charley

were smiling a bit, looking mischievious, and had a pen in your mouth? I thought you were very beautiful in that picture. I like your smile and would like to see more of it.

until marriage. Whatever she wants. I hope she's willing to wait at least 3 or 4 months because I don't want to do it before then myself. One lady in another thread posted that she has a 4 month rule for sex because she says it takes 3 to 4 months to get to know someone. Good rule. However, my personal and business relationships have shown me that it takes 4 months to begin to know someone. It takes 3 years to fully know someone. With my friends and business relationships alike, I've found that many dissolve around 2.5 years. Those that last more than 3 years have been very long term and will probaby last until I retire or die, depending on type of relationship. Also, you can never fully know someone who is not fully emotionally mature because they keep changing all the time. Their personality doesn't stabilize until mature, IMO. Most women are emotionally mature around age 24 to 25. Most men around 30 to 32. However, there are exceptions. Some people mature faster, others slower, some never mature. These are my experiences in business and my personal life. These are my experiences. Yours may vary. I'm only giving my opinion and experiences about relationships in general. ============================================================================= Oh ya. He cannot contol his desires, but he can control his behavior, if he has no other choice. That may require him to rub one out, or at his age several out. However, then he should be under control again (for a while). It's his problem, not yours.

OK. Good luck.

doubtful and naive. No offense intended. She obviously likes you. However, by this time she is probably having doubts that you like her in return. As a shy guy (in face to face encounters) I've had this same experience many times. She may have given up because she thinks you don't have those feelings back. I'm to shy to ask women out, but I do manage to flirt back some, in some cases anyway. If I muster the courage to politely flirt back a little, then they know I am interested in return. You seem more shy than I am. You are more than a little shy. You are a lot shy. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just how things are. You can still succeed. My suggestion: to tell her that you like her, but are shy. This because it's relatively safe, IMO. I've done this successfully a time or two myself. I've also been turned down (in a kind way) while using that approach. The idea is that she'll know you like her, but also know you're shy, which will explain your prior behavior and future behavior. Then she can be patient with you while she takes the lead. The worst thing that I could foresee happening is that she turns out to not be interested after all. If this is the case, she will probably be very kind in turning you down because you were polite to her and also because she'll know you are shy. Most women are kinder to shy men when they turn them down then they are to aggressive men. So my advice to say, "I like you, but I'm shy." is fairly safe advice. It might also get you the girlfriend of your dreams. If not, then I think she'll still be friends with you the same as always. Everything I said above is a "probably" based on my experiences. I don't make guarantees about anything. There are no guarantees in life. However, I think your risk is small, if you ask her right. It's time to stop thinking and start doing. Just take the little step I suggested. It's only a tiny step, but it may work wonders for you. If you have the courage to try, you have the chance to succeed. Good luck.

Nice guys don't talk or act that way. He was being disrespectful to you and his "friend". In fact, I don't think he was treating the guy like a friend at all, IMO. That was very unacceptable behavior. However, you don't have to care because the one guy is married and other other is your ex. So forget about it and move on. Be glad you're not with the ex anymore. Lucky you.

I'm not making any promises that I'm right about anything I said. I'm only giving my opinions. i.e. - best guesses. However, I think she likes you, but if you never flirted back, perhaps she gave up. Perhaps she thinks you don't like her that way. You do want her don't you? She doesn't know that, if you turned shy on her. Even if she says, "No thanks", she won't be angry, if you ask her in a polite, sincere way. Perhaps the best thing is honesty. Tell her, "I like you, but I'm shy." Just say that and nothing else. Then wait for her to speak. Unless I miss my guess, she'll take it from there and all you have to do is cooperate a bit. I was also a skinny guy (in a weight room with muscular guys). She preferred me. Eventually, I started getting muscular from lifting with her. She still preferred me. I think mainly because of how I treated her. Many women don't care about muscles or skinny. Some actually prefer skinny men. I'd say she either likes your build, or doesn't care about it and likes your personality. Either way, you apparently look fine to her. It's also possible that her flirting was just harmless fun with no intent. That's not uncommon in women in late 20s and up because many of them are confident and feeling it. No harm in that. There's still no harm in asking her in a polite way, IMO. She's not likely to get upset because she's obviously a confident woman and it's a compliment to her to be asked (whether she's interested or not). Younger women are prone to freaking out over things. I've found that women her age are usually calm(er) about things. Perhaps I should not give advice at all. Just take my experience at face value and learn anything you can from it. I can't tell you what to do. What do I know? I'm shy (in face to face encounters) and just let the woman ask me out, which happens occasionally. Perhaps it's best that you get advice from women, especially women around her age. Best of luck, Charley =========================================================================== P.S. - Normally I read people's posts thoroughly (every word). However, your posts are a bit long. I only skimmed your highlights and main ideas. It's possible I could have missed some details.

