rich_1517

rewrote this section.

suggestions for anyone even thinking about being in this situation.

be careful dating others, it triggers upset with that delicate balance of emotions we are trying to maintain. the possibilities of closeness, affection etc. from someone new make me miss her more, and brings the loss to front.

the idea alone is making me want to contact her to get clarity. my friend and my brother think its time for that anyway. they see me struggle, but i havent talked about this to anyone except here in over a month. nice huh?

i found that not recycling the obsessing verbally makes it easier to keep it at bay.

arrgggh, new wrinkle, i had expected to tell her the computer had to go to the shop. well i frigging fixed it. rats. i gave her this laptop last year and this year upgraded a burner/dvd drive. and burnt the video card. took me till now from christmas to fix it. dont ask, and dont ever mess with your video card.

thanks you guys are fast becoming people i have a fondness for and trust. its not quite the full dinner but it is a light snack that gets me through.

well i begin my three day weekend. and i feel pretty good since the other ex, wants to see me. that feels good. i have tomorrow to make it either saturday or sunday with her, so the current ex has time to lock up a date.

i have decided that her stopping by to surprise me was a reach for her. Daisy reminded me that she is extremely cautious. this is that part where my conditions must match the reality of my needs and the other person.

so i will send a friendly email tomorrow am. saying it was nice to see her, letting her know about her computer. and thats it.

the actual conversation?

i am sorely tempted to push a little, and say "you know you want something with me but you dont know what. we have had three years together and we havent gone a week since breaking up without talking at least once, more like twice. you have doubts about where the passion lies, and that separates friendship, respect and partner. i know that you know that. i would just like to say, in my experience the reason you say its not there may not be the reason you say it is for you. "

and leave it to see if she says what do i mean? understand something this is where i shine, verbal communication and relationship skills are my forte, but i hesitate to use them in my own relationships because it places me outside. i would say this is a good place to use them. But... i cannot pressure or tell her to change. it must be in the form of a question.

the whole comment about passion is a danger zone, because she will be defensive no matter what, in her eyes its either wrong guy or shes bad with xxx, and intimacy. i will propose that there is another path, and another way to see it. friends or not, lovers or not there is a solution for her.

thats not quite it i will edit it later.

but i will keep some communication open, if there is no call for the weekend, then i seriously have to consider this is a longer "get used to not having me" unfortunately she may have already, she just may be really sad about that fact. and that much i do know.

you go team. man thats just about where i have been emotionally. want to push the red button, then say hmmm, is there still room to play here?

you like my posts i suppose i will have to go back to the beginning and watch the progression, great study for abnormal psych. but all things considered i cannot fault my actions very much through this whole thing.

heres a new wrinkle. the ex from three years ago? the "other choice" that i didnt take. i have been thinking, wow i have approach this careful she may still be mad. she cleared her weekend and said how about saturday night, LATE?

eeekkk. this could be hard, i dont want to confuse myself, but boy could i use some attention right about now. dangerous. thoughts about that?

the only problem there Beec is her premises, they arent addressed by me.

i can see what you are saying keep it simple dont overcomlicate or bring too much analysis into it.

but the passion thing needs to be said, she does trust my perspective on things and there has to be some doubt about that concept. if there isnt then she is definitely not for me, it shows a lack of emotional accountability.

in effect its saying, i do nothing to create this uncomfortable reality i live in, its just my choices in who brings things out in me is bad.

i need to see if there is possible movement on that, if there isnt i know what i am dealing with.

man this is tough. i go from just wanting her to call me for a date to ultimatums. damn.

hmmm. on one level i think to the past. each time i have felt that its unbearable, she calls. and i respond.

but what i am thinking now may be too bold.

she has said two things that are barriers to becoming closer again.

1. "i see you mostly as a friend. i may be trying to keep you as a friend."

2. "i want more passion in my life, my choices in men have been the reason it fades."

well without getting too angry, i think its time to hit those head on and take the risk. its goes like this:

i think you need to look at your motives about me, you may need to go sometime without any contact, maybe see other people or do whatever you have to, to see what yout true feelings are.

this is no different then what you needed two months for. and its almost impossible for me to know how to treat you. our dates would have a lot more clarity and less pressure to them if you did.

if its friends i will need time to let go of my feelings for you as more.

you said you think your passion disapears becuase of your choices. i can understand that i can. time with someone can affect how much passion there is positive or negative.

