she know, does anyone know? and what is the cost?

i am actually having fun now on these dates. but i am coming into a week when she doesnt have her son. i will not be asking for more dates yet, i will wait.

now that is an interesting thought. hide them from myself, becuase its not in my best interest.

I know before anyone says it that was pressure, i was pretty certain that she had tried and i stopped her. but enough. i know that for anyone its difficult to get close to someone who may be nervous or overthinking, hell its impossible AND unattractive.

each day i get more grounded, case in point i felt comfortable enough to ask.

but i ceeded a lot power to her, in my head and in the world. the temptation to walk to relieve my own tension is high. i wonder what its like for her?

a funny side note about it. i planted the thought "we should kiss" in the most innoucous way. will be interesting to see what effect that has. yeah yeah no pressure.

Beec -> her morning client cancelled so she can go the gallery. hmmm. so either i tell her work just got harder or i show up even more fun, just let loose (not nervously) just show that "what question?" and move on with the date.

the path i see most clearly right now is hang in there, and yes "not yet" is better than "never" but i know what it is, its the smoking i am still stubborn and feel i have put so much on the table "What do you want from me" is happening so i bought nicorette. and will show i am trying. the patch would kill me if i smoke during, im addicted, but willing to try.

So think happy thoughts about 10:30 -12:00 PST put a real prayer in there that rich can be the man he knows he is, and perhaps today a little more. becuase if i do walk or she does i want to know i was at my best and not a wreck.

Cheers

I have to say this. ex's dont cause pain, we choose to turn loneliness and missing them into pain. its just how it is.

we also choose to chase and hang on. wait let me say that first person. i have chosen to pursue and to hang on. many have told me this would turn out fine if i would just hand her her walking papers in a nice way, maybe two months ago. well thats not the choice i made.

i decided to give my heart pretty much inconditionally (at least to her) and i think i have made her feel pretty good.

games or no games, my self esteem has returned to such a point that i am willing to risk upsetting her with an ulitmatum soon. its who we were, we did not take each other this for granted in the relationship, while the words werent always great we at least said something about self preservation.

so i will ride the winds a little longer. the words would be something like this

"its time (name), i have shown up as best i can to regain your love, im tired. its been many months since you showed a real strong feeling about us. i understand i played a big part of in that and i have tried to find a way back to the us we knew.

i can no more make you love me, then you can turn me into a friend. i am finding that with things are they are the potential for you to take me for granted and loss of respect is significant enough that i cant ignore it.

there is still a chance but it will have to be both of us wanting it. and if that cant happen thats ok too, i love you enough to let you find your own way, but i will have to begin letting go.

I know what i want and if its not with you then i have to consider other options."

well its funny. sometimes facing defeat gives clarity.

i called her and said "is everything ok?" she said she s fine.

i didnt probe i just asked if she felt she could tell me if she wanted to. she said of course.

i then said listen if the museum date is to tight we dont have to do it, its no big deal. she said no i want to get together.

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

i have come this far, and there has been no date yet, this would be the first "real" date. so i will try to chalk the distance etc, to two nervouse tigers feeling out their prey.

as i said reading her is tough, but i will do a couple things. date two will have to be her idea, or planned by both. i need some sign. so i will give the next two days my all, and then if nothing strategic withdrawl.

continue your thoughts, suggestions, ideas. remember i am not always clear when i post, i wax with the feelings. and... she is unemotional by nature.

fact is i could really work her over by guilt, etc and get what i want that way or abandon her and say i dont really want to talk. she is blind sided by this kind of thing. but i dont like using those tools, its not my way. but some part of it might be. IE: backbone. read "listen i still care about you but this doesnt seem to be something you want, i gotta go."

no deep feelings, just a calm dismissal.

well its funny. sometimes facing defeat gives clarity.

i called her and said "is everything ok?" she said she s fine.

i didnt probe i just asked if she felt she could tell me if she wanted to. she said of course.

i then said listen if the museum date is to tight we dont have to do it, its no big deal. she said no i want to get together.

i will see friday through which is dinner and salsa lessons (thanks beec)

i have come this far, and there has been no date yet, this would be the first "real" date. so i will try to chalk the distance etc, to two nervouse tigers feeling out their prey.

as i said reading her is tough, but i will do a couple things. date two will have to be her idea, or planned by both. i need some sign. so i will give the next two days my all, and then if nothing strategic withdrawl.

continue your thoughts, suggestions, ideas. remember i am not always clear when i post, i wax with the feelings. and... she is unemotional by nature.

fact is i could really work her over by guilt, etc and get what i want that way or abandon her and say i dont really want to talk. she is blind sided by this kind of thing. but i dont like using those tools, its not my way. but some part of it might be. IE: backbone. read "listen i still care about you but this doesnt seem to be something you want, i gotta go."

no deep feelings, just a calm dismissal.

i post my name so that you can ignore the story if you choose. read earlier posts if you want background, be warned it waxes optimistic and depressed depending on the timeline and circumstances.