then I couldn't take it any more. From the first half that I did read, my first thought it is "What does this woman have to do to get your attention?!?!" Snap out of it dude! OK. Got that out of my system. I very much relate to your story because when I was 23 I was weight lifting in the college gym... There was a very attractive woman in her 30s there. She was wearing spandex top and bottom. That's more than a young guy can handle seeing, if you know what I mean. Normally, I'd be to shy to look, but she was looking the other direction while stretching (doing the splits, gulp). Apparently she has eyes in the back of her head because she got up came straight over to me (I'm now looking other way as casually as possible) and tells me very angrily not to look at her again. She says she hates when guys do that. I meekly apologize and I'm humiliated in front of everyone. A few months later she needs a bench press spotter and I'm the only one in the room at the time. I think she hates me, but I don't want to let her get hurt for lack of a spotter (she's stalling out). So I offer to help. She declines. Then I told her that I insist because I'd feel really bad if she got hurt. She accepts. Then we become friends and weight lifting partners for several months. I find out she is a 3rd degree black belt in Karate and womens' state middle weight 3rd place in full contact Karate. i.e. - number two contender in an unnamed state. Yipes! She started doing all sorts of flirty things just like you describe. It started innocently with mutual backrubs (clothes on) because we were sore from lifting. Well, I was sore. She said she was. That broke the touch barrier. After that I was comfortable with backrubs and hugs. All seem non-sexual to me and I was afraid to have a sexual thought about her because I didn't want her getting angry like when we first met. However, she started patting my butt while hugging me. Sound familiar? I remember thinking, "What's that about?" She used to get erect nipples in her spandex top when I was around. I couldn't help noticing while being her spotter and such. Normally, not even I could be this dense about a woman, but I wasn't sure since she'd got mad just for looking when we'd first met. Also, I was a virgin so I was also clueless for that reason too. She kept escalating the flirting and touching until she finally said to me, "Can't you tell I want you?" Actually, no I couldn't tell since I'd been forbidden to look at her when we first met. However, we ended up dating for quite a long time. She was the best girlfriend I've ever had. She was rather aggressive, but in a nice way. Sounds much like the woman you describe, except your age-gap is less. In my limited experience, the athletic babes are aggressive, especially if in their late 20s or anywhere in their 30s. Throw in the ability to break boards with her hands and feet and she's now hypersexually aggressive. She ought to be a perfect match for a young, athletic guy your age. ;-) If you keep acting shy about it, she'll probably ask you out eventually, or maybe not. Why don't you ask her? Are you that shy? If so, not to worry because I'll bet she asks you eventually. If you ask her, I'll bet you she'll say "Yes. What took you so long?" or maybe I'm wrong and she'll give you the worst beating of your life. Just kidding. Even if she says no thanks, she won't be angry, if you ask her in a polite, gentlemanly way.

Everyone's posts I read before mine are all wise and good. I think the other people who posted before me are all giving many different types of excellent advice. All worth considering. Possibly all correct too. Particulary about men beginning to mature at around 27 or 28. They don't finish emotionally maturing until between 30 and 35, in most cases, in my experience. However, there is also a cultural aspect that no one mentioned. Perhaps no one thought of it? Perhaps no one dared to mention it? Lilu: You live in NJ. Right? I can't recall having any business dealings with anyone from NJ, but I have with people in NYC. Surely the two are similar in culture? I'm in WA State. The men in WA and OR don't have half the macho, "in your face" attitude that I've commonly experienced with many NY men and even some women too. This is cultural. Where I'm from, that macho attitude is rare, unless we get really PO'd about something. In my business dealings with New Yorkers, some of them have been nice, but many were pushing me around and bullying me until I went a little postal and returned their attitude. If my business experiences are any indication, that macho aggressive attitude is common in your area (Northeast). It's much less common in the Pacific Northwest. In fact, I think it's less common in most of the USA. The two places I've often encountered the macho attitude (tough shell) are the Northeast and California. I don't think that in the rest of the country most men act like that (as much or as often). Northwest, Midwest, and Southwest men seem good and easy going guys to deal with, IME. I don't know anything about the Southeast so I can't comment there. If I'm going to have to do business with someone in the Northeast or California, I've learned to mentally prepare myself ahead of time to be tougher and not take much crap. I start out nice and hope they will be too, but often they aren't and then I'm already mentally prepared to be aggressive in return. Those are my business experiences. Since you live where you do, you are in a sea of macho attitude. If they weren't macho, they'd get picked on by all the other @ssholes. So they have to act tough to survive there. It isn't like that where I live. It isn't like that in most of the USA. If a guy acted like that in my town, he'd be known as the town idiot. Not a cool guy at all, but an idiot. Yes, we do have guys who act like that here, but they are a small minority and not respected. So I think much of your problem is the culture in your area does not suit what you want in a man. If you want a sweet, sensitive man, you will have a hard time finding him in the sea of macho B.S. that is the Northeast. Sorry. Lilu: The differences you've observed in my attitude and behavior are only half due to my unique personality, the other half are cultural things shared by many of the men in my area. Indeed shared by many men outside your area. I'm quite sure there are millions of nice, sweet guys in the USA. That's my optimistic view. Let's be pessimistic for a moment: There are at least several hundred thousand nice, sweet men in the USA. Also, I've seen your photo. You are a very beautiful woman. Beauty in a woman is a blessing and a curse. Why? Because beautiful women attract a lot of jerks and creeps. They especially attract aggressive men. Many nice guys are also shy guys and won't approach a beautiful woman. The macho, aggressive guys are not shy and they will hit on you. That is one reason (among others) why you need to take control of your situation as others have already indicated. The guy hitting on you may be the worst guy around. So you choose your guy and approach him. He might be shy. So be prepared for that. Of course, advice is easier given than followed. I know it's tough. You might actually do better if less attractive. I knew one woman who intentionally toned down her looks and beauty for this very reason. She could always turn it back up anytime she wanted. Just a thought. Why aren't you meeting these nice guys, if they are as abundant as I think they are? I think it may be a combination of all the reasons that everyone has stated in prior posts and things in my post. Does this help? ======================================================= OK. Now I'm expecting a bunch of flames from macho type guys from CA and all over the East Coast. Fine. Whatever. If any macho men in CA or Northeast don't like what I've said, then start acting nicer to people. Yes, of course there are some sweet, nice men everywhere, but the ratio of nice guys to tough guys (and wannabe tough guys) varies by region and culture. She specifically said she wants a sweet guy. That's almost the opposite of macho. My brother-in-law is both (sweet to my sister and macho to the world), but he's rare. Generally you get one quality or the other, but not both in the same man. However, we should never believe to much in generalities and stereotypes because it really does depend upon the individual. There are good and bad men everywhere.