Its been my experience that if love exists and friendship as well as respect, passion is on a good footing. especially if you are with someone passionate.

i have had times in my life where passion died down, and with someone else too. but it wasnt them. it was me, it was me not feeling the other things that make personal passion real, joy, sorrow, etc. i know thats not a comfortable topic for you, but you have said you want more passion in your life. when i realised that for myself, thats where i had to go. I could not get it just from partners. but i did learn from them.

romantic passion is different in my opinion, its from nurturing it, creating mystery and excitement. and thats where i think you and i got off track. but i am not you so i cannot say.

now i am saying a lot here, but one thing is clear i am not begging, i am not pressuring. i am saying go if you do not know what you want with me. we cannot "date" as long as you have no idea what you want from me.

As i said bold, risky but direct and maybe what i need.

no wi know what you will say, conditions for reconcilliation have to come from them first. but how can they if what i think i see is true? thsi is where i am hung up and feel direct may be appropriate.

on the other hand letting her miss me, may be the first best shot. its just scary as hell to have someone who is operating under what i see as "different perspective" meaning one that i dont agree with but have to accept that she believes it. as long as she does i cannot overcome those walls.

Honestly Beec,

this is the hardest part now. the waiting and guessing if i am taking the right approach.

to her coffee/lunch may have been a move for her in her eyes and why am i distant?

in her mind she may be hanging in there with me to see if smoking may go. but wont say so becuase then it would have been for her and could come back.

i want to do a small communication. hey coffee was nice, it was good to see you. your computer is going to have to go to the shop. etc. and just leave it at that. am i blowing my game plan of making her miss me and step up>?

arrggghhh. well this would be so much easier as Daisy would say fi the "fear of friends" wasnt there. passion must be restored to turn friend to lover, and that means a sense of loss and fear of losing. damn. tricky tricky.

hhmmm. i know i keep posting a lot, better to do it here then in the real world.

god forbid you are walking in my footsteps. but if you are, heres something i realised.

i look at my conditions currently: i need her to step forward. maybe trying to do lunch was something for her, i need more.

the balance is hard to find. i could come a little way back, a phone call, an email saying hi.

so what i realised is this: we have conditions. but are those conditions appropriate to the situation. some of our conditions are based on getting our feelings taken care of to feel worthy in there eyes again. those are bad. conditions to make them show up in a responsible way to meet our feelings as equals those are good.

im realising that one side of me is thinking boy is she going to have to really want me! not good. boy i want her to make a clear enough move that i can do something better with this. good.

ahhh another thought. she may be waiting out changes. IE: smoking and diet coke.

that may explain the coolness saturday night. then again maybe not. the fact is im trying, this cant all be me. i have never done anything like this.

she is so "non" discussion oriented about problems or situations that i think she is getting a chance to see the down side of the that. becuase i dont talk about it now. so nobody talks about it. and thats not good.

if she thinks she and i can have a relationship like one of my past exes she better ask me about it. the one who i have a bond with we; didnt talk for a year and half, and then after that, she wanted me back, so she was trying to edge in the door while i was with this girl. after she got the message we went to connecting every six months or less.

so... is she thinking she can really "keep" me in her life as a neutered friend? foolish.

so yeah, she needs to see what that looks like, me not around, me not supporting. this is going to be hard. thats why one side of me says no to a simple date, its too controlled, no risks.

i cant say how i know, but there really is no one she is cultivating actively. there is no one she is carrying on regular conversations with. that may start to change.

oooh now here was a disturbing thought. maybe surprising me for lunch was getting outside her comfort zone. ahhh. i cant think about that but...

some point someone has to start talking to get on the same channel.

go out tonight went bowling. starting to plan tomorrow night and weekend. must stay busy.

Spatz

you do not have to see her. if you know she is seeing someone else and arent ready to be a friend. dont be, and dont feel you have to explain either. abscense my friend is ok.

Damn Daisy,

keep it coming. im going through the i should have done this a while ago phase. they must miss you for you to be valued. wait let me say that the right way.

she has to miss me to value me. many feelings and memories are easy to avoid if she doesnt have me or thinks shes losing me. its been easy to stay strong becuase i have been sooooo available. even when i havent been with NC she still knew i she came back i would take her.