I am really sad. we met for coffee, i know i am tense and trying to cover it up, make jokes, but i see her distance again and lack of interest and its really hard. what am i doing? for that matter what is she doing?

shes back to hugging with no kiss, she is so removed and well not disrespectful but there is no magic here going on. we enjoy the company but we are both tense.

i am still smoking (her number one) but have been reluctant to agreesively try to quit with this, new job, etc going on all at once.

i am ready again to try something different. perhaps the only way to win her respect and interest is to walk away. its not like i havent tried. I have proposed, gave her space, didnt call, showed up in the face of being friends now seven times for many hours and been fun, outgoing, etc.

but this doesnt seem to be working. her reservations and resolve seem solid and its painful to watch. to be so close and no closer.

fact is i dont think my being available is making this work. i dont know if any amount of dates will change her heart. she doesnt look at me with much in her eyes anymore.

i dont like it but maybe its time to let go, maybe im wrong and if you can see it from the other side of this screen tell me. but to show up with nothing for her to chase at all seems to not be the path. there may be no path she may truly have fallen out of love.

if you understand the loving cup, hers may have spilled too many times in silence and just be empty.

i dont like the game anymore i want to talk to her openly and hoestly about needing closure or moving on together. thoughts?

im realising that now i am moving more deliberately. this is a good thing.

the process of clearing out anger and resentment, hurt and loss are almost complete. the remainder is the knowledge of giving away power and that the only method i have to deal with that. is to be self determined.

so todays intention with regards to myself first and her second is to do just that. my actions will be around taking care of the details of my life, to not respond "too" eagerly to invites (we are goind coffee today, museum tomorrow and dancing friday).

things will now proceed at their own pace. she enters a week of not having her kid, this will be interesting. i have to stay busy and not imagine what she is doing with her "free" time. it is essential that she knows that i dont care what she does with this time (though i do).

reconnecting with friends going bowling, playing golf (yes its warm here). continuing to work out, etc. the next contact after this much contact i will have to determine after fridays date.

there is no easy to way to take back what has been freely given, while the chase aspect (of me) can only be implied by the idea of the loss of me, i must reinforce that subtely to let her know she will have to act at some point and taking me for granted would be a "bad" idea. i hate to say but i have to play to her insecurities some to achieve this.

Wow, well thats definitely a nice romantic date. When i see the moment i will take it. i am very good cook and massage is my favorite pastime.

im glad you all are having fun, the monotony of feelings can get old.

she has agreed to a date saturday. i have never done anything even remotely like this. to try and re-seduce someone i have had a long relationship with, who is hesitant. its hard to keep the confidence up.

I have been a fairly successful gentleman, and the idea of high school nerouvsness about a date with someone who has walls is um, hard.

i wanted to lock saturday up now but also to include my approach of "i can surprise you or if you want we can plan it together, i want to be sure we do something you like" she said you know what i like.

when i first asked about saturday, she said she wasnt sure, that she may have something going on. man does that sting, i have to remember that i am "dating" and her time is not our time. as i said she can blow hot and cold. i want to ask if she is dating, but let me guess no i cant ask?

now remember i am using this forum to vent my fears so read between the lines here:

i am nervous and afraid. she said when we talked about dating - she said "i see you more as friend" - "i may have a motive to keep you as a friend" - "either one of us can break this off". very under control woman.

but this all comes back to: do i walk this path confident in the outcome, not be daunted by her reserve and focus on the goal?

my gut tells me that her concerns and the passage of time will make it now easier to just let go... that we have been down this road and she will just let it drop.

strategy could say time to get her attention by disappearing, let her date others and wonder where i went. i cant shake my lack of confidence in this working out sometimes, i am stuck on doing anything aggressive either way becuase i feel her seeming lack of interest. i know that sounds weak, but i still have those moments.

how the hell do i win this girl over?

nice call....... hadnt thought of that. sweet.

i um stand corrected on a blatant faux pas. GeeCee, apologies. so that would make you two, yup thats right. BeeGee's

hmmm, the date. i was thinking i would make dinner, take her to jazz. salsa may be a little to soon, she would feel awkward. but physical is important so after Jazz a walk around the city, the clubs are in a great area.

option 2. working on it will post.

ceecee -> beec you should group post as ceebee. im so happy you two are blossoming on my post. i feel all "sticky"

neallo nice to have your input too.

thanks team

LOL - ceecee wil you date me?

nah we both know too many tricks now, of course that could make it interesting.

i have been looking into salsa already.

ok fair enough, not maybe the games so much letting go but the guard? but the thing that cannot change is always seduce until you are dead.

i am realising that i am still trying to exert control over a situation i am not fully in control of.