I'd tell the current batch of friends to choose between you and him. Approach each of them privately, one at a time. Maybe you'll keep one or two or more. Anyone who doesn't choose you is a permanent write-off. Also, start making new friends who aren't associated with the jerk. That's a good start. This guy has attacker written all over him. thereforeeee, read the below. Buy two medium size cans of pepper spray, just in case. The small ones are not big enough and don't have enough in them. The larger ones are to difficult to carry and conceal. Go to your local gun store and buy the pepper spray there. That's where it's sold in my town. I think all gun stores carry pepper spray as a non lethal alternative. Use one can to practice shooting at a face size-height target. Then carry the second one in your pocket, not in your purse. The first thing an attacker would likely do is take your purse. I'm a nice guy, but even I've been hit with a purse before (by mean woman). Any attacking guy is going to take your purse to disarm you. i.e. - all men know a purse is a potential club. So having the pepper spray in your pocket is very important, if he grabs your purse. I just recently bought two cans of pepper spray for my sister's friend. Her wacko husband and she are separated and getting divorced. He is a dangerous nut. My sister and other friends of this lady helped her move out. While helping her move out they stole his gun (that he used to make threats) and they threw it away. He doesn't own any others. Haha. If you hadn't left the guy, he'd be beating you by now. You did right to get away from him when you did. He still has the potential to attack you. If you ever have to get a restraining order or anything like that in the future, you will not be able to hangout where he hangs out anyway, and he'll have to stay away from you too. So you wouldn't be able to share friends. So I recommend you start separating your life from his now, as much as possible. Beyond that, I'd recommend you talk to your father, if you haven't already. At the very least he'll have good advice. P.S. - See if they have any women's self defense classes in your area. Women's shelters also have excellent advice. I understand things haven't gone that far yet, but advice is always excellent to have before you need it. Charley P.S. - the practicing ahead of time with the one can of pepper spray is crucial. You'd be surprised how many people shoot themselves. I made my sister practice with one of two cans I bought her. She missed the target the first several tries, but then got better. Don't shoot into the wind. My sister did that once and it blew back in my face and hers. This is why practice is crucial. The second can is for carrying.

Hi. RedQueen. What a beautiful, insightful post you've made. In fact, I think I even understand myself better now. Yes intimidation is a factor in attraction. Why else would I turn shy only around women I'm strongly attacted to? As for whether that makes a person go forward or run away, that depends on the person and the strength of the attraction-intimidation. In my struggle with shyness in these situations, what I'm struggling to do when I try to overcome my shyness, is that I'm struggling to follow the attraction and not run away. An ongoing struggle. My efforts at practicing saying "Hi" and talking to attractive women in store, library, on sidewalk, or wherever, are my mental excercises to try to toughen up so I won't get to shy and lose out on my next opportunity with a wonderful woman. In the past I've done many shy things I kick myself for. I've had really wonderful women give me their phone numbers without my asking for it (when they realized I would never initiate). I got nervous and never called them. Other times I did call, but those were the women I was only moderately attracted to. The ones I was strongly attracted to just intimidated me to much. I'm not just talking about strength of physical attraction here either. I'm also talking about brains, talent, personality, looks, etc. All are elements of attraction and intimidation for me. I might never be aggressive enough to approach a woman without substantial encouragement from her, but I am sure that I can learn to cooperate more easily and more often when they're wanting me. So yes. You are absolutely correct about attraction and intimidation going together like yin and yang. However, some kindness, outgoing behavior, and patient persistance from the lady does much to reduce my shyness. This is why I like kind, extrovert women. We are compatible. I think I finally understand myself better. Thanks a bunch! FYI - for anyone who doesn't know this, I'm obviously not shy in the written word, but I'm a part time writer as one of my job duties. I get a lot of writing practice and it's not the same as being face to face with an attractive woman. I'm not defining attractive as looks, but as the sum of all parts.