I dont know how much stock to put in yesterday, she really was happy and had wanted to surprise me with lunch, so the slightly resevered rich with no date plans and sure a hug gotta go was a wee bit different.

but ok lets look at this like real dating. two people who dont know each other. me the guy, has called, made dates, come to her house, picnic, museum, dancing lessons, made dinner, stroke stroke.

if one week of not gushing with affection has thrown her from wanting to make a date, then something isnt right.

but i still have to plan both ways (INSANITY HERE) meaning get out, work out, go smile and flirt so im not an angry wreck if/when she does call

so i am sticking to it, she calls im friendly now, make jokes ask how shes doing, but no suggestions from me. if she says do i want to get together, i say that sounds fine "when?" i dont want firday lunch or coffee. i want a weekend date. so anything else, oh shoot, im busy.

but daisy how did you mean both ways? oh, wait i think i got it. when i decide to contact or accept contact make her all warm and runny, then when i am pulling away just be more flat?

hmm.. but yeah when we first got together. i took her on a date, i was busy and seenig someone else and didnt call back after. she came by my house to visit my roomate and said no i wont go out with you again. then came around my house for three months until i would kiss her. so thats the personality.

this may take a while. sheesh.

ok man this is tough. i am really am far enough away to see the damage. my own behaviour, but thankfully it isnt that bad, but i did throw myself out there. theres a reason i feel taken for granted.

but its not that. i dont see her coming back, i just dont its a gut feeling again. she knows what this is what its like with me, it doesnt take magic to decide.

on the other hand, the more i repair myself the more i see me as who i was before all this began. its hard, when she and i met i made a lot of money had a nice place to live and a lot of toys plus my own company.

now i have a decent place to live, i am still struggling to get out of debt. my father has slipped in dementia and is effectively gone. and i have no social life.

all this will pass, but i have to unhook the part that is her for my own sanity.

if she calls i have to be very careful right now. the thing is i really could say if she asks why i dont call "when i do call you get off immediately and act like i am bothering you, you always say i cant talk long, so i dont call."

all very true. but part of me wants to call, to keep a connection going. i cant see the game plan right now. i feel that if i let too much time pass she will just let it go.

how much to pull how much to push. arrgggghhhh. well we'll see what happens. if i dont hear from her by friday i will assume that i wont and implement a two week cut off. followed by a letter.

well i think it may look more like this.

"you know the dates have been fun, but you havent really seemed that interested. i guess you will have to tell me if you are. i have been distant enough now that i can see we are kind of far apart, if you are interested i need to know"

yeah i decided not to keep my own up just yet. you never know who is here.

your welcome. yeah its a fine balance between being there as a friend and there as a passionate partner. thats why i got "love tactics" the idea that you withdraw enough to create longing but not so much that they give up is hard.

i swear it seems its time to start actively making more flirtatious advances, at the same time, its time to make her move some. some would say yesterday was a really good sign. i just dont know. i would be a lot more comfortable with her making some kind of move.

but... i am resolved to hearing "wahts up?" from her. she will sense a change in my behaviour. thats the time for a short chat. just the "you seem like you are going through the motions, not a whole lot of interest.

I like you daisy, you have a good perspective here. thanks

now you are talking. man Beec i was waiting for a post from you.

i have been exceedingly cautious about not "talking" about or around the "thing" perhaps too much so. any relationship or just dating has to have some communication, just a matter of finding where to start.

i will have to think that through. you idea is good, i just have to think about the response im asking for, i guess its yes i want you to be around.

i have thought about it. the you dont seem like you want me around doesnt work. because she does. that would lead to a confrontation about the overall of whats going on.

it might be go through this week, see how she plans it out. i have to resist getting together prior to the weekend for coffee or other so the pressure is on to connect on her week off, not a simple "see me".

but what might come closer and not be too confrontational or expose me too much might be

"you seem sort of bored. like you are just going through the motions of dating, is that accurate or do i have it wrong? i know you value my friendship but when you talk about passion, you sound like you have some idea of what that is for you, do you?"

thoughts?

yeah it kind of stinks. i cant get past saturday night. the "thanks for coming" soon it will be time to ask what her intentions towards me are.

it doesnt have to expose me much. just a "you said you want more passion in your life, what did you have in mind?". a little confrontational but very telling. if she balks at that i have a pretty clear idea.

