keenan

Oh, but I can SURE make a smile mean somethin' if I want to!

Hmmm. I'm a smiler, and I'm not interested in every guy I smile at. I think you have to judge more by the length and intensity of eye contact that goes with the smile, plus any attempt to make small talk. A quick 'smile + glance' and then a look away likely just means a girl is friendly. But if the smile is slow, if she holds it while looking at you, if she holds your gaze for more than a second or two (one thousand one...) AND she glances back at you periodically (KEY), then she's probably interested. Eye contact is really a biggie. In a bar, look also for hair flipping/twirling.

While masturbating? Or instead of?

JVP, Thanks for telling your story. I don't think you're selfish, and I don't think you're a jerk. The feelings that you're experiencing are actually quite common, and it's healthy and admirable that you're trying to sort this out in a rational way rather than acting hastily, without careful thought. The thing that really jumps out at me when I read your post is that your WIFE, as a person, is being heavily conflated in your mind with both the financial and emotional stressors of your family life, and with your own disappointments about the way that your life as an individual has unfolded (and may continue to unfold). Although it's nearly impossible to separate the issues of money, children, house, lack of ideal career progress, disappointment in your own 'seizing of the moment' in your twenties, and your relationship with your wife (because they're naturally quite related), I think it would serve you well to try to dissociate, as much as possible, your relationship with the woman you married from this other constellation of woes. Unless you're able to do that, both you and your wife are going to suffer by way of comparison with ANY woman that you meet, now or in the future. A woman at work, especially one 10 years your junior, is naturally going to be free of all of those worries and relationship strains. Although I'm sure you have very real feelings for this woman as a person, it's very likely that you also have feelings for the things she represents: youth, optimism, fun, passion, career energy, and complete freedom, unfettered by family or financial burdens. When you're with her, you probably get just a bit of the taste of what it would be like to be 25 again, without all of the stresses and strains that you're coping with now. She helps you recapture your 'lost' youth (funny to think about a 35 year old losing his youth, but you're in a very grown-up world right now, and she's certainly not in the same place). In this sense, your wife is also vulnerable to meeting a younger, or more financially successful, or child-free guy who can offer her some imaginary freedom. Imagine that you could snap your fingers and magically change your wife out for another woman--perhaps this woman. Your life as you know it--your career, your kids, your financial worries--would still be there. The change of having a new PARTER might be exciting for awhile, but it probably wouldn't last. The truth is, you really can't go back and lead a carefree life right now. Even if you leave your family, and hand over the bulk of the burden of child care to your wife, you'll still be in the same place with your career (or worse, because you won't be able to move away from your kids, or take risks that you might ordinarily take because you'll have child support payments), and you'll still be a dad, and you'll still have lost your twenties. So what do you do? I don't know. I think that it probably starts with getting yourself into living circumstances that are less financially stressful, and it probably continues with you making your romance with your wife much more of a priority. Try first to recapture the intensity of your love with her: I imagine that when you were dating her, and when you first married her, you weren't having the same regrets about living with your parents until you were 29 that you're having now. It's mostly a 'hindsight regret' that is coming about because you aren't happy now. If you could be happier NOW (and by this I mean with your family), then you likely won't have as much hindsight regret. Of course you can leave. Of course you can date. But the consequences are so severe, and the pain so great, that personally I think you owe it to you, your wife, your kids, and your future, to try to separate out your stressors and tackle them individually. Just so you know where I'm coming from: I'm currently in a ten-year marriage that is on the rocks, although we're trying to work things out. My husband and are great friends, and have an enormous amount of love and respect for each other. We have no kids, and we have few financial worries. HOWEVER, we married when I was 21 and he was 22. We essentially spent our 'free decade' playing house with each other instead of dating others. This never bothered us at the time...but now I think we both feel a little stifled, a little restless. Because we don't have kids, and because money isn't a problem, we have the luxury of living apart and taking some time to see how much we miss each other, and deciding where we should go from here. It's a bit of relationship atrophy. My point is, this kind of relationship atrophy is normal when you've been with somebody for awhile, even if you care for each other deeply. It's the BACKGROUND of what you're going through. In the foreground, you're also experiencing all these other stressors and hardships, plus the really tempting reality of an office crush. I imagine that it's a heckuva package to sort through right now. But think about this stuff. Don't toss your life aside unless and until it's the best option, and one you can live with for the rest of your life.

Glad to hear this. He sounds like a good guy, and you sound like a patient and understanding woman.

Hmmm, interesting. Sounds like you two will be dancing a bit until you figure each other out. Glad you called, though! Keep us posted.

Mmmm. Sounds like a potentially good slippery slope, to me.

Yeah, I'm so sorry Ineedtotalk, but I agree with the others. Very rarely would a person explicitly say, "I'm sorry that you still miss me BECAUSE I DON'T MISS YOU. I had hoped that you were over me BECAUSE I AM OVER YOU." It's implied. And man, I know it's hard to analyze every conversation and read between every line, looking for hope. But we're giving you our objective opinions.

Ok, so I also ate some nasty chocolate ding dong things from a gas station, which I NEVER do, and also an entire package of smarties. And the graham crackers? Not one. Not two. At least 10. And I wasn't hungry for any of it. And now I feel gross. Feel like a pillow fight yet? Me neither. Off to do laundry. Good luck to you.

Ugh. I've been in the same funk for two days. I'm sitting here eating graham crackers, feeling too lazy to get up from this chair, too sorry for myself to even drive around. Pathetic. Red & Dako, we should just have a sad-person slumber party.