I should have said medium size boobs instead of saying C cup. You're probably right about their inability to know a woman's bra size. However, they think they know. I have boob-guy friends and they all think they know bra sizes. Maybe they do know. They've stared at boobs a lot and I assume they're removed a few bras in their day. However, after reading your post, I now assume that they really mean medium size boobs relative to the woman's body size when they say C cup. They probably don't know what they're talking about. They only know what they like. I don't know because boobs aren't my priority. FYI - One thing I like about my boob-guy friends is that we don't generally go for the same women because I'm more a face and legs guy. Low to zero competition over women is a nice quality to have in a male-male friendship.

Or they must be willing to sacrifice nice legs and/or A to get the bigger boobs. That's because as women gain weight everything gets bigger. That is why women with small to medium boobs often have the best legs and A. By the way, who ever said guys like big butts? Some like small, some medium, some large. I'm odd because I like all sizes of butt as long as firm. Same with boobs. To me personally, any size butt or boobs is excellent, if reasonably firm. Normally the women with smaller boobs have the firmer legs and butts. A guy has to prioritize what's important to him in a woman: That includes looks, personality, intelligence, etc in whatever order works for him. I do think some physical attraction is necessary. In the distant past, I've dated a couple women just because they were nice, I liked them, and they had a thing for me. However, with the two women I'm thinking of, I did not have a physical attraction to them. Never did. Eventually, their feelings got hurt about that. That's why I now make physical attraction one of my priorities. It's necessary for me. Without it we'd just be platonic friends. That's why I do not feel guilty about wanting a physical attraction to be there. However, what causes that physical attraction? I'm flexible about that. Some men are flexible about that while others have a specific type they prefer. However, each guys type differs substantially. I really believe there is someone for everyone.

Most men are big babies. Any size boob feeds a baby.

What I'm saying is this: Promote your personal best features. If you're flat, then display face, legs and A. Then the leg guys and the A guys will be after you. They don't care much about boobs. Very often the flatter women have the best legs and A. In additon, don't under estimate the power of your personality to attract. Confidence in yourself would greatly help this. Don't worry about your boobs. Just think about your other good features: personality, face, legs, and A. Then you'll be more confident and sexy starting from your attitude. FYI- It's a scientifically proven fact that a woman's face is the thing that is most important to physically attracting men. Research was done on men's preferences and face was tops on the list. So don't worry about the boobs so much. No I don't remember the name of the study. I watched it on educational T.V. a few years back.

Some guys are really into boobs. Others into legs and A. Some into face. Personally, I like a nice face, and nice legs. I also like a nice A, but I don't worry about that because if the legs are nice, then the A is automatically good, IMO. Breasts? For me that's a nice bonus, but not a requirement for attraction. Boobs are just icing on the cake for me, but not the cake. i.e. - if a woman has a nice face and legs I'm physically attracted and boobs don't matter much. That's me. i.e. - I'm boobs optional. On the other hand, the boob guys I know (I personally know several) have to have medium or bigger boobs to be physically attracted. Another thing, I personally think any size boob is attractive, if reasonably firm and perky. Size is not an issue for me. That's me, quality over quantity. Other guys vary. Some guys like skinny women, some like shapely, some like fat (true). I like skinny and/or shapely. A friend of mine likes them fat, but his women only look fat to me. To him they look hot. Guys vary a lot in what they like. My point is this: Ladies: Don't try to change yourself to fit what some man wants. Find a man who thinks you're hot as you are. Exercise and self improvement are good for you (of course), but it's also good to find someone who likes you as you are. FYI - I don't consider a boob job to be self improvement. I consider it to be a foolish, expensive, painful, health risk. I'd rather have a woman with real small ones than fake big ones. Excercise is true self improvement and is healthy. Any person is more attractive when physically fit. Also, I've noticed that some ladies get really upset that looks matter to guys. Actually, they don't matter to all guys. Some don't care. However, most of us do, but we each like something different because we vary in our tastes. Also, men who are attracted to certain qualities, whatever they may be, should not have to be ashamed of that. It's natural to have personal preferenes. Both men and women have preferences. However, looks are only one part of many things that make up attraction in a man's mind. Much of it is personality. I like kind, outgoing women. Most guys care about personality. Intelligence also matters to some men. I prefer smart women, some men don't. Some don't care one way or the other about brains. Men vary a lot. Preferences are not necessarily requirements. Charley