i cant believe that she could be seriously considering taking my feelings for granted, so i sometimes dont. but i have to be real about this. i want her to want me, we have so much compatability its crazy, but she may be headed elsewhere. i have to emotionally aware of that at all times.

yeah its getting to be time to see something of substance.

at the same time, she has a really hard time making a move so this will be interesting. I have ideas of how to start the party but she has to open the door first.

she literally does not know how to do this stuff, her interpersonal skills in this are abysmal, her problem of being self contained and not wanting to take risks.

ok this is the place where it gets tricky.

i dont want to chase her away by beeing surly or otherwise "unfriendly" so my interactions have to stay warm.

at the same time she needs to get the message that telling me thanks for coming and peck on the cheek aint what i had in mind. meaning she needs to start showing some "romantic" interest, in the form of initiative. a date she suggests, whatever that looks like.

right now i am struggling not to call send some message. i think i need to still let the week pass and prepare for no call. i know that sounds strange, given that she calls a lot but this is a big move for her if she takes it.

i will not tell her im planning to date others. im not actually but this other girl and i have chemistry and i know she likes me.

Yes strong one she has very large walls up.

there are just hugs and no emotionally based discussions. its frustrating.

the things she has said that scare me are repeated "friends" comments.

"i see you mostly as a friend" after break up

"we have to be friends right now" during break up

"how are you and the other ex doing, will you rebuild since she was crappy to you?" recently

but she comes by and calls pretty frequently. and yes i balked on moving in twice. I have since break up offered marriage and to move in.

she is afraid that changes may not stick when i have her back. tha comes from a general comment about change, not something expressed to me.

at the same time i am terrified that she is really trying to keep a friend. she knows that she wont get someone like me in her life again. thats just honest there arent many like me, but she could fall in love with someone else and want someone else.

i need a plan that allows for cutting the friendship to what i can handle (that becomes no contact) or to resotre her respect and wanting me should it go that way.

well i had started a new post but no ones answering. so....

i am trying to take a clearer look at whats going on. but i am realising the most important thing to do right now is take care of me again. i got out of the habit (bad idea). pyscial excercise and the other things i was doing really keeps me grounded and purges the negative stuff.

this weekend is really key. based on yesterday one would think she would call for a date, if we buy that she is trying to see then she should want more at this stage.

or.. she will not. which says something else. hey she needs to take care of herself too, so doing things for her is important. but by friday if she calls again i will have been enough removed that she should be wondering.

im realising that withdraw is a state of being not doing. meaning for me i have want to be somewhat withdrawn for my actions to reflect that. its important becuase too faked and i use anger as a tool internally, or other ways to be "less" wanting her.

yes she keeps calling to do things, yes she came to coffee wanting lunch and had planned (with herself) for a lunch. but remember this is the same girl who at three weeks after leaving me took me for a five hour "non" date and then said im still deciding.

she could very easily send all kinds of signals and back it up with nothing. not to be harsh but just remembering she could be dating others or planning others and just happily trying to keep me in her life.

so lets play with that shall we? asi pull away and imply the threat that what she has taken for granted may be lost what that makes her feel.

for now the implication is in only not suggesting things to do, taking coffee over lunch, returning a call a little later. but as time goes on it will be more until she either climbs on or steps off.

a fine balance. but yeah its about making her feelings of wanting a friend secured threatened. so that if there is more that will trigger like mad if she senses i am going elsewhere.

i have started contact with the girl i was dating when i met her. i actually dated them both for a while, then decided on her. funny.

acutally daisy it isnt.

just change how you do things, and do different things.

if they expect you to call on a certain day, dont. if they are nice be a little aloof, if they are nasty be nice.

if you plan to get together, sugest a new place.

if there is limited contact. make him wait a day (or two) to get back. if he is still deciding then do no contact if you want him back. let him call but act indifferently to his feelings about you (if you can). at first we feel exposed that of course they know we care.

just like they changed on us seemingly on a dime, we can seem to do the same. just be tough and dont talk about it (and for me thats been hard, but the longer i do it the better i get).

perceived loss of something taken for granted drives them crazy. wants time to decide? fine. but begin to let him think a little whats up with you. but do not tell him you are pulling away (no feelings)

you know GeeCee you amaze me.

in the middle of your pain, and distraction. you still take time to give from the heart. and thats how i know you will be ok.

if you are wondering where you will find the reserves to love again. thats where, your compassion in the face of loss is a strength that will get you through. M is a fool.

i know that becuase we feel that deeply, we hurt so badly. thats the downside, the upside is we can experience things others cant and share at a level others dont know how.