I've been to two gay weddings: one five years ago for two of my closest guy friends; another a few months ago for a dear female friend and her (now) wife. They were, frankly, the best two marriage ceremonies I've ever attended. It was wonderful to see the outpouring of love and support from their gathered friends and family--even family members who had flown in from other, less liberal parts of the country and for whom gayness and the whole gay marriage phenomena are slightly uncomfortable novelties to be whispered about in the hotel room the night before the ceremony. One of the luxuries of living where I do is that few people seem to bother with being in the closet (over the age of 20 or so, I guess), and few people bat an eye when gay friends discuss marriage and children. The conversations become more about *marriage* and *children* than *gay marriage* and *gay people having children*. I'm sure there are many more issues that I'm not aware of, and conversations that I'm not privy to, but I do at least know that my friends are very happily married.

Ilse's right--this was the guy who was way too friendly with you before, right? (The hugger?) He's just a young, awkward, uncertain guy who goes too far in either direction. Don't let him get you down. He DID care for you very much when you were together. He just isn't very skilled at acting normal and natural now. Try to shrug it off.

Er, I'm bad about this. I wouldn't have said it this way, but sometimes I just have long episodes of phone avoidance when I'm going through a rough time and don't feel like cracking open my heart. It's easier to send short emails just to maintain contact, keep the lines open, and then tell myself that I'll be a better person and pick up the phone soon. I'm glad to see how others perceive it; I think I'll really call my friend in NYC this weekend.

He's right, he has! LOL. Kidding. And we love him anyway.

Yeah, it may be the case that if you weren't in a RELATIONSHIP with the guy, he would talk to her. But if you think that it's only your actual physical presense that is keeping him from having sex with her right then and there, then I think the relationship is in deep trouble!!

This is the place to vent. We're all here because we felt lonely, sad, angry, depressed, and confused and were looking for something--some bit of wisdom-- to help us through. We did a Google search, found a compelling post, kept reading, and got hooked on getting and giving feedback. Needing to vent doesn't make you weak, and it doesn't make you a moaning, complaining wimp. Needing to vent means you're a strong, healthy guy with real emotions. Venting here means you're taking action, getting the poison out, and getting some perspective. It's very normal to feel what you're feeling, and I admire you for being so frank and open. Your posts undoubtedly serve as comfort and inspiration to lots of people who are reading and lurking, too shy to post their own stories. We're all here together, buddy--in the hard times and in the better times.

Dave, you ok? Have you been outside today, have you talked to people?

But his dog's pedestal is really, really high!

Yeah, if your boss' boss showed it to you, is it because s/he was giving you a warning (like, get your act together), or because s/he was trying to establish some solidarity with you, to let you know that s/he knows that you and your boss have issues and s/he's not going to view you as a slacker, automatically? Either way, DON'T bother to hash it out with your boss! Just be cool, play it straight, and wait for your boss to blow it. Sounds interesting....

Yeah, I come here to check on friends, not just to spill my sorrows. Some of the smartest and funniest people I've ever met are here on this site. We could have a helluva party, actually, and probably NOT talk about the exes for at least...oh, an hour or so. Besides, if you see somebody here, it also means they aren't dead or so depressed they can't get out of bed. Sorry to be grim, but these can be serious times.

Thanks, guys. This was great reading--very inspiring! Now Chris, go put a shirt on, man. Your shoulders are distracting me. Whew.

Actually, it's true that my husband was very persistent. We were friends long before we started dating, and then at one point he just kept asking me to do things, coming around with fun little notes and ideas and interesting things to talk about...and after awhile I looked up and realized I was hooked! He jokes about it now...that by assuming that he was already in my life, he bootstrapped himself into it. So there's a difference between using friendship and gentle persistence as a means of getting on the inside, vs. just bugging the he!l out of somebody when they are telling you to GO AWAY.

Hold onto the shoulder bars. Don't call--if she's hurting so much that she can't stand it, she'll call you. Is your phone ringing? Nope.

Hey, I got a crossword book, too! I'm horrible at them, so I got the Idiot's Guide to Crosswords...LOL! The words are things like "cat" and "dog" so it's very empowering. Have fun, curlygirl. Talk to you soon.

Oh, curylygirl...no slamming, hon. In a sense, we all live vicariously through each another here at ENA because it's SO hard to be strong in our own lives. If somebody here tells you to "just be strong, stick with NC, stop running around in circles, etc.," it's partly directed to you, and partly directed inward, toward the poster. Fact is, you gave into impulses that we ALL have, and that we all have only moderate success at coping with. Look around--a huge number of posts here are from people who have gone back to the ex for an hour, or a night, or a week...holding out hope against hope that THIS time it will work out...that THIS time, the ex will finally wake up and realize that he's been viewing it all wrong, that THIS time he'll realize how wonderful we are, and plead like crazy to get us back. (I'm in the same tippy boat, but I spill my guts in PMs more than posts.) Don't avoid ENA for fear of being judged. You've got a safety net here. Sometimes people may cringe as they watch you tumble...but that's because we know how it feels to fall. When it comes down to it, we'll catch you. We've all watched you struggle through this, and we care for you deeply. I, for one, think that you're amazing to have endured such a rough ride and to have kept on moving forward with such resilience and courage and strength. It's inspiring to see you check yourself into a facility and get the help that you need--to see you be so determined to take charge of your life. As way of saying thanks to YOU, I'm going to do something comparatively very, very trivial in importance: I'm going to wrestle myself away from my computer, take a shower, and go to work...which is something I've been avoiding for too long (the work, not the shower, lol). Thanks.