I'm going to say some things in closing. Then I don't have more to say about this thread. NottoGreen does make a valid point. Crissy, the age difference is large for your young age. NottoGreen is right about that. Does that matter? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. The age-gap in your situation doesn't matter, if you don't want to marry and have children with this man. However, what if you do? What then? Would he want to marry? Would he want to have kids? Can he have kids? You need to think about these things. If you still want to proceed, then you need to talk to him about these issues. Do you just want a casual relationship with this guy with no strings attached? If so, then I don't think the age thing matters. What leaves me without more specific advice is your very young age and the rather large age difference. It would be different, if you were a few years older. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying this is outside my area of knowledge. Each person has their own comfort zone with age difference. I can't tell you or anyone else that they should adopt my comfort zone. I can only say that I'm 38 and I leave the women under 24 alone. Well maybe a 23 year old, if she asked me. That's me. I start feeling guilty if they're under 24, but I suppose 23 is close enough for me. Those are my comfort zones. Each person has their own comfort zone and that's fine as long as they respect other people's right to choose their own personal comfort zone. I really don't know what's right for you, but I know this much: You'd better give some serious thought to if you want marriage and kids with him. Find out what he wants, if you get with him. Also, think about this: You are young. You will grow and change. You might change your mind about what you want from life and your relationship. He won't likely change much. Please think about that. This is one important reason why I limit myself to women 24 and up. They have a good idea what they want from life and from me. The reason I like women 24 and up is because I believe they are (probably) emotionally mature at 24 or 25. You're younger than that. On the other hand, individuals vary. Some women mature faster, or slower. Same with men. If you were 24 or 25 I would say go for it. At your age, I don't know. Ask the ladies for advice. They know better than I do. I did notice that all the ladies posts seem to be encouraging you, or at least open to your carefully exploring it. I'm leaning towards carefully exploring it. It's up to you of course. I have no intention of telling you what to do. I don't know what you should do. I just want to encourage you to think things through about the issues I described (what do you want, what does he want, etc) and then talk to him about those things before getting attached or having sex. Also, I suggest you get more advice from the ladies. I think they are more qualified to be helpful in this area than NotToGreen or myself. The ladies who have experience with these issues are wise and can advise you. On the other hand, if I was a 20 year old guy (again) and an older woman liked me, I would want to try it. I did that when I was 23 with a 36 year old woman and it was great. Good memories. You're not 23 yet, but how much difference can 2 years make? Heck I don't know what you should do. One very important question is this: Is he a nice guy? Will he treat you good? That is the most important issue. Please ask other ladies for more advice, if you need more. Good luck Chrissy.

Well, I agree with you on some issues. I'm going to whittle down the quote of what all you said to only the parts I want to address: Yes. I agree totally. Age-gap does not preclude abuse. You are correct. Likewise, similar-age does not preclude abuse either. Some older guys are creeps that go after younger women. That was one of the first things I said in my first post. We agree on this. Likewise some younger guys are creeps too. I think we're in agreement. Any middle age woman, and some younger ones to, know that creepy men come in all ages. Nice men come in all ages too. Yes I agree again, except I'd say "regardless of race, sex, or age there are no guarantees of anything". i.e. - they don't preclude abuse, nor do they cause it. In fact, I said something to this effect in my disclaimer at the end of my first post. We are in agreement.

I'm was talking about the world in general, not specifically Asia. Age-gap is common over much of the world. It does not have a link to women abuse either. It's cooincidental if/when both things occur in the same geographic area. Abuse (and also kindness) happen everywhere in the world, regardless of age-gap. Abuse is not an age-gap or an Asian issue. Abuse is a separate issue that is not (and should not) be seen as tied to age-gap. Also, I know some very strong, smart, capable Asian women. I think you're applying a hurtful, negative stereotype to some really good people who are in age-gap relationships. An age-gap relationship has the potential to be as good (or bad) as any other relationships. I'm very sorry to hear about your grandmother. However, the complaint you describe has to do with a former lack of freedom of choice for her to say no. At least that's what it sounds like to me. That's not an age-gap issue. I'm all in favor of women having the right to say no. I'm sure we all agree on that. That is a different, but very important issue that the courts have resolved years ago. I'm all in support of womens' right to say no or yes, or whatever they want. I respect women's rights, including their right to be with who they want. I also think they have a right to be with who they want and that's what this thread is all about, IMO: People's right of choice without being unfairly judged. I really don't think we disagree, except that I want to avoid stereotypes. P.S. - I don't disagree or agree with your opinion to Chrissy considering her age and the years age-gap. I simply chose not to comment on it because I don't know what's best for her. I can only try to get her to think about the issues without telling her what to do. In that way, I'm helpful while respecting her right to choose. It's up to her and he might satisfy her fine. He might not. The fact is that we don't know. Personally, I try to keep my age-gaps limited to something practical that I think would work for marriage, but that's me as the older person because I want to get married someday. I wouldn't push that on someone else. However, I respect that you're trying to help her. I think you're a good guy. I see that you mean well and want to help Chrissy. I have no complaints with you. Except perhaps one. You seem to be trying to link women-abuse to age-gap. I do not think there is such a link at all. There are many abused women in the USA who are married to men within 5 years of their own age. I don't think there is any link between age and abuse. There are good and bad people of all ages, which is one of the first things I pointed out in my first post. I'm sure you mean well and I respect that. We agree on some things. However, I don't like stereotypes. Age-gap relationships are not inherantly better or worse than same-age relationships. It depends on the individuals involved. The important things is that women (and men) should be able to choose who they want to be with.