I can seduce, i can use self control and all my other powers of seduction and attraction. but.... in the end its about two people.

perhaps i should have kissed her last night. maybe not planned a lunch date and let her suggest something.

the point is she is now showing some signs of accepting me and i have to let her play a part as well to not do so would cause this to slip away i think.

im not a hundred percent on this but it feels right. to move into the space where we both can connect. let things unfold with help of excitement but also be open to what she may offer.

who knows she may feel rejected for no kiss and resent me today, this is a diifficult game i have chosen to play.

for the saturday date (fi she accepts) i will aim for something mysterious (any ideas?) i need something that shows fun, intimacy, and passion. one thought is comedy or theather, and making dinner at my house or hers.

finances are a factor, not becuase i am short but because cheap fun is more appealing to her, and shows her i can do it

keep it coming. ceecee and others. i learned to use this board to "dump" my worst fears and greatest hopes, because neither work in a situation like this. i have been buying time to get back into my own skin and confidence level.

yes she has changed a lot in a very short time. but remember she can be very ambigous and send mixed signals before she even knows what she wants. im not kidding. at week three she spent 5 hours with me took me a really nice restaurant and then said "im still deciding".

that aside ceecee you are correct there is a time to respond to whats clearly being offered and she may not think about the fact that she has sent mixed signals before.

Beec the museum date is lunch, very short. i still want to do a saturday day/evening date or if too close together then punt museum.

I will be able to "truly" enjoy whats happening when i have an idea of what is happening. but i am relaxed enough to have fun in the moment and question want next here.

her reserve and reasons for "friends" still holds me back some, i have to ignore it.

the timming, and perhaps ceecee if i read you right and Beec, is there will come a moment when the rules, the games, etc all go away. and yes i am planning for that. a moment when we just connect.

the advice i need is how to win this one, all the way. my mood, confidence is less an issue, its more about reading the signs and making the right moves to make it happen.

Hi i put my name in the post so if you are bored you can ignore it.

i have been using this forum to process out my more extreme feelings so they dont interfere with the goal. to get the girl back. it is effective and produced some interesting responses.

where things are:

my "ex" and i have been seeing each other more regularly, right now its around her son becuase she has him this week. but some real changes.

she is touching me more, now kisses when hugs (light side of mouth). but big change. has come up and given me back rubs unasked for. is saying "we can this, and we can do that" IE: future planning.

the only caution in that is that she has said "i see you more as a friend right now, but lets date and see, you have changed so much".

so my confidence, flirting and ease are in place i am the guy she knows to be attractive and appealing. i am being supportive, fun, and leaving early not talking about feelings etc.

when i left last night i waved her over to a more "out of view" spot in the kitchen, she thought i was ready to kiss and puckered up, but i said "you wrote in my birthday card that our dates will be an adventure" i then said "lets make them adventure"

I am being a little aloof about touching or kissing her because she has sent mixed signals before when she had not changed her feelings. my take is that i must get her to drop her defenses and resitance to the "idea" of being with me again before i get smoochy.

so this leads to the questions:

i am planning "real" dates now which cant happen until her son is with his dad at the end of the week. we are going to the art museum on thursday.

saturday is my target for date 2.

so she knows already i want to marry, that i love her, etc. what would be suggestions at this point to create the tension of if she doesnt move on this she may lose me?

how much distance should i put in? meaning i dont want to call everyday, and actually leave time for her to call with ideas of what to do.

should i do some obvious "unavailable" moves like, i would love to come over but i have plans then, rats, how about this time?

the big fear with her is that she could be recruiting a friend in me and that even kissing etc, could be a method of keeping me (im not kidding). i feel that real romance must blossom first before any abortive or short "hit and run" sex happens.

I will do massage, etc to begin physical recontact when its right. but i do want your input and ieas about how to win her heart. thanks -> cheap date ideas welcome too.