"never give more than you can handle giving away freely" r

Ok so if you dont know the story ill tell it in brief. the uspshot here is "am i being taken for granted and truned into a friend? or is she coming around?"

3 years together, best friends - first year lots of pasison and fun and and. you would think we would be married. she asks me to move in. i say too soon. she shuts down sexually over time. less interest. my business fails money becomes horrible. but still we have a good time. but i get frustrated about sex. just before she leaves she asks me to move in again. i say no, this time becuase i am ashamed of my financial situation.

ok so she leaves saying she needs time to decide if we are friends or more.

its now two and half almost three months later, and a week hasnt gone by where dont have contact of some sort. i did no contact with her until she came back with her answer: "lets go on some dates and see, you have changed so much, but the cards are stacked against you, i see you more as a friend"

and i have changed: gotten stable job, lost weight, getting out more, doing cheap things (big win there), trying to quit smoking (her number one), being more accepting and appreciative.

during this time neither of us has dated. we have played very fair and with integrity for the most part, absolutely no nastiness. She hates confrontation which may be what this is all about.

it may also be she is watching to see if the changes are for real.

there has been no physical contact period in three months. that might be caution or game of "friends".

i went to her sons play saturday, and when i left i got a peck on the cheek and a "thanks for coming." this had included dinner with the 3 of us (about five hours total) thanks for coming?

i have told her (when she suggested dates) that if she takes me for granted and tries to turn me into a friend she may lose me as friend becuase of the disregard for my feelings.

i am now doing a pull away and no longer suggesting dates. i am waiting for her to.

so she calls for lunch today, i say well i can do short coffee. for the first time she seems confused some. i am not stroking or showing a lot of attention like other times, im intentionally witholding, being nice, but not overly, and not suggesting anything.

i am now coming up on a key weekend. there has been enough contact that a real date on a weekend night chosen by her would be a fairly clear step over the line for her (or not). but she may be making contact now to make sure she isnt pinned down this weekend (i know, its my fears). I am building plans for not to be safe.

during coffee today she asked about another ex i have restablished contact with. this is an ex (married now) who i have a very strong bond with. a friend of hers asked if i thought she (the ex) and i could be friends like that. that bothered me, hopeful? or jealous?

she is not expressive, but me distancing might just pull her in. hey, i hate the game but respect has to be restored, i put my heart on the line. told her i would marry and she is treating me like a really good buddy.

she has reasons to doubt, she had said during the break "will the changes last beyond things going back to normal?" it was not a direct question, it was about changes in general.

So thats the big question here: is she playing at keeping me as a buddy while she figures out what next? or is there something here? i know thats a tough quesiton.

so i went into this week planing to pull away some and she is already calling. should i normalise things by calling her to say hi? or just let her sit for some time wondering if i am doing other things now?

bear in mind i am reaching my limit on this, i am getting ready to let go. which is a good place to work from either way.

Thanks GeeCee.

like Dikaia i have to careful how much i am here during the day, which means i cant connect with you as much

i would call where i am as cautiously optimistic. she asked about an old ex who is married and has been a friend up until a real screw up last year. this ex now friend and i have always been very close, she is married.

but the new ex wanted to know if i had talked to her again. i have to read that both ways. she wants to know if she can be a friend like (the other and i have an incredibly strong bond) or something else.

i will not read into much these days. the actions will have to begin a natural flow now. i have to let go enough again to move in the right directions. but yes she was excited to see me, she wanted to do lunch. but we have been here before and the signals werent what i thought.

The five hour non date three weeks after break up, with dinner at nice resrautrant, the works. and the... oh im still deciding.

so i will act accordingly. again the milestone is that she steps up with a weekend date that is her idea. i will be congenial and friendly on the phone, but short and sweet.

but she was by no means standoffish. again the balance must swing a little this way for me to feel comfortable. the other part is that i make myself comfortable with DA DA DAH! self mastery, as a friend would say, Rich got game.

im looking forward to my seduction idea, i oringally posted it then realised maybe not good idea here. it allows for to actually move one little step at a time, knowing that she is stepping into a mystery.