I have observed that whether in my home town, at this forum, or anywhere; there are always a minority of people who object to age-gap relationships as being unnatural. I think that attitude is intolerant, but more so it's incorrect. I'd like to explain myself below. This is not directed at any individual in this thread. It's for the group. ================================================================================ Age-Gap marriages were the norm throughout most of history, until the very recent past. My grandparents are from a generation that thinks it's perfectly normal. It worked fine for them and all generations before. Same and simlilar age relationships became the norm starting with my parents generation, the "baby boomer generation". Late 1950s for my dad, early 1960s for my mom. However, age-gap relationships are still common among their age group too, though not the norm. Note: The baby boomers are the parents of today's middle age people. Baby boomers are the grandparents of today's young people. Currently I think that age-gap is becoming more common again. Some ignorant people would say that's a fad, or a rebellion of young people being taken advantage of by older people. Not so at all. To say that is ignorant of history and nature. Age-gap relationships are perfectly natural as clearly demonstrated throughout history by the fact that it was the norm until recently. The young people today aren't rebelling. Many of them are just choosing to go back to what has been normal throughout almost all of history. i.e. - in this area they are sometimes perceived as rebelling against their parents standards. In reality, they are going back to what was normal for their great grandparents. It was my parents and their generation who strongly rebelled in the 1960s, not the young people today. That's a fact. They didn't call the 60s turbulent for nothing. The reemergence of age-gap relationships being more common is actually going back to how things were before my parents generation rebelled. i.e. - age gap is going back to how things were normal before about 1955 or maybe 1948. Somewhere in that time frame things started changing. Before WWII and going back thoughout all history, age-gap relationships were considered perfectly normal and common. In fact, they were far more common than same age relationships. Through most of history, same age relationships would have been considered abnormal and almost unheard of. I've been talking about USA culture so far. However, let me interject this here. In most of the rest of the world, age-gap is still the norm. They like it that way. Same-age would be abnormal in much of the world. So don't let anyone make you feel guilty or bad about an age-gap relationship. The same-age people are actually the oddballs. In fact, if you look at the entire timeline of history, same age relationships would be very abnormal in a historical context. Same-age is even abnormal in most of the world today. It's just one or two generations of the USA that think same-age is normal. The less tolerant among them think that age-gap is abnormal. How ignorant they are of history and the rest of the world. They are free to like what they like, but are in no position to say what's "normal". Regardless of history, society, present day, and whatever else, each person has the right to be attracted to who they want. Same age or otherwise. Also, age difference up to 10 years is very normal even in USA today. Up to 20 years is common in USA today. I got these stats from a Google search. That's largely because women mature faster than men. It's natural to be attracted to anywhere from 5 to 10 years difference and often more. In any case, it's no one's business but yours and your partners. Do what's best for you two. My neighbor lady is in her 80s and a good friend. She said her husband was 12 years her senior. She married at age 18. He was 30. She says that was common back then. She loved him and people weren't concerned with age difference back then. I asked her if she had any regrets. She said no, except that she misses him. She said she had a wonderful marriage and she'd marry him all over again, if she could. Then she goes on an on about him. She loves him still. My grandma and great grandma would told similar stories when they were alive. And by the way, my grandma died before my grandfather even though she was younger. Don't assume that men always die first. He was older than her and he was a widower for 15 years. So what's the big deal about age-gap relationships? Be with someone your own age if you want. Be with someone older or younger, if you want. Don't let any 3rd party tell you what to do. Don't let some ignorant or intolerant person tell you what's "normal". If they try that, then you can honestly and correctly tell them that age-gap is normal if you look beyond one generation of the USA. For thousands of generations of people thoughout history, age-gap is the norm. It's still the norm in most of the world today. The only exception where same-age is the norm is one single generation of USA citizens, my parents generation. Baby Boomers. The only generation, in the only country in the world, to think that same-age is normal. I don't mind that they think that's normal. What I don't like is when they get judgemental and think that age-gap is abnormal. It's not. The babyboomers can think what they want, if they are willing to tolerate others, live and let live, etc. However, when they get judgemental, I can easily point to history and the rest of the world and show what's really normal. Age-gap is actually the norm. FYI - although baby boomers, my parents are pretty open minded, especially my dad. Though advice can be helpful, in the end you must follow your heart. Just consider certain issues like: Do you want to get married? Have kids? What about the other person? What do they want? What can they do? Can they still have kids? Talk about these things before you get emotionally attached. Then do what's best for you. Be with the person, if you want each other. Above all, be true to yourself while being tolerant of others. ============================================================================= It is not my intention to bash same-age relationships. Those can be good too. I'm only saying the age-gap relationships are equally valid and can also be good. I don't intend to bash the baby boomer generation. They have many excellent qualities, but they do tend to be judgemental of people younger than them and older than them. i.e. - they tend to think their generation knows best about everything. This is ironic and hypocritical since the baby boomers were the biggest rebels in the history of young people (when they were young). Actually, I think the baby boomers are still rebeling. They did attain many improvements in rights for young people and for women. They should be respected for that and many other accomplishments. So why do they tend to be intolerant of age-gap relationships? I'm not sure, but I think it's because their generation objected to many previously normal things, especially related to dating. i.e. - they didn't want their parents telling them who to date. Since age-gap used to be the norm, I think that's one of the things they rebelled against. So they embraced same-age relationships as "normal" as part of their rebellion against their parents generation's values. It's OK for them to like what they like, but not to force it on the rest of us. I love my baby boomer parents, even though I don't agree with them about some things. ================================================== ============================= It should be noted that a 5 year age-gap is common for baby-boomer first marriages, up to a 20 year difference is common for their second marriages. For first marriages, they usually don't bat an eye until things go over 8 to 10 years difference. i.e. - up to an 8 year difference isn't a big deal to anyone, not even the baby boomer generation that prefers same-age relationships. For all practical purposes, up to an 8 year age difference is considered a same-age relationship, if the younger person is at least 21. This by baby boomer uptight standards. ================================================== ============================= So in closing, I want to say that if your age difference is within 8 years, don't give it a thought. If you're relationship is over 8 years age difference, only some baby boomers might disapprove. Even many of them have loosened up about age-gap. For greater age differences, the baby boomer generation (in high school in 50s and early to mid 60s) might think it's weird, but who cares? They are the only generation in history to have this age-gap hangup. You can't let them run your life. They only know what was normal for them. They have little idea what is normal throughout history. They don't know what's normal for you. P.S. - I love my parents, but disagree with my mom on age-gap issues. My dad is fine with it up to a 15 year difference. I can't run my life around them. Any age-gap debates I've had in this forum or anywhere else always occur with baby boomers. Cooincidence? I don't think so. Baby boomers are good people (generally), but they don't have the right to run my life or yours. These are my opinions and experiences. Charley

First of all, what everyone else I read is saying sounds true to me. It's really difficult for most people to find someone they click with. I have some experience with this myself. Love and/or sex is not defined by age. However, I have found that some age gap can actually make a relationship more exciting and tender for both people. Often the people involved will treat each other with extra kindness and consideration. Those are my experiences. When I was in high school I was a year young for my grade (having been skipped ahead) plus I looked young for my age. So I looked several years young for my grade. High school girls (IME) want nothing to do with dating a guy who looks several years younger than them. So no chance of a date in high school. In my early 20s, I still looked 16. From my mid to late 20s I looked 18. Not many women in their 20s want to date a guy who looks several years younger than them. I had to get to age 23 before any woman would consider me. However, at age 23 I suddenly started looking like a rather handsome 18 year old. All of a sudden I was attracting high school girls, but they were 15 to 18. Their parents would have freaked. What to do? Well, I found out that some women in their 30s, especially from 35 to 40 are attracted to a young looking guy. When I was 23 I was asked out by a 36 year old woman. I have nothing but good memories of her. I'm so glad she asked me out. I was attracted to her to, but would never have dreamed an older woman would be interested in me. At first the age difference made me a little nervous, but it was never a problem. She was always very nice to me to. All good memories. Now I'm 38, but look 30. As always, women around my own age are my friends, but don't want to date a guy who looks several years younger than them. No problem. Women always let me know what they like-want and I adapt. The gals from 24 to 30 seem to like me. Great because I like them too. They also look extra hot to me. Apparently, I look good to them too because they often initiate it. I'm learning to initiate it to as I overcome my shyness in romantic situations. Also, I've become totally comfortable with this age difference. It took a while to adjust since I was used to being the much younger person in the relationship. Age differences are only a problem, if you let it be. I think an age difference heightens the physical and emotional attraction based on my experiences. I've been on both ends of the age gap. Both are sweet, but in somewhat different ways. ======================================================== However, there are some valid warnings, which I posted in another post above.

Excellent rule Annie. However, I think even one month would send Bill on his way. I think 3 months would be more than enough for most guys. However, if I can wait 3, I can wait 4. I can wait until we're married, if necessary. Guys like Bill make it hard on the rest of us who have good intentions.

This is written for young women to help them understand and deal with older (middle age) men. However, it also applies to young men who might date an older (middle age) woman. It's really difficult for most people to find someone they click with. I have some experience with this myself. Love and/or sex are not defined by age. However, I have found that some age gap can actually make a relationship more exciting and tender for both people. Often the people involved will treat each other with extra kindness and consideration. Those are my experiences. However, you should talk to him (or her) about what he (or she) wants from the relationship before you get attached and before you consider having sex. This is because to be compatible, you both need to have similar expectations from the relationship. i.e. - eventual sex or no sex, eventual marriage or no, eventual kids or no, etc. Sometimes the older partner might not want to get married or have kids. (I do, but that's me) Now for some examples I personally prefer younger women and they prefer me. I'm 38, but look 8 years younger than I am so we don't look much different in age. I'm looking for love. Sex would be nice too, but it's love that's my priority. I can do without sex until marriage, if that's what she wants. A guy like me who's looking for love is compatible with a younger woman looking for the same. However, my friend Bill also likes younger women and he's just looking to get laid. He wants a casual relationship and sex. Really he just wants the sex. No strings, no attachments. There's nothing wrong with that IMO, if the people involved are honest about what they want and they want the same or similar things. That way no one gets hurt. I would never want to hurt any woman. I especially would never want to hurt a younger woman. I think it's a priveledge for a middle age man to have a younger woman. Along with priveledge comes an extra responsibility to be honest, caring, and not mislead or hurt her in any way. Bill on the other hand, just wants to get laid. I wouldn't mind that, if he were honest with women, but he's not. He's a user of women. He's good to other men and he's a good friend to me, but he's a total heel to women. My point is this young ladies: Older men fit into three categories, IMO. 1) The ones that are looking for love. These guys can be ideal for you, if you are looking for the same. No one appreciates a young babe more than this type of middle age man. These guys are often widowers, or never been married, or possibly divorced once. One divorce is forgivable and understandable. These type guys often want to get married again. 2) The ones who are just looking for a casual relationship (to get laid) and will be honest with you about their intentions. These guys can also be great for you, if you are looking for same. Don't expect love or a longterm relationship. These guys are often divorced one or more times. These playboys will try to impress you with flashy sports cars, etc, which isn't bad if they're honest about their intentions. 3) The jerks who are just looking for a casual relationsip (to get laid) and will be dishonest with you about their intentions. They'll tell you anything to get laid. Or they'll avoid talking about their feelings or intentions altogether (Bill) to put the subject off until after they get laid (Bill). These guys are dishonest and selfish. They'll leave you crying in your beer. These guys are often divorced one or more times. These playboys will try to impress you with flashy sports cars, etc. I read in a young ladies post in another thread that she likes nice, good hearted middle age men. She said she keeps the jerks at bay by not sleeping with a guy for 4 months as a rule. Good rule, IMO. Young Ladies The types above are aimed directly at older men in a potential relationship. Young Men: The types above also apply somewhat to older women in a potential relationship. Oh ya. Younger guys, there are middle age women in their 30s who like you. They might want a true relationship, or they might just want to use you for sex. However, I've never heard a young guy complaining about being used for sex. Except me that is. I hated that. I guess I'm a romantic. Warning - you may think you'd like to be a middle age woman's sex toy, but then fall in love with her and she leaves you broken hearted, crying in your beer, and alone. It happens. Regarding the number 3 type guys: I know these men exist at all ages and often do these things to women their own ages too. I don't like that either. However, when they do this to sweet, trusting younger women it infuriates me. Bill was just the other day asking me where he could meet some younger women and how to approach them. He'd noticed I get on well with younger ladies at work and elsewhere. I'm not telling him a thing. He leaves broken, crying, middle age women in his wake wherever he goes. I don't want to help him start hurting younger women too. He's a playboy with yacht, penthouse, etc. He's also my boss at work. However, he at least has the sense to leave the women at work alone. I consider the women at work fair game for me, but it's never a problem because I'm really nice to them and the ladies at work almost universally like me (mostly platonic friends, darn). Anyhow, watch out for guys like Bill. =============================================================== Back to your situation: You need to first decide what you want or expect from a relationship, if you hookup with him (or her). Once you figure out what you want, then you need to start some research to find out his background and intentions. i.e. - has he been married before? Widower +1, Divorced Once -1, Divorced Twice -3 (think hard), Divorced More Than Twice -10 (run for your life). Do you want to get married someday? Have kids? Is that something he (or she) wants to do? Can do? Etc and so on with questions and research. By the way, if asking him a few questions scares him off, or he won't answer them, then he was a type 3 guy and you're best off without him anyway, IMO. ON the other hand, if you only have expectations of a casual relationship and getting laid, then I guess there's no need to ask all those other questions. However, you should ask him how many sex partners he's been with in the last 10 years and if he practiced safe sex. A lady coworker friend of mine just died at age 27 from AIDS. She had sex with ONE GUY, ONE TIME when she was 17 and got AIDS. She died 10 years later (recently). That was the only time she ever had sex in her short life. True story. Also, a normal age difference in USA is 5 to 10 years. That's not a big deal at all. Up to 20 years is common. I looked up the statistics in the prior three sentences before posting this. However, that doesn't mean much. Age is less important than other issues. What is most important is what you both want and expect from a relationship and whether you will be honest with each other. Trust has to work both ways. These things have to be discussed issue by issue before sex, if you want to avoid being used. These are some things to think about for the younger people. =============================================================== For the middle age and older people, you probably already know this, but it's worth mentioning. Sometimes the younger person may break your heart. I went back and added this as a very important after thought to this original post. =============================================================== Disclaimer: The advice and opinions I've given are based on my experiences and observations, and a couple statistics that come from Google searches for info. Your experiences may vary. There are exceptions to everything in life. No one can guarantee another person's behavior. However, I believe my information will prove correct for most cases. It works for me.

ask him if he has a girlfriend. I know it's scary, but sometimes direct is best. I'm a shy guy, so I often chicken out, but sometimes I also go for it and try. I think you should just ask him. If he's single, then ask him out. Just my thought. I can't promise success, but you will get closure one way or the other. Sometimes closure is it's own reward. A year is way to long to just keep dragging on. Either ask him or forget him, IMO. That's just my opinion.

To each of your questions, the answer it that it depends on the guy. We're all individuals and each of us likes different things. ================================================ Personally I love holding hands with a woman. I don't know about other guys. i.e. - this isn't something guys sit around and discuss with each other. So I have no idea about other guys and hand holding. I only know I love it. I prefer confident women because I'm shy in romantic situaitons. I don't think two shy people belong together. However, a shy person can fit well with a more outgoing one. However, I don't have requirements for this sort of thing. These are just my opinions. What to wear on a first date? I don't know. That's up to the woman. Ask other women. However, I can tell you that from the point of view of a shy guy, I hope you won't dress to sexy because it will only make me more nervous. The sexy look can come later. That's just me though. Other guys may differ. Make up or no make up? I have no preference. However, as I shy guy, the sexier you look the more nervous I will be. I'd rather you use little makeup. The sexy look can come later. That's just me though. Other guys may differ. Do men really mind if the girl can't chug alcohol like him? I'm a guy and I can't hold much alcohol myself. I have no expectations for a woman's drinking abilities and couldn't care about that anyway. I suspect that most guys don't care. If anything, I'd think it cute if you can't hold much. However, all women I've ever been out with can hold more than me. Honestly, who cares about this? I don't think it